All B/R update speculation.

FoolofaTook hit the nail right on the head. Legacy could not be more diverse right now. Not only are the winners of the tournaments very diserve but even the top 8's are very different each time.

The only issue I think needs to be addressed is cards that are banned because they create a barrier to entry. Illusionary mask could come off the list because its price is currently less than underground sea and stifle seems better. I can't remember, what other cards are banned for this reason?

Oh, and its completly insane but I would love to play Oath in Legacy....

Roughly 50%, or higher, of most Legacy Top 8's are either Force of Will decks or Tarmogoyf decks (if not both). Legacy clearly could be more diverse, theoretically if not practically. It's worth asking if such changes would be practical. My conclusion was in the case of Force fo Will, no, but in the case of Tarmogoyf, yes.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

This is why WotC shouldn't touch anything about Legacy right now with a 10 foot pole.

The winners of the last 14 events with more than 100 participants:

Aggro No Loam (UGW) -
March 13th Gigantic Legacy of 40 Duals & Fetches @ Jupiter Games!!

Lands - SCG 5K Indy

Reanimator (UB) - GP Madrid

Merfolk (UG) - GPT Madrid 2010 - Bourgoin-Jallieu / France

ANT - Eternal Party '09 Legacy

Zoo (RGW) - SCG 5K Dallas

Dream Halls (URB) - German Magic I Legacy

Reanimator (UB) - Open Nederlands Kampioenschap Legacy 2009

Bant CounterTop (UGW) - Lotus Moxen Bazaar Legacy @ Jupiter Games in Vestal, NY

Canadian Threshold (UGR) - DragonsLeague Master of Geddon Padova

Bant Loam (GWU) - Bourgoin-Jallieu : Last Chance CdF Legacy

Canadian Threshold (UGR) - Master of Geddon II

ANT - Ovino 4, Milan

Belcher - Mercadiade 2009 Legacy

That's going back 6 months and we see 14 large events won by 11 different decks representing 5 different themes of play (aggro, aggro control, control, storm combo, non-storm combo.) We see three decks that have won more than once, and none that have won three times. That's like a deck builder's paradise.

If WotC messes with anything they are fixing something that's not broken and that can't be good.

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Everything was fine before they unbanned Dream Halls, Entomb and Metalworker. I'm not saying let's unban everything. Maybe we should test some cards thoroughly and see if they are what we think they are.

Perhaps I'm missing something but is there any reason anyone would want to play Mind's Desire over Ad Nauseum?

Not killing yourself with it?

Yes, but probably not enough reasons.

I dont think its mean.

You can play 4 with no downfall in the main .... and you can Burning Wish for it (not with 4 in the main).

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

Everything was fine before they unbanned Dream Halls, Entomb and Metalworker. I'm not saying let's unban everything. Maybe we should test some cards thoroughly and see if they are what we think they are.

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Metalworker is ruining the format, i agree.

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Originally Posted by theintangiblefatman

Yes, but probably not enough reasons.

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The difference is one measly mana.


Your deck doesn't have to run as much protection because your critical spell is uncounterable. That means you can devote more slots to having fast mana, deck manipulation, or answers for static defenses, like Chalice, 3sphere, or Countertop.

You don't have to worry about life, so you will typically have one extra turn to go off against Zoo or other beatdown aggro. With a full turn, you can almost certainly come up with one mana.

So you do better against beatdown aggro, and better against control.



If, instead of comparing it to Ad Nauseam you compare it to Ill-Gotten Gains (which sees wide play as a backup plan just for the aggro), you will see more clearly: IGG costs more, it's harder to use, and it requires more protection, but it still sees a lot of play.

Mind's Desire functions as both Ad Nauseam and IGG, only it actually does both roles better.

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

Mind's Desire functions as both Ad Nauseam and IGG, only it actually does both roles better.

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Not really. :u::u: is actually relevant here. The other cards are on-color for your Rituals, so there are more conditions under which you're able to cast them. Getting Mind's Desire to easy castability requires changes to the mana, probably with the addition of more artifact mana or more five-color lands, but changing the land base will make you more vulnerable to Wasteland disabling your engine.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Not really. :u::u: is actually relevant here. The other cards are on-color for your Rituals, so there are more conditions under which you're able to cast them. Getting Mind's Desire to easy castability requires changes to the mana, probably with the addition of more artifact mana or more five-color lands, but changing the land base will make you more vulnerable to Wasteland disabling your engine.

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UU may be relevant, but its also a wincon that is immune to Force of Will. It would make combo even more awesome.

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Originally Posted by loveisgreen

Perhaps I'm missing something but is there any reason anyone would want to play Mind's Desire over Ad Nauseum?

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Because Mind's Desire lets you play the spells for free, and theres the possibility of chaining Desires together for extra broken. Not that storm combo generally has mana problems after resolving either spell, but it's even more certainly 'I win'.

I've typed up much longer posts on Mind's Desire on MTGSalvation before, so I will keep this brief. I find that, in general, people greatly overestimate Mind's Desire.

As Aggro_zombies said, double blue is actually much more difficult to generate than you would imagaine without LED mana. The second most reliable way is to slow roll it until you hit three or four lands, but the more lands you play the less consitent your Desire becomes; it's a catch 22. Using LED mana means that Desire is no longer "immune to Force of Will" as people are fond of saying. On that note...

It requires at least five copies of Desire (including the original one) to win with any consistency. This has a couple of consequences, the most obvious of which is that playing Desire over Ad Nasueam/Doomsday/IGG kills your black match ups. The less obvious consequence is that your opponent Forcing one of your five copies significantly decreases your chances of winning. Each card in your hand being very valuable also makes Mystical Tutor worse.

Desire also requires you to play four copies main deck (or three plus a bunch of wishes). This is often quoted as a benefit, but in reality it takes away protection slots and makes you reliant on Brainstorm to put additional copies back into the deck so that your first Desire can actually hit them. Protection in general has to be kept to a minimum, because hitting protection off of Desire sucks.

Preempting one final point, yes, Desire decks can play Force of Will if they want to. Force of Will is really bad in the deck for a variety of reasons.

I played a couple of Desire builds in Classic for a while, and even with Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, and Demonic Consultation legal the deck was still slower and less consistent than Ad Nauseam or Doomsday based decks.

Edit: come on guys; chaining Desires isn't a benefit of playing the card - it is a necessity to win with the card.

In Classic on MTGO, we have unrestricted use of Desire. The deck has finished in the money and is a good deck, but it has not half the placings of Ad-Naus-the players prefer a faster,on color,instant that with a storm count of 2 will draw your whole deck-sometimes you can desire for 7 and whiff-.

I've read that the B&R announcement comes out tomorrow, so only a few hours remaining. This might become interesting with all the fuss about the reserved list and all.

Declaring that Reserve List cards never will never be reprinted and a b/r announcement around the corner? Hrm.

Duals are Banned, have fun Legacy.

No changes.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...ly/feature/82b

so much optimism for nothing :(

hey at least the format did not change!

This hate for the format is getting really annoying. No changes, no changes, no changes. And stupid cards like Monolith are still banned.