[OLD] UGr Threshold

Here is the built that I am currently testing, like I said I'm testing Strategic in the draw slot 13 and 14 (after Brainstorm, Serum and Predict). So far the card quality resulting from Strategic planning and Predict as been excellent...Don't get me wrong Mental note is quite good to but does not generate card advantage the way Predict does... Also here do not forget that red enables you to play Magma jet in order to set up your predict to further reduce the risk of randomness and generate card advantage. I know I'm currently not playing them because of the testing of SP in their usual spot. I also upped the number of daze to 4 to support SP.


3- Flooded Strand
4- Wooded Foothills
4- Volcanic
4- Tropical
1- ISland
1- Mountain
1- Forest

4- Werebear
4- Mongoose
4- Fire/Ice
4- Lightning Bolt
2- Strategic Planning
4- Predict
4- Brainstorm
4- Serum
4- FOW
4- Daze
2- Counterspell
1- Isochron
1- Fledgling

SB:
3- Pyroblast
2- Pyroclasm
2- Rolling Earthquake
3- Pithing Needle
2- Tromod Crypt
3- Naturalize

@The Marco: I like your build a lot (although I still question Stategic Planning, but I wouldn't ever tell you to play Mental Note. I just have a hard time with a 2CC Sorcery) but I've never played 4 Fire/Ice. Are they just super in your meta, or do you like them in general? I swear by Magma Jet in my Red thresh, and I feel like even a 2/2 split could make your Predicts a lot better.

Hum... Interesting... a 2/2 split, you know what I never thought about (no sarcasm), I've always thought that Fire/Ice were so good that I never tried cutting them (card versatility and advantage). But Magma Jet on a Scepter is not too shaby either especially when playing predict... I'm gonna have to try that. As far as the SP, I'm gonna test some more this weekend but so far (about 20 games against a variety of decks) I've been extremely pleased, especially when on the play and casting them turn 2 with counter back up (it does happen quite often). If on the draw I usually cut them if playing against fast deck.

Remember that the red version has 8 or more ways to deal with creatures so its not always that bad to tap out turn 2 for SP (you have 4 Daze and 4 Force of Will also to back you up if anything crazy comes up).

What are you going to do when something important hits? Ice it? Survival of the fittest, Sword of fire/ice, Jitte, and others wreck you on turn 2. Relying on Daze and Force just isn't enough.

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Originally Posted by wastedlife

What are you going to do when something important hits? Ice it? Survival of the fittest, Sword of fire/ice, Jitte, and others wreck you on turn 2. Relying on Daze and Force just isn't enough.

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2- Counterspell

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I guess he missed that part.

That and all of the card drawing and quality in the world that helps you find the counters, so ten should be plenty.

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Originally Posted by wastedlife

What are you going to do when something important hits? Ice it? Survival of the fittest, Sword of fire/ice, Jitte, and others wreck you on turn 2. Relying on Daze and Force just isn't enough.

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I get your point but I do play 2 counterspell and post side all the cards you named can be stopped by needle. I mean people play portent and serum turn 1 or 2 often.

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Originally Posted by The Marco

I get your point but I do play 2 counterspell and post side all the cards you named can be stopped by needle. I mean people play portent and serum turn 1 or 2 often.

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Yes, but those cards find Force of Will/Daze. Fire/ice and Magma jet do not. I'm a gro player myself, I know the SB has needle. But 2cc sorcerys that force you to tap out on a fundamental turn are bad. Also drop scepter, one bonus Gro/Threshold has is it has nothing to needle. Scepter is often a 2 for 1 for you're opponent, not to mention the card in Gro/Threshold is a win-more.

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Originally Posted by wastedlife

Also drop scepter, one bonus Gro/Threshold has is it has nothing to needle. Scepter is often a 2 for 1 for you're opponent, not to mention the card in Gro/Threshold is a win-more.

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Baaah but having a Scepter resolved with no Needle is soo much fun!!!:laugh: But Bryant does have a point, Needle is for the most part a 2 for 1 and it's a straight kick to the balls. Having no relevant needle targets is a definite plus, as it limits sideboarding resources against threshold. I don't play Threshold, but some solid testing and results would aid in figuring out the true usefulness of Isochron Scepter.

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Originally Posted by wastedlife

Yes, but those cards find Force of Will/Daze. Fire/ice and Magma jet do not. I'm a gro player myself, I know the SB has needle. But 2cc sorcerys that force you to tap out on a fundamental turn are bad. Also drop scepter, one bonus Gro/Threshold has is it has nothing to needle. Scepter is often a 2 for 1 for you're opponent, not to mention the card in Gro/Threshold is a win-more.

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Ok, ok I know all that about the scepter, the fact is very few deck play needle main deck and they won't board them in if they did not see my single copy of the Scepter. If I played it game one, then I usually side it out (they'll bring in their needles, which become pretty much dead cards).

As far as SP is concerned it's not a definitive, but I gotta tell you its been working wonders for me. Very rarely have I been screwed but playing it, I'm not saying everyone should play 4, but with 2 copies and by playing them carefully they make a nice addition to the deck, at least in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by The Marco

Ok, ok I know all that about the scepter, the fact is very few deck play needle main deck and they won't board them in if they did not see my single copy of the Scepter. If I played it game one, then I usually side it out (they'll bring in their needles, which become pretty much dead cards).

As far as SP is concerned it's not a definitive, but I gotta tell you its been working wonders for me. Very rarely have I been screwed but playing it, I'm not saying everyone should play 4, but with 2 copies and by playing them carefully they make a nice addition to the deck, at least in my opinion.

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A 1 of that doesn't dramatically effect the game doesn't belong in gro. Not to mention it's mana intensive, the sooner you realize this the better. What is specter better agaisnt that a 5/5, firebreather? Why have it in the deck if you're just going to SB it out? Stratigic Planning is a cantrip, correct? Can we all agree on this? Why wait until it's "Safe" or "Carefully play" a cantrip? Cantrips are meant for the eary turns in the game, to build/sculpt you're hand. If you're waiting to cast a cantrip is it really worth it when you cast it? If it was an instant it'd be better. But you should never have to wait, that is my point. A 2cc sorcery that only draws 1 card, doesn't belong in gro, neither does Scepter.

[QUOTE=wastedlife;85196]A 1 of that doesn't dramatically effect the game doesn't belong in gro. QUOTE]

Hum... Have you tried Scepter before??? How does a recurring source of damage for 2, or tapping any permanent and drawing or... you get the idea...does not affect the game dramatically. The dragon is good but easily killed (please here don't give me the so does the scepter answer...People still play more creature removal than artifact hate). If your opponent manages to resolve a large creature, Ice every turn can save your butt.

What kind of an effect do you think counterbalance will have on this deck? Maybe magma jet and portent can be added to help better deck stacking for counterbalance? Right now im testing it in the sideboard and it is a BOMB against combo. This seems especially good because we don't have mage like the white verstion. As such we obviously have a worse match against combo. So, any thoughts on the effect that counterbalance will have?

Marco, scepter is a nubbish card. It really is that simple. Bad players will see scepter as an unlimited source of amazingness and that simply isn't true. Maybe in a pure control deck like Keeper or U/w Control it's golden, but in Aggro Control? Maybe in a Zoo-esque deck, but with Counters? We've all tried scepter before. We've all played it and gotten rid of it. You would be wise to do the same.

I disagree. Scepter is pretty solid. Dragon is a beat stick, but it often means your in race mode. Scepter allows you to control smaller aggro decks (Gobs, Angel Stompy, RB) alot better. It does make you scoop that much harder vs. Pern. Deed though. Scepter is a 2x (replacing the 9th and 10th creature slot). So when people SB in Pithing needles, it becomes a pretty narrow card. Yes, the can still name your fetchlands with their extras, but them SBing it in does significantly delude their decks. Worse comes to worse, you can always Brainstorm back your scepters. I use to play 2 scepter MD and 2 Dragons SB so that I keep peopleing guessing. I just never, ever SBed in the Dragons though...
Scepter makes your gobs, Angel stompy, and slower combo match-ups alot better (imo).

Counterbalance? A friend told me it fits well in thresh. In his testing, it didn't do enough though. I never tested it... I'm interested in seeing any results anyone else might have had with the card.

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

Marco, scepter is a nubbish card. It really is that simple. Bad players will see scepter as an unlimited source of amazingness and that simply isn't true. Maybe in a pure control deck like Keeper or U/w Control it's golden, but in Aggro Control? Maybe in a Zoo-esque deck, but with Counters? We've all tried scepter before. We've all played it and gotten rid of it. You would be wise to do the same.

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Thanks "master" for your detailled explanations (sarcasm) as to why the Scepter is such a bad card. (Very subtle way of you telling me you think I'm a bad player... it hurts so much (sarcasm again)...)!

Ok some of you dislike the Scepter others think its a bomb, I'm not saying that everyone who plays Thresh should play 4 copies fo this. If you've notice, I play a single copy of the Scepter and one copy of the dragon. I'm just not that impressed with the dragon and I'm looking for alternatives. Bardo on a different forum shared its concerns with the dragon as well... My point is that the scepter is a card that not that many decks can handle pre-board, especially if backed by counters, while the dragon even if very powerfull can be dealt with with more ease. What alternatives are there to the Dragon?

Trygon Predator, Burning-Tree Shaman, Serendib Efeet, Sea Drake, or Troll Ascetic.

Those are perfect alternatives to Dragon, it just depends on your metagame. Theres probably more, but I cant seem to remember then at the moment...

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

Trygon Predator, Burning-Tree Shaman, Serendib Efeet, Sea Drake, or Troll Ascetic.

Those are perfect alternatives to Dragon, it just depends on your metagame. Theres probably more, but I carnt seem to remember then at the moment...

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I don't think those alternatives are that good. First, Trygon Predator is a 2/3 flyer which in a lot of situations don't trade with a lot of creatures in the format. I do see it as maybe a sideboard card in the deck, but can't justify playing it in the main deck. Second, Burning-Tree Shaman is a nice body in a 3/4 for 3 mana, but I feel is ability is going to be hurting you also throughout the match.

Third, Serendib Efreet is probably the best choice listed about, but I'm not a fan of a 3/4 flyer in an aggro control deck which clock is not that fast. Taking a point of damage every turn can sometimes cost you a game if you can't finish your opponent off in time. Fourth, Sea Drake is a very good creature for 3 mana, but its setback is bad news for Gro since you want lands in play in order to control the game. The other worry with the creature is at his toughness at 3 which can be easily killed by a lot of removal spells in the format.

The last choice of Troll Ascetic is decent, but I feel that the double green in its casting cost and regeneration ability is very mana instensive for the deck. I rather be playing spells rather than regenerating him every turn.

If you really dislike Fledging Dragon that much, I would remcommend just playing some more draw or library manipulation effects. 10 creatures is ideal, but 8 creatures with 12 burn spells seems like it would also work. That also puts a lot of decks on a quick clock.

I top 2 split a big Minnesota tournament today. I was debating between scepter vs. Dragon prior. I ended up playing scepter b/c it wouldn't be expected. By the end of this tournement, I realized why scepter is good. It makes the deck less vunerable to the hate cards (i.e. Crypt).

All of these reasons are why I feel like Scepter would be a better board card than maindeck. Scepter maindeck gives decks a chance to use their random maindeck hate like Pithing Needle or Disenchant, which will randomly show up in maindecks. In the White thresh mirror, you'll give them a good use for their Pithing Needles, which are otherwise mostly dead.

After game 1, people will have boarded out their artifact hate/pithing needle and/or not boarded them in. They'll bring in a lot of graveyard hate, and Scepter will give you an out against overwhelming hate. It sucks to see a sideboarded Leyline of the Void hit the board turn zero, but swinging with 1/1s, unloading a bit of burn, and finishing them off with an unexpected Scepter could be a good strategy. *Shrug*

SBing in general: I play against LftL and Slide decks and my favorite SB tech is winter orb. I dropped a winter orb on a WG LftL/Slide deck today and he just picked up his cards (there was a werebear, and a goose out though :B).

I am not sure if this version of thresh is supposed to beat those type of decks without anything special or not but I saw the match as being less than an easy win and chucked two in my SB.

Scepter debate: I keep trying to decide about scepter myself, but why aren't we just boarding in pithing needles vs. crypt,furnace, scrabbling claws, witherered wretch(there is also between 8 and 12 ways for him to die so he is a non issue) and not worrying.

I just find needle to be an answer to almost everyting that makes my life difficult (except blood moon and back to basics) so why bother with scepters when we can bring in needles and keep our game plan exactly the same. Unless they have a lot of creature kill.

BTW: I also find that reccuring wasteland is mildly problematic because I could not hit a delta or my basic island (I was brainstorming, and serum visioning away but to no avail).

I am one of the people that like the Scepter in the deck (you can look at my old list previously posted) but after much testing I found that 2 scepter are to many. I am currently playing 1/1 split between Scepter and the Dragon.
I like the idea of bringing in the Scepter from the side but don't know what to replace it with main deck...so for now i'll keep it main. Scepter is just such a bad topdeck in late game when you have no significant instants to imprint.
Also I do not agree with the argument that a one of does not have any impact, especially in Threshold, you draw so many cards that you'll see it about 50% of the games.

But I must admit that the dragon is just a better topdeck in most situations and a 5/5 flyer with counter backup is usually game.
So to me a 1/1 split is the way to go!

Hi, I've started playing this deck fairly recently, and I have a question: Why does the deck need 4 Lightning Bolt? Why not main deck Pyroclasm instead? Pyroclasm can kill Meddling Mages, Dark Confidants and Xantid Swarms; it sorts out Goblins and RGSA far better than Bolt; and it's better against Rifter, killing all Decree of Justice tokens.

Ok, Lightning bolt is a little better for the mirror because it's instant speed (at least until your opponent has threshold)... and it can burn to the head against any creatureless Combo. But that doesn't seem like a MASSIVE benefit to me.

Pyroclasm may be a dead card against some match ups but at least this deck gives you plenty of opportunity to shuffle it away or dump it in the graveyard.

Is there some important reason I'm missing why Lightning Bolt is a definate 4-of in this deck?

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Originally Posted by shteev

Hi, I've started playing this deck fairly recently, and I have a question: Why does the deck need 4 Lightning Bolt? Why not main deck Pyroclasm instead? Pyroclasm can kill Meddling Mages, Dark Confidants and Xantid Swarms; it sorts out Goblins and RGSA far better than Bolt; and it's better against Rifter, killing all Decree of Justice tokens.

Ok, Lightning bolt is a little better for the mirror because it's instant speed (at least until your opponent has threshold)... and it can burn to the head against any creatureless Combo. But that doesn't seem like a MASSIVE benefit to me.

Pyroclasm may be a dead card against some match ups but at least this deck gives you plenty of opportunity to shuffle it away or dump it in the graveyard.

Is there some important reason I'm missing why Lightning Bolt is a definate 4-of in this deck?

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Because Pyroclasm kills all your own men pre-thresh, which is really bad for you. If you could afford to kill your own men, then I would agree. You mentioned the other benefits of Bolt already.

Welcome to the Source!

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Originally Posted by SillyMetalGAT

Because Pyroclasm kills all your own men pre-thresh, which is really bad for you. If you could afford to kill your own men, then I would agree. You mentioned the other benefits of Bolt already.

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What the fuck? This is flat-out incorrect. It is rarely a good idea to play guys before you have threshold, but even if you do, you should never find it necessary to cast 'clasm while they are still small.

It isn't as if Pyroclasm isn't an absolutely amazing card in this deck. Just on its own, the card is almost enough of a reason to splash red over the other colors.

Shteev, you already hit on the reasons most people maindeck Bolt over 'clasm. Basically, it's just more generally useful, and yes, being able to Bolt folks to the head is pretty nice.

In my experience, Pyroclasm only gets sideboarded in against Goblins and other random weenie aggro decks, and then it will only supplement the Bolts, not outright replace them.

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Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely

What the fuck? This is flat-out incorrect. It is rarely a good idea to play guys before you have threshold, but even if you do, you should never find it necessary to cast 'clasm while they are still small.

It isn't as if Pyroclasm isn't an absolutely amazing card in this deck. Just on its own, the card is almost enough of a reason to splash red over the other colors.

Shteev, you already hit on the reasons most people maindeck Bolt over 'clasm. Basically, it's just more generally useful, and yes, being able to Bolt folks to the head is pretty nice.

In my experience, Pyroclasm only gets sideboarded in against Goblins and other random weenie aggro decks, and then it will only supplement the Bolts, not outright replace them.

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Quoted for truth! Pyroclasm is quite amazing but too situational in Legacy to grant its addition main over bolt...with that being said if most people in your meta play gobo then clasm might be the way to go... Also do not forget that bolt is an answer to turn one Lackey (not that it matters that much but its still needs to be considered).

Well it's actually better than Bolt against lackey in most situations, excluding the ones where they drop a Ringleader. They drop a threat off lackey and you wrath them BOTH, gaining CA.

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

Well it's actually better than Bolt against lackey in most situations, excluding the ones where they drop a Ringleader. They drop a threat off lackey and you wrath them BOTH, gaining CA.

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True but around here they drop ringleader about 60% of the time... Both are quite good one, is just more situational and should be in the SB rather then main deck unless the meta requires its main deck addition.

Personally if I had a chance I would just bolt the lackey. It slows them down a little more and makes them play out there beaters more linearly allowing you to have a little better control over the clasm, and you can probably do it a turn or 2 later that if lackey was on the board. I have found that vs. goblins once you have a couple of threshed dudes out, they are going to have an awful shitty time against you. You just burn the siege gang, sharpshooter, and pile drivers and counter the ringleader and you basically can just hang back and let your dudes munch on gobbos (i.e. lackeys, matrons, fanatics, warchiefs, tokens ... whatever)

So how do you guys deal with Tormod's Crypt. I generally find that I'm screwed Games 2 and 3. Do you always try to save Force and Counterspell for it?

If you expect Tormod's Crypt, just bring in Pithing Needle from the sideboard. I played UGr Gro to a T8 finish a week ago and didn't have much problems with Crypt in any game I played. I ran Serendib Efreet, as well, so even if they got Crypt online, I wasn't too worried. Sure, it's a pain in the ass, but you have plenty of answers and ways to play around it...

Against Goblins specifically, you should have Pithing Needle in anyway, although if they have a Vial you have to name that with your first copy.

I've recently been finding room for Stifle in my board. Not only is it one of the best answers to Crypt (since it can still be effective if you draw it after the Crypt is played), but it's also a great card to have access to, anyway. Stifle is particularly useful against Goblins and Tendrils combo decks.

Stifle can even come in against another Gro deck if you suspect they have Crypt; it being able to hit fetchlands and pitch to Force makes it much better than Needle if it turns out they boarded something else.

All that said, you can often simply play through a Crypt by using your draw spells intelligently and maintaining the cantrip engine through the midgame. If they manage to catch you without a counterspell, you do have to figure out how to make them use the Crypt, and then you have to figure out how to survive not having threshold in the short-term, but you should be able to regain threshold by chaining draw spells within a turn or two.

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Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely

Against Goblins specifically, you should have Pithing Needle in anyway, although if they have a Vial you have to name that with your first copy.

I've recently been finding room for Stifle in my board. Not only is it one of the best answers to Crypt (since it can still be effective if you draw it after the Crypt is played), but it's also a great card to have access to, anyway. Stifle is particularly useful against Goblins and Tendrils combo decks.

Stifle can even come in against another Gro deck if you suspect they have Crypt; it being able to hit fetchlands and pitch to Force makes it much better than Needle if it turns out they boarded something else.

All that said, you can often simply play through a Crypt by using your draw spells intelligently and maintaining the cantrip engine through the midgame. If they manage to catch you without a counterspell, you do have to figure out how to make them use the Crypt, and then you have to figure out how to survive not having threshold in the short-term, but you should be able to regain threshold by chaining draw spells within a turn or two.

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But it doesn't answer a Grunt across the table, which seems to be the way people are leaning these days. I won't be suprised if Goblins starts SBing it soon.

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Originally Posted by Evil Roopey

But it doesn't answer a Grunt across the table, which seems to be the way people are leaning these days. I won't be suprised if Goblins starts SBing it soon.

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QFT. Red Thresh really needs to start considering a way to answer Jotun Grunt. In my eyes, Grunt pushes White waaaay into the forefront as the best color to splash in Gro. It's double purpose (making you have to 2-for-1 it, and keeping you off thresh) is unmatched in a card from Red, and it's extremely difficult for you to race it or remove it outside of combat (and after 1-2 turns, in combat, too).

There's always Lightning Dart if the Grunt becomes too popular. ;)

Engineered Explosives takes care of him, as well... and is also useful in other matchups. In my opinion, the Explosives should be run in the sideboard anyways (didn't your TML Open build of UGw Thresh run them in the side @Nightmare? How useful were they?).

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Originally Posted by Lukas Preuss

There's always Lightning Dart if the Grunt becomes too popular. ;)

Engineered Explosives takes care of him, as well... and is also useful in other matchups. In my opinion, the Explosives should be run in the sideboard anyways (didn't your TML Open build of UGw Thresh run them in the side @Nightmare? How useful were they?).

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I ran 1 MD, none boarded. Actually, they were pretty good in the mirror, doing just that: Blowing up 2cc dudes and letting Geese get in there. It's not a bad call, but generally Red Gro has less room for metagame cards in the main (needles, explosives, etc.) than white does, since it needs more slots for removal.

Yeah, but you could run a few in the side to deal with cc2 dudes (Bears and Grunts) in the mirror... especially since you're not only running Mongeese, but also Efreets or some other cc3 or cc4 creature.

In Germany, Hidden Gibbons have been a popular sideboard card for UGr for quite some time now, as well. It is used against the mirror (as well as against Solidarity). With the Gibbons, you can easily side out Werebears, making Engineered Explosives at two really good against White Gro.

Hello everybody,

I couldn't watch this thread being stagnant for so long, so I decided to register:smile:

I was wondering why flametongue kavu didn't show up here, especially now the discussion focusses on the post-board Ugw threshold matchup. Here, this card seems awesome because it can burn a j.grunt and kill thresh'ed werebears in combat. It also has uses in other matchups, like RGSA and aggro stax (if you ever get 4 mana).

I'd say a nice 2-off in the SB.

I run 2 FTKs in my SB. They are good at killing too many random and not so random creatures. Loxodon Hierarchs, Grunts, Arrogant Wurms, Baloths, ther FTK's, mongrels (usually), and the occaisional Aquamoeba.

For Lukas Preuss and those who run Efreet and no dragons: Doesn't this create a big problem vs Ugw thres if they cast an enforcer with counterbackup? If you have a dragon, you can always drop your own fatty. Do you take this into account, by increasing the number of burn spells for example, so you can race easier?

I ran a (very small) tournament yesterday and I didn't perform really well, I became 3rd out of 8 people. (Loosing the Ugw mirror and being obliterated by raffinity.) I had 2 dragons MB but 2 is overkill or just dead in your hand, I'd run 1 at most the next time. However I get the impression that only 9 creatures is too few, so I may drop dragon altogether and try 2-3 efreet.

Another thing: serum visions vs sleight of hand
I understand that serum visions is better if you're digging for something in particular, but I think that if you have no other draw spells in hand, you'd rather play sleight. This becomes particularly relevant if you're under pressure and you need to do things NOW. What about a split between visions and sleight, like the old extended GAT builds?

Actually, when I ran the Efreet, I didn't worry too much about the UGw Gro matchup, since white Thresh is very rare in my metagame, whereas red Gro is pretty prelevant.

But yes, racing them is always an option, as well as blocking the Enforcer with your Efreet and casting a Lightning Bolt for the last points of damage. Still, Efreet might be weaker than Dragon in this particular matchup. It's a lot better against Goblins or any other deck that can cut you of RR easily, though.