Guys, what do you think about this list?
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29980
Discuss!
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Guys, what do you think about this list?
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29980
Discuss!
That deck plays 4 Cabal Ritual and 3 Natural Order. 2 Kitchen Finks seems to be a bit light, in such a deck, I would play 4. Also, Yavimaya Elder seems terribad. Putrefy should be Vindicate and there should be 4, that can also be very good with the Wastelands. Extirpate should not be in the maindeck. There should be 4 Thoughtseizes. Pernicious Deed and Birds of Paradise seems bad. And the list is 61 cards. After a first glance, I would build it more like:
4 Wasteland
2 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Treetop Village
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Progenitus
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Natural Order
Hmmm... I still don't like it. I would probably change alot more, eventually dumping NOPRO, Cabal Rituals, Birds of Paradise...geez I would so totally change it back to my own deck the more I think of it, haha :smile:
One comment. When the design of rock is only BG or with a minimal white splash I think you have to strongly consider Elves of the Deep Shadow. They can do damage on their own and produce all or greater than 2/3 of your color requirement as well as beat for 1 when necessary.
In a rock deck especially one that packs cabal therapy and NO, I think that Wall of Blossoms deserves a second look. I understand it's a 2 mana cantrip but it can block everything but Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker which has to count for something.
Last, I hate extirpate. I don't care that it can take 1/2 to all of someone's win conditions if you manage to make them discard it.
The deck won a 70 player tournament. Either that was a giant fluke, or she's doing something right. Personally, it makes me wonder "Hmm, is Yavimaya Elder playable after all?", but maybe that's just because I really like Yavimaya Elder.
People should actually play the deck and test it first, before commenting and adjusting the deck.
I have seen so many comments in different threads that are not even constructive, they end up changing the deck to what they want it to be. A lot of players hate change. Once they see a deck list that got 1st in a tournament, they bash on it, instead of actually analyzing the deck.THen they Switch those unpopular cards, for cards that they love, eventually reverting the deck back to their own deck ( which didn't really win a 70 player tournament).
Back to the deck
Natural order Progen has always been a very very good alternate win con.
Although I'm not really a fan of putrefy or extirpate, maybe it could have been something better. Maelstrom pulse instead of putrefy.. however he might have wanted an instant speed answer. Extirpate maindeck is questionable however he might have wanted it more for metagame reasons.
Yavimaya elder is interesting. It seems the deck is more defensive than offensive until he gets NOPROG.
Interesting over all. I would have wanted to see a tourney report with it however...
Actually, it's an he. Andrea in Italy is a male name. And that list is more slowish than normal BGW rock, but it's solid as hell. I played against it, and i liked how Elders performed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
I agree with Flip, the first comments to the list are a mess. Pridemage? Elves of Deed Shadow? Come on, look at the list to find 4 Deeds and no white Mana.
I think the list looks realatively well thought through.
But I think the mana base is too shaky. With only 21 lands with 5 of them produzing only colorless it has to be a pain if the Bird gets destroyed. I would almost certainly not play the Wastelands and play more colored sources instead. He apparantly came through with only playing 12 green lands (of which 1 comes into play tapped) and 11 GG drops but that means not that it will happen with the needed consistency. If the Birds gets sniped the deck will not work in many games because it is screwed on G.
I also prefer Thoughtseize over Therapy in Legacy in almost any situation so the split should imo be 4 Seizes 3 Therapies.
Oh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
I was going to just say "he" out of reflex because as everyone knows, female magic players don't exist. But then I decided to check anyways. And what do you know, it's an Andrea, a she after all.
Apparently not.
Is Luca also a male name in Italy?
Yes, it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
About the list I have to say that maybe i prefer veteran explorer than yavimaya elder because it cost, but elder is much better in long game thanks to its own sac ability.
I think that first we have to try the same decklist and then make changes, I always do this. I will test it next weekend.
Yeah, but I top8'd with it in a 138 player tournament, does that count for something?Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
Actually I did include white mana in the manabase. And did you notice the Birds of Paradise in the list? They also die to Pernicious Deed. The Rock used to have Birds, Deeds, Elders, what have you, but those are all really old lists. There's a reason there's a white splash now, there's a reason the deck has evolved as it has. This deck is just a giant step back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
The list has alot of, ehm, let's call them unusual choices:
Birds of Paradise: this card is dropped by most decks for a reason.
Yavimaya Elder: 3 mana for a 2/1? Eternal Witness is questionable, but this card is down-right crap.
NOPRO: very risky wincondition; counter on NO is a big loss.
Extirpate: it's just plain crazy to run this card maindeck.
Putrify: Maelstrom Pulse is way better. And Vindicate is better than Maelstrom Pulse. Putrify is not Legacy playable.
Smother: any deck that has white should run Swords to Plowshares over Smother. Doesn't have white? It should, because it should run Vindicate.
Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy: I would rather run a 4 Thoughtseize/3 Cabal Therapy split.
Withered Wretch: not real good graveyard hate; against Reanimator or Ichorid not fast enough.
I could go on and on about improvements, which I'm pretty confidant are improvements. If you look at the top8 of the tournament, you see the following decks: Zoo, Boros, Goblins, Merfolk and Enchantress. All decks that are pretty easy for a deck packing Pernicious Deeds and Engineered Plague in the sideboard. It looks more like a good meta call than a good deck to me.
Hey guys :D I'm not a regular Rock player and I'm only writing here because I had a brainfart which I wanted to share and get laughed at about.
Isn't Ob Nixilis the perfect creature for the more controllish, late-game-oriented Rock decks?
Then we're approaching a dangerous level of overlap between female names in Hungary and male names in Italy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al-ucard
I tried this deck and it results that without NO you can't win, tarmo is the only other Wincon and it's so easlily killable.
You can't manage the board, make CA and hope you'll cast an uncontered NO.
If your tarmo are killed you just rely on NO and most of the time no creature to pay it.
I have made a few test games with the list (no Wastelands and Wall of Blossoms instead of Extirpate) and I am really impressed. I made the first games with 3 Yavi Elder but after just 3 games I went up to 4. He is nothing but awesome in this particular deck. Plz test with him in this shell before you dismiss him.
I really dont like Extirpate and Wasteland. Wasteland gives you Mana Trouble especially when they attack your Bayous and Birds. And I don't see the point of Extirpate. Except from being good against Loam and Ichorid you don't need it. Your lategame plan is already awesome with Stronghold on on Yavi Elder or Stronghold on Witness on Natural Order.
I think I prefer Maelstrom Pulse over Putrefy. Being able to snipe Counterbalance and Humility (and random Planeswalker, Deeds, Moats, Enchantress Stuff etc.) is imo more worth than Instant Status. Sniping doubles with Pulse and having an own Goyf and wanting to destroy opponents Goyf should balance out somehow.
Edit:
That was not the result of my testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kesta
- There are plenty ways to control the board with Deed, Goyf, Finks and the other removal.
- Yavi Elder, Witness, Stronghold and Deed are a lot of options to create card advantage
- With 4 Seizes and 3 Therapies (or vice versa) you should be able to do more than just "hope" that NO will not get countered
The most common situation where Maelstom Pulse appears to be 'bad' is where you both have a Goyf staring at eachother. But that's okay for The Rock, compared to any other deck playing Goyf, you're the control deck, so it's okay to slowplay. As soon as your opponent can break Goyfstill, either by removing your Goyf or adding another Goyf, Maelstrom Pulse is good again. So yes, Maelstrom Pulse is almost always better than Putrefy. The number of scenario's where you need Putrefy's instantness is very small.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
@ Skeggi
Yavimaya and the other unpopular choices might be a step back, to the old days. But stepping back isn't necessarily bad, for this list it actually worked.
I actually play 3 color rock myself but non the less, we're actually looking at the decklist and trying to see how it got to top 1 recently. We are analyzing the deck,and trying to learn something from it, not compete with it.
If you continue to say that the 3 color version is better than this version, then by all means take your deck to a tourney and take top 8 and I'm sure people would talk about your deck and analyze it as well... for the time being.
People like looking at recent decks that took top 8 for good reasons. Most of the time its to learn from it.
@ the deck.
Mana base I have no idea as I haven't tested it yet. THe only thing I find clunky are extirpate and maybe putrefy... other than that.. yavamiaya elder looks good if your going for a more controlish version..
I'm testing Natural Order Rock since somebody started a thread about it in N&D forums.
This is my current list:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
5 Forest
4 Swamp
23 lands
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
1 Progenitus
16 creatures
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Smother
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Natural Order
21 other spells
I know, it looks kinda creature-light, but this version just stalls, clears the way for Prorder and beats face with a 10/10 guy. The Manabase has been pretty solid, 10 fetches help to use Top efficiently. Top has been the best addition to the deck since testing it in my opinion. I'd like to include more creatures (that Yavimaya Elder guy or Wall of Blossoms as additional stallers) and/or the 4th Order, but I just don't have the room for it.
Nice additions for the manabase would be 1 Dryad Arbor (as you have situations sometimes in which you have to wait for a critter or sacrifice a Goyf, which both sucks) and 1 Volrath's Stronghold to recycle the critters you sacrificed for Therapys or countered Orders. I always disliked the Arbors in other Prorder Builds as it lets the opponent know that you play the combo when you have to play it as a normal land, but in this one it is ok I guess.
Isn't there any better removal than Smother out there O.o I thought about Ghastly Demise because it costs only 1, but it needs too long to kill Goyfs sometimes. Snuff Out is not good as we're a controlish deck. Doomblade is clearly worse than Smother, Edicts do not handle the things you really need to handle and I guess there aren't more vaible black removal spells...
Maybe one could justify cutting the Pulses as you have already heavy discard onsite to handle nasty non-creature Permanents and play Wall of Blossoms or the Elder in that slot. I also tinkered around with a build without Birds, but I often had to keep hands with no T1/T2 play, which was pretty awful.
I also thought about adding 2-3 copies of Umezawa's Jitte to the maindeck, but I had my doubts:
1. my list only plays 16 critters, only 11 of them can carry a Jitte
2. deckspace
Let me hear your thoughts.
He actually did. Top 8 Dutch Open Legacy Championship with 138 players. So discuss.Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
1 swamp
1 volrath's stronghold
4 bayou
1 forest
2 savannah
4 scrubland
3 windswept heath
1 plains
3 marsh flats
2 verdant catacomb
4 dark confidant
1 eternal witness
4 tarmogoyf
3 qasali pridemage
2 tombstalker
4 vindicate
4 thoughtseize
4 swords to plowshares
3 sensei's divining top
2 path to exile
2 duress
2 elspeth
3 pernicious deed
SB
2 duress
4 gaddock teag
4 engineered plague
1 tormod's crypt
2 extirpate
2 diabolic edict
( http://benelegacy.nl/viewtopic.php?f...sd=a&start=330 )
Is 15th of November not recent enough? Anyhoo, as I said, from my analysis I can only say it was a good meta call. All the implications that I instantly dismiss something are false, I certainly looked at the list, and after careful consideration I have to conclude that it's not an optimal list. Joon's list looks alot more solid to me for instance. If you were to go down the NOPRO route and keep it 2 colors, Joon's deck looks alot more promising in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
@Joon; how is a list without Pernicious Deed working out for you? I used to have trouble with it, even though Pernicious Deed is often slow, it's also often game winning even if you bury alot of your own. I agree with you that you should try Dryad Arbor. Volrath's Stronghold is an auto-include in this deck. Without it, Eternal Witness has alot less potential.
@ Skeggi
Thats recent indeed, then I guess some players have moved on and wanted to discuss a different approach to the rock. Maybe your list was optimal enough that there weren't really any holes or questions about the deck. Hence the deck with Yavimaya elders.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this deck is better than that or whatever. All I'm saying is stop bashing on other peoples deck even if it has unpopular cards. They made it to top 8 so there is a reason for it.. Sometimes its luck, sometimes its a metagame call. Sometimes the deck just works well as it is even with those unpopular cards and even when others do not seem to agree.
Then let us move on to the deck discussion.
Id say it was a good metagame call as well, but still, yavimaya elders are worth testing.