No one will probably spell it out for you but if you read the whole post it's pretty simple to tell the problem cards are for the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by AEnesidem
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No one will probably spell it out for you but if you read the whole post it's pretty simple to tell the problem cards are for the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by AEnesidem
Not asking for a percentage, i was just saying that i didn't find any detailed descriptions or statistics on the matchup. I'll take a look at the deathblade deck in question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lejay
Not trying to get it all spelled out either, i was just fishing for some info. More often than not people do give tips on how to beat the deck in the thread. But i can see why people wouldn't.
Your esper non-deathblade is really slow against this deck. Even if you win the first set of counters, the Omnitell deck would rebuild its hand up pretty fast with the 12 cantrips in the deck. You really need to put a clock on omnitell asap. Even if you need to waste a snapcaster mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by AEnesidem
That said, the cards that come in via sideboard are either the 4 leylines or the defense grids. Accordingly, you really need to board in your disenchants regardless.
You have over 7 dead cards against Omnitell after boarding, 4 swords to plowshares, vindicate, and maybe even jace.
Bring in flusterstorm if you have it. This deck has an inherent weakness to decks like UR delver or RUG where there is a clock and a countersuit to follow.
Hell, I can never beat my brother's bant deck with omnitell.
As with most combo decks, I tend to feel that BUG decks are among the tougher matchups since they have the ability to disrupt both through hand disruption and countermagic, so going all in on defenses against one or the other doesn't completely lock them out.Quote:
Originally Posted by AEnesidem
Omnitell decks are particularly weak against hand disruption because you're generally trying to assemble a 3 card combo. As others have stated, Flusterstorm is also very strong against us (since we usually are fighting a counter war over Show & Tell).
Won an 8 man side event at GP KC with the last list I posted.
Defeated Merfolk, ANT, and Jund.
Arcane Laboratory seems like a good suggestion. Thalia, Ethersworn Canonist, Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere,... .Quote:
Originally Posted by AEnesidem
Nice! How did you end up beating AnT? That faster combo matchup just seems rough for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyT
Leyline of Sanctity owns Ant :)
Mostly this.Quote:
Originally Posted by blindspotxxx
I lost game 1 to Probe seeing double Force followed by Therapy (which earned a Force) and Duress. He still would have lost if I'd ripped Show and Tell.
Games 2 and 3 were about Leyline. Stopping their proactive disruption in addition to stopping their kill condition makes it a must deal with card. Game 2 I kept a 7 with Leyline and a turn 2 kill. Game 3 he managed to Chain of Vapor my Leyline but didn't have enough time or disruption to play through my countermagic before I killed him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blindspotxxx
While Leyline does keep them from mostly disrupting us, I think they still have the advantage since they can always just go off with Ad Nauseam (since we'll have 3-4 Forces at best to stop them), find their Chain, bounce Leyline, then kill us.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyT
This isn't even considering that they can just Silence us before going off as well.
I guess on the plus side, we don't have to even pretend they have countermagic and go for pure speed, heh.
You underestimate how much Leyline slows down ANT. They have to dig for their Chain of Vapor and disrupt all of our countermagic before they can go off. It slows their gameplan down a great deal, while allowing us to continue sculpting our hand unimpeded. ANT doesn't typically play Silence, so that point is moot. TES is a different animal though. They're fundamentally one turn faster than ANT and they play Silence. I'll grant that is a bad matchup, but straight ANT is fine if you're smart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Oh sorry for some reason I had it in my head you had played against TES.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyT
Vs Leyline, AnT / TES don't necessarily have to bounce Leyline before they go off with Ad Nauseam if they're willing to gamble that we don't have countermagic. Finding a bounce spell post-Ad Nauseam is typically academic.
As many cantrips and wishes this deck has it's unlikely you don't have a single counter for their Ad Nauseam especially since you aren't being discarded.
Lejay's list doesn't have a counter you can wish for other than Pact.Quote:
Originally Posted by blindspotxxx
Emidln's list doesn't run Leyline.
My argument is that while Leyline certainly will be a speed bump for them, I don't think people should let themselves think that the matchup becomes good because of it.
Well that's why i run a hybrid of the gp list and some cards from lejay's list. No leyline? Lol I would never run this deck without Leyline, so many black decks out there!Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
If it's too hard to look at my list from a couple pages ago I can post it again for you as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
I was talking about the main two standard lists that are being played.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyT
That being said, the two Flusterstorms in the board you have should help some, but that's again assuming you get Leyline out.
And I think we all agreed that TES is an even worse matchup due to their ability to disrupt us through Leyline with Silence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
I guess the good news then is that TES is only a small portion of any field.
Any thoughts about Drew Levin's List from Two weeks ago? Netted him 16th at an SCG Legacy Open.
Yeah and that Bryant Cook is apparently the only person who can really do well with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamGuy
No real thoughts on Drew Levin's list. It seems pretty much the same as Lejay's list with a few slight changes.
Our local LGS is actually getting to the point of being able to do 2 Legacy tournaments a week, so I got to play again last night!
After playing both Lejay and Emidln's lists, I found things I liked from both lists so I thought I'd try something crazy... and combine the elements of both I liked into one version!
Here's the list I played with last night:
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
7 Island
1 Underground Sea
3 City of Traitors
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cunning Wish
3 Dream Halls
3 Pact of Negation
4 Show and Tell
4 Omniscience
4 Enter the Infinite
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Force of Will
//Sideboard
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Swamp
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Release the Ants
1 Pact of Negation
1 Intuition
1 Trickbind
1 Rushing River
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Wipe Away
Essentially, I liked Lejay's main deck quite a bit. As funny as it is, 3 Dream Halls feels right to me - every time you draw multiples (or draw it in general), you just want to punch yourself in the balls. It's necessary, but man it's a lot worse than Show & Tell. Given our deck's weakness to hand disruption, I really wanted to go back to playing the Leylines just for those discard heavy matchups.
From Emidln's list, I really liked the proactive hand disruption option to fight Flusterstorms and to fight against opposing combo decks, so I kept that package in. I really wanted to fit the Firemind's Foresight package in but I simply didn't have enough room in the main/side to fit it in. As you can tell, my Wishboard is already pretty sparse as is.
Playing Gitaxian Probe from Lejay's list, I found that I really liked it and wanted a second one in there. The information you get on what to play around along with cantripping was just always amazing for me. So, I ended up cutting one of the lands for the second Probe.
Only 10 players for this Thursday event (we're still working on drumming up attendance since it just started recently).
3 rounds of swiss, cut to top 4.
Round 1 - vs UB Tezzeret
My opponent was new to Legacy (this was his first Legacy tournament), so it was particularly impressive that he had all the cards for the deck including the Seas and the Transmute Artifacts.
Game 1: He wins the die roll and opens with a T1: Ancient Tomb -> Chalice @ 1. Ugh. I Force of Will that and he doesn't have a Force back. I cantrip and sculpt my hand as he drops mana stones and eventually gets out a Thopter Foundry. I go off with Show & Tell -> Dream Halls -> ETI and kill him.
-1 Leyline of Sanctity
-1 Pact of Negation
+1 Rushing River
+1 Wipe Away
I left Emrakul in because I was expecting Thorn effects.
Game 2: He kept an iffy hand of 7 and while he had double FoW, I actually exercised restraint this time (I'm really learning to bide my time and be patient with this deck) and Cunning Wished for a second Pact to go along with the one in my hand before I went off.
1-0 (2-0)
Round 2 - vs Fast Zoo
This deck is actually pretty scary. It's that Zoo list that runs Experiment One, Vexing Devil, and a bunch of burn.
Game 1: He wins the die roll and leads off with T1 Nacatl, T2 Nacatl, Bolt, T3 Lightning Helix, Chain Lightning. Holy crap, my ass burns! I'm able to go off T3 though with Show & Tell -> Dream Halls -> Cunning Wish + 3 blue cards.
-3 Pact of Negation
-1 Emrakul
-2 Gitaxian Probe
+3 Leyline of Sanctity
+1 Rushing River
+1 Wipe Away
+1 Slaughter Pact
Game 2: I get stuck on 2 lands and die with Show & Tell + kill in my hand.
On the play now, so going for speed. I also should've left in the Emrakul to begin with.
-3 Leyline of Sanctity
+2 Gitaxian Probe
+1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Game 3: He leads off with T1: Experiment One, T2: Experiment One, Goblin Guide - yeesh!, T3: He drops a Vexing Devil, which I allow to stick into play and beats my face for 8 with the dubs Experiment One's. While I really wanted to Rushing River them, I stuck with my game plan and EoT Cunning Wished for Pact, then dropped an Island (I played City on my T3) for a T4 Dream Halls-> ETI. The Pact was actually needed to counter his REB!
2-0 (4-1)
Round 3 - 4 Color Delver
Game 1: I open a hand of Omniscience, EtI, Pact, 4 lands and keep. He has T1 Delver and I get more Lands, Pacts, Emrakul, and EtI's and die.
-1 Leyline of Sanctity
-4 Force of Will
+1 Pact of Negation
+4 Hand Disruption Package
Game 2: GP lets me know he has a Flusterstorm, so I make him use it on T3 with a Show & Tell (knowing I have a second one on top of my library), then get up to 5 mana on T4 to Show & Tell again. I win the fight vs his Force and have the 2 mana to pay for his double Daze.
Game 3: He gets some early beatdown and I'm forced to Show & Tell early with just Omniscience expecting to draw out a counter or two (I had a second one on top of my library). Instead, he drops a Mongoose, flashes in a Snapcaster, and I die.
2-1 (5-3)
We cut to T4 and we chop since one of the players had to go.
Still having fun with the deck and always learning something new!
After the tourhament, I played some matches against D&T and man, that matchup is just so miserable. It's certainly winable, but all those hate bears are just so annoying. Has anyone found any good way to deal with them? I was tempted to start sideboarding Massacres or something for those stupid bears...