Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
Has anyone found it awkward to play both Liliana and countermagic in the same deck? I've wanted to put Liliana in the aggro-control version Team America and, aside from mana requirements, I found that she seemed to awkward with the counters to work well. That makes me think it would be even more so, in an actual control list. Have other people found this to be the case? When she's not mixing badly with counterspells I've found her nice to have, since a repeatable sack effect is powerful, and sometimes she can take over a game.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
Are you playing any Life from the Loams? Its probably too slow for the tempo build, but 2 Life from the loam go pretty nicely with lilly.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
I've been loving this list lately:
23 lands (8 duals, 8 fetch, 1 swamp, 1 island, 4 wastes, 1 creeping tarpit)
4 goyf
4 snapcaster
3 jace
2 liliana
4 fow
4 inquisition of kozilek
3 spell snare
4 bstorm
1 ponder
4 ghastly demise
3 diabolic edict
1 life from the loam
SB:
4 leyline of the void // surgical extraction/tormod's
4 pernicious deed
4 flusterstorm // spell pierce
2 engineered plague
1 jace // thrun
The list is incredibly consistent in executing its gameplan, and forgoes some of the cutesy tricks for more consistency. The SB seems a bit narrow, but the cards there can be utter blow-outs against the decks you are bringing them in for. Combo decks can still be a struggle since it doesn't have Daze/Delver, and Burn/UR Delver is and always will be difficult for BUG. Otherwise, I'd say this list has even-to-favorable matchups across the board. The main slot I would contend with is running Inquisition over Thoughtseize -- Inquisition is better against aggro decks especially since we don't have Batterskull to recoup the life loss, however Thoughtseize is just so much better against control and combo right now.
Also, the last SB card -- not sure if Jace, Thrun, or perhaps something else would be a better fit here.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
@Wcm - I like the list a lot, although I'm not sure how the 4 deeds in the board play nicely with the 8 2cmc creatures MD. Also, have you considered perhaps adding some cliques into the MD? I run them in my list almost exclusively for 2 reasons: 1. Killing Delvers, 2. Ruining combo players lives.
Also, perhaps you might want to reconsider the snares/replace them with pierces. The deck has answers to almost all 2cmc spells but definitely needs more taxing early game counters on the stack to either keep a threat alive, or prevent a spell from resolving in essential early game -- as the format is speeding up, pierce becomes much more relevant.
Just some food for thought.
Edit: Regarding the last spot in the board, neither thrun nor jace seem like they would shore up any matches, and if you're running 4 snapcasters, surgical is definitely the best bet for yard hate.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
I agree with your suggestions. I played the list yesterday and went 3-3. I beat 2 RUG players (this is a good matchup), Esper Blade (another pretty good matchup). My losses were to UR Delver (expected, though I probably could have played less noobly), Reanimator (totally agree that Surgical would have been 100% better here), and combo elves (lost in a very close game 3, which probably would have been won if I had sequenced a Snapcaster play earlier in the game correctly).
So changes I would likely make:
Maindeck
-1 Snapcaster
-1 Land
-1 Diabolical Edict
+1 Clique
+1 Ponder
+1 Maelstrom Pulse // Pernicious Deed
SB:
-4 Leyline of the Void
+4 Surgical Extraction (maybe extirpate for reanimator)
-2 Pernicious Deed
+2 Engineered Explosives
Maybe some more modifications as well. I am ambivalent about Spell Snare, it seems to be pretty incredible a lot of the time, but Spell Pierce might just be better maindeck material. If so, the SB slots can be adjusted with the new extra slots.
edit:
-3 Spell Snare
+3 Spell Pierce
SB
-4 Spell Pierce
+2 Gilded Drake
+1 Perish
+1 Darkblast
Maybe also dump the maindeck Inquisitions for Thoughtseize. There were at least several times where I wish I could have pulled a FoW and other higher cmc stuff during the tournament.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chikenbok
@Wcm - I like the list a lot, although I'm not sure how the 4 deeds in the board play nicely with the 8 2cmc creatures MD. Also, have you considered perhaps adding some cliques into the MD? I run them in my list almost exclusively for 2 reasons: 1. Killing Delvers, 2. Ruining combo players lives.
Also, perhaps you might want to reconsider the snares/replace them with pierces. The deck has answers to almost all 2cmc spells but definitely needs more taxing early game counters on the stack to either keep a threat alive, or prevent a spell from resolving in essential early game -- as the format is speeding up, pierce becomes much more relevant.
Just some food for thought.
Edit: Regarding the last spot in the board, neither thrun nor jace seem like they would shore up any matches, and if you're running 4 snapcasters, surgical is definitely the best bet for yard hate.
In some of the matches the deeds go in, the goyfs come out (for instance maverick and nic fit). Although against delver and merfolk i usually keep them both in and take out FoW. Clique has lost some value due to the rise of Esper Blade (they're awful against lingering souls), though i think they might have a slot in the SB depending on the expected meta.
Spell Snare vs Spell Pierce is very debatable i have not yet come to a conclusion, it really depends on your expected meta i guess.
The thing with surgical is that against dredge you really need 1 Leyline or multiple extractions, bloodghast and ichorid will also kill you, your problem is not just the zombie tokens, you are not fast enough to just ignore those and you don't have StP to exile them. Furthermore, you might get unlucky and they dredge into a bunch of moebas and therapies and strip your extractions before you can use them in anything really crucial.
I think that with so much reanimator and show and tell running around Flusterstorm is in general a better option than spell pierce, plus you are looking to go to a long game even against combo decks, and spell pierce will lose some of its value in time. I sometimes use a couple of negates in the sideboard instead of the spell pierces.
The list wcm8 posted is my list from BoM 6. It was pretty much teched main deck against RUG Delver and Maverick. The sideboard was targeted at show & tell and reanimator, and also Esper Blade (Plague for Lingering Souls).
I've been liking liliana a lot less recently, i might cut her for something else (not sure what exactly), she's only really good against maverick, in the rest of the match-ups she goes from reasonable to just plain bad.
Regards
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jparula
The list wcm8 posted is my list from BoM 6. It was pretty much teched main deck against RUG Delver and Maverick. The sideboard was targeted at show & tell and reanimator, and also Esper Blade (Plague for Lingering Souls).
Apologies for not giving you credit, I would have linked to the TCDeck's list, but I was posting it from my phone.
I do love the list, and I think it really smashes RUG quite soundly. Having Tarmogoyfs of your own is such an important thing in that matchup for two reasons: 1) you need to be able to fend off Mongeese/opposing Goyfs to buy time to get your planeswalkers online, and 2) you need an actual clock to finish them off in time before they start finding burn to kill you despite your superior board position. This is a big reason why I think playing the 'Deedstill' decks (the ones with no creatures aside from a few Snapcasters and some manlands) is a poor decision in this metagame.
I think I would do a split of 2/2 Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives. Explosives is ever so slightly faster at killing tokens and 1cmc creatures. It's also more likely to resolve through Daze/Spell Pierce against RUG. Also, in my matchup against combo Elves, my opponent brought in Pithing Needles and Quasali Pridemages. By doing a split, you will be more likely to be able to do a board whipe despite their disruption (this is admittedly a corner-case reason, but it is something that can come up).
I also don't think I'd want to resort to the Leyline plan in the SB. I think with 4 Brainstorm, 2 Ponders (and then eventually Jace), you might be better off playing GY hate that you can cantrip into. So I was suggesting 4 Surgical Extraction, but a split of 2/2 with Nihil Spellbomb or something else similar might be fine. I would say Grafdigger's Cage, unfortunately we need the GY for our Snapcasters.
Finally, Gilded Drake is one of the best cards against Show and Tell decks and Reanimator. It's also hilarious if you can get an active Jace -- you can bounce it, returning it your hand, and have repeatable, permanent creature stealing.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
Well, here's the list I've been tuning so far. Tested today against UW Miracles, BUG Aggro (Goyf/Snap/Ooze), and Merfolk - Went 12-3, 13-2, 10-5 against the three decks respectively. I only had a chance to play 15 matches with each opponent so the samples we're fairly small. I got in one quick round against RUG and went 2-1.
//The Sick Beats -- 2
2 x Snapcaster Mage
//For the Stack -- 17
4 x Force of Will
4 x Brainstorm
3 x Counterspell
2 x Ghastly Demise
1 x Diabolic Edict
3 x Spell Pierce
//The Slower Stack -- 13
1 x Maelstrom Pulse
2 x Life from the Loam
2 x Inquisition of Kozilek
2 x Thoughtseize
3 x Innocent Blood
3 x Pernicious Deed
//Win Conditions/P.Walkers -- 5
3 x Jace
2 x Lili
23 Lands Incl. 2 Factories, and 1 Tar Pit.
Gotta say, I'm not missing tarmogoyfs at all.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chikenbok
Well, here's the list I've been tuning so far. Tested today against UW Miracles, BUG Aggro (Goyf/Snap/Ooze), and Merfolk - Went 12-3, 13-2, 10-5 against the three decks respectively. I only had a chance to play 15 matches with each opponent so the samples we're fairly small. I got in one quick round against RUG and went 2-1.
//The Sick Beats -- 2
2 x Snapcaster Mage
//For the Stack -- 17
4 x Force of Will
4 x Brainstorm
3 x Counterspell
2 x Ghastly Demise
1 x Diabolic Edict
3 x Spell Pierce
//The Slower Stack -- 13
1 x Maelstrom Pulse
2 x Life from the Loam
2 x Inquisition of Kozilek
2 x Thoughtseize
3 x Innocent Blood
3 x Pernicious Deed
//Win Conditions/P.Walkers -- 5
3 x Jace
2 x Lili
23 Lands Incl. 2 Factories, and 1 Tar Pit.
Gotta say, I'm not missing tarmogoyfs at all.
From my testing the goyfs are crucial against Burn, U/R Burn and Combo Decks with disruption (Cabal Therapy, Duress, Thoughtseize). They are also important against Goblins, RUG Delver and Merfolk. I take them out post side in most other match-ups.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jparula
From my testing the goyfs are crucial against Burn, U/R Burn and Combo Decks with disruption (Cabal Therapy, Duress, Thoughtseize). They are also important against Goblins, RUG Delver and Merfolk. I take them out post side in most other match-ups.
I agree. At a certain point, you need to actually go kill your opponent. The cost/benefit of having your opponent's removal be live is worth it in the majority of matchups. RUG can't even reliably kill Tarmogoyf without 2-for-1'ing themselves -- and then they'll be forced to consider siding in Submerges, which are otherwise terrible against BUG Control. There are very few matchups where having a huge wall/clock isn't advantageous.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
I;ve been playing the following list for a bit, and it seems good to me. Its moire on the aggro-control side than straight control, but I stil think it fits better here than in the aggro-tempo thread.
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
2 snapcaster mage
4 force of will
4 spell pierce
2 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 ghastly demise
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 jace, the mindsculptor
1 liliana of the veil
1 sylvan library
3 wasteland
4 underground sea
3 tropical island
1 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
I ran this list this past sunday to a 4-0 finish (going 8-0 in games). Sadly I lost to goblins in top4 in 2 reallyyy close games. During rounds I beat reanimator, maverick, UW stoneforge w/ standstill, and some UW energy field/wheel of sun and moon. Here is my list:
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptar
2 Liliana, of The Veil
3 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
2 Innocent Blood
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Life From the Loam
1 Sensei's Top
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacomb
Sideboard:
1 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Perish
2 Innocent Blood
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Damnation
1 Krosan Grip
1 Haunting Echoes
I'm debating right now if I should drop goyf from the mainboard and add 4 to the sideboard. I didn't see goyf once the entire day until top 4 when I raced goblins on a mull to 5. Clique and snapcaster went the distance basically the whole day (and jace) and across the field, clique seems relevant in more matches then goyf.
The sideboard is also a little all over the place, but it worked out fine for the matches that I played, and my only real thought on board is playing surgical or extripate. I just don't know if the speed of surgical is better than the split second on extripate.
Also, on another note, I'm thinking of dropping creatures all together and playing a landstill variation with The Abyss because I just got one. Only problem being that deck takes forever to win, and snapcaster mage is amazing.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
@Brad -- I've been running "creatureless" for some time now and I've been finding myself rolling through most of the field (mind you, I consider a 2 snapcaster mage build to be creatureless). Although I would be interested in working on an oldschool landstill version too!
Tarmogoyf is a great wall against aggro decks and a great clock against combo decks, but so is ripping their hand apart and beating in with cliques and animated factories. Perhaps its just how one chooses to play the deck but I'd much prefer to take some hits, 3 for 1 my opponent with a forced through deed after peeking at their hand a few times and taking relevant spells, then landing a jace and winning the game. If you play tight and aggressively, you rarely run into time problems regarding, actually winning the game.
I mean, what kind of ass doesn't pick up their cards after you have a Liliana, a Jace, and a Loam running?
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chikenbok
Well, here's the list I've been tuning so far. Tested today against UW Miracles, BUG Aggro (Goyf/Snap/Ooze), and Merfolk - Went 12-3, 13-2, 10-5 against the three decks respectively. I only had a chance to play 15 matches with each opponent so the samples we're fairly small. I got in one quick round against RUG and went 2-1.
//The Sick Beats -- 2
2 x Snapcaster Mage
//For the Stack -- 17
4 x Force of Will
4 x Brainstorm
3 x Counterspell
2 x Ghastly Demise
1 x Diabolic Edict
3 x Spell Pierce
//The Slower Stack -- 13
1 x Maelstrom Pulse
2 x Life from the Loam
2 x Inquisition of Kozilek
2 x Thoughtseize
3 x Innocent Blood
3 x Pernicious Deed
//Win Conditions/P.Walkers -- 5
3 x Jace
2 x Lili
23 Lands Incl. 2 Factories, and 1 Tar Pit.
Gotta say, I'm not missing tarmogoyfs at all.
Would you ever consider Ensnaring Bridge? It's nuts with Lili's against anything aggro oriented.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Would you ever consider
Ensnaring Bridge? It's nuts with Lili's against anything aggro oriented.
Any deck that's trying to attack my life total with creatures as an efficient means of ending the game is already going to lose to targeted removal and sweepers. I usually don't want to be staring at a board full of critters with no cards in hand and lili ticking up, I'd much rather her, along with other cards, deal with the creatures before I can further develop the game state.
Also, even when Lili is ticking up, I usually have 3-4 cards in hand.
I guess it just seems a bit redundant in the effects of the BUg gameplan, albeit, it could possibly be a good out to a resolved big boy (although, I usually win that war anyways).
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chikenbok
Any deck that's trying to attack my life total with creatures as an efficient means of ending the game is already going to lose to targeted removal and sweepers. I usually don't want to be staring at a board full of critters with no cards in hand and lili ticking up, I'd much rather her, along with other cards, deal with the creatures before I can further develop the game state.
Also, even when Lili is ticking up, I usually have 3-4 cards in hand.
I guess it just seems a bit redundant in the effects of the BUg gameplan, albeit, it could possibly be a good out to a resolved big boy (although, I usually win that war anyways).
Is redundant not another way of saying 'consistent'? It was just an idea...you're playing a hard-control game with *zero* creatures. Ensnaring Bridge seemed like dirty tech, honestly.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Is redundant not another way of saying 'consistent'? It was just an idea...you're playing a hard-control game with *zero* creatures. Ensnaring Bridge seemed like dirty tech, honestly.
I'm not arguing against the value that can come along with a resolved Ensnaring bridge against an aggro deck, nor am I trying to play an exciting game of semantics (but if you wanna talk index I'm totally down).
IMO -- The list is too tight to cut anything really for bridge, let alone - I generally don't want to have 1 or 0 cards in my hand. I'd rather have n+1 cards in my hand where n is the number of cards in my opponents hand, even if that means 6 vs. 7, I'll take it. It might be a great addition to the sideboard against 'biggins but I don't think that the main deck has any room for it (especially without tops/e-tutors).
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chikenbok
I'm not arguing against the value that can come along with a resolved Ensnaring bridge against an aggro deck, nor am I trying to play an exciting game of semantics (but if you wanna talk index I'm totally down).
IMO -- The list is too tight to cut anything really for bridge, let alone - I generally don't want to have 1 or 0 cards in my hand. I'd rather have n+1 cards in my hand where n is the number of cards in my opponents hand, even if that means 6 vs. 7, I'll take it. It might be a great addition to the sideboard against 'biggins but I don't think that the main deck has any room for it (especially without tops/e-tutors).
Fair enough...I've been using a playset of Bridge in my U/B faeries deck and I love how it can take a tempo deck and turn it into a fairly decent hard-control deck. I take out 3 Tombstalkers and 4 Delvers for 4 Bridges and some mix of Perish, Deathmark, and Engineered Explosives. It's basically a gameplan of stall, disrupt, then relax...ahhh, Ensnaring Bridge and Bitterblossom (or Jace) getting there.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Fair enough...I've been using a playset of Bridge in my U/B faeries deck and I love how it can take a tempo deck and turn it into a fairly decent hard-control deck. I take out 3 Tombstalkers and 4 Delvers for 4 Bridges and some mix of Perish, Deathmark, and Engineered Explosives. It's basically a gameplan of stall, disrupt, then relax...ahhh, Ensnaring Bridge and Bitterblossom (or Jace) getting there.
Oh trust me, in something like faeries that has access to BB and doesn't necessarily win the game at 3-5 life, boarding out your stalkers for bridges is CRUSHING to opponents who don't know what's happening. Of course, the main difference here is that I'm going into game one as the dedicated control deck - adapting game 2 to deal with, well, you know the deal.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Control Thread)
