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Enchantress? Just stick a CB+Top in play and it's easy. Alos Aura of Silence is GG against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Btw I don't think Zoo is a terrible MU as most of you say, this deck is designed to beat aggro.
And I'm still playing Black and happy with it.
I don't think I can agree w/ wanting more non basics instead of basics.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda
You only really need 2 Volcanics with that setup (its what I run) and I have:
5 Island
2 Plains
9 Fetchlands
2 Tundra
2 Volcanics
1 Seat <-- it's good because you can always sacrifice it to make a thopter if you're dying and don't have a sword but need an extra turn.
1 Academy
The reason you're gravitating towards that manabase I think is you have not played vs Wasteland decks lately.
In your report you said you dodged Merfolk/Goblins. A wasteland in the early turns can cost you the game vs them.
Because you basically need to get to 4 mana asap vs them to land moat, when you hiccup (thanks to Wastelands) it can cost you a lot of life.
Anyways, in my testing for the last 2 weeks, I started always fetching for basics.
The deck does not need the non basics besides for Firespout or the occasional weird fetchland hand + Turn 2 Counterbalance where you have to get them.
Also, I don't like Grim lavamancer in the SB, he seems slow and mana intensive and requires you to put stuff in the yard.
He nowhere as good as he is in Zoo if you think about what you're trying to do.
I've played against Enchantress a lot and narrowly beat a lot of bad players. If they're any good, it would be hard. If you can hold a Force of Will for Replenish and use Krosan Grips that you're already boarding Karmic Justice, mass removal will do it. I find that unlikely. The most hilarious board plan would be to run Opalescence to go with Humility so they wouldn't get the effects of any of their snazzy enchantments. That plan is pretty awful, in all likelihood, but it makes me laugh. The biggest problem is you want to play Opalescence first.
Otherwise, Serenity and Disk are decent options. You run a serious risk of getting blown out by Karmic Justice or Replenish though. Make sure however you board, it can contain Argothian Enchantress. I usually bring in Firespout just for it.
My manabase isn't actually that far from yours. What I wanted my final manabase to look like was:Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Volc
8 Fetch
1 Ruins
We would have the same basic count as each other, but I would have 1 less fetch for one more dual, and I still want to drop the seat for another tundra. I just can't see where making one thopter with a foundry by killing my lands in a narrow subset of situations is going to be more relevant on the whole than producing white mana. Originally I had thought that the need to enlightened tutor for a mana source would trump making one of my islands wasteable, but in retrospect, it rarely comes up. I also don't really think I'm less wasteland immune than you. We've got the same number of basics, and I'm only one fetch down.
In my games against merfolk, I've noticed the exact same trend. Sticking moat/ensnaring bridge means you win the game, not getting them means you lose. I just don't see my manabase being less resilient, I guess. I've got a friend who's played folk religiously for a while now though, so I'll have to do more testing with him.
As for grim lavamancer, in the few post-board games I've had against merfolk, he's been an absolute house. This deck is fully capable of dumping brainstorms, swords, fetches, forces, counterspells, paths, and enlightened tutors into the graveyard. Against merfolk, I don't usually hold back cards conservatively; instead I rush for one of the two lock pieces and spend quite a few cards doing it. It's not unreasonable at all for lavamancer to activate on turn two, and against merfolk he's nearly guaranteed to kill whatever you point him at, buying precious time to find a lock piece and stick it.
This seems entirely false to me. I've got about 10-15 games in against enchantress with this list, and 4-5 games in playing enchantress against UWB landstill with CB/top (a similar list), and I can tell you that CB absolutely does not seal the game against enchantress. A large quantity of the threatening cards from their list cost three or four mana, and most thopter lists have approx. 3 cards in the maindeck that can flip at three, and 2 cards that flip at four. Most of the 1 or two manacost cards that enchantress wants to play in this matchup(sprawl, growth, exploration, argothian) come down on turns one or two, before CB is capable of countering them. From there, enchantress really wants to play 3 cost spells against us. Choke, Justice, Presence, WoW, Aura of Silence, etc. Aura of silence is also a good stall vs. enchantress, but not nearly capable of winning the game on its own. In the second game I played against enchantress, I stuck an aura on turn three, followed by a second one on turn four. It slowed him down for about 3 turns, but this deck isn't aggressive enough to turn those three turns into a victory in such short order. It takes some time to set up jace, or thopterfoundry, and in that time enchantress is perfectly capable of slow-rolling into a confinement, choke, etc, to steal back that tempo that it lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by pippo84
It is worth noting, that the fellow I'm playing enchantress against has been playing the deck for something like two years now. He's fine-tuned a list that he likes, and he's a pretty strong player. That could be some of the discrepancy, but I can't imagine mainstream lists vary from his by more than four cards in the maindeck. When I built the deck, our lists had a total difference of 5 cards maindeck, which amounted to spirit guides on my part vs forests on his, and two utility cards swapped from main to board.
Presence of the Master, however, seems like a solid beating against enchantress, and might actually flat-out win games if it resolves. The only problem then becomes replenish, but with four forces, three counterspells, three spell pierces, and a relic postboard, it could very well be do-able.
Wow, it's just so difficult to tutor a 3 CC drop and float it on top. Against Enchantress you just have to know what to let pass and what to counter. Obviously you can't counter everithing, but usually they play 2 Replenish pre-board and 3 post-board. And they are must counter. And they usually just play 3 win conditions. Those are also a must counter. The rest can pass.. Well, it's also nice to counter Argothian etc if you can but it's not the real priority. Anyways if you know what and how Enchantress plays it's an easy MU, if you don't just lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda
Concering the Back to Basics versus Blood Moon debate, has anyone considered Tsabo's Web. It doesn't randomly hose people who just happen to have nonbasics, but if you have a clear board or a moat or whatever against zoo by the time you can drop back to basics, you're probably pretty set. Web is easier to cast against lands as it's a full mana cheaper which is relevant for port disruption and if you're off a color because of wasteland web is easier. It also draws a card and may be a little more relevant for counterbalance. There may be some matchups I'm neglecting to think of, but I would mostly think such a card would be primarily for lands with some niche matchups against other decks. It does shut off academy which is a little annoying, but so do back to basics and blood moon.
It's worth noting that Lands is probably capable of operating at reasonable efficiency through a Blood Moon if they fetch up their basic and draw Mox Diamond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Yeah but what can they really do, they cannot do anything without their lands being special.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
They have to draw K-grip...
What do people think of A.J.'s Porphyry Notes tech , presumably as a fetchable early roadblock to agro
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...rainstorm.html
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I've had one in lists posted in this thread for a while. It's fine but not amazing. You play it and pretty much hope to get a guy or two. You don't want to E-Tutor for it unless you can't survive to Moat time. It's very nice in that it deals with Inkwell Leviathan and Emrakul and Wild Nacatl.
Then there's also seal of primordium/cleansing, which can destroy CB to let their spells through, or an early aura of silence of their own, which also stops a counterbalance, and the fact that you have to draw balance, draw top, and then tutor for a 3 cost, meaning you're relying on seeing three separate cards in order to start being able to reliably lock down an enchantress player, whereas they're accelerating as hard as they can, and any one of the cards listed, or an early copy of a win condition will mean a game loss before you're able to set up enough to lock them out. Counterbalance and Top don't magically float into your hand next to an enlightened tutor to find that three-drop, you actually have to dig for them some times, and while you're looking enchantress isn't going to sit on it's thumbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by pippo84
I've built enchantress, as I said in my previous post. It's got quite the game against decks such as this one, if the enchantress pilot knows to be aggressive and drop win conditions/lock pieces early, before more controlling decks get set up.Quote:
Originally Posted by pippo84
But whatever. This argument probably wont go anywhere. I'm going to test more games against enchantress, and you can do the same if you feel the urge.
I think it's a card with more synergy with Humility than Moat.Quote:
Originally Posted by rogue.nine
If I were playing Moat maindeck, I'd also run an Ensnaring Bridge to fill the 3-drop slot and to take care of big fliers. If I were playing Humility maindeck, I would run Porphyry Nodes to force my opponent to "extend" into the Abyss. Bridge obviously has poor synergy with Humility, because it would require you to keep your hand empty; Porphyry Nodes has poor synergy with Moat because sometimes the only creatures you can hit are non-fliers (and sometimes it takes out your Thopter tokens), whereas under Humility you can always choose with creatures to hit.
Also I would like to try it. Seems a fine slot to add. Probably you don't really want to tutor for it unless really necessary. Will try it for sure because it may have potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by rogue.nine
@The_Red_Panda: I have a lot of experience playing against Enchantress and that's my testing experience. Anyways I think we have more important topics to discuss..
Btw I totaly agree with lordofthepit's post. :cool:
I played this at a 70 man tournament last weekend and faced lands round 3. Game 2 I dropped blood moon thinking it was gg. He untaps and drops Meloku off his mox diamond. And because he had mana bond in play, he could essentially make as many dudes as he had lands a turn. Needless to say, I couldn't find an EE in time and lost. This option for lands allows them to dodge both blood moon and back to basics. Don't rush to board your swords out, and be ready for her.
Wow meloku sounds like some pretty savage tech. I guess saving the force for it might be better If you have access to a tutor-> blood moon. Usually the force targets are exploration/ intuition or manabond. Am I missing anything?
Did some testing today with 2 predict, 2 counterspell, 2 spell snare split. It played out quite smoothly. The predicts cycle extra tops and work well with top, brainstorm, even a blind balance. Ive never been forced to use them without the setup and setups are plentiful, easy and natural in this deck. I don't mention jace because if you stick him and are brainstorming with him, you should be winning already.
Tested against countertop progenitus today. Had no problems beating it, I played against the Trygon predator lists. The thopter combo is pretty irrelevant in this mu but was never flooded with components even with the 3/2 thopter sword split. We have so many ways to get balance and top that it simply is too difficult for them. Having more counterspells and gas is pretty good too. Natural order is seldom a problem, moat fixes that. I am really liking this deck. It really shouldn't be so easy to beat countertop progenitus.
Edit: Anyone played this in Columbus? I would really appreciate a write up on thoughts, silver bullet choices etc etc. I just realised painfully that I don't run a 3cc in my list. I sorely missed it when setting up the countertop lock against jacestill/bant progenitus. I don't like being blowned out by deed/predator just because I can't make space for 1 slot change in the MD. O-ring/ensnaring bridge are my options. I wreck aggro already with my 3/2 thopter sword split so I'm leaning on o-ring. I will take out the 2 predicts I've been testing for an O-ring and the 3rd spell snare. Snare has been wonderfully useful in so many matchups. Drawing a component has been annoying in the blue match up so if my meta becomes more developed (ie more countertop/ any blue control), I'll take out 1 thopter and 1 sword for 2 predicts. They have been tested to be pretty gassy and fits the curve better than jace 3 and 4. Cheers.
Here's my GP Columbus decklist:
Artifacts: 11
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Engineered Explosives
Enchantments: 6
4 Counterbalance
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
Instants: 20
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
Planeswalkers: 2
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
Lands: 22
1 Tolaria West
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Wasteland
1 Plains
3 Snow-Covered Island
2 Island
2 Tundra
1 Toprical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
Sideboard:
1 Blood Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Aura of Silence
1 Humility
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Take Possession
3 Krosan Grip
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Meddling Mage
Round 1 vs Mono White Control (I'm pretty sure my opponent's deck is on this site somewhere, I remember reading about it prior to the GP)
I win 2-0. Game 1 he used 2 oblivion rings to take out my key cards (Thopter Foundry and Counterbalance). I find E.E. and set to 3....he's done. Game 2 I leave in Swords to Plowshares because I really didn't have much to bring in vs him...He plays Turn 1 Grindstone, turn 2 Painter's servant, turn three activates grindstone --> I have the swords though. Counterbalance lands and I jace him out.
Round 2: Zoo
Game 1 he mulls to 6. I get moat down with countertop online, he didn't start with a 1 drop. Game stalls for a while until thopter foundry takes it home.
Game 2 he mulls to 6 again. I get moat down, but he has the pridemage. I get ensnaring bridge down. We stall for a while, until I get recurring wastelands. His board is loaded with goyfs that can't attack, but I got rid of his green sources before he found a K grip and he scoops in frustration.
Round 3: Goblins.
Game 1 I land a moat and Win.
Game 2 I keep a terrible hand and get stuck on two land.
Game 3 I keep a sketchy hand. He gets a good start, gets me down to about 11 and I drop ensnaring Bridge, but I have 1 card in hand, which lets him attack with piledriver and his smallest gobbos. He forgets piledriver has pro blue and doesn't swing into my meddling mage. I almost win because of this mistake, but then he draws a gempalm and burns my mage. His buddies call him out on his misplay after he beats me, and he was happy it didn't cost him the match. I misplayed hard - I tutored up my CoP: red during my upkeep but couldn't play it because I had only 1 white source (I had ensnaring bridge in play) So I punted that game.
Round 4: Zoo.
Game 1 zoo does it's thing and crushes me.
Game 2 I stabilize at two life with thopter foundry, CoP: Red, Divining Top, academy ruins, and a lot of land. He already blew up my moat and my humility. I am making 1 token per turn and drawing off of the top each turn, then putting the top on top of my library. He calls me out for drawing a card before actually sacrificing my divining top (even though I tapped mana for the activation of the thopter foundry) so I lose. I probably would have lost either way, but still, some people are jerks.
Round 5: Landstill
Game 1 he drops mishras and standstill. He beats me up bad.
In: 2 Red blasts; 1 Blood moon. I don't recall what I pulled though.
Game 2: We control back and forth until he drops a standstill with no factory down. We both draw up to 7 (He had to discard a few times). I brainstorm and break the standstill at his EOT, he drops 4 cards into his GY. He only has 5 land to my 7, and i have 2 counterspell plus FoW backup, so I try to drop my counterbalance and get it down after a long counterwar involving 3 Forces, but now his hand is almost empty already and I have counterbalance in play. He plays a Pernicious Deed, so I tutor up Blood moon in response; he is sad. He extirpates something so i don't get the blood moon. I end up getting a Top though...so I'm cool with that. More control stuff happens which takes forever...I finally land my blood moon and Red elemental blast his Jace before it comes into play. I have 2 thopters because he extirpates my sword of the meek, but they go the distance.
1 Minute until match time is called: I am fairly new to tournament magic and don't know any of the tournament rules. Like don't offer your opponent to roll 2xD6 to determine the winner of the match. My opponent didn't call me out on it because he is a nice guy, but a judge was watching the game for the past 20 minutes (it was an interesting match :P) and tells us to just wait...He gets the head judge over who informs me that I'm DQ'd from the entire event. I offered to do this because we were both at 2-2 and we needed a 7-2 record to make day 2....Moral of the story: Don't offer to randomize the win.
I did run a 61 card deck because I really wanted to make room for that singleton wasteland, which actually won me a game. I figured the extra land can't hurt in this deck anyways, it's really mana hungry.
Overall I had a blast, and after I got DQ'd we went out and got all sorts of drunk and had even more fun. I can't wait for another legacy GP, hopefully I don't punt my goblins match....
Anyways, feel free to give me pointers on my deck, what do you like or not like? The singleton Take Possession is for Jace matchups, I usually have seven mana right before Jace goes ultimate, and there is no way they see it coming.
I think I would try to squeeze Firespouts into my board if I played again, or maybe perish over the green splash...either perish or firespout should be in there somewhere though.
Bad luck! Oh well, with more experience comes more success! All the best in your next try. My initial thought was: Too many silver bullets, by a mile. I'm only running 1 moat, 1 EE, 1 oring and those are all pretty good to draw. The same for your manabase, tolaria westing into stuff is a bit slow (hence why we don't play muddle the mixture). These may have led to your losses vs zoo and goblins, which are generally good MUs. You also need the spouts in the board. Against zoo, moat slows them till they get a grip. Then they grip your moat through your counterbalance lock and blow you out. Permanent solutions are better vs zoo, like spouting the board and going straight for thopter foundry combo (i prefer this strategy as opposed to counterbalance lock). My 2 cents. Cheers.
Is zoo really that good of a Matchup?? This is one of the few matches I actually tested a lot against, and I never got better than 50% (I was testing vs fast zoo, with step lynx and no jittes)
Game 1 they have 4 Pridemages, and even if they don't land one of those, step lynx is a beast, so is nacatl...Then Game two they have red blasts and grips for our thopter foundries.
If they hit a good 1 drop, and a good 2 drop, I find it very hard to win. I will be testing AJ Sacher's tech to see if that helps any, the second from the board seems good if you just draw into it.
Is it just me or does this deck need more land?? I miss my fourth land drop quite a bit, and I don't like that (Even with Top in play)
I agree that tolaria west is too slow - I wanted it because I tested a lot vs Emrakul Decks, and I was afraid lol. I wanted it to find my Karakas. I would have probably been ok with just a spellbomb in the board though.
The west was handy to tutor up academy ruins in the control mirror though.
Preboard, nope never have any difficulty beating zoo, they may get the nuts draw sometimes or I don't find an early sword. But outside of that, a force on pridemage and moat is usually GG. I just play around price of progress and then assemble countertop combo for the lockout. My list plays 3/2 thopter sword split so that may have been the reason why. I can assemble the combo quickly too when in a bind. Saving the snare/force for pridemage in that case is also the correct play. I don't play much silver bullets so my draws are pretty smooth without much clunkiness. I play 21 lands, tried 22, then cut down to 21 again. Depends on your play preference. Post board, grip is harsh, thats why I stressed on the importance or firespout as a permanent solution. The deck has to shift to a more control oriented approach with removal and not depend as heavily on enchantments due to grip. IMO my play style postboard is: Deal with early threats with spout/swords/threads (I play 1 Threads of disloyalty in the board). Then race to assemble thopter sword. Make a bunch of tokens, win. Once you assemble thopter sword, they have to find grip FAST or you make so many tokens that you don't care if they draw grip later on. I can't say the same for moat/countertop lock, because they can still eot grip, kill you. Tokens don't go away with a grip.