[Deck] The Rock

@ Swarm187
I feel the use of 4x Vindicate and 4x Maelstrom Pulse is overkill. I personally play 3x [cards]Vindicate[/cads] and 2x Maelstrom Pulse. The additional 2 slots that are being used for could be used for something else in an area that we lack. Even with the aggro that running around, I still say there are better options.

Just out of a curiosity, how do think a Control version of Rock sporting Engineered Explosives and Bitterblossom would fare? I have not seen any mention to the use of Bitterblossom in our threads, is it viable for Rock to use it?

The only time I can recall seeing Pulse in a report from a big tourny was Kansas. It was the stock Dark Horizons list with -1 Verdict, +1 Pulse.

I think part of the problem with Bitterblossom is that the life loss really adds up from that, Bob, and Thoughtseize. It definitely doesn't seem like a bad card though.

I think Bitterblossom would be fine in a Stoneforge build, since you turn those tiny critters into tiny critters carrying weaponry. Otherwise, they're a little less intimidating.

I know it's played in some builds of Team America, and I'm sure it'd be good with Innocent Blood/sac effects.

-Matt

I've had some success testing Bitterblossom in a Deadguy Ale/Stoneforge deck (like Matt referenced). I also run Vampire Nighthawk to offset the life loss. Bitterblossom seems to work in the Stoneforge package pretty well because you always have a dude with evasion to stick things on.

I want to see what happens at SCG San Jose. Is anyone from here going?

Either way, I'm going to ask to get this moved to DTB soon.

-Matt

I just got my ass handed to me by merfolk Ub splash playing the most recent scg top 8 list. The first game my confidant did 10+ damage to me and I didn't see much land. The second game jitte took it to my goyfs.

What is the current sb strategy vs. Merfolk as I seen a lot of arguing lately but perhaps no agreement?

First off, I'd say drop Gerrard's Verdict for Path to Exiles.

Second, Board in: Dueling Grounds/Engineered Plague, Diabolic Edict (if you're playing it), Deed (if you have room).

Board out: Hand disruption (isn't as good here).

At least, that's what I usually do. Sometimes I take out Vindicates, but personally I've found I'm sometimes in need of them as well.

What's your guys' plan if you're playing the SCG 5th place list versus Merfolk?

-Matt

The best answer I've found to beating Merfolk is to side in Dueling Grounds and Pernicious Deed (assuming you're like me and don't MD it). MD Merfolk has no answers to either beyond counters, and unless they run green splash for Goyf/Kgrip it's unlikely they'll have an answer Post-board (although there are still a few die-hard Mono-U builds running Stifle). Dueling Grounds isn't a long-term solution since cantrips/Standstill will enable them to draw into more lords which will add up fast, but it can easily stall out the game to the point where you have a chance to win. If you're running Maze of Ith, this can also help to stall them out under Grounds although Merfolk does run Wasteland. And Deed is quite obviously a great board sweeper. If you have them EE may be a little bit more relevant than Deed since it will clear the board of 3cc for 5 rather than 6.

SBing out is rather easy for this MU: -4 Hymns -4 Vindicate are typically what I auto-out. Vindicate's targets are either Vial or a creature. 3 mana and a turn to kill 1 creature is too slow against Merfolk. A lot of other players will side out Thoughtseize over Vindicate, but like I said just a sentence ago I don't like spending 3 mana and 1 turn to kill 1 threat when they're running enough lords to keep consistent creature drops turn after turn. Thoughtseize can also be used as a kill spell, and better yet it only costs 1 and lets me do other things in a turn. Of course, this is just a personal preference and I can easily understand why people would opt for Vindicate over Thoughtseize.

I also often SB in Extirpate in this MU, although not everyone would. Removing 4 of their Lords (particularly the good ones Reejery/Coralhelm) can easily tip the match in your favor.

ForlornEgoist

The Deadguy Rock deck I posted a few pages back, and in the Sinkhole SCD thread, absolutely smashes Merfolk.

The combination of discard, land destruction, answer to Vial, loads of creature removal, and big fatties is a serious problem for them. Resource Denial is extremely potent against Merfolk, and they have problems swinging into large men.

[QUOTE=sdematt;514600What's your guys' plan if you're playing the SCG 5th place list versus Merfolk?

-Matt[/QUOTE]

Merfolk will have something like:

8-11 Counterspells (They probably side some of these out for Perish or Submerge?)
12 Lords
20 Creatures


If the Merfolk pilot seems like (s)he's pretty aggro with their deck and doesn't rely on counter support a lot, I'd probably go:

-2 Verdict
-4 Thoughtseize
-4 Hymn

+4 Plague
+3 Extirpate
+3 Edict

This gives me:

16 Removal spells
3 ways to get rid of the Lords I kill (Kind of like a 4 for 2.)


If you're worried about the counters or Perish coming in, I would go:

-2 Verdict
-1 Hymn

+3 Extirpate

Then shoot myself in the face for playing Verdict. Do people just netdeck lists and show up without testing? How does Verdict not get cut in these Top8 lists?


@sdematt: Have you had more luck going with disruption or removal against Merfolk? I seem 50/50 against Merfolk, but seems to win more when I ruin their hands early and get a threat down. That's not always possible though, because they can protect their hands with counters.. or should be able to.

I'll be doing some more testing Thursday, so Ill be able to tell you more then.

Thoughtseize is nice if you can strip Vial, Reejerey etc., but much of the time when stuff starts landing you're always looking for removal. Ideally, I'd love to have both, but it never seems to work out.

I'm a fan of more removal though, since it makes them make some sort of investment before I get rid of it, either by mana or tapping their vial. Thoughtseize just means they have mana open to play other cards, albeit not as good ones.

Again, more testing to do :D

-Matt

If you really want to beat merefolk post board you can go ahead and bring in choke and pithing needle or Kataki, War's Wage. Drawing a combination of these cards basically renders them unable to play spells. So you rpost board gameplan is: dump their hand, needle on vial, choke, stabilize, win.

So I'm running a slightly atypical Dark Horizons (btw I still really hate that name) list and I'm having a lot of trouble against Countertop and New Horizons; in the past two weeks I've gone 0-2 in matches vs New Horizons and 2-1 vs Countertop (sounds good, but one match was due to lucksacking and the other went to time but he conceded on the last turn). Am I just a bad player or are those decks supposed to be bad matchups.

For reference this is my list (for cards with 2 numbers: first one is my list from last week, second one is my list from this week):

Lands (23):
1x Swamp
1x Plains
0/1x Forest
4x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Scrubland
2x Bayou
2x Horizon Canopy
1/0x Karakas
4x Wasteland
1x Maze of Ith

Creatures (14):
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Qasali Pridemage (replacing the typical Gerrard's Verdicts since I've been unimpressed by them)

Spells (23):
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Mox Diamond
1x Pernicious Deed

SB:
3x Duress
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Gaddock Teeg
3/0x Kitchen Finks
2/0x Path to Exile
0/3x Engineered Plague
0/1x Karakas
0/1x Bojuka Bog

I've been trying to think of how I can improve those matchups without hurting other matchups too much. The cards I've been considering are Krosan Grip, Elspeth Knight-Errant, and Volrath's Stronghold, these are the changes I'm considering:
-1 Horizon Canopy, +1 Volrath's Stronghold
-3 Goddock Teeg, +2 Krosan Grip, +1 Elspeth Knight-Errant

Any suggestions?

@dyzzy:

Countertop -- Krosan Grip in the board helps get Counterbalance off the board. Also, Elspeth is a good addition because it's 4cc and Counterbalance has trouble stopping since they run so few 4 cc cards.

New Horizons -- You can try Extirpating their win conditions. I struggle with this match up too though.

I feel like the deck is still missing something. Sometimes it just flops. I'm going to start messing around with Tidehollow Scullers again. I know it can be easily removed and people don't generally speak well of it, but at worst it's still a 1-for-1. The more early disruption I can get in, the better off I usually am. At least Tidehollow is a better topdeck than pure discard.

a 2/2 for 2 is good? loli

I dont have the Goyf's :frown: and I dont have plans to buy it for now, so i tried to keep this deck strong without it and i build that list, what do you think?

I hope you help me to build my SB and strong the MD.
My field:
2x Merfolks (1 MonoU, 1 UW splash)
1x Goblins (G splash for krosan on side)
1x Elfball
1x Reveilark
1x Dredge
2x MonoR slight
1x Boros agro
1x BG rock

PS: Sry for the english I'm Brazilian. :eek:


Lands (22):
4x Wasteland
4x Marsh Flats
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Scrubland
2x Bayou
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Urbor, Tomb of Yawgmoth


Creatures (14):
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Stoneforge Mystic

Spells (24):
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Mox Diamond
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Did you guys see, we made it to Third place! Mind you, look at the screwed up decklist:

3 Mox Diamond
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tormod's Crypt

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
3 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed

Instants
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sorceries
1 Duress
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Perish
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
6 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas


Frankly, I'm pretty sure it actually doesn't have 6 Wastelands or 3 Plagues main :P. But, you get the general idea :P

I'm going to ask for DTB status. Also, this person must be reading our thread or great minds think alike: one of each basic, Elspeth, etc. Hooray us!

-Matt

@ sdematt

I agree, that list must be messed up. I did not see a S/B either. I knew our decktype had the potential. I'm sure a tweak here and there is required to wrap up a first place finish though. With that said . . .

@ Thrun, the Last Troll

4cc, but I see this card as a 2-of finisher. Thoughts?

I tested with this deck over the weekend and I also keep looking at the current SCG results and tournament reports. A lot of reports against the rock go like they resolved vial and won, or they didn't get down a vial and I stomped them because my dudes are better than theirs.

So what happens if we actually play our own vials. We can cut the diamonds, drop the flex deed, gerard's verdict or whatever, maybe cut down a land or two. Then we can add in either BoP, Noble Hierarch, or Elve's of the Deep Shadow, to boost our mana/fix it or try out Tideholowsculler, Mother of Runes, Pridemage, or Vampire Nighthawk.

With a vial we would always have the right color of mana to cast the creature (Just like diamond provided) and would free up our mana to fire off disruption/removal while the vial dropped dudes.

I'm going to try this if I have a chance. I'm interested to know what you guys think.