[M10] General Discussion on Rules Changes

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Originally Posted by TsumiBand

Can't we just wait for players to accept that (a) playing by the rules isn't cheating (b) yeah, you can do stuff with damage on the stack (c) learning how to do it makes you a better player? Why does knowing the rules have to be cheating dejure?

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Because they people who actually buy booster packs whine about it too much. Having to actually learn the rules to the game they're playing is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much effort.

And I agree with Nihil. Simply having creatures not deal damage if they leave play seems like what they should have done in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Pinder

Exactly.

Also, keep in mind that under these new rules, pumping and damage prevention work differently during combat.

If he swings with a 3/3 and you block with 3 1/1s and use Healing Salve on the first one, he still only has to assign 1 damage to the first blocker and can still kill the second and third blocker, even though the first blocker stays alive.

Which is super intuitive.

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Ha! I just started actually typing a reply saying that wasn't correct and went back to the article and read the following line in reference to the 2/2 Suntail Hawk protected by Bandage: "I need to assign just 2 damage, but I might as well assign 3 so it'll be destroyed"

...wow. That is super intuitive [/sarcasm]

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Originally Posted by Pinder

Exactly.

Also, keep in mind that under these new rules, pumping and damage prevention work differently during combat.

If he swings with a 3/3 and you block with 3 1/1s and use Healing Salve on the first one, he still only has to assign 1 damage to the first blocker and can still kill the second and third blocker, even though the first blocker stays alive.

Which is super intuitive.

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Wow. Didn't know that's how it worked. I need to re-read the article a dozen more times. So... when the article refers to lethal damage, they really mean toughness printed on the physical card, right?

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Originally Posted by Finn

You are calling me stupid? You disagree. That's fine. But if you want to call me stupid perhaps you could come up with something - anything at all to support your claim.

EDIT: BTW, lemme 'splain the new rules. "controller=owner"
Done.
How is that going to require a lengthy explanation?

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Because it's not always true (i.e. Donate, Sleeper Agent) and not even true for tokens (i.e. Grab the Reins etc).

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Originally Posted by TsumiBand

You know what's really counterintuitive?

Banging your head against a pile of bricks until a leaf comes out, and that leaf turns you into a yiff that can fly and kill people with its tail.

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Thank you for killing Mario for me forever.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Wow. Didn't know that's how it worked. I need to re-read the article a dozen more times. So... when the article refers to lethal damage, they really mean toughness printed on the physical card, right?

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Not quite. Lethal will have to cover current power/toughness, but NOT prevention effects.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Wow. Didn't know that's how it worked. I need to re-read the article a dozen more times. So... when the article refers to lethal damage, they really mean toughness printed on the physical card, right?

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Yes. Even under the new rules, "the amount of damage it actually takes to kill the creature" is not necessarily the same thing as the technical definition for "lethal damage" (which is toughness - any damage already on the creature).

Of course, many people (especially newer players) will assume, just like you did, that "the damage it takes to kill a creature" and "lethal damage" are the same thing. Which is reasonable, but not true, so we still have a nonintuitive interaction and no matter how we slice it we're going to have to explain the rules to new players.

Just because we have a different set of non-intuitive interactions to explain to new players doesn't mean somehow that they're a better set of nonintuitive interactions.

If anything, the new blocking rules are more complex.

Now that's counter-intuitive to the entire segment on blocking.

I've been playing this game since Revised and this is the stupidest thing I've seen come out of them ever(I'm including Homelands and Fallen Empires in there). The Sixth edition rules revamp was needed. There was alot of holes that it fixed, while it did leave some, it was an improvement.

This pile of garbage is just making the game into Poke-GO: The Gathering. I'll give them to the next expansion, but I so much as see a card that looks like a trap or a trainer, I'm out.

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Originally Posted by Brushwagg

This pile of garbage is just making the game into Poke-GO: The Gathering. I'll give them to the next expansion, but I so much as see a card that looks like a trap or a trainer, I'm out.

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What about assembling contraptions? :smile:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=136151

Hey you know what's intuitive? Casting giant growth on one of your blockers and having it prevent damage to your other blocker.

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Originally Posted by Jason

What about assembling contraptions? :smile:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=136151

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Thats both terrifying and awesome at the same time.

And Nihil, and I think Quicksilver from a few pages back, are right - it would have been a LOT more intuitive to just have creatures that arent there for assigning damage not assign damage. Actually, they kinda showed that in the article too, didnt he blow up the wall before dealing damage?

The confusion between lethal damage and damage = toughness is probably going to be the single biggest hurdle to overcome mentally for me. I know I had to read the suntail hawk explanation a few times before it clicked. It didnt help that they killed it because he "might as well" without explaining it.

I don't know if anyone has seen this yet but it's definitely a different perspective:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/m...The_World.html

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Originally Posted by quicksilver

Hey you know what's intuitive? Casting giant growth on one of your blockers and having it prevent damage to your other blocker.

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I know, right?

At least they figured out a way to make toughness at least as relevant as power. Sort of.

You still have to be tricky about it, you can't just control an Honor Guard and save the day by pumping it to a 1/5, the attacker is the decider in terms of picking blocking order and they can decide to put Honor Guard last in line if it's prudent.

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Originally Posted by quicksilver

Hey you know what's intuitive? Casting giant growth on one of your blockers and having it prevent damage to your other blocker.

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I'm not sure if you were going for sarcasm there, but in any case what you described is perfectly intuitive. Having your one big blocker tie up their attacker and protect your other blockers makes sense from a flavor standpoint, at least.

What doesn't make sense is why that same blocker, when impervious to the same damage but not actually any bigger, can't protect your other blockers.

edit - Although it makes less sense when several small creatures block one big creature without pump, and for some reason he has to plow through them in order like they lined up for it or something.

"Alright, now it's your turn....*SMACK*...."

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

I don't know if anyone has seen this yet but it's definitely a different perspective:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/m...The_World.html

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My main disagreement with the article is he is assuming that the changes make the game more intuitive and streamlined. I think they are less intuitive and clunky.

His argument "I lose a point of cleverness to the rules, but it is a point I am willing to spend for the game to overall be streamlined and good. " hinges on the fact that the new rules are infact more streamlined and good, which I disagree with. They are more confusing especially to new players.

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

I'm starting to think that the best compromise between sensibleness and functionality would have been achieved by simply ruling that creatures don't deal their combat damage if they're not in play. [I]

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Yes. (Or in play and attacking/blocking, if you must.)

Why should it be able to protect the other blockers? Fuck man, you threw a bunch of Squirrels in front of a Krosan Tusker, the fuck did you reckon would happen?

If I were a Krosan Tusker, and I'm not, but if I were, and I got blocked by a shit ton of Squirrels, why the fuck would I waste my time beating up the one wearing Slagwurm Armor while the rest climb all up on my shit? Fuck that, I'd stomp six of those fuckers back into the asshole of the earth until the rest finally tear me down.

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Originally Posted by Pinder

I'm not sure if you were going for sarcasm there, but in any case what you described is perfectly intuitive. Having your one big blocker tie up their attacker and protect your other blockers makes sense from a flavor standpoint, at least.

What doesn't make sense is why that same blocker, when impervious to the same damage but not actually any bigger, can't protect your other blockers.

edit - Although it makes less sense when several small creatures block one big creature without pump, and for some reason he has to plow through them in order like they lined up for it or something.

"Alright, now it's your turn....*SMACK*...."

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Because I want MY Tarmogoyf to smash YOUR smaller creature and kill it should it get in the way of it's vicious rampage to deal you 3-7 damage.

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Originally Posted by TsumiBand

Why should it be able to protect the other blockers? Fuck man, you threw a bunch of Squirrels in front of a Krosan Tusker, the fuck did you reckon would happen?

If I were a Krosan Tusker, and I'm not, but if I were, and I got blocked by a shit ton of Squirrels, why the fuck would I waste my time beating up the one wearing Slagwurm Armor while the rest climb all up on my shit? Fuck that, I'd stomp six of those fuckers back into the asshole of the earth until the rest finally tear me down.

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http://sales.starcitygames.com//card...?product=55546

Think about how large a Squirrel normally is (in our world).

Look at the Tusker. It's power/toughness means it's DRAGON size.

So, just how BIG are those Squirrels anyways?

This is probably messy under the old rules as well...

Attacker has:
Skyshroud Behemoth 10/10
Force of Nature 8/8 Trample

Defender has:
Two-Headed Giant of Foriys 4/4
Two-Headed Dragon 4/4 Flyer
Benalish Hero 1/1 Banding

Attacker swings with both creatures.
Defender blocks Force of Nature with all 3 creatures (attacker orders Hero,Giant,Dragon)
Defender blocks Behemoth with Giant & Dragon (attacker orders Giant, Dragon)

How much trample damage can the attacker get through?