I would rather play Cloud of Faeries because it cycles.
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I would rather play Cloud of Faeries because it cycles.
Composite Golem (if you choose to play it) can be tutored for by Fierce Empath though, so it gives you a way to consistently generate mana you can spend on non-creature spells.
I think that creature based win is still superior because it takes up minimal slots in the deck, while still allowing you to tutor your pieces. It makes the deck a little more consistent.
Once you play a grozoth (fetch grozoth#2 and Myojin of Life's Web) sac grozoth to play myojinr emove the counter and play everything in your hand it's 21 mana just from the 2 grozoth and the Myojin. This is probably the simplest way to gain enough mana for maga, and it's tutorable with empath.
you dont even need maga. With at least red Myojin its a nice clock. If there is Maga, nice.
Storm Combo... Not the answer. It just doesn't have synergy with Food Chain and is clunky, clashing with the interaction with the rest of the deck.
hmm... will it be possible to play nineteen spells in one turn and then kill with storm entity as a backup to maga? Grozoth and Myojin of Life's Web makes a hell lot of good nine drops, unfortunately, the spirit of the night are legendary, so they will just be killed. When a deck like this got so much tutors, business spells and ways to generate mana (once food chain is out) we do need a good hard-to-disrupt kill. Tendrils is nice, but as you say, it doesn't have any synergy with the rest of the deck. if doubling cube could be played with composite golem (that's 2 for the cube, 3 for activation), you could have a doubled mana pool for any use. I know it's pretty hard to do, as Doubling Cube can't be tutored. Am I missing something?
You could play nineteen spells in one turn for a 20/20 haste. It should be noted that nineteen spells is a lot, it would be easier to just use the Myojin or Maga for twenty. The easiest way to get a storm of twenty that I can see, is to chain into a Myojin of Seeing Winds, activating it, and using the drawn cards to feed to each other into Storm Entity.
It seems like Momir Vig, Simic Visionary could have a place in a deck like this since he's not bad on his own, and absurd in the presence of Root Maze. Of course, he does want to be played with Coiling Oracle.
Drift of Phantasms could work as a tutor, but it's slow.
Some ideas. I've had a little bit of trouble with drawing into nothing even after I've started going off, and so I think a singleton that helps ensure a more reliable combo would be helpful. Enter Primordial Sage. Tutorable off of Fierce Empath, draws a ton more cards, and is just generally a pain for your opponent.
SEcondly, I've had problems with not drawing into Food Chain or tutors not being fast enough. Ashnod's Altar, while not as good, does give you some kind of engine to cyle through creatures, especially if you add Cloud of Faeries to get colored mana.
I think some mechanism of tutoring for Food Chain is optimal, but there isn't much of one available that's not really slow. Unless you try something like Intuition.
Food for thoughts, will Sneak Attack fit into this deck? In my opinion a R/G hybrid would be extremely powerful...
It will solve the problem of not drawing or having Food Chain in your opening hand. You could use Sneak Attack to to sneak out ALL the uncastable creatures on your hand. Perhaps an alternative win condition.
Hoped that helps :)
The mana base isn't really set up for it, although Sneak Attack/Grozoth/Zodiac Dragon is spiffy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaBorgerman
You dont play rites, like Seething Song or something like that. So i dont think that Sneak Attack ist fast enough.
What about a back up plan? Something you can simply throw out, even if the combo doesnt start cuz of a countered food chain or something like that.
What about Mogg War Marshall? With Food Chain, it becomes a better seething song (costing 1R, instead of 2R).
Also, I like the idea of Zodiac Dragon. . but does anyone even have one?!
What you porpose does not work, Food Chain's cost is to remove the creature, it never hits the graveyard. Zodiac Dragon's or Mogg War Marshal's effects will never trigger.
marshall isnt as amazing as it could have been, but its still pay 1R to cast a creature, and get 3 of one color (for marshall) and 1 of another color (for the cip token) for it.
the idea of foodchaining tokens for 1 mana though led me to:
Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
4B
2/2 legendary human wizard
Whenever you play a creature spell, put X 1/1 black Thrull creature tokens into play, where X is that spell's converted mana cost.
When you control seven or more Thrulls, sacrifice Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
so for each creature you'd play with food chaing you'lld get double the mana by sacing all those tokens for 1 mana each.
I'd think Shrieking Drake, Grinning Ignus or Sawtooth Loon might be better fits for the deck. Of course, Maga is still a better victory condition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacul Kamadaka
The thing is that the problem is not mana but draw ! But it's clearly one of the most mana generative card. I'm sorry to say that it's useless.
After a bit of testing yesterday, I came to the conclusion that it was highly inconsistent (you can combo turn 2 or turn 10) but also highly counterspell resistent (trinisphere and chalice help a lot). I played against a bad big blue player and his counterspells (FoW+counterspell+mana leak+stifle) did not make it.
The list I'm on right now :
// Lands // 22
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [5E] City of Brass
3 [WL] Gemstone Mine
3 [BOK] Tendo Ice Bridge
// Creatures // 22
1 [CHK] Myojin of Seeing Winds
4 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
4 [UL] Raven Familiar
4 [DIS] Court Hussar
1 [SC] Fierce Empath
3 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
1 [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals // kill
// Spells // 16
4 [MM] Food Chain
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
// Sideboard #1
SB: 3 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [DIS] Indrik Stomphowler
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 1 [MR] Duplicant
SB: 1 [CHK] Dosan the Falling Leaf
SB: 1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
// Sideboard #2 (stompy transformationnal)
4 SoFI
4 Jitte
3 SoLS
4 Shriekmaw
How much trouble have you had hitting enough mana for maga? The lack of evokers seems like it'd be hard to hit enough mana for Myojin or Maga, and it doesn't seem like it'd be too hard to fizzle with this. I guess Cloud of Faeries does the same job, but it just doesn't seem as effective because that's all it does. For the same cost, shriekmaw nets you one more mana, 1 for 1's your opponent, and saves sb space.
How's 4 Imperial Recruiter/1 Fierce Empath? I've been liking empath a lot, so I'm a little concerned that you only have one.
sweet decklist :) i like the idea of transformational SB, so this deck can at least defend itself with some swords. Undercosted beaters like Negator and Avatar of discord could also do.
94teen@: the idea with 4 imperial recruiter and 1 empath is to get a chain of spells. Rec for rec for rec for rec for empath= fetch a creature with 8cc and play it. The list I'm testing does always win the game on turn 4. That's too slow, but it's pretty consistent. That's because I run the grozoth toolbox instead. That may be a turn slower, but that's way more consistent. Also, if it was possible to play both toolbox and maga, then you got yourself a grozoth eaten to myojin, remove counter, get two 9cc into play, eat all creatures and kill with maga for 27 damage. It's just the problem with Maga, you don't always have him in hand, and the recruiter chain ends up only giving seven mana (fierce empath is not included in the chain this time) and sixteen more mana is needed.
My testing has not been intensive yet, but I noticed several things :Quote:
Originally Posted by 94teen
- empath fetches only 1 creature : blue myojin, I don't need to play several.
- as long as you draw creatures, you generate mana. You don't need that a creature provides +3 or +4 mana, you just need it to be a creature. Cloud is a bit the exception because it cycles when you're digging for your food chain, because it provides +5 manas (untapping 2 2CC lands), because it can be played and then you play food chain and then you start comboing and because it's the best creature after side-transformation
- Imperial Recruiter is a bit everything at the same time : universal creature fetch and also a mana provider when you make the chain recruiter for recruiter, ...
- after drawing a lot you have a hand full of lands and artifacts, that's an additionnal reason why mox diamond is so much better than chrome mox. Then the moxen provide coloured mana.
- dig the more you can on creatures and only after fetch for the creatures with recruiter. If you start fetching for the creature, then you remove creatures from your deck.
- chalices are good for playing cheap permanents before cracking the myojin's counter.
- finally sometimes, I was short on maga's mana, but I more felt that I was short on draw (or bad draw) than short on mana.
The idea of playing 11 equipments is that my beaters are too weak to make the game and that I need 1 equipement into play if I want to win. Adding beaters is probably not the way to go because they would be too lonely.Quote:
sweet decklist :) i like the idea of transformational SB, so this deck can at least defend itself with some swords. Undercosted beaters like Negator and Avatar of discord could also do.
I got some thoughts about your decklist. It's pretty good, and I completely forgot about Raven Familiar and Court Hussar as creatures xD But, are you sure it is a good idea not to play enlightened tutor? I mean, if Food Chain is not in the hand, then you're screwed :S Can Verdeloth the Ancient be used as a singleton (fetchable with Fierce Empath) since it serves two purposes: (and yes, kickers can be paid with food chain manaa :P) an alternate win condition when you don't have mana enough for a lethal maga. I think that say 8 1/1's are better than one 8/8. But even better, you can use the saprolings as fodder for myojin and for more permanents that myojin draws cards from. The treeman also stops mana flood and can then theoretically upwell the mana to use in next turn. How does that sound?
Depending on how your mana production and draws work out, Nantuko Cultivator, or, Sawtooth Loon could allow you to cycle dead cards out and improve your drawing characteristics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maveric78f
With your list, as it stands, Maga, Myogin, and the Mulldrifter are the only cards that have CC > 3, so -4 trinisphere, +2 Aluren, +2 Cavern Harpy might be a slick sideboard option.
If you want another tutor target for Empath, Zodiac Dragon would provide infinite mana, no?
no...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zork
I wanted to add karmic guide when I noticed it... RTFC, you have to remove the creature =/
Cool interaction.
So is this the use for Evoke we were saying would happen iff Wizards made it a trigger? Is there something better?
My current list looks quite different, but has proven itself in goldfishing
Wins on turn:
3/3/mullig. to 0/2/2/10/3/3/2/3/3 (21|21 Maga on turn 2 while opp at 4 life ;) /3 ... to be continued
Creatures
1 Iname as One
1 Maga, Traitor to Mortals
4 Skyshroud Cutter
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Mulldrifter
4 Fierce Empath
3 Myojin of Seeing Winds
4 Court Hussar
1 Raven Familiar
1 Phyrexian Gargantua
Spells
4 Food Chain
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Summoner's Pact
Lands
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Savannah
4 Temple Garden
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Crystal Vein
Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Pact of Negation
Choices:
Iname as One - The mana machine. This strange looking sausage can be fetched with Pact or Empath, played for 12 and ends as 24 mana because he brings his friend, a counterless Myojin.
Skyshroud Cutter - the green Ritual. Let's you go off turn 2 (where you most times cast FC)
Phyrexian Gargantua - Draw 2 with Empath
Enlightened Tutor - Consistance. Gets Food Chain.
Summoner's Pact - Gets what you need
.. I like the idea of Nantuko Cultivator very much .. i'll test it!
Citanul Woodreaders or Sunscape Battlemage would work better as extra card draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moczoc
Great list, it's awesome that it can be so fast. Too bad it still loses to a counterspell in game 1. I've thought about how to fix that, but Boseiju (to Living Wish for) only protects instants and sorceries...
Just a random idea:
A single tutorable Primordial Sage?
better? they are not tutorable with Empath and make -2 mana under FC!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
Damn, I should have read it again. Its gonna be replaced with Xantid Swarm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
I think most times I would play it, I would have to sac it to play the next creature. But it's worth a test.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfrago
I think we are all fairly agreed with the following deck skeleton:
4 Imperial Recruiter
X Fierce Empath (1 or 4)
4 Mulldrifter
4 Court Hussar
X Raven Familiar
4 Food Chain
X Enlightened Tutor (0 or 4)
am I right? The nantuko cultivator needs to be included as it can deliver some nasty beats as well as drawing a tons of cards when you got the draw going. Mulldrifter, Court Hussar (that digs into more mulldrifters) as well as Raven Familiar may be the "real" draw engine, when Fierce Empath tutors for more beefs and Imperial Recruiter either chains or searches for mulldrifters, hussars and ravens. I think the imperial recruiter keeps the wheel turning while finding mana, and Fierce Empath tutors up the kill, whatever it might be.
Did you already test it?Quote:
Originally Posted by willoe
I normally do not get that many lands in hand, as the engine is aiming more for card quality than quantity - at least till myojin hits play, but at that point you've probably won anyway.
Still, it can't be wrong to run 1-2 copies. I really want more card advantage in this deck.
this list is VERY good...Quote:
Originally Posted by Moczoc
Edit: i pulled the Garg for the cultivator...
Are there any other options other than Imperial Recruiter? He's great in the deck, and I'd love to be able to play him. The price is a little out of reach right now. Any suggestions?
The deck is already average with Imperial Recruiter. Without it, it's absolutely impossible.
The turn 3 win for a full combo deck with no disruption is very bad. That's why it must not be a full combo deck and I recommend to use a chalice/trinisphere shell.
I like the idea of playing aluren in addition to food chain is interesting. I'll try a version.
Would Leyline of Lifeforce help counter situation?
it would, the main problem isn't resolving critters though, it's the food chain...Quote:
Originally Posted by Makes_Loves2homarid
More combo, alas, less evoke. Still probably marginal....
Engine Critters:
4 Sky Hussar
4 Raven Familiar
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Man-'o-War
4 Cavern Harpy
Broken Cards:
4 Aluren
4 Root Maze
Secondary Victory Condition:
2 Brainstorm
Brakes:
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Gaddock Teeg
Mana Production:
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
?? your in the wrong thread bud. This deck list has nothing to do with the topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
I just don't get it.......:confused:
Are you kidding??Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
Brainstorm is baroooken in this deck: it combos with Thorn of amethist and Chalice@1, and finds your win conditions!!! It also can put on top the chaff, beaing even more broken than ancestral! Too bad it's restricted to 2 copies in this format...