[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Serbitar

I don't know if you get really lucky dredges... For me the situation has come up countless times, that you dredge two Moebas and two Bridges (and at least one Therapy), which is not enough for FKZ (or Witness, if you have no mana floating), but allows for Hypnotist to win the game. This is especially true in those games, where you don't get a totally busted Breakthrough.

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Or you could just name with the Therapy one of the one or two cards that can beat you in the current situation and keep your board intact.

That's the other half of my point. By the time you Dread Return a Hypnotist, most of the cards in your opponent's hand are probably irrelevant. And most of the cards that are relevant cost zero or one mana, so he's probably not holding them back for you to discard. Unless you're Dread Returning and using Sadistic Hypnotist before your opponent takes a turn, they're probably going to play most of their relevant cards on their first turn.

Countermagic is relevant when you're trying to resolve a Dread Return, but since you need to resolve one to get a Hypnotist, he's not really better in the face of countermagic.

Crypts, Relics, and Explosives get played on the first turn or as soon as they're drawn. Hypnotist isn't really useful against these cards unless he's in play before your opponent has a chance to resolve them.

White removal is relevant, but also instant speed and costs one mana. And if they're holding one with an open white mana, you're only going to be able to discard two cards with Hypnotist at most.

Your opponent's creatures are usually irrelevant since you make more creatures faster. Creatures like Mogg Fanatic that can remove Bridges on a whim usually cost one mana.

I guess he's good against stuff like Pernicious Deed, Firespout, and Wrath of God. But these cards are easy to play around --- just keep a few non-token creatures around to rebuild your army.

I don't see how Sadistic Hypnotist is really useful unless he's coming down turn one or two in a situation where you can't just win. There are so few cards that are actually relevant against us. I've been happy with just Cabal Therapy and Unmask to remove problem cards while the rest of their hand sits there uselessly against a horde of zombies.

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Originally Posted by Jaynel

Hypnotist allows you to "win"

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That's how I feel about Hypnotist. Flame-Kin Zealot and Eternal Witness/Sphinx of Lost Truths allow you to win without quotation marks.

Parcher, thanks for really nice sideboard plans. I'm wondering if you have any sideboard plans in the mirror?

I'm new to the deck so this may seem a stupid question:
let's say I crack led. Deep analysis goes in the yard and only one dredger. The same could be with land, led play breakthrough. In response crack led and just 1 dredger goes to the yard.
I dredge and 1 see other dredgers. Since I see other dredgers can I continue to dredge, or must I draw the remaining cards?
Hope that you understood what I meant..

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Originally Posted by pippo84

I'm new to the deck so this may seem a stupid question:
let's say I crack led. Deep analysis goes in the yard and only one dredger. The same could be with land, led play breakthrough. In response crack led and just 1 dredger goes to the yard.
I dredge and 1 see other dredgers. Since I see other dredgers can I continue to dredge, or must I draw the remaining cards?
Hope that you understood what I meant..

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yes... each draw is an individual action so if you dregde more dredgers of of the preceeding draw you can substitute further draws by dredging

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

yes... each draw is an individual action so if you dregde more dredgers of of the preceeding draw you can substitute further draws by dredging

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Ok thanks! I tried the deck a little bit and did as you said and the deck seemed to work. Then my friends told me the opposite and it became a little klunky..

This is the list I played, the deck was lent my by another person that wasen't there during playtesting. It's quite different from what I read in the previous posts..

4 Cephalid Coloseum
3 Mines
3 Petals
4 Led
4 Breakthrough
2 Careful Study
4 Deep Analysis
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
3 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot
1 River Kelpie

The cards I didn't like were Careful Study. The rest was ok, and Kelpie was really strong. I wanted often to have a second mana source to cast DA even without led..

What do you think?

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Originally Posted by pippo84

Ok thanks! I tried the deck a little bit and did as you said and the deck seemed to work. Then my friends told me the opposite and it became a little klunky..

This is the list I played, the deck was lent my by another person that wasen't there during playtesting. It's quite different from what I read in the previous posts..

4 Cephalid Coloseum
3 Mines
3 Petals
4 Led
4 Breakthrough
2 Careful Study
4 Deep Analysis
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
3 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot
1 River Kelpie

The cards I didn't like were Careful Study. The rest was ok, and Kelpie was really strong. I wanted often to have a second mana source to cast DA even without led..

What do you think?

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You could play with Eternal Witness to replay a LED or Petal.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

stuff

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When you get to DR, yes you are winning in that situation, but you don't always get to FKZ ftw. Sometimes you get only like 2-3 zombies. In those turn 1-2 situations hypnotist is much better, since you get to rape their hand.

If you are having 2 dr targets, and they are fkz and a guy that draws cards, you cannot rely on getting to combo them off on turns 1-2 anyway. You need more dread returns and more targets to be consistent with your combo. I prefer to have my dr targets do what I expect them to do (fkz and sphinx can come in the wrong order f.e.), and I play ichorid much more in a "disruptive aggro" kind of way anyways.

I think it's close enough to be considered preference/metagame/playstyle question, but I would encourage you to try the hypnotists out. It's worth the try really. Having to pass the turn also means pretty much shit since they can hardly do anything to make you lose if they have 0 cards and like, two lands.

Anyway, I've liked them.

Well, Parcher already pointed out how an early hypnotist can cripple the opponent because they discard lands too... Plus, with all of the must counter that Ichorid has, you should theoretically run the other deck out of countermagic early and then your DR will resolve, thats why we have unmask and therapy. Against nonblue, hypno still seems effective because if you are in the race, and they have no hand, then you should win the race.....

Now, i know this is all variable to draws and proper mulligans, but still should be the over all gameplan, unless you've had "great success"(borat voice) with the fkz.

4 GOLGARI GRAVE-TROLL
4 STINKWEED IMP
3 GOLGARI THUG
4 TIRELESS TRIBE
4 NARCOEMEBA
4 BLOODGHAST
1 SADISTIC HYPNOTIS
1 CEPHALID SAGE
1 FLAME-KIN ZEALOT

4 BREAKTHROUGH
4 CARFUL STUDY
4 CABAL THERAPY
4 BRIDGE FROM BELOW
3 DREAD RETURN

4 UNDISCOVERED PARADISE
4 GEMSTONE MINE
4 CEPHALID COLOSSEUM
2 DAKMOR SALVAGE
1 CITY OF BRASS

SB
4 PITHING NEEDLE
4 CHAIN OF VAPOR
3 FORCE OF WILL
2 ANCIENT GRUDGE
1 ANCESTOR'S CHOSEN
1 SADISTIC HYPNOTIST

This list just Top 8'd at the Philly 5K.

Just wondering what you guys think of this decks power, does Bloodghast make Ichorid invalid now?

Does this list push non-LED Ichorid into the superior version?

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

4 GOLGARI GRAVE-TROLL
4 STINKWEED IMP
3 GOLGARI THUG
4 TIRELESS TRIBE
4 NARCOEMEBA
4 BLOODGHAST
1 SADISTIC HYPNOTIS
1 CEPHALID SAGE
1 FLAME-KIN ZEALOT

4 BREAKTHROUGH
4 CARFUL STUDY
4 CABAL THERAPY
4 BRIDGE FROM BELOW
3 DREAD RETURN

4 UNDISCOVERED PARADISE
4 GEMSTONE MINE
4 CEPHALID COLOSSEUM
2 DAKMOR SALVAGE
1 CITY OF BRASS

SB
4 PITHING NEEDLE
4 CHAIN OF VAPOR
3 FORCE OF WILL
2 ANCIENT GRUDGE
1 ANCESTOR'S CHOSEN
1 SADISTIC HYPNOTIST

This list just Top 8'd at the Philly 5K.

Just wondering what you guys think of this decks power, does Bloodghast make Ichorid invalid now?

Does this list push non-LED Ichorid into the superior version?

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Is that Force of Will in the sideboard? Is there enough blue cards to run it?

Apparently it's "yes" to both questions ><

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Originally Posted by Stall_19

Is that Force of Will in the sideboard? Is there enough blue cards to run it?

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You might want to read the report. For one thing, I love hearing about hordes of flaming zombies madly rushing towards an unsuspecting opponent, and for another, his game threes seemed to run along the lines of "I force of Willed his [important, Ichorid crushing card] and my opponent died of a cardiac arrest brought on by shock."

It really should be placed in the LEDless thread though--he doesn't like the LEDs. Cutting leds works well with the bloodghasts too, as cutting the LEDs allows/requires him to run more lands, which he can then use to animate the vampires.

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

4 GOLGARI GRAVE-TROLL
4 STINKWEED IMP
3 GOLGARI THUG
4 TIRELESS TRIBE
4 NARCOEMEBA
4 BLOODGHAST
1 SADISTIC HYPNOTIS
1 CEPHALID SAGE
1 FLAME-KIN ZEALOT

4 BREAKTHROUGH
4 CARFUL STUDY
4 CABAL THERAPY
4 BRIDGE FROM BELOW
3 DREAD RETURN

4 UNDISCOVERED PARADISE
4 GEMSTONE MINE
4 CEPHALID COLOSSEUM
2 DAKMOR SALVAGE
1 CITY OF BRASS

SB
4 PITHING NEEDLE
4 CHAIN OF VAPOR
3 FORCE OF WILL
2 ANCIENT GRUDGE
1 ANCESTOR'S CHOSEN
1 SADISTIC HYPNOTIST

This list just Top 8'd at the Philly 5K.

Just wondering what you guys think of this decks power, does Bloodghast make Ichorid invalid now?

Does this list push non-LED Ichorid into the superior version?

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IDK about the Ghast. Id still with Ichorid, 3 power and an instant token-generator at end of turn. The list above I think is a little slow compared to LED Ichorid. Props though for taking it to the T8.

No LED-based Dredge in the T8 apparently.

Greetings, true ichorid faithful and prospective ichorid lovers alike. I've lurked long enough and feel it's time to actually post. For those of you that like Cephalid Sage, I suggest trying out Sphinx of Lost Truths instead. I think it's strictly better in every way. (LEDless Ichorid could make an argument against it I suppose, if they want to hang onto that one extra card).

A 3/5 with Flying for 3uu that just dropped in Zendikar.
When Sphinx of Lost Truths enters the battlefield, draw three cards. Then if it wasn't kicked (for a blue and a colorless), discard three cards.

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Originally Posted by Spaced Ghost

Greetings, true ichorid faithful and prospective ichorid lovers alike. I've lurked long enough and feel it's time to actually post. For those of you that like Cephalid Sage, I suggest trying out Sphinx of Lost Truths instead. I think it's strictly better in every way. (LEDless Ichorid could make an argument against it I suppose, if they want to hang onto that one extra card).

A 3/5 with Flying for 3uu that just dropped in Zendikar.
When Sphinx of Lost Truths enters the battlefield, draw three cards. Then if it wasn't kicked (for a blue and a colorless), discard three cards.

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Most lists havent run a "sage" effect in favor of Eternal Witness. Im testing Sphinx in my non-led build, he seems like he could be very well worth it, in LED builds however Im not sure the extra draw is needed since Eternal witness can take back much more to aid the deck out of tight spots

Just tested the Bloodghast build (No LED and no Ichorid) and what I can say is that its more of a conservative approach to Dredge. It lacks the explosiveness compared to LED Dredge though. Its more of a slowly but surely one. Will test further and see what the best build is.

No one tried River Kelpie? I think he's really strong!

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Originally Posted by pippo84

No one tried River Kelpie? I think he's really strong!

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I've played with River Keplie for a while. Generally, it's somewhere between Cephalid Sage and a cantrip. On rare occasion he gets you there, or even overmills (draws too many cards).

It's a nice card, but it's too combo oriented and lackluster when you're on the ropes.

Why is the discussion going around in circles? People should read the thread then ask questions.