[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

I played the Deck by Eli Kassis from the SCG 5k$ tourney in a local tournament 3 weeks ago just to see how it plays. The list Johanessen shows us a few posts above is very similar to Eli's list.

There are several things I really liked about it:
-> threads
-> countersuite
-> mana base

Other things weren't that great, especially the Burning Wishes and the sideboard, but let's focus on the positive things as we can learn from it.

threads
-> Goyf obv. is the beater of choice.
-> Lavamancer was great all day long, defeating Merfolk nearly all on his own, breaking Goyf stallments and so on. Additionally, the classic "Turn 1: Mancer, Turn 2: Land (Mishra? ;)) + Standstill" - play is still very strong. However, I don't know if the full 4 is right.
-> Vendilion Clique I fell in love with when I tried her as an additional flying, disruptive beater in UGw CounterTop, and I still like her very much. Knowing their hand is the best part of her CIP-trigger, possibly taking their best spell is a nice bonus in my view. 3/1 flying is nothing to be scoffed at, especially when supplemented by Mancer or burn.

counter
Eli's deck tops at cc3, so playing the full 4 Daze wasn't a problem at all. I like any combination of 4 FoW + 7-8 Daze / Spell Snare, though. The ability to bring in both red blasts or blue blasts from the board to supplement the countersuite is one of the reasons I like UGR the most at the moment.


mana base

-- Sidenote: I know all the arguments against basics in Tempo Thresh, but as the discussion now also includes other builds with merely a tempoish approach than beeing fully dedicated to the tempo plan, this twist IMHO also fits in this discussion. --

Eli's mana base consisted of

2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Very stable. Being able to fetch basics of all my colors and therefore dodging recurring Wastelands from Aggro Loam was great. Fetching Basics early respectivley playing them against Merfolk: priceless. The only thing I don't know if it's correct is the sheer amount of colored mana sources the deck contains. I think that one can be trimmed down a bit.

While i was testing vs. aggroloam i used the manabase of 8 fetch 6 dual, only lost one game to not having colored mana producer. is the only game i lost out of 10 matches. Vendilion is huge sending LftL to bottom, stifle stops his wasteland and making some pressure he could affort to destroy my lands cos he need colored mana to play bombs. bombs were tapped, stifled or after side board submerged and controlled , we have the tempo here. Anyway, I finally decided to go back to 8 duals and 6 fetches since is quite more controlish than caplan's tempo thresh.
Another change i was thinking talking from my experience is to add a trygon instead of vendilion. Vendilion is legendary and some times had one in hand and couldn't play it. BUT, Vendilion was mvp during all testing, against ANT and AggroLoam , i wanted everytime one in hand, I'm not sure about this change.
Also, I noticed in some matches the need of Ponder for the +1/+1 to goyd, but i felt engineered explosives were to good to replace and I didn't find anything else. EE are to deal with permanents that tempothresh uses bouncers, helps against tribals, affinitys if we dont have lavamancer online and i found it very good since it comes against counterbalance , is the solucion to it.
About Mandlands and wastelands, i found playing 4 stifles and 4 wastelands is very important, more than playing basic lands. Magus of the Moon? Okay, play grim and burn it. Or kill with Fire. Decks with crucible? We have counters, vendilion and EE@3. Same with B2b, while having Pyro on side. I think we are ones that have to make pressure, others will have to survive. if they take the iniciative we are lost.

Is anybody playing Consign to Dream in the 2x bounce slots? I tested it a bit and, god, is this sexy.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

Is anybody playing Consign to Dream in the 2x bounce slots? I tested it a bit and, god, is this sexy.

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how is consign better than wipeaway/rushing river?

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Originally Posted by sauce

how is consign better than wipeaway/rushing river?

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Well, with a good number of permanents being Green or Red* bouncing in resp to fetching (or survival activation) results in something really similar to an instant-speed vindicate.

If the fetch trick doesn't apply, it's still card parity AND tempo gain, instead of the same result with some added card disadvantage.
Oh, and it also can bounce lands.



*Everything or almost everything in: Goblins, Survival, Bant, AggroLoam, Zoo. And Goyf, Pernicious Deed...

It's nice to see that atleast someone tried Force Spike at a tournament aswell and that actually came to the same conclusion as we did: Force Spike is a hugh bomb for this deck, however it's dangerous to simply cut a Fire/Ice for it.
Thanks for some support/testing. You'll probably play with Force Spike's from now on, won't you?

@Adan, Did you had any time to test Force Spike's already? If you did: Can you give some thoughts about it?

I've also seen many players that do not know how to play this deck correctly, (F.E) they don't really know the definition of Tempo. I've seen people playing Tarmogoyf at turn two or a Nimble Mongoose/Ponder on their first turn, while having an hand with spellsnare (on the draw) and/or stifle. Tapping out means that you cannot bluf with Stifle, Spell Snare( and Force Spike) which makes your deck infact weaker (or atleast that is what I think it does to your deck). Bluffing is probably the most important thing when playing this deck. Be confidant. By letting your opponents not fetch for 2-3 turns, because he is scared of your stifle, may let you win the game just by the way you play the deck. I'm not sure how other people tend to play with this deck, but I believe that playing with such a weird type of deck(I mean it has Agro/Agro-Control and Combo elements in it) such as Tempo Threshold, since every card has it's meaning and purpose, should be played with a different playstyle than any other deck.

I'm not completely sure whether some things are strictly better than others, however the situation and my feeling tend to determine my playstyle. For example: Dazing a Brainstorm (from my opponent) with only a fetch on his side (and with no stifle in your hand), may seem a bit ridiculous, however the advantage of brainstorm is lost by doing this. He may still get 3 awesome cards, but probably you would have lost anyway if you had not dazed that brainstorm. There are ofcourse more example's.

About Consign to Dream. Well personally I still think that bounce is pretty bad so I think other people should test this. It seems ok, with many red and green targets. Nevertheless it does not have the property of a 100% bounce spell and a 2-for-1 bounce. I'm not sure if it deserves a place in this deck, maybe it does.

Hopefully this reply can bring this thread to live again, since posting Semi-Landstill decks will not make Tempo Threshold a better deck.

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Originally Posted by sauce

how is consign better than wipeaway/rushing river?

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I've changed the bounce spells a bit. I'm now playing 1 wipe away and 1 cryptic command in the deck. I know cryptic command is a 4 mana spell, so I've also cut a spell snare for another land which is a basic island. In testing its been working pretty well. I will report back when I have some actual tournament results with the change.

I also cut the 4 fire/ice before for 4 counterspells which has been very good to me also, but its strickly a metagame call. I've top 8 with both lists, so it just goes to show you what kind of decks you expect to play against. I can see replacing fire/ice with force spike, but I feel its more risky since force spike is not a hard counter mid-late game. Just my thoughts.

I'm not sure whether cutting Fire/Ice for Force Spike would be that good, since Fire/Ice helps a lot against 50% matchups and weak matchups.
Cryptic Command, although he looks nice, just seems impossible to me. 4 mana is just too much I believe.
About the + 1 Island, -1 Spell Snare. It looks risky and it is unneccesary, I think. We now have 5 lands that can be a disaster in your openingshand. Maybe the Island does look nice, but you now need 3 lands to get all the different mana colours you need.
Dragon Stompy and/or other Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon decks can not be used as an argument since TT has a sufficient amount of percentage to win already without the basic, although it is only decided with the die-role, who wins (probably).

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

I'm not sure whether cutting Fire/Ice for Force Spike would be that good, since Fire/Ice helps a lot against 50% matchups and weak matchups.
Cryptic Command, although he looks nice, just seems impossible to me. 4 mana is just too much I believe.
About the + 1 Island, -1 Spell Snare. It looks risky and it is unneccesary, I think. We now have 5 lands that can be a disaster in your openingshand. Maybe the Island does look nice, but you now need 3 lands to get all the different mana colours you need.
Dragon Stompy and/or other Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon decks can not be used as an argument since TT has a sufficient amount of percentage to win already without the basic, although it is only decided with the die-role, who wins (probably).

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Fire/Ice is good card against the tribal decks and sometimes It is nice
tempo if you tap land or maybe some creature and beat with your own
but there is still 3 of those even you cut one and you have 4 bolts.
I think Cryptic Command is bad choice. Getting 4 mana is quite hard
and if you play against some control you really need mana for counter war
and I think this deck doesnt need "finisher card" and commands mana cost
is too high for this deck I think.
Spike is nice card cause it works almost in same situations than snare
but spike hits cc1 and even higher caster cards if opponent is tapped out.
Spike makes your dazes more dangerous cause no one really expects
2 dazes and cause youre playing TT opponent knows youre playing snares
so he easily would play threads and left 1 mana open...and boom...you
play spike and daze. I know it is bad tempo but if you have snare and
daze in yur hand in this situation and opponent plays cc3 spell lefting 1
mana open, you really can do nothing cause your snare dies cause of 3cc
and dazze dies cause there is 1 mana open for your daze.
When I played TT in that tournament where I went rank2 I used
spikes several times in opponents turn 1 countering top or duress/seize
and using spike + daze for bad threads. Few times I played spike and
force opponent go tap out so I can play my threads in my turn againts
MUC and countertop. In most of the cases I think Force Spike is nice card
in this deckand it has its own power.
..and what becomes adding basic island to deck..it is quite unnecessary
cause you have cards against magus and b2b. You have bolts in MD and
blast in Sb. You really dont wanna have only one island in your opening
hand. In the past tournament I had 2 or 3 times hand with onyl 1 land
but hand was so nice that I really couldnt mulligan and if you have
relevant hand but you have single island you cant play bolts, you cant play
mongoose. Basic land in this deck doesnt sound good in my opinion.

What I have thought about is adding more hard counters like counterspell
or something like that but I am not sure about this. It might be working
in some situations but I dunno...what do you think about adding hard
counters?? :rolleyes:

I've been playing some Tempo Thresh for practice and love the deck, but I found the new addition of Standstill to be a perfect card for the deck.

As a Landstill player, I've seen the strengths in 6 StP/Path builds MD in order to ensure Turn 2 Standstills by removing the turn 1 Threat. The basic idea is on the back of tempo. Such a play is to generate board position/advantage and hence tempo in the game. Which other deck can accomplish this the best? UGr Tempo Thresh. You can pretty much play the style of Turn 1 Lightning Bolt/Daze and land Standstill consistently. Not to mention, with Grim Lavamancer, your opponent is forced to crack the Standstill.

Here are my beliefs on why Grim Lavamancer may replace Nimble Mongoose.

1. One weakness of Nimble Mongoose is the susceptibility to GY hate. Nimble Mongoose and Goyf hated out spells bad news for this deck. Mongoose requires 7 cards, and unlike Goyf, cannot be big fast after a Crypt/Relic, while Grim Lavamancer only requires 2 cards in the yard to turn into damage.

2. Grim Lavamancer gives reach. Sure it dies to StP, but you've redirected that StP away from your Goyf. Lavamancer has single-handedly beat Goyfs when I played against Zoo. Lavamancer can sometimes burn out a 4/5 Goyf all by himself. Late-game, it doesn't matter if Nimble Mongoose gets 20 cards in the yard or 7 in the yard, but every extra card feeds into Lavamancer damage. A Nimble Mongoose will not be able to swing past Goyfs/Tombstalkers but Lavamancer can slowly burn his way in, together with Lightning Bolts and Fire//Ice.

3. Grim Lavamancer functions amazing under Standstill, and the new Standstill version runs additional threats in Mishra's Factories, not to mention that the style of Tempo Thresh allows for fast and reliable Standstills to be placed, further boosting tempo and card advantage.


The heavier red focus on Lavamancer has also made me fetch my duals with greater ease. Previous builds, you had to account for more green cards such as Mongoose + Goyfs. The newer builds are more red-heavy, so you just need a green source out to play well.

Here's my list for reference:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory


4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Standstill

4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique (meta dependent, can by Trygon)

SB:
2 Trygon/Clique
2 Mind Harness
2 Submerge
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Red Elemental Blast


One thing that I noted that Standstill is anti-synergistic with the tempo plan. Unlike Landstill, this deck should not drop Standstill without a threat/Factory on board since you don't want your opponent to build up his manabase/hand. You want to force them in a situation where they have to keep up. So pitching Standstills to FOW with no threats in hand is not a bad plan for this deck, where it would have been a bad plan in Landstill. I would drop Standstill if I have Factory/Lavamancer/Goyf in play, otherwise, I would prefer not to play Standstill unless I'm confident with my mid-late game hand anyway (e.g. plenty of Goyfs/countermagic/burn).

What the hell, Standstill? Seriously people, Standstill does certainly not belong in this deck. You do not want to run colourless land in such a tight mana base as this deck is supposed to have. Wasteland already forces you to mulligan quite often. Also, as you said, Standstill is completely anti-synergetic with the rest of the entire deck.

3 factories, 4 lavamancers, 4 wastelands
what about that is anti-synergetic with standstill?

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Originally Posted by miko

3 factories, 4 lavamancers, 4 wastelands
what about that is anti-synergetic with standstill?

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4 Daze, 4 Stifle, 2 Force Spike, 4 Fire/Ice, 4 Mongoose and yes, even the Wastelands are anti-synergetic. The same is true for your manabase, sacrificing colored lands for Factories is not a thing you want to do.

This deck thrives on manadenial. Standstill is a free pass for everyone who wants to drop all their land. Resolving a standstill means: Thowing away Daze and Force spike, sitting with a useless stifle, getting less effective Mongeese and Fire/Ices. Wasteland can only hit manland and can no longer deny colors (they have plenty of time to find them).

Though standstill LOOKS good for this deck, but all other cards are becoming weaker by running it.

This deck doesn't want to slow down. Standstill is not Tempo, and does not belong in this deck.

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4 Daze, 4 Stifle, 2 Force Spike, 4 Fire/Ice, 4 Mongoose and yes, even the Wastelands are anti-synergetic.

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the deck posted above does not even play mongoose and force spike. wastelands are as far synergetic as they help you to kill oposing manlands.

but i have to admit that the list above is no real tempo thresh list. but it is neither a landstill build. it reminds me more of a traditional ur-fish seen in vintage 3-4 years ago. for reference: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=93

so i think this deck should be discussed in another thread. traditionally the deck did not play goyfs for the simple reason that there were non. ur-fish was traditionally called "gay fish". so why not open a thread for it here?

The

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so i think this deck should be discussed in another thread.

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I agree.

The above list is very close to the FaeStill lists that seem to do well. For reference

Granted, the above list doesn't play faeries, but the game plan is similar.

Standstill is probably the card that is completely the opposite to the gameplan of Tempo Threshold. It's late game is pretty weak and therefore should focus on winning in early/midgame, this is because Tempo Thresholds' Early game is probably the strongest of all Legacy decks (although I'm not really sure if ANT/Tes doesn't have a better one) and with a midgame that is strong enough to manhandle most decks. With Standstill you indirectly stall the game, making it harder for your original gameplan: to disrupt their manabase, dropping a creature and putting it sideways for 4 to 6 times depending on what creature is on the board.
It therefore should also not play real hard counters like Counterspell since it is not the purpose of the deck to get to lategame. Counterspell really gets effective for Tempo Threshold at mid-late game probably. There are a lot of other arguments why Counterspell should not be included in Tempo Threshold, but I'll not mention them, if you don't mind, since they are pretty obvious.

And about the UR fishstill list: post it somewhere else. It does not belong here.

As it can be seen here, I piloted a black Tempo Thresh variant to a 4-1 performance at Mannheim. My only loss was to UGW Balance-Thresh in Match 1 (similar to Clemens' build) because I somehow had the worst mana issues ever experienced.

And a terrible misplay (I played Edict on him, but missed to Stifle his topless Counterbalance. I'm a moron and deserved to lose, though).

But afterwards the deck didn't crapped out and I also played a bit more focused, so I could rescue myself to a 4-1.

But actually, my matchups were not really representative:

the UGW Balance-Thresh, a RGW Exalted Standard Deck, Affinity, BW Pox with Nether Void and UWb Landstill.

I decided to play Edicts because I always hated to lose against random Tombstalkers or other black creatures that might annoy you to hell otherwise (that day I had some issues with Helldozers and Braids, Cabal Minon by that Pox guy, I was very irritated, but Edicts just fixed that).

The Thoughtseizes in the SB are supposed to play the same role as the REBs from gooba's variant. But SBing then is quite difficult because you don't have the random stuff/burn to side out unlike the Red variant.

But Cenarius was actually not right with his statement: Dark Confidant is the nuts and he provides you mass of cards to keep your opponent down consistently. Remember: Tempo is generated by a huge amount of 1for1 trades. And Dark Confidant supports you by giving you a shitload of cards for that you can trade on and on.

Would there be room for Phyrexian Dreadnought in the dark Tempo Thresh? You're already running the Stifles. Or does this belong in another deck altogether?

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Would there be room for Phyrexian Dreadnought in the dark Tempo Thresh? You're already running the Stifles. Or does this belong in another deck altogether?

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Yeah, I got that hint from Oddball who was running them in his SB, but somehow no one owns Dreadnoughts in our region.
They are funny, they can be used to grow the Goyf by +2/+2, you can still steal a win against Blood Moons (against which you have to fetch the Island anyway), race Goblins, race Tombstalkers and Zoo Aggros which are high currently.

And thanks to CC1, they synergize very very well with Confidant. I'd play them if I'd own any since they sound like a hell of fun. Really. Unleashes the kiddy within you.

But no, I wouldn't play them in the Main for the sake of consistency.

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Originally Posted by Adan

As it can be seen here, I piloted a black Tempo Thresh variant to a 4-1 performance at Mannheim. My only loss was to UGW Balance-Thresh in Match 1 (similar to Clemens' build) because I somehow had the worst mana issues ever experienced.

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So is there no aggro in Mannheim?
The last german tourneys were really aggro infested, so i wonder how you pull off some wins with only some edicts.