In regard for the debate on tutors, how do you guys feel about Spoils of the Vault? I really think it might be the best possible option, what do you guys think?
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In regard for the debate on tutors, how do you guys feel about Spoils of the Vault? I really think it might be the best possible option, what do you guys think?
I used to run a Rolling Stones deck, and Doran didn't even exist. I played Cinder Wall, Wall of Razors, and Sunweb, among other things. Some other good options are Vine Trellis, Wall of Roots, Wall of Mulch, and Tinder Wall. I like walls that play double duty as mana producers.
Oh, and Spoils is terrible. Don't play it. This isn't balls-to-the-walls combo. At best, it's control/combo.
EDIT: Oh, and Treefolk Harbinger is good.
I think the best possible tutor then is card draw. How do you guys feel about Night's Whisper?
Hey, I just remembered that Rolling Stones #2 exists and is actually not terrible:
Wakestone Gargoyle :3::w:
Creature - Gargoyle (Dissension rare)
Defender
Flying
:1::w:: Creatures you control with defender can attack this turn as though they didn’t have defender.
3/4
Nice find Nihil. That can work really well in conjuction with Ancient Tomb and such. It also provides an additional body that can attack without Rolling Stones. I can see it as a 2-3 of in the deck.
P.S. - how do you guys feel about Cruel Tutor? It works well with Ancient Tomb and makes your cards Thoughtseize/Duress proof. It's probably the closest thing to Vampiric Tutor this format has to offer. What do you guys think?
Nihil, someone at TMD suggested the Gargoyle in conjuction with Eladamri's Call. I didn't initially realize this, but Eladamri's Call can now effectly fetch both combo peices. How cool is that, man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
What about Vine Trelis a 4/4 for 2 and produces green? Good Imo
For card draw,what about wall of mulch. It makes most of your creature base cantrip
Do we really want to be sacrificing walls though? Those are our win conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Rain
Just throwing some ideas:
- Unearth - Reanimates every creature in the deck, and cycles;
- Avoid Fate - counters topdecked StPs;
- Dense Foliage - Stops StP.
Off the top of my head, that's it.
Here is a variation of paul wall aggro but I figured I didn't need to start a new thread on it due to it's similiarities. The main difference with this deck is that it's based upon high toughness efficient creatures instead of relying on walls and rolling stones to win. Here's the list, I call it "Leech Tower" because of some new tech that I found called Alabaster Leech.
Leech Tower.DEC
Spells:38
4 Alabaster Leech
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Doran, The Seige Tower
4 Ohran Viper
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn To Tourach
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands:22
4 Forbidden Watchtower
4 Scrubland
4 Savannah
4 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:15
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Rule of Law
4 Engineered Explosives
3 Krosan Grip
To sum up the deck, here are a few clarifications.
Alabaster Leech - a 3/3 for one white mana with Doran in play. Better than Phyrexian Walker since it can not only block but can kill first turn Lackeys. I realize it makes StPs WW and Doran GBWW but to me it's really worth it since it's so cost efficient. For a fun way of looking at it, the first one I play is a Rogue Elephant, the second one I play is a Watchwolf and the third one I play is a Trained Armadon.
Forbidden Watchtower - a 5/5 manland for the activated cost of 1W with Doran in play.
Birds of Paradise - a 1/1 flyer with Doran in play.
Ohran Viper - a 3/3 for 1GG with Doran in play.
And the rest of the deck is self explanatory. I just felt like having a little fun with the creature power/toughness ratios. :wink:
For some quick facts. I chose to run Thoughtseize over Duress. I chose to run Hymns over Duress as well since it's a very underrated card right now and is much more devastasting that a feeble Duress.
I chose my creature destruction suit totally to 8. 4 Swords to Plowshares to get rid of fatties and 4 Diabolic Edict to get rid of anything an StP can't deal with.
Umezawa's Jitte is a no brainer as well and makes a mere Alabaster Leech and Birds of Paradise (with Doran) become formidable threats.
Props to the people that suggested running high toughness creatures instead of walls. I think it was Phantom that originally suggested that. Without him, this list wouldn't exist. :wink:
Let me know what you guys think of the list. Peace. :smile:
I'd replace Watchtowers with Villages I think. I'd rather have a 3/3 Trampler all the time than a 5/5 some of the time.
I've found that relying on Doran or making him special in any other way than being a 5/5 for 3cc is generally a mistake. I run Goyf/Viper/BoP because they are good cards. The fact that they get a bonus with Doran out is just that, a bonus. I've tried the deck with Wall of Roots and Harbingers and found them to be subpar compared to just running better creatures as a whole. However, Harbinger (in this format) being able fetch you a dual could be a solid choice.
I'm running this deck in Standard and it's been doing great for me. I can only imagine the power it could acheive using the Legacy card pool. I'd love to make a Legacy version, but it cost me $300 for the T2 version alone. Throw in 12 Duels and Fetches, forget about it.
I actually though that trying Doran in LEgacy would be laughable so I dismissed it altogether. Nice to see others making an attempt at it!
Don't forget about Alabaster Leech. That's the main tech I use to smash face with. Woodland Druid is good as well.
Having a answer to first turn Lacky would be the most valid point for Leech, I'll agree with you there, but you already have Thoughtseize on the play and StP on the draw. Treefolk Harbinger would be a better answer to that impending problem and not hurt you down the line when you are trying to get WW and GG (Viper) by turn 2/3.
Too many times while testing my first Doran build with a bunch of 0/X creatures I ended up attacking for 12+ then having Doran shot down durring declare blockers and my opponent saying "I'll take zero". Meanwhile I left the board open and now my BoP are unable to tap for mana. Granted, I overextended myself, but Doran becomes so fragile you feel you need to accelerate your game while you have the opportunity. I later came to the conclusion that going a more Controlish route was the better choice and treating Doran as nothing more than a huge beat stick with zero drawback was the way to go.
Just my opinion. That opinion is also based off Type 2 results so they probably mean very little here. I think my reasoning still pertains, but it my not be a valid in Legacy.
Reguardless, you sum it up nicely here:
Nothing wrong with that. :smile:Quote:
just felt like having a little fun with the creature power/toughness ratios
The cool thing about Leech Tower is that all of the creatures (besides the BoPs) have a power of atleast one, so losing Doran isn't always the end of the world. Another cool thing about Legacy is that you always have cards like Karakas if you ever felt the need to run additional protection for Doran. Thanx for the feedback though, I'm glad to see someone besides myself interested in the list. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Versus
Has anyone considered Sunscape Familiar for this deck? Yes his behind is smaller than the average wall, but he makes those green spells much cheaper. Wouldn't it be fun to cast WoR and WoB for :g: each?
hey, the other day, I was messing around on MWS. I dont remember what I was playing, but the other guy had two daru spiritualists with a lightning greaves. (infinite toughness) the next turn he played Doran and swung in FTW. I dont know if that combo really fits in this deck, but its not a bad win option.
Sunscape Familiar sounds pretty cool. Too bad I can't abuse the blue side of it as well. Jungle Barrier would be so cool in the deck, especially with the Familiar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Rotten
Sunscape Familiar's effect is a single one, so it only applies once. With it in play, Jungle Barrier would still cost 1UG.
I guess I'm better off playing Carven Caryatid. Sunscape Familiar effectively makes it a 2/5 or 5/5 cantrip critter for GG. Not too shabby IMO especially in a deck that's already running Wall of Blossoms and Wall of Roots.
EDIT: Here's a new list that I just thought of. It incorporates Sunscape Familiar.
Spells:48
4 Doran, The Seige Tower
4 Rolling Stones
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Utopia Tree
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Wall of Roots
4 Sunscape Familiar
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shield Sphere
4 Land Grant
4 Chrome Mox
4 Cabal Therapy
Lands:12
4 Bayou
4 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:15
3 Karakas
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Swords to Plowshares
The cool thing about this list is that it runs Tarmogoyf as a backup plan as well as non-wall critters like Utopia Tree and Birds of Paradise so that I can still smash face without having Rolling Stones. I have 16 spells that are affected by Sunscape Familiar. Tarmogoyf, Utopia Tree, Wall of Blossoms and Wall of Roots, all cost one G mana with a Familiar in play. How cool is that? I'm also trying to fit carven caryatid into the list but I'm not sure what to cut. Let me know what you guys think of the new list. Peace.
Cavius, what have you been doing for games when you either don't draw both Rolling Stones and Doran, or one of them gets countered/destroyed? How can this deck possibly survive testing in this condition?
My current build runs 4 Tarmogoyf as a backup plan. I also run Cabal Therapy to get rid of nasty counters and creature destruction spells. Redundancy is also key here. 4 Doran and 4 Rolling Stones makes it more likely that I will be able to successfully cast either one. I hope that answers your question.Quote:
Originally Posted by CleverPetriDish
Assault formation seems good in here.
11 year necro!?!?!Quote:
Originally Posted by kinda
That’s super impressive.
Youre right. That plus Doran plus Green Sun’s Zenith and this deck is now consistent enough to compete once again.Quote:
Originally Posted by kinda
Tasseled Dromedary also seems great in the list (since it can attack in combination with just Doran)
They actually printed quite a few high toughness guys recently so theres no need for walls + rolling stones any more.
Yeah definitely. I'm running a version on Tuesday but missing some cards. Arcades the strategist is a gsz target that makes the walls relevant. Plus we added a NO protean hulk package...which does crazy things in a deck with 12 0cc critters. Work in progress but roughly:Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
4 birds of paradise
4 ornithopter
4 phyrexian walker
4 shield sphere
1 overgrown battlement
1 skinshifter
1 dryad arbor
1 sylvan safekeeper
1 gaddock teeg
1 arcades, the strategist
1 protean hulk
1 hellraiser goblin
4 green Sun's Zenith
3 natural order
4 cabal therapy
3 doran, the siege tower
4 assault formation
20 land
SB:
4 ensnaring bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
4 thoughtseize
3 abrupt decay
i think it's probably worth it to run X glimpse of nature. it's not perfect but should get you a few draws. (can function as an ancestral recall on turn 1 if you have it and 3 artifact guys, makes those hands a lot more tolerable.)
Good shout...I'll see if I can borrow some.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
Went 3-1 with Paul Wall Aggro tonight!! Beat sneak and show, death and taxes, and bug leovold...lost to Canadian thresh. Protean Hulk was clutch, the pile is doran/gaddock teeg/sylvan safekeeper/4 phyrexian walker/4 shield sphere/3 ornithopter. I regret not maindecking ensnaring bridge as it works great with all the 0 power dudes.
4 birds of paradise
3 ornithopter
4 phyrexian walker
4 shield sphere
2 overgrown battlement
1 skinshifter
1 dryad arbor
1 sylvan safekeeper
1 gaddock teeg
2 protean hulk
4 green Sun's Zenith
3 natural order
1 tower defense
4 cabal therapy
2 doran, the siege tower
4 assault formation
3 forest
1 swamp
4 windswept heath
3 verdant catacombs
2 overgrown tomb
2 temple garden
1 bw shock
4 ghost quarter
SB:
2 ensnaring bridge
1 terrastodon
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Leyline of the Void
4 thoughtseize
3 abrupt decay
I think you can make some quick changes to make it more legacy playable. Congrats on your 3-1.
How was skinshifter and battlement?
Other than those, I think replacing the shock lands & ghost quarter with duals/wasteland and finding room for 1 or 2 gaea's cradle can really help power out a hulk.
Reckless fireweaver is also a card that is interesting with protean hulk. (grab 2 of it and 10 artifact guys.) not sure 100% on the ruling, but I'm pretty sure they will all enter the same time and the triggers will happen.
Thanks! Yeah duals/wasteland/cradle would obviously be improvements. You mentioned glimpse prior which I still think is strong too. I think you do want a gsz target which can win quickly on its own with doran or assault formation...skinshifter is a 2 mana 8/8 don't know anything better for the slot. Overgrown battlement is for the hardcast hulk or gsz->hulk plan...unsure on it tbh. The 4th natural order would be good but I've only got 3 and I definitely shaved the wrong cheerio. Birds/ornithopter attacking and getting pumped by assault formation is sweet. Phyrexian tower should be in there...and lastly I'm hesitant on red cards. Pretty confident they're worse but they are exciting. Reckless fireweaver is interesting but frenzied goblin wins now...reckless let's you get sylvan safekeeper too though. Thanks for the suggestions! Try it in your local. I had to borrow shield sphere/teeg/sylvan safekeeper so won't be running it again soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
having access to maindeck teeg is great. (with cradle you could turn 1 him out pretty easily too, or turn 1 doran with a more lucky hand like 4 artifacts, gradle, gsz. could you go into some more detail on your matchups?
e-bridge also seems pretty nuts.
i don't think i'd mind playing this deck, but i actually have to pick up some doran's and the wall enchantment thing!
funny enough i have everything else including the duals/cradles.
i feel like wild pair could also do some weird things with shield sphere or phyrexian walker. any initial thoughts on any broken cards that match a total of 6 for power/toughness? (3/3 or 2/4 etc)
As always I'm happy to lend things, just message me on the Monday! Don't have Cradles, but duals, wastelands etc are fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by kinda
You definitely should it's a ton of fun and surprisingly powerful. I'll do a report later.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
@whitefaces: Yeah I know, thanks! Clearly paul wall aggro is so good though that shocks and ghost quarter aren't enough of a handicap :cool:. We didn't get a post hulk picture I've realised which is dissappointing...
@mistercakes: short report as requested.
Round 1: sneak and skill
G1: I put in protean hulk off show.
G2: I put in bridge off show. Discard does work this game too.
Round 2: Canadian Thresh
I mulled both games and winter orb was strong G2. Almost recovered with ornithopter to block his delver as I had assault formation out but it gets countered.
Round 3: Death and taxes
G1: I get him down to two but then he gets Jitte online. I had about 5 turns to draw my 3rd land of the game to win but never did.
G2: I cabal therapy turn two and natural order turn 3 :cool:.
G3: Pumping birds with assault formation while bridge is out gets there.
Round 4 BUG Leo Control
G1: Cabal therapy then natural order gets there.
G2: very grindy, I end up hardcasting protean hulk.
Will be trying the deck soon (couldn't get my hands on the 2nd Doran to test it this weekend)
Changes that I will make on the deck:
+1 Natural Order (to play the full playset)
+1 Gaea's Cradle (need to loan one before buying)
+1 Phyrexian tower (to get another sac outlet)
(and of course the duals and wastelands)
Now, what to cut?
1 forest for the cradle is no problem
Not sure if that scrubland is necessary, I prefer another Savannah or bayou (green is our most important color)
Also, I get the wastelands, but these are 'slowing us down' maybe cutting one for the Phyrexian Tower
So I need one more cut for that NO (and very tempted to play bridge main or crop rotation for cradle/tower or glimpse, choices choices :-))
I might be tempted to cut the tower defense, it's more a 'win more' card, or an overgrown battlement. Although I like the card (and we need green creatures/ramp to NO), we need to cut something and more cheerio cutting isn't the best play.
I think I will go for 4 Ornithopters, 3 walkers and 3 or 4 shield spheres. Shield Sphere is an awesome card, but without the assault formation, it's not that good for our main plan.
I saw that red goblin in a previous post for giving hast, be is there another option, maybe on the 2 CMC slot?
Awesome! Let us know how it goes :smile:. I don't recommend testing the deck. Just waltz into your local with all the unwarranted confidence you can muster.
All of your points seem reasonable. I like glimpse more than crop rotation I think. Wasteland is pretty much just for depths decks...so it's a meta call I'd say. It's less important if you will md bridge or crop rotation which can get Karakas.
By testing I mean, taking it to a 30 man tournament :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by kinda
You perfectly described my style.
Is this new spoiler high alert better than Rolling Stones??
1UW
Oracle Text
Each creature you control assigns combat damage equal to its toughness rather than its power.
Each creature you control with defender can attack as though it didn't have defender.
2WU: Untap target creature.
https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com...1472631045.png
I think that now with High Alert and Arcades, the Strategist this deck could shift to Bant and delve further into Wall tribal. Adding blue gives it access to cantrip goodness, counters and the mighty Wall of Denial.