So your mana dorks are much worse which makes Natural Order worse, and in this format UR Delver can still race you even if you get a 10/10 out.Quote:
Originally Posted by monovfox
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So your mana dorks are much worse which makes Natural Order worse, and in this format UR Delver can still race you even if you get a 10/10 out.Quote:
Originally Posted by monovfox
Hope people still believe in this deck/read this thread.
Went 2-1 at at weekly event with the following list. I beat Death and Taxes and Shardless Bug (turns out they can't deal with a resolved natural order), losing the last round to Loam Pox (yeah, literally unwinnable without a lot of luck)
I theorize Spell pierce to be better than what I could be playing in that slot, but I could be wrong. Daze in this format is decent (not amazing) against delver decks. Deathrite shaman is a major problem card when playing with daze, so bolting it immediately is important.
In retrospect the maindeck either needs a trygon predator or a scavenging ooze (I haven't quite figured out the slot for it, though daze, chain lightning and spell pierce look like prime targets with ponder as a secondary target for getting rid of). If anyone has suggestions for changes to the list I am more than happy to take them.
Out of the board you definitely need 2 ancient grudge, cage craps on you and progenitus is your best out against Shardless. I don't know if surgical extraction is worth playing, as the only thing I would bring it in for is storm and loam (and loam is a pretty shitty matchup, not sure if it's worth salvaging).
I think I want a counterspell as a generic answer in this 75, this format is awfully grindy and taxing permission isn't the greatest most of the times.
Bonfire is hilarious, you guys should play it.
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Ponder
3 Daze
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
4 Natural Order
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Progenitus
2 Spell Pierce
1 Chain Lightning
SB: 1 Bonfire of the Damned
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 Grim Lavamancer
Oh this deck is definitely still playable. Eldrazi, D&T and Shardless have issues beating Progenitus, and plan B (Goyf beatdown) is often just fine. You have an acceptable combo matchup as well. Miracles will probably be a nuisance, but Jace and Sylvan Library will help there. It looks like a fine deck to play at the moment.
There is one question you want to ask yourself: what splash colour is best right now?
Red gives you Blasts, Bolts and other good removal for small guys.
White gives you strong Zenith targets and good removal for bigger guys with StP and Path.
Black gives you Deathrite, Decay and perhaps discard.
Since the basis of the deck is UG with Zenith, Hierarch, Goyf, Natural Order, cantrips and counters, you can use whatever colour you want as splash. I've played this deck with moderate success using red and white splash a few years back. I haven't tried the black splash much yet in competitive play.
Second bit of advice I'd like to give: very often plan B becomes plan A, so I'd definitely recommend you run the full set of Goyfs.
Happy Ordering! :cool:
Thanks for the advice. Might I ask how you go about sideboarding for miracles and delver? I rarely play blue, so I'm pretty bad at this whole "sideboarding cards that aren't white or artifacts or dismember in and out" thing
I'd take out all Bolts and add Blasts, threats.Quote:
Originally Posted by monovfox
On the draw I also ditch Dazes in favour of better counters.
Against Miracles you have to time your Natural Order well.
They have Terminus for it, so you don't want to overextend.
One proper threat at the time seems like the way to go.
Play your one threat and defend it. If it dies, play another.
Remember you can fetch Dryad Arbor EOT and Order the turn after. :wink:
For the rest, just play games. You'll get the hang of it.
I'm a bit surprised to see the lonely Progenitus as the main NO target. Back at the start of the year I had a stint of trying out Eureka Order and remember several sad games where even an early Progenitus didn't cut it. Then again, accelerating and landing either a boss Eureka (spilling out Nicol Bolas, Ugin, Terastodon, etc) or NO into Proggy was about that deck's only route to victory.
Still, Elderscale Wurm just is a giant "you can't win" against so many decks - especially a few capable of racing Progenitus such as Burn or Elves.
But then again, like I'm reading from the last couple pages, NO is simply plan B here. And there is plenty of interaction along the plan A route.
It plays much more like a midrange control deck than a combo deck in some matchups. Though against loam decks you just wanna get progy out on turn 3 and hopefully your sideboard hope//pray worked
Well, the last time it had a lot of success was the last time that 1 CMC spells were being hated on.
Where are you going with this thought? I don't really understand what this statement by itself means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
The deck's viability was brought up. I mused that the last time it thrived was in an environment in which 1 CMC spells were taking some punishment from Mental Misstep, and 1 CMC spells are again being punished to a degree with Eldrazi.Quote:
Originally Posted by monovfox
Yeah, that is true. Got some games in against eldrazi and it's favorable (I won about 60% of the games). Turn 3 Prog with blockers is usually too much. Their creatures aren't large enough to get through it, and racing it is questionable for them if w have a noble hierarch or twoQuote:
Originally Posted by Scott
You ask yourself the wrong question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
The last time this deck was widely played, and therefor able to put up strong results consistently, was before the banning of Mental Misstep. After the ban, people just netdecked other decks. I played this deck only post-ban, and my results were good. No one has tested this deck in the current meta, but it looks good: fine looking matchups against Eldrazi, D&T, Shardless and Combo. Miracles seems tough, but I'd say in capable hands this deck could be a serious contenter.
I'm wondering if Cryptic Command out of the sideboard against miracles might actually be super strong (also against shardless). Both matchups are super grindy, and I know storm occasionally runs cryptic out of the sideboard to help with miracles.
I'm not sure whether this is a deck that wants to keep UUU1 open to use in the opposing turn. Against Miracles I'd just bet on Jace, Sylvan Library, REB/Pyroblasts and the fact that we are the aggressor. Against their Jace we have blasts and Clique, and the only way they can beat a resolved Order->Progenitus is a Terminus. They already have a somewhat narrow path to victory against us. Using Jace and Sylvan Library to keep the business coming, and having some additional cards to defend our threats should get the matchup to at least 50/50. At least, in my head it does. This requires testing though.Quote:
Originally Posted by monovfox
But I'd strongly advise against using a narrow card that slows us down, doesn't win by itself and has a few perfectly fine alternatives that don't have the same disadvantages (Library is cheap, helps smooth out draws, draws extra cards if needed / Jace can win the game by himself, draw extra cards, and so on).
Do people ever run 1-2 wasteland to deal with problem lands, or is the mana base too fragile
I don't believe you understood me correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Maybe not, but the simple fact is: very little people played this deck after the banning of Misstep. If no one plays the deck, it can't put up numbers. If you look at the current meta, the deck should theoretically perform quite nicely. Of course extensive testing will tell us whether it actually will, but so far no one has been willing to invest a lot of time into testing this deck in the current meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
I personally don't own Natural Orders anymore, so all I can do is think along and explain my findings from back when I did play this deck, which was after the banning of Misstep, but still quite some time ago. I performed nicely with the deck, despite the fact that I was inexperienced with the deck and despite the fact that I am simply not the best MtG player out there. The deck felt very solid and versatile to me. If I were a better player, I'd probably have been able to squeeze a few top-8s out of my efforts.
@monovfox: Indeed the mana base is a challenge sometimes. I'd advise against adding Wastelands. Maybe in a list with Bant colours and 2-3 Knight of the Reliquary it could make sense to add a few to the 75. Karakas would also be a great help against some matchups. But outside of the Bant version, I'm guessing Wasteland would be a bad idea.
I actually really like this deck and I wish it was still good, but many things have changed since 2011.
For starters, Mental Misstep was very good in this deck, protecting your relevant creatures from removal while not being super exciting against it. There's also the fact that NO RUG was never great against combo, but combo wasn't a thing during the Misstep era. The deck was probably still good after the ban, but not after the release of Innistrad. Snapcaster Mage is an issue because control players can no feasibly aim removal at your mana creatures. Delver of Secrets made Submerge way more prevalent (this is the main reason I didn't play NO RUG in Amsterdam). Then there's Liliana of the Veil, which suddenly allows all the Sultai decks to run removal for Progenitus that's actually good. On top of all that, Storm is suddenly a deck because Past in Flames exists.
So with Innistrad alone, UW decks have gotten much better against you, UR decks have become much better, all non-combo black decks have gotten better against you and black combo decks have gotten better in general. Then comes Avacyn restored (and Dark Ascension in between for good measure) to make matters even worse: Now Counterbalance is something to worry about and the most commonly played deck maindecks four answers to Progenitus. Griselbrand makes Reanimator better and Sneak & Show becomes a deck. You have also lost a good matchup in Maverick (partially replaced by Death & Taxes, which is likely much harder to beat because Thalia, Waste, Port).
I might mess around with the deck after the GP since I still own most of the cards, but I honestly don't expect much.
If you are concerned about your NO sac target staying alive play dungrove elders.
I think Innistrad especially, DRS, and printing a 3 mana progenitus that you can just cast make it tough to justify some of the old card choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree
If you built the deck as a UGx deck, red or black likely making the most sense as X you could sneak up on some decks with Natty-O. Even boarding it out when you smell Priest or Cage. There's a NO target that stones almost every internet deck
Progenitus vs. Dnt
Ruric thar vs. Combo
Elderscale vs. Merfolk, elves, burn, rug
Worldspine wurm vs. Bug
Terastadon, Dromoka, have some play vs. Miracles
Sneak attack seems rough, you have have to fight that on the stack.