[Archetype] CounterTop

There is no Team America anymore in my meta, so I'm not testing against it anymore. I didn't meet Tempo Thresh in a tournament yet, but from testing it can go either way; I won't fetch when they have mana open for a Stifle and I fetch for that singleton basic Island first. If you get to 2-3 mana, and you often can because you play alot of cantrips, you only need to land Counterbalance, that's usually gg. Counter their threats, they only run 8-10, and when they're gone, they'll have a hard time killing you.

I met Pikula(Deadguy Ale) in my last tournament and completely slaughtered it. Game 1 I was able to assemble CounterTop which protected my RWM. Game 2 was about the same story, but instead of a RWM I had a Goyf. I believe somewhere in between I spouted his Hippies. Who cares, right? As long as I get in the beats :wink:. I suspect Eva Green will be harder, but I have yet to test this match-up. You have to remember that both decks (Pikula/Eva Green) depend highly on disrupting your hand next to your mana base. CounterTop is perhaps the best deck in topdeck mode.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

You're looking at this the wrong way.

The beauty of the deck is that Natural Order is but one of many weapons. It's not like you need it to win, nor does it compromise your ability to win with Counterbalance, Tarmogoyf, and the rest of your threats.

By the time you're ready to cast Natural Order, they've likely used their Edict on something else. Or you have a Force of Will in hand. Or that elusive CC 2 on top with Counterbalance. The deck does run 15 non-Progenitus creatures --- it's not uncommon for you to have multiple creatures for Edict dodging. It's also fairly likely that they won't even draw an Edict in time.

Shit, they may have to cast that Edict early to stop that 4/5 Tarmogoyf from beating their face in. The beauty of this deck is that it presents your opponent with a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario every time you cast a creature.

Your opponents are going to have to spend most of their countermagic to stop your Counterbalances, Tarmogoyfs, Rhox War Monks, Forces and Dazes. By the time you're ready to resolve Natural Order, they'll be out of options if you play your cards right.

As for green creatures, you run 15. Very few decks are capable of removing 15 creatures, and it's not like it's hard to find them with Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top. Hell, you can even get one of them with your fetchlands.

tl;dr --- It's not what happens if they kill Progenitus, it's what happens if they don't.

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I can confirm everything said here.

The deck is capable of putting the opponent under early pressure with the mana boost from Noble Hierarch, sending out turn two War Monks or assembling Daze proof turn two CB's. As said already, your opponent is forced to handle your threats quick (especially with exalted).
To fight Edicts it is nice to have an additional fetchland in play, so you can crack it for Dryad Arbor. When you control SDT/CB you should be able to counter it with ease.

The only countermagic that answers Natural Order is FoW because, if played carefully, Daze is useless. Same for Spell Snares / CB. If you still have counters left in your hand, you should be in a position were you can protect Progenitus until he seals the deal.

You can check out my Tournament Report, where I share my latest experiences with my Pro Bant build, also talking about some common issues regarding the deck.

So, I've played unmodified list of Supreme Blue on our tournament (31 people), with slightly modified sideboard (2 meddling mages because of missing gaddocks and 1 path to exile because of low probability graveyards decks in meta).

Here is small brief:

1st match, Merfolks 1:2 (0:1)
I've won first game quite nicely, getting CB and Top resolved quickly and following it by Monk. Game 2 and 3 were simply too fast for me to handle the damage, and too hard because of loosing counter wars (cursecatchers).

2nd match, Merfolks 0:2 (0:2)
Both games were looking the same: loosing counter wars because of cursecatchers, and me breaking multiple standstills just to play anything to defend against mutavaults and lords played from vial. Terrible matchup.

3rd match, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh CT + NO 0:2 (0:3)
Both games ended up in same way - nobody could get any stuff on the board due to CB on one of the sides or counters, and then my opponent casting Natual Order for Progenitus, to which I either had no counter, or loose the counter war over NO.

4th match, random WB, 2:0 (1:3)
Last table, so there is not much to comment, a player was casual type who took two fast games.

5th match, SmallPox, 1:2 (1:4)
Won first game with early CB, and being able to draw answers to Urami and Tombstalkers. Second game was lost by him completely disrupting my hand, leaving me CB in play, without any chance to answer the 5/5 monsters. Third was lost due extripate into Swords to plowshares, extripate to Top (discarded by thoughtseize), artifact changing to 5/5 for 2B (dont remember the card name) bashing me for quick win.

I went terrible. I was so happy for the legacy tournament, I was preparing for it collecting all cards for few months and then it was complete nightmare. I've missed the meta completely, I felt my sideboard being dead all the time. I also felt the deck to be amazingly unstable, giving me too much mana, or simply not having good answers to what was happening on the table. I ended sad, beaten up and dissapointed. The tournament final was between two merfolk decks that I've faced in first two matches.

The positive feelings are about Monks and Firespouts, probably best cards in the deck, that can turn the game around. If ever resolved.

I don't know about you...but I find merfolk to be a very easy matchup. You have mainboard firespouts which trump everything they play. The only card I worry about from them is Jitte.

Yeah. Firespout is damn easy to play when there is cursecatcher on board. And fighting to counter cursecatcher its even more funny.

Yeah, Merfolk are easy if you have red. I'm not maindecking Spouts but rather Explosives and Threads, but 3 sideboarded spouts and 4 REBs.

Even with Firespout Merfolk is not easy, I can tell you. You don't always have a Firespout, and as soon as your opponent knows you play Firespout, he's going to have a counter ready for it. If you can't resolve Firespout or multiple big guys like Tarmogoyf or RWM, you're a sitting duck. Merfolk will run over you. CounterTop is worthless in this match-up, as they do alot via Vial, or can simply cast alot in one turn using different mana costs. I'm not saying it's impossible; but it certainly isn't easy. Never underestimate Merfolk. Or Goblins.

I went to a 80+ people tournament last Sunday and went 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, hey Merfolk! 3-1, hey Zoo! 3-2, 4-2, Vial Wizards 4-3 (play error, I was pretty tired). So, in my experience: Merfolk is doable, from testing, but it can always go nuts and you simply don't stand a chance.

You made something wrong on my last 120+ tournament i beat zoo, goyfsligh & merfolk with this japanese list.

First, Countertop isn't bad. Top searches your creatures and Firespout and if you prevent you opponent from having a Vial, the only thing you have to do is probably put a 3cc creature on top and you'll win. Right?

Second, Firespout is definitely not needed to fight off Merfolk. Pridemage + Umezawa's Jitte is way stronger than Firespout + Trygon Predator. But that's just my opinion. I really don't care if you think otherwise, because no matter what arguments I would give, you won't convinced. So I'll just keep that out.

Third, I don't think we should focus anymore on Merfolk so much since Goblins will be played more frequently than Merfolk, Goblin Instigator will be released in just one week (I guess?). Merfolk can't block Piledriver (and cant do anything about it) and therefore will lose its interest in the Legacy field. It just cannot fight off Piledriver. And since Goblins will be played more frequently, it will loose every single time. So I think it won't be played as much as now. Atleast, that's what I'll expect.
Goblins on the other hand, with 8 Lackey effects and 4 Vials, will be so much harder, than you might think. I tested it and if you opponent gets enough goblins it just because inevitable that you'll loose. One lucky Ringleader will mean that you'll loose. Topdecks from your opponent means that you might loose etc.
The fact that Rhox War Monx is Blue is another weak point of the creature that really comes forward in this matchup. They can simply block with Piledriver or attack (for 11 probably, every blow).

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

Third, I don't think we should focus anymore on Merfolk so much since Goblins will be played more frequently than Merfolk, Goblin Instigator will be released in just one week (I guess?). Merfolk can't block Piledriver (and cant do anything about it) and therefore will lose its interest in the Legacy field. It just cannot fight off Piledriver.

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Didn't I just say not to underestimate Merfolk? Besides the fact that Goblins doesn't always have a Piledriver, Mutavaults can block him, and usually kill him in the process. If you look at Nightmare's list, I think you'll see quite a few answers to things such as a Piledriver. I'm not saying it's a good match-up, but it's certainly not as crappy as you describe it.

Anyway, why are we discussing Merfolk vs. Goblins in here?

The thing is, at about the same time the new restricted list will go into effect, which will result in an increase in combo, if only by a small amount. Merfolk is well-known for handling combo well, whereas Goblins, as a linear aggro strategy, tends to be vulnerable to such strategies.

About the japanese List:

I really wanna have some basics, at least a Forest.

Without green you cannot acces you wincons and the Predator, which can be quite a hassle sometimes.

What to cut, a Fetchland or a Tropical?


And is there a way to squeeze a Plains in as well? Or else a MotM is game over...

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Originally Posted by paK0

About the japanese List:

I really wanna have some basics, at least a Forest.

Without green you cannot acces you wincons and the Predator, which can be quite a hassle sometimes.

What to cut, a Fetchland or a Tropical?

And is there a way to squeeze a Plains in as well? Or else a MotM is game over...

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Pre-Zendikar, that was a hassle because running Windswept Heath/Wooded Foothills made you unable to hit Volcanic Islands/Tundra with some of your fetchlands. Post-Zendikar you could run a Forest and Plains as well a lot more smoothly using Misty Rainforest. Sample suggestion for the Japanese list:

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Well, the thing im most concerned about is that going for the plains was possible before, yet the japanese player did not go for it:

Im almost 100% certain that a Forest is right, but im not sure about the Plains.
Mb the japanese don't play DS?

The top 8 at the Japanese Legacy Championships had one deck running Wasteland/Port and no Blood Moon effects in the entire top 8. So it may have been right to be greedy in that metagame. And the deck isn't cold to a resolved Magus of the Moon, that just happens to turn on Firespout off every land in the deck but the 2 Islands. A resolved Blood Moon is another story of course.

Played in a 10 man legacy tournament yesterday, if anyone is curious here is my report...

Rd1 vs Dragonstorm (new player who doesnt know much about the deck)
Gm1 Cb + Top come online and goyf swings for 3 a bunch of turns... Lotus bloom gets countered by CB + Land and its gg.
Gm2 is same as he does not board at all, I bring in 4 BEBs and 2 Teegs.

1-0 2-0

Rd2 vs GB aggro
Gm1 He sees only 1 smother and my 2 goyfs are too much to handle since I shackle his threats.
Gm2 He is cold to Bob + Jitte as Bob swings for 12 shortly. Shackles is amazing again.

2-0 4-0

Rd3 vs GeddonStaxx
We talk about ID'ing since he wants to order chinese food and we rather play EDH and take our chances in rd4. Neither one like the matchup.
I know its bad for me, like 35/65... Anyways we ID.
2-0-1 4-0-1

Rd4 vs SuiBlack w/ Sinkholes & Wastelands
Gm1 I don't play out any of my lands except for fetchlands for a while and spell Snare his t2 Hymn.. I trade my 2 swords for his 2 tombstalkers and finally I resolve a shackles and a cb top is in play but he has a Shade w/ Jitte equipped and I cannot steal it as I am tapped out on 4 lands.
I have a Bob and 2 Goyfs (4/5) with which I swung hoping he would block w/ shade cuz he could only pump it to 4/3. He took 8 and went to a modest 23.
He swung back w/ his Shade and pumped it all the way, at this point I knew bob's use won't be much more than jitte fodder so I threw him in front of the Shade. I could not afford to take 9 as he had 7 swamps as I was at 9. Bob dies valiantly and I draw my 5th Island and shackle the Shade in hopes he punts and doesnt make it a 6/5 in response.. He gains 4 life in response and I have a shade.. Since he has no other dudes, I have no intention of swinging with the shade and giving him Jitte counters so the Shade sits back and I crash into him w/ 2 Goyfs for 3-4 turns and CB+Top hold down the fort.
Gm2 He has a t1 needle which he names before I let it resolve "Shackles". I let it resolve as I have 3 Pridemages in my deck and I can win w/o shackles.
We trade blows and I finally get a pridemage which he decides to Smother and I have the 1 mana to pop his Needle. I draw my Shackles off the top and play them. Game ends here as he cant play any threats and I assemble my CB+Top and get goyf on him.
At one point I stole his Tombstalker cuz I only had 4 lands in play and I sandbagged the 4th on top of my library so that way he would play the Tombstalker. I kindly played my 5th source and wrecked w/ shackles.

3-0-1 6-0-1

Top4 as the tourney is small..

Rd5 vs Leyline + Helm of Obedience Smallpox.dec
Gm1 he assembles hard cast Leyline and hardcast Helm but has no mana to activate I frantically shuffle w/ my 2 fetchlands + top looking for k-grip or pridemage and finally see it on my last fetch, I pray he doesnt have a land drop, and he doesnt, so I take my turn and blow up his helm... talk about luck.
I assemble amazing shackles and he cant win from there as I have 10 lands + k-grip in my hand.
Gm2 is much of the same only his 1st turn ritual is a Sword of Light and Shadow, I follow up w/ a Top since I know he has no threats/hymn or he would have played it.. I have spell snare in hand hoping for the best. He plays land and passes - which vs black decks on turn2 is a huge sign of relief.
I assemble... you guessed it - shackles and win after I needle (from the board) his helm.

4-0-1 8-0-1

Rd6 (finals) vs Type2 UGb Good dudes w/ Force of wills and some extended duals. He had primal command, shriekmaw, mulldrifter, glen-elendra, llanowar elves, birds of paradise... and Force of wills.
I asked him how he beat Dredge in rd3 and he told me "I evoked mulldrifter"... GG.
So anyways, game 1 I go CB+Top and lock him out w/ Force of will on top :D
I let him resolve Glen as I have 2 Goyfs and I don't care about some 2/2 faerie.
Gm2 I keep a shaky hand of 4 lands, spell snare, force and shackles hoping to blow him wide open w/ the shackles but he goes t1 duress which I force cuz I don't want him to know its terrible and he forces me back (Sad face).
He tells me "oh wow your hand is terrible" as he takes my only non-land card (shackles).
I proceed to topdeck a SDT like a champ but even w/ the 4 fetchlands game ends sadly as he has an answered glen + mulldrifter wooping me every turn.
I keep a monster hand Gm3 w/ Bob, Goyf, Swords, CB, Top, 2 lands.
I resolve t1 top which I sense he has a force but doesnt go for it.. t2 I don't top deck force and he forces my balance, t3 I play Goyf and after he goes T4 glen I play shackles which he forces again.. HE untaps and casts Ponders and I generate massive CA w/ bob and put my 2nd goyf into play which bashes for 6 as we had an artifact and enchantment to go w/ creature instant sorcery and land in the yard.
I make small work of him with the 2 goyfs and thats match.

5-0-1 10-1-1

My list:

41 Spells
4 Counterbalance
4 Top
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder
3 Daze
2 Spell snare
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Dark Confidant
1 Krosan Grip
2 Vedalken Shackles

19 Lands
2 Island
2 Underground sea
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

SB was:
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Trygon Predator
1 Pithing needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte

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Originally Posted by JoeChaos

It's true, I ran this, and wouldn't change a single card
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=29845

Bob is so good, one of my play of the days were having countertop out, the played bob, and I let it resolve, just so I could untap and sower it.

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Hi, I really like Bob as well. Have you posted a tournament report somewhere with you sideboard choices/strategy?

I am looking to update my list for an undefined metagame. I know I will get some dredge, some zoo and control decks.

Bob is great, but red has proved better for me. I play 2 MD and 1 SB Threads of Disloyalty, ridiculous against Bob builds as well as against Zoo.

I'm putting this together for the next legacy event I play at.

Old School Thresh

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra (may only have one though)
4 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Nantuko Monastery

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterspell

4 Swords
2 EE

SB
4 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Trygon Predator
2 Armageddon
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Pithing Needle

I might throw CB in there tho...

Edit- Yes Counterbalance will go in somewhere.

-4 Predict, +4 Top

-1 Counterspell, -1 Island, -1 Nantuko Monastery, +4 Counterbalance.

There, now it's competitive.

@Jak: First of all, this is the Counter-Top forum, not threshold forum.

Secondly, you don't have counter-top at all.

Thirdly, a single Relic of Progenitus / Crypt will hose the shit out of your deck.

Finally, Enforcer is just too much for too little. His Pro-Black doesn't stop Swords, Shackles or Sower from messing him up and Zoo will laugh at your lack of mana denial / counter-top to slow them down so you can actually play him. Goose is good in Tempo Thresh since you can disrupt your opponents mana and let the wild goose go to town, but without a means to slow your opponent down he's not nearly as good, and many creatures quickly overshadow him.This isn't Pre-Tarmogoyf era anymore: many creatures will come out (since you lack the two popular strats) and just take a shit on the goose.

Also, Counter-Top doesn't mesh well with Goose since that is 8 less permanents going into your yard.

I've tried at tournaments, but it isn't viable to make a tier-1 blue aggro-control deck without Wasteland/Stifle or Counter-Top. Those builds are just that powerful. I'm not trying to be an ass, but classic-Threshold died out for a reason.