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@ Mordel
How is your B2B + Thawing Glaciers setup working out? On paper, it doesn't look like it should be meshing well. You want Islands laid early game (for turn 1 counters, draw, dig, etc), and you try to resolve B2B asap versus most decks, so when exactly do you get max effectiveness out of Glaciers?
If your meta doesn't require it, then kudos, but do you ever miss maindeck Propaganda? How do you withstand creature rushes?
The deck is somewhat outdated, but thawing glaciers was sort of thrown in as a sixty-first land. Sometimes it works okay and others it doesn't.
Creature rushes were weathered by a stiff upper-lip, and early counters that would be followed by kegs and nerves of steel lol. I pretty much made the deck off of the top of my head: it was an adaptation of my old forbiddian deck. I basically took the wastelands and glaciers out and added/replaced a few things with newer things. To be honest though, excluding a few forbids, the counters stayed almost the exact same as before.
If I was going to play the deck current day, I'd probably have to hide behind propagandas, but when I played it, there was a lot of thresh, burn, random combo, deadguy and landstill floating around m-l. Many times I'd finish a game at next to next to no life. I actually sort of stopped playing the deck around the time flash started to get going...in fact I gave the format a break when flash happened.
I actually had chills in the sideboard instead of propagandas, basically (I just looked on my pc). I am not sure what exactly was going on in my head; here is the outdated sideboard. Feel free to laugh:
1 shackles
4 chill
2 hydroblast
1 blue elemental blast
1 back to basics
4 tormod's crypt
2 trickbind (at the time, I assume that I was thinking that if I am going to only run two, I need to makes sure that they resolve or something)
For what it's worth, I think I went the old school route that I used to take against sligh with goblins, which is eventually lock them out with chill. At the time, I think burn was really pissing me off and that is why the sideboard is so...lacking.
So I've noticed that the countermagic card pool usually looks like this:
Counterspell
Force of Will
Spell Snare
Force Spike
Now, I'm of the opinion that these 4 give MUC, both builds, the best countermagic to combat early-mid-late game nonsense.
However, have all the other countermagic cards been tested thoroughly? For example, Foil and Forbid have been advocated by some, but we haven't heard anything more. What about Mana Leak/Rune Snag? Outdated? Dissipate? 3cmc counters too expensive?
FoW, CS, and Spell snare are usually enough. If you want to add additional ones though, I guess the best one is Mana Leak. He's best early and mid-game - the point of the game where the deck struggles the most before stabilizing and winning. And then, late game, you'll be free to use the CS you didn't use earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
But once again, FoW/CS/Spell Snare are usually enough for lots of builds and metas.
I agree that Mana Leak is probably the next best counter after Force of Will, Counterspell, and Spell Snare. It is almost always a hard counter or a scare card with the threat of Back to Basics. I think it is a solid choice, definitely better than Rune Snag unless you can actually fit 4x Rune Snag. I think that may be too many; I'm trying 2-3x Mana Leak now.
Cryptic Command is also amazing, because it can wreck all sorts of stuff. Countering spells is always fun, but it is so versatile. The bounce is awesome if your opponent actually resolved something dumb (e.g. Choke or Humility), drawing is nice, and I have even used the "fog" to stall threshold and find a Powder Keg for that pesky Mongoose or a Shackles for a Tarmogoyf.
Since I really love Jace and Cryptic Command`s one of my favourite cards too, I want to play MUC in some 8-20 player tournaments. I didnīt read the thread completely. Hereīs my actual list:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
6 [IA] Snow-Covered Island
6 [PT] Island (3)
1 [PT] Swamp (2)
1 [PT] Plains (1)
1 [A] Scrubland
// Creatures
1 [US] Morphling
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
1 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror
// Spells
3 [US] Back to Basics
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [A] Counterspell
2 [LRW] Cryptic Command
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [FNM] Accumulated Knowledge
3 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
What do you think about it? Any obv coefficient I forgot while building this?
Looking for advice,
NQN
From following this thread I can tell you that most people will tell you your lands are too few, and the brainstorm/saclands is a waste of life, opens you up to tricks like stifle. Your list looks like it doesn't know if it wants to be MUC or Counterbalance-less counterbalance X. :smile: . But yeh stick to basic lands and just replace the explosives with powder kegs and listen to the people who know more what they are talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
I dont agree with slylie. I had played this list (replace the commands with cunning wishes) in 3 tourneys (13 - 27 player) and piloted it to 2x 2nd place + 1x 1st place.Quote:
Originally Posted by slylie
http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?cr...stian%20Donner
22 lands are enough, and stifle/lifeloss is not an issue. Also EE is better than Powder Keg if you can support it.
Only the Scrubland could be a Tundra...
So go for the tourney with this list and tell us what happened. :wink:
Meloku is horribly vulnerable and is terrible for tempo. One can argue that he wins the game as soon as he drops, but quite frankly; just about any creature that MUC will win the game when it drops. Morphling, Rainbow Efreet or Masticore 4tw.
Oona or Meloku are terrible imo...I am not sure which is worse though, because Meloku is tiny AND produces tokens at the cost of land, while Oona costs a bunch, has a somewhat inconsistent token production effect and the only thing durable about her is her five toughness and black colour.
One of the primary goals of MUC construction should be to include cards that limit as many outs for your opponent as possible. When I first saw Meloku in that deck, I thought "hmmmm, sweet someone else with a singleton forbid" and then I continue looking and I see none, as well as cryptic command.
There is nothing wrong with cryptic command necessarily, but in most of MUC's bad matchups that I have played I would much rather have either a cheaper card that bounces, counters or draws me a card. Then again, I haven't been playing my MUC deck a bunch lately.
I haven't played this deck very much lately but I've never liked Force Spike except in one GrO variant I saw one time. MUC has so many tools to go into the late game that Force Spike honestly is just a dead card most of the time. Any card over that slot I think would suffice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
I thought as much; FoW, CS, SS, and FS are the best 4 spells. The reason I was asking was because I was looking thought my binder and came across all these old counters; Dissipate, Forbid, Mana Leak, Rune Snag, Miscalculation, Desertion (lol), etc.
Forbid is worth a singleton slot if you are going for the draw-go strategy, in my opinion.
How? You don't have any recurring CA (Ophidian) to make Forbid worthwhile. Thus, Forbid is strictly a worse Counterspell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordel
EDIT: What if your opp counters Forbid? Is it still worth it to include Forbid?
It may be strictly worse than counterspell, but you are already running four counterspells.
In most situations you don't buyback forbid if it will get countered...who does that? lol
It is basically a nice card to have one of in muc, if you are going with the draw-go strategy because:
-very easy to fit into the deck
-in many situations the extra colourless mana doesn' make a big difference
-in some situations when you have a full hand and a visions ticking away or an fof in your hand; you will be drawing the same amount of cards that an ophidian or magpie would have got you over the course of three turns.
Also, on force spike: I like to have another option for stopping a lackey on the first turn besides dropping my hand to five so early with an FoW. Keep in mind that is based on a "stack" version and not a permanent-based version.
Forces and disrupts are also very nice to have against decks like deadguy and Eva Green, in my opinion.
And what exaclty does Force Spike do better with its mid-latgegame weakness than Spell Snare over the course of a whole game?Quote:
Forces and disrupts are also very nice to have against decks like deadguy and Eva Green, in my opinion.
One might argue about that singleton Forbid, but I am not convinced of this Force Spike > Spell Snare discussion in an unknown metagame.
What I'm arguing is that Forbid is a bad fit into the deck, not an easy/hard fit. It's bad for MUC, even as a singleton. Your reasons for using it don't hold much weight. It's only best when you already have CA i.e. when you're winning, hence it's "win-more."Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordel
Forbid isn't maybe strictly worse than Counterspell, it is strictly worse than Counterspell, as the Buyback is very insignificant.
Shawon: To each his own. Some situations aren't necessarily "win-more" when you have very little actual counters in your hand and a great deal of chaff. I am going to leave any other debate to be dealt with by others if they want, because quite frankly, neither of us will change our opinions.
Doks: If you scroll up to my semi-outdated version of MUC, you will notice that I run both force spike and spell snare. I really like countering first turn plays. What can I say? Some people may dislike running them. Hell, I might eventually too when I get around to testing MUC more. As long as the deck remains draw-go, though chances are they will stay. If the deck shifts to a permanent-based game, then I will most assuredly drop them.
I am absolutely, positively not trying to come off as pompous whatsoever when I ask this, so please keep replies civil: has anyone that questions force spike/disrupt played much draw-go? As in a deck that is basically three or less kill creatures, fourteen or more counters, draw and a fairly limited amount of actual removal...which comes in the form of powder keg or disk?
The first few turns are absolutely crucial for this strategy. I don't like running the risk of an opponent dropping anything threatening while I am in the middle of dropping my first three lands in the game.
I don't want to sound like I think I am the most experienced draw-go player, because I am definitely not compared to a lot of people on the forums, but I would like to think that I have learned a thing or two about it from playing it in every format that it has been viable in since I first copied Buelher's deck from a duelist when I was a kid.
Once again though, my argument and ramblings could be moot because the permanent-based builds might be better in a universal metagame.
It's not that Force Spike and Disrupt are bad cards for MUC by themselves, it's just that there are better cards. Spiritmonger isn't a bad creature, but it's "bad" because it's overshadowed by tons of better creatures.
That said, I don't think Force Spike is bad in MUC, but there are better cards, such as Foil. The reason why I think Foil is better than Force Spike is because Foil can be relevant both early game and mid game. Force Spike is only good in the early game, and it quickly becomes weaker. Foil, if anything, becomes stronger as you're more able to hardcast it, which happens a lot, I mean alot. Also, if you're talking about countering 1st turn plays, Foil does a better job countering turn 1 Lackey on the play than Force Spike (or Disrupt). Foil fits awesomely into MUC because you can easily offset the pitch cost with Visions/FoFs (unlike multiple Forbid+buyback).
You want to win all of your counter wars. Another reason why I think Foil as well as Spell Snare are better than Force Spike or Disrupt.
However, I'm speaking from using the perm-based MUC version. I guess with the stack-oriented version you have more room for counters, so you can fit Force Spike and Disrupt, but even then I'm sure you could be adding better cards.
Permanent-based builds have several ways to recoup against threats that weren't worth foiling or fowing early, but draw-go doesn't. I also like foil, but the kicker is that the only thing standing between draw-go and loss is counters and a few disks. That means you can't afford to pitch two cards on top of casting one anymore than you want to cast a fow in the first or two if you can help it. Foil works if you have stuff like propaganda on the table and/or EE's, kegs and shackles, amongst other things coming up soon, but permission control doesn't like to lose three cards so early in a game...especially if one is a land. In the same token, a forbid works in a singleton slot for said strategy because you are getting it as a singleton notably later in the game(ideally) and might need a reusable counter because you have expended the others and have superfluous land and/or draw(or whatever really an odd force spike even) with a win condition sitting on the table. At this point forbid is sort of a winmore card, I suppose, but I would rather have a soft lock when I am already winning than see my opponent drop something that can keep my morph at bay or kill it and have nothing to do against it potentially.
Forbid is largely a preferential choice for a singleton slot as you have acknowledged.
While I think that Force Spike CAN be a dead card late game, a lot of the time this is not so. It forces your opponent to play around it in the late game if you play one early on, or in game two, and with Back to Basics and Propaganda, Force Spike can often be a one mana Counterspell. Spell Snare is good too, not only in the early game, but for slapping down things in the late game. Sure it can be a dead card, but often this is not so with so many efficient two-drops in Legacy. Thus I will agree that Force of Will/Counterspell/Force Spike/Spell Snare is definitely the suite to beat of all suites in countering. Also I don't like Forbid. As someone mentioned above, it really is win-more.