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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
umbowta
I own 9 Underground Seas and I still hope you're wrong. $100 a piece is just too much. They should be somewhere around $20-30 for the sake of the game while maintaining collectibility. I don't want to sell any of mine, even though I could make a killing, because it's really all about the game. I like having extras so that I can have two or three decks built simultaneously without proxies.
There will come a point though, when even I will be driven from the game by the stupid high prices. Even now I'm pissed because I would like to own a playset of Abyssal Persecutors, however, at $20 a pop, I'm not willing to buy any. Combine that with the fact that the rest of the set is garbage with few exceptions, and I'm not going to rip open packs either. Stupid effin Mythic rares.
Well as I said before, you are one of the reasons of high prices yourself. Sitting on 9 U-Seas instead of the 4 you really only need decreases supply on the market and therefore lets the prices raise. Anyone owning more than a playset of old legacy staples has no right at all to complain about high prices.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
here will come a point though, when even I will be driven from the game by the stupid high prices.
How will you be driven from the game by "stupid high prices", if you have the cards necessary for play? Do you mean that the prices go above your everybody-has-a-price price, and you sell out? Then it's entirely your choice to quit and sell out. If you mean that you wont pay to play the latest hype deck (currently, it should be the show&tell-dream hall-progenitus)? If that is the case, then it is just a matter of play with what you've got. With 9 seas, I'd be surprised if you don't possess all the other staples for a huge variety of decks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shugyosha
Anyone owning more than a playset of old legacy staples has no right at all to complain about high prices.
Agreed! In fact, anyone with just ONE playset should be content with the prices and not complain about that particular set, let along more. :eek:
However, we get to argue our side about the possibility of reprints causing our staples to tank :tongue:. Even worse, once legacy becomes a format for all, what is stopping a huge number of YGO youngsters from entering the format ruining the competitive scene? As someone mentioned before, legacy is a game of variety and skill played by friendly (& wealthy) opponents, not some whiny 10-year-old who just ripped 2 goyfs and a berserk from some of the latest $9.99 legacy booster and decide to play it in his mono-green elf-ramp-avatar of might deck.
When you sit across from a board of blue duals, yard of fetches and 4 cards-in-hand, (at least for now) you can almost be sure that your opponent has spent his time and money wisely on the cards and researched enough to approximate your next move. Standard has always been the format of the time-rich spoilt youngsters, where they have all the time in the world to crack packs & keep up with the cards and the meta. When they get to our age and we 'catch up' in terms of time, and they in terms of wealth and skill, they are free to join us in playing the deepest and most interactive format in magic. While it is true that cards will cost them dearly, the legacy meta can be assured that all its best decks are piloted by well-read, if not seasoned, players.
For now, my view on the rising prices: irrelevant :cool:. For now, let's hope the Have-nots will have some Haves to borrow cards from before they hit the deep end. Lol. Needless to say, my view on any legacy staple reprints is...
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plus_ten
However, we get to argue our side about the possibility of reprints causing our staples to tank :tongue:. Even worse, once legacy becomes a format for all, what is stopping a huge number of YGO youngsters from entering the format ruining the competitive scene? As someone mentioned before, legacy is a game of variety and skill played by friendly (& wealthy) opponents, not some whiny 10-year-old who just ripped 2 goyfs and a berserk from some of the latest $9.99 legacy booster and decide to play it in his mono-green elf-ramp-avatar of might deck.
When you sit across from a board of blue duals, yard of fetches and 4 cards-in-hand, (at least for now) you can almost be sure that your opponent has spent his time and money wisely on the cards and researched enough to approximate your next move. Standard has always been the format of the time-rich spoilt youngsters, where they have all the time in the world to crack packs & keep up with the cards and the meta. When they get to our age and we 'catch up' in terms of time, and they in terms of wealth and skill, they are free to join us in playing the deepest and most interactive format in magic. While it is true that cards will cost them dearly, the legacy meta can be assured that all its best decks are piloted by well-read, if not seasoned, players.
For now, my view on the rising prices: irrelevant :cool:. For now, let's hope the Have-nots will have some Haves to borrow cards from before they hit the deep end. Lol. Needless to say, my view on any legacy staple reprints is...
Much more so than the price of staples, I strongly believe it's YOU, or people with attitudes similar to yours, that is the real barrier of entry to the format. For someone so interested in the price of your cards, it seems ridiculous to want the format where they all get used to become insular and isolated from the rest of the market. Take away the demand, and the supply is irrelevant. See: Morphling.
Instead of pretending to be better than all of those kids playing YuGiOh - and believe me, I make as much fun of them as anyone - maybe when they try to play Magic you could support them and encourage them. The thing is, all those little kids who play their stompy decks get beat a bunch, which does nothing but increase prize support at the events you play in. That is unless, of course, they beat you with their stompy decks, in which case your opinion is irrelevant since you're basically a low-skilled whiner, who thinks he should be able to buy his wins, rather than play for them. There is literally zero drawback to having every little kid in the world play in an event you win (or even make top 8 in), since it effects your own tournament by none, unless it's round 1 or 2.
You should be actively encouraging every kid with even the smallest spark of interest in playing Legacy - whether they play YuGiOh or Standard makes no difference at all when it comes to how much a TO pays out to the winners of an event. All you're doing by discouraging players is taking players out of the format (not a good thing, since more people means your cards are worth more), taking players out of events (which is equivalent to taking money out of your own pocket, if you assume you're good enough to actually win events), and complaining (annoying me. Not good.).
To those of us who have worked VERY hard to erase the idea of Legacy players being elitist and xenophobic, posts like this are like poison. You're undercutting all of the effort we've put into garnering interest in Legacy, by acting like an entitled child. Frankly, you make me sick.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Originally Posted by
Nightmare
To those of us who have worked VERY hard to erase the idea of Legacy players being elitist and xenophobic, posts like this are like poison. You're undercutting all of the effort we've put into garnering interest in Legacy, by acting like an entitled child. Frankly, you make me sick.
Amen.
These are my thoughts exactly. I've stirred some interest in the format with friends and people who quit the game, since they were able to play with all their old favoreds again in some tournaments. They don't play to win, but to have fun in a competitive environment.
Until last year, the financial argument I've always used that Legacy is cheaper to invest in then a year of standard in the long run. Which was also something that put more casual players into tournaments and made them better players overall.
Although the value of my collection has almost doubled over the last half year, I hate the rise in prices and I hate (detest seems better in place) the argument that a cost barrier will filter out all the anoying noobs and young people. Don't forget we all were noobs and/or young players once. If the older players at that time behaved the same as I see some people do now, I'm pretty sure a lot of us weren't still playing the game now.
Both the game and the format need new players to stay healthy. I know one of the reasons a lot of budget vintage players moved to legacy when the banned lists were separated, because legacy was a format where you could play all your old cards in a competitive format without the unreasonable cost barrier of the power cards (P9, Library, workshop, drain), I was one of the first of them (yea for me being the first Dutch member when only a handful of Europeans registered). The rise in cost can give Legacy a same sort of turn-off as happened to vintage and I think time has proven that isn't healthy, I've seen the turnout of vintage tournaments on the fall for 3 years now and the same thing will happen to Legacy.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plus_ten
When you sit across from a board of blue duals, yard of fetches and 4 cards-in-hand, (at least for now) you can almost be sure that your opponent has spent his time and money wisely on the cards and researched enough to approximate your next move.
You know, that's part of Legacy and I honestly do enjoy playing a match where it's likely that my opponent has the card in hand to trump my next move but I march into it anyhow because this particular match up really boils down to being a battle of attrition. Having said that (long winded statement), if that's all Legacy amounts to, the format is quite honestly horseshit. Thank god this isn't the case and there are just as many match ups where I'm at a complete loss as to what my next move should be. I love nothing better than being blown completely out of the water by some well though out, original, simple, cheap ($-wise), innovative strategy which may or may not develop into a standardized deck type.
The Legacy card pool is super-deep and I think people are really caught up on this top 10 decks / top 50 most played cards bullshit. It's really the format of innovation and just because a strategy is not placing top 8 does not mean said strategy is not viable. There are any number of reasons why it's not placing; not played by enough people, hasn't been discovered yet (this is a big one so get out there and innovate), not the right time in a given metagame, the pilot lacks the basic understanding of the game mechanics, etc.
If you hate the price of Tarmogoyf, play stupid shit like Mind Harness or Innocent Blood. If you hate graveyard strategies, play stupid shit like Tormods Crypt. If you hate Islands, play Choke. I've been playing for over 15 years and I don't have all the cards to make all the decks. If I want to test against something, I'll write on a basic land and play proxies. I've never felt like I need to have every hype card or this weeks top deck. Just look at Threshold players or Goblin players, they've been milking those decks for eons. Assholes who feel the pressure to need all the cards for all the decks but can't seem to muster the cash to pay for them are still just assholes at the end of the day.
Most players who I know that want to play competitively but lack the resources end up focusing on one deck. If they want to play something else, they borrow from a friend or trade out for the other cards. If a guy wants to horde a bunch of cards in his binder, that's no sweat off my balls and I don't see it factoring into the future success or failure of this format. If the game dies, you can have your cards cheap, if the game survives, you'll have someone to play with. What path would you choose?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shugyosha
Well as I said before, you are one of the reasons of high prices yourself. Sitting on 9 U-Seas instead of the 4 you really only need decreases supply on the market and therefore lets the prices raise. Anyone owning more than a playset of old legacy staples has no right at all to complain about high prices.
I'm not sitting on them, I'm using them. So it's not like I have some secret hoard of duals. They're in MtG decks, and I play MtG.
I have as much right to complain as everyone else. Get this, I want more people to be able to play this format. High prices for cards makes many potential legacy players turn away. High prices are bad for Legacy as a whole which make them bad for me despite my potential for financial gain. I hope we're just in a bubble fueled by speculators who get their greedy ass handed to them when these inflated prices induce a huge negative demand shock and prices plummet.
Like I said, duals should not be effin $100 a piece. It's just not a reasonable price. If I was looking to enter the format right now, I'd be just as pissed as I was when I cracked my first ever two full boxes of MtG...they were Revised boxes containing no p9. All I wanted to do was play MtG with my friends who had introduced me to the game. They all had power and I got none. Moxen went from $20 to $100 and the reaction was...get this...Type 1.5. I don't want to see that happen to Legacy as well. High Prices = Bad for the Format ==> I get to complain.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I've talked to various TOs and other players (I live in Standard Hell) and they all really believe Legacy is just a joke. I often get remarks like "Why don't you play a real man's format", and "How much money did you have to spend to win that match". The honest truth is that anyone who doesn't play the format DOES believe in the elitist community, which is why the format has taken so long to gain interest.
My weekly Legacy event is actually just a bunch of kids who can't even afford to play Standard, and it's just a mash of decks built out of commons and junk they found in an unsorted box at the shop. They are only going to come back for so long after getting destroyed by someone with that attitude before they move on to some other hobby like Yu Gi Oh or drugs. Fortunately, they are very easily influenced, so all it takes is a push in the right direction. We NEED these kids for this format to stay healthy, and I really believe it starts with us. There is no shortage on Legacy staples and they are more than willing to trade up for them. Some kid at my event was bashing people with Troll Ascetic and Armadillo Cloak and won 3 packs, one which contained an Elspeth. I gave him a Taiga for it and turned around, sold the Elspeth and bought my Taiga back off Ebay. I've outsourced at least 2 sets of Goyfs to these kids and it was a little work on my part, but I think if you aren't willing to do that work, get the fuck out of our way. I want my healthy format, how about you?
On a side note, why the HELL is Scroll Rack so expensive?
EDIT: By the way, Yu Gi Oh costs more than Magic. Judgment Dragon (a staple in the most popular deck) is $70. Mirror Force ( A staple in EVERY DECK) is $30. That's just the "Standard" format. It's also very skill intensive, and the people who are as dedicated to it as we are Legacy think the same thing of us. So lets all just try to get along :)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
loveisgreen
I've talked to various TOs and other players (I live in Standard Hell) and they all really believe Legacy is just a joke. I often get remarks like "Why don't you play a real man's format", and "How much money did you have to spend to win that match". The honest truth is that anyone who doesn't play the format DOES believe in the elitist community, which is why the format has taken so long to gain interest.
My weekly Legacy event is actually just a bunch of kids who can't even afford to play Standard, and it's just a mash of decks built out of commons and junk they found in an unsorted box at the shop. They are only going to come back for so long after getting destroyed by someone with that attitude before they move on to some other hobby like Yu Gi Oh or drugs. Fortunately, they are very easily influenced, so all it takes is a push in the right direction. We NEED these kids for this format to stay healthy, and I really believe it starts with us. There is no shortage on Legacy staples and they are more than willing to trade up for them. Some kid at my event was bashing people with Troll Ascetic and Armadillo Cloak and won 3 packs, one which contained an Elspeth. I gave him a Taiga for it and turned around, sold the Elspeth and bought my Taiga back off Ebay. I've outsourced at least 2 sets of Goyfs to these kids and it was a little work on my part, but I think if you aren't willing to do that work, get the fuck out of our way. I want my healthy format, how about you?
On a side note, why the HELL is Scroll Rack so expensive?
EDIT: By the way, Yu Gi Oh costs more than Magic. Judgment Dragon (a staple in the most popular deck) is $70. Mirror Force ( A staple in EVERY DECK) is $30. That's just the "Standard" format. It's also very skill intensive, and the people who are as dedicated to it as we are Legacy think the same thing of us. So lets all just try to get along :)
Treasure Hunt increased Scroll Rack's value.
And thank you for pointing the Magic vs. Drugs argument. You hit the nail on the head. I've been playing Magic since I was in the 6th grade. It absolutely kept me out of trouble, improved my critical thinking, and taught me to take responsibility for my actions.
Most people don't realize their actions in Magic reflect their actions in life and vice versa. Whatever you teach your opponent, friends, or the kids in Magic, they get to take with them for the rest of their lives.
For those of you who remember John Sorentino, about ten years ago I couldn't play in a tournament at Star City Games. I had a wonderful deck built and didn't have the money to play and eat. For those of you without blood sugar problems, please understand, when your blood sugar is off, you might as well be drunk, so eating correctly and managing your blood sugar is especially important for tournament play.
Sorentino was a strong Magic player, but he didn't have a deck, so I offered him my deck. He didn't have enough experience with it to feel confident in piloting it, so we sat around and talked about everything from Magic to real life instead. I was 16, so you can imagine the kind of insight he shared with me. That was the last time I saw him. I found out about a year ago he killed himself. It's not often that I don't think about Magic and Sorentino together, and that's something take with me. Time with Sorentino that day is why I take an extra few minutes at the end of a match to sit down with my opponent ten years younger than me and play twenty questions with him, or just chit chat. Or why I'll step outside and have a smoke and talk about my deck freely.
That's why I don't mind spending "a little bit more" to play Legacy or Extended when there are more players of that character quality than in Standard.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
android
If I want to test against something, I'll write on a basic land and play proxies.
Dude, you're ruining what is becoming the rarest thing in magic. White bordered basic lands...
Anyway, I'll add something of value now. I'm kind of on the fence about rising prices. I like that it increases the value of my cards. I can't deny that. I bought my NM Underground Seas for $20 each and love to point it out to people.
On the other side, I'm in college. There is a local store that is trying to encourage guys to play Legacy. I'm on the stores side there. I keep loaning out decks week after week to get more people interested. I sit some days after class and play showing them crazy stuff. I lost to a guy playing standard vampires last night cause he plays frickin duress. Duress + Tidehollow Sculler = ouch for ANT... And I laughed my ass off when he did it. He's playing Legacy this weekend. I've already warned him he's going to be reading a LOT of the cards, but I'm trying to get him up to speed.
I think everyone should remember when they started. I played my first game against Dan Cherry in January of...umm...*digs through binder for old cards*...1997. He helped me a lot. Showed me things that I didn't understand, like why BEB was bad in the blue cards only tournament I was playing in. Everyone starts somewhere. There are friends I made that day that I still have. I've met people that I wouldn't have because of this game. Mike (Teeniebopper) and I wouldn't have made a trip across 2 states one weekend for a vintage tournament when Legacy was still in it's infancy if it hadn't been for Dan way back 7 years before.
Don't be a dick, be a Dan.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
luckme10
Meh: could be summed up in a couple words: "don't know. He's good and people are playing him?"
Seriously that was horrible analysis, but then again, I find most of their videos are aimed at Standard players with little to no knowledge of the Eternal formats. It's always great when online stores put out articles and/or videos talking about prices and using their inflated store prices as opposed to the actual current ebay/street price.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Originally Posted by
anonymos
Dude, you're ruining what is becoming the rarest thing in magic. White bordered basic lands...
It would be quite amusing to see the next huge jump in card price be Three Kingdom's basic lands. They are after all the pimp of white-bordered lands next to Summer. Sad, but probably true in a few years.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dahcmai
It would be quite amusing to see the next huge jump in card price be Three Kingdom's basic lands. They are after all the pimp of white-bordered lands next to Summer. Sad, but probably true in a few years.
Actually, it's funny how on MOTL, white bordered are often more than their original black bordered counterparts. For example:
Jokulhaups (5th), 1.00, 0.00, 1.00, 1.00, 1.00, -0.46, 1
Jokulhaups (6th), 0.82, 0.38, 0.82, 1.25, 0.01, -0.38, 7
Jokulhaups (IA), 0.72, 0.27, 0.72, 1.25, 0.49, -0.00, 11
Fervor (6th), 1.45, 0.00, 1.45, 1.45, 1.45, 0.00, 1
Fervor (7th), 0.94, 0.40, 0.94, 1.50, 0.25, -0.00, 5
Fervor (WL), 1.25, 0.00, 1.25, 1.25, 1.25, 0.00, 1
Enlightened Tutor (6th), 5.04, 2.65, 5.52, 16.51, 2.25, 0.00, 29
Enlightened Tutor (MI), 4.53, 1.77, 4.63, 8.51, 0.99, -0.02, 41
Mystical Tutor (6th), 3.87, 3.13, 4.31, 6.60, 0.99, -0.10, 42
Mystical Tutor (MI), 3.69, 1.47, 3.64, 7.50, 0.99, 0.00, 40
and so on. So. Fucked. Up.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
umbowta
I have as much right to complain as everyone else. Get this, I want more people to be able to play this format. High prices for cards makes many potential legacy players turn away. High prices are bad for Legacy as a whole which make them bad for me despite my potential for financial gain. I hope we're just in a bubble fueled by speculators who get their greedy ass handed to them when these inflated prices induce a huge negative demand shock and prices plummet.
You are effectively only using 4 U-Seas ever in a tournament. Every Dual beyond that is only owned out of convenience. Don't you understand the basic principle of the market? High demand and low supply leads to high prices. Now don't you think that a lot of people including you are (among other reasons) responsible for low supply when sitting on staples you really don't need to play in a tournament.
If some guy next to you would complain that he needs U-Seas but can't find anybody who wants to trade or sell their playset does it feel right to you to complain about high prices?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shugyosha
You are effectively only using 4 U-Seas ever in a tournament. Every Dual beyond that is only owned out of convenience. Don't you understand the basic principle of the market? High demand and low supply leads to high prices. Now don't you think that a lot of people including you are (among other reasons) responsible for low supply when sitting on staples you really don't need to play in a tournament.
If some guy next to you would complain that he needs U-Seas but can't find anybody who wants to trade or sell their playset does it feel right to you to complain about high prices?
What if he's loaning out a deck with 4 seas in it to a friend? What if the 9th sea is in ANT as a 1-of, and he loans that out, too?
Star City has 47 Seas in stock right now. Are they the reason no one can find them? Why are people complaining they can't find them when stores have plenty in stock?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
No one's saying they can't find U Seas (at least I didn't read that); the complaint is about stores having inventory at a cost they're willing to play. (All of those duals being stockpiled in binders are effectively out of the market, increasing the value of those cards that are available.) Personally, I feel people can bitch about whatever they want to bitch about -- I'm not on that side of the argument. :)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nightmare
What if he's loaning out a deck with 4 seas in it to a friend? What if the 9th sea is in ANT as a 1-of, and he loans that out, too?
Star City has 47 Seas in stock right now. Are they the reason no one can find them? Why are people complaining they can't find them when stores have plenty in stock?
Loaning out stuff is what keeps the Legacy scene large but that doesn't change the fact that prices are higher than they have to. People beginning with Legacy don't want to lend decks every tournament they want to own stuff. SCG has a lot of U-Seas but these are much more expensive than getting them via private trade. My collection wouldn't be what it is today if I had to buy everything at SCG prices. More people could have a decent Legacy pool when everyone only owns one set of expensive staples. The thing is that it doesn't stop at something like 9 U-Seas which are only an example. People rarely loan out their entire cardpool on a regular basis and there are also people (not umbowta) who seem to stockpile Scroll Racks, Loyal Retainers etc. They almost certainly don't loan them out. They just drive the prices higher.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shugyosha
Loaning out stuff is what keeps the Legacy scene large but that doesn't change the fact that prices are higher than they have to. People beginning with Legacy don't want to lend decks every tournament they want to own stuff.
Karl Marx agrees with your assessment. OPEC, on the other hand, would like a word with you.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
As I continue to follow this thread and ponder this issue I have mixed feelings:
1. Indifference: I don't care how expensive the cards get. I have what I need to play most decks and if they are worth enough I will sell mine and buy a BMW. MTG will become unaffordable to me long after most players can't afford to play.
2. Concern: I want this format to grow and the barrier to entry is a real issue for the average person. I'm very happy for everyone has that their Legacy staples but how long do you think your cards are going to be $$$ if everyone loses interest due to the entry barrier?
Having a small pile of extra Legacy staples myself I am willing to accept that some type of reprinting needs to be done. Specifically I like putting the cards directly into the hands of the players; via judge promo, as a special top-8 prize, grand prix promo or whatever. I believe more of the old cards need to get back into circulation. I don't much care for doing away with the reserve list because instead of making the reprints special, it will allow wizards to make the cards "common and base" or allow them to make some stupid gimmick (FtVE) and let the resellers dick you over on the price anyway.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shugyosha
Loaning out stuff is what keeps the Legacy scene large but that doesn't change the fact that prices are higher than they have to. People beginning with Legacy don't want to lend decks every tournament they want to own stuff. SCG has a lot of U-Seas but these are much more expensive than getting them via private trade. My collection wouldn't be what it is today if I had to buy everything at SCG prices. More people could have a decent Legacy pool when everyone only owns one set of expensive staples. The thing is that it doesn't stop at something like 9 U-Seas which are only an example. People rarely loan out their entire cardpool on a regular basis and there are also people (not umbowta) who seem to stockpile Scroll Racks, Loyal Retainers etc. They almost certainly don't loan them out. They just drive the prices higher.
I don't understand the difference between "I own 8 Seas, and loan 4 out when 'jimmy' needs them" vs "I own 4 seas, and I traded 4 to 'jimmy' who now owns 4 Seas." Both examples result in 2 decks running Underground Sea in a given event. How does one example drive the price of the cards up, and the other does not? In both examples, there are two sets of seas in the environment. In both examples, access is equal to the two sets of Seas for these players. In both examples, the third player, playing Watery Graves, is fucked. How is that Umbowta's fault?
