[Deck] bUrg Tempo

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Sasan, you are rediculous. I am finding posts in comments around the internet of you defending bUrg. You rock.

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Hey thanks ;) I am already on the train to tell Drew Levin about bUrg as his Delver primer in the premium section that he just released is so awful. He proposes to play RUG Delver with 2 Volcanic Islands (!!!) and 4 (!!!) Spell Pierces. He states that Probes are not good in RUG and plays a one-off Probe. probes should be played at a number of 3-4 or zero ;). OK that was a bit off-topic. But if you have Premium read that article and watch the videos where he has no plan how to sideboard :)

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Originally Posted by Tormod

Theoretically I'm coming around on the Badlands idea. Because there have been scenarios where I felts I wanted more black sources given the amount of black in the sideboard, w golgari charm, fire covenant, etc. Having black mana open to use DRS is signficant, there have been a few times that I have wanted to use DRS when i had to tap a blue to counter a spell. It hasn't cost me a match yet, but it did delay winning and gave my opponent a little more time that i would have liked.

I do acknowledge the risk associated with running a second non-blue.

Could it replace a wasteland?
Be a 19th land?
Could we run 3 trops, 1 sea, 2 volc, 1 badlands?

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Drop the second volcanic island. It's the one land you least need in multiples, and the static-present lands you want to fetch are u sea and trop anyway. Eight fetchlands allows for optimal decisions and options of choosing which lands you want. As well, when I tried running 19 lands, I always felt the extra land... and it hurt with it not being another counter. So, try testing with one Volcanic and one Badlands or Taiga.

I sucked tonight.

R1 vs UR Delver burn (goblin guide, chain lightnings)
3 grindy games that went to time. By the end of turn 5 of extra turns, I had a Delver and Deathrite, against lands.
At my shop we prize X-1 so my opponent a regular scooped to me.
1-0

R2 vs RUG Delver
Was against a really good player, last time we played was in the 1/4 finals of a GTP.
Kicked my butt 2-0. (I ran a True-Name Nemesis for kicks in place of Goyf 3) I also ran a toxic Deluge in place of Golgari Charm 2, it got stuck in my hand. if i cast it to kill my opponents goyf, it would have killed me. Cutting both.
1-1

R3 vs Miracle (helm combo)
I got paired down to my opponent who was 0-1-1 and he scooped to me. We played for funsies, and I won game 1, I lost game 2 and 3 to helm combo. Admitted, I made play mistakes, I resolved a Notion Theif against a Jace brainstorm, but that was after my play mistake which cost me the game. I had Notion Thief and a shaman with my opponent 4 life. But the turn before I should have wastelanded his 4th land after he cast Jace, but I allowed him to untap and play a land and a batterskull.
2-1 (yeah weird)

R4 vs Dark Maverick with Thespian Stage, Dark Depths combo.
I got paired down to my opponent who was 1-2 and he scooped to me too. I lost in 2 games. Notables are getting hit by a Bojuka Bog. Attacking instead of blocking when my opponent had a jitte with 0 counters on it. I had toxlc deluge and fire covenant stuck in my hand, when they showed up using them would have killed me against an 8/8 knight. I cast True-Name this match, to have my opponent enlighten tutor for engineered plague.
3-1

So despite actually winning any of my match ups I prize. I could say it wasn't my day, that I didn't draw well. But simply my head wasn't in it and I made a lot of mistakes.

But the notes I come out with is:
-The mana was fine, it never affected the outcome of my matches.
-Toxic Deluge wasn't good for me
-True-Name Nemesis sucked for me main deck
-I want a 3rd abrupt decay somewhere.
-I've won games with Fire Covenant, but there's times it really sucked to draw.

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Originally Posted by Tormod

I sucked tonight.

R1 vs UR Delver burn (goblin guide, chain lightnings)
3 grindy games that went to time. By the end of turn 5 of extra turns, I had a Delver and Deathrite, against lands.
At my shop we prize X-1 so my opponent a regular scooped to me.
1-0

R2 vs RUG Delver
Was against a really good player, last time we played was in the 1/4 finals of a GTP.
Kicked my butt 2-0. (I ran a True-Name Nemesis for kicks in place of Goyf 3) I also ran a toxic Deluge in place of Golgari Charm 2, it got stuck in my hand. if i cast it to kill my opponents goyf, it would have killed me. Cutting both.
1-1

R3 vs Miracle (helm combo)
I got paired down to my opponent who was 0-1-1 and he scooped to me. We played for funsies, and I won game 1, I lost game 2 and 3 to helm combo. Admitted, I made play mistakes, I resolved a Notion Theif against a Jace brainstorm, but that was after my play mistake which cost me the game. I had Notion Thief and a shaman with my opponent 4 life. But the turn before I should have wastelanded his 4th land after he cast Jace, but I allowed him to untap and play a land and a batterskull.
2-1 (yeah weird)

R4 vs Dark Maverick with Thespian Stage, Dark Depths combo.
I got paired down to my opponent who was 1-2 and he scooped to me too. I lost in 2 games. Notables are getting hit by a Bojuka Bog. Attacking instead of blocking when my opponent had a jitte with 0 counters on it. I had toxlc deluge and fire covenant stuck in my hand, when they showed up using them would have killed me against an 8/8 knight. I cast True-Name this match, to have my opponent enlighten tutor for engineered plague.
3-1

So despite actually winning any of my match ups I prize. I could say it wasn't my day, that I didn't draw well. But simply my head wasn't in it and I made a lot of mistakes.

But the notes I come out with is:
-The mana was fine, it never affected the outcome of my matches.
-Toxic Deluge wasn't good for me
-True-Name Nemesis sucked for me main deck
-I want a 3rd abrupt decay somewhere.
-I've won games with Fire Covenant, but there's times it really sucked to draw.

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Yeah we already stated that TNN is not a maindeck card :) What mana base did you play? A third decay can be played in the board or instead of the third Spell Snare.

And keep up the good work :)

So now the deck dets more public : article on starcitygames : http://www.starcitygames.com/article...e-You-Bub.html
Because i'am at work i can't read it atm. I think Sasan is namedropped, but he seems to diagree in a few Points, have to read it at home.

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Originally Posted by TheKingslayer

Drop the second volcanic island. It's the one land you least need in multiples, and the static-present lands you want to fetch are u sea and trop anyway. Eight fetchlands allows for optimal decisions and options of choosing which lands you want. As well, when I tried running 19 lands, I always felt the extra land... and it hurt with it not being another counter. So, try testing with one Volcanic and one Badlands or Taiga.

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Ok let us be mathematical here:

In our maindecks we have 4 cards that need red (Bolts) and 3 that need black from time to time (Shaman - although the green ability is not often used, Shaman is a mana dork for the first few turns). 2 cards need black for removal (Decay). You need the Bolts ready asap and Shaman does not need black mana asap. But black is needed more times during a game wheres you probably just need red occasionally. It is a tie between black and red here.

So let us look at the sideboard: Fire Covenants are black and red so they do not count. Ashiok and Charm need black. REBs and Grudge need red. So we have a 2:3 ratio. So with this maindeck and sideboard we need just a little bit more red than black. But it is a close one.

Compare these numbers to green: We have 11 main deck cards that need green - as Shaman can be cast of an USea we can say 6 - and 2 sideboard cards. The main deck green creature cards are our win condition except for Delver. With these numbers it should be clear that we need as much green dual lands as possible. So 3 is a fine number. Green is our second most important colour after blue.

But do we need 3 duals that produce red? The same amount as the green ones? And is black that far behind in the color race to be left with only two duals?

With cutting one Volcanic for another fetch we have upped the black count virtually by one and the red count is the same. Only versus Dnt it can beome a problem as they can cut you of a color with Ports and Wastes. But your game breaking Charm and Fire Covenants ask at least for the same number of black duals. So if they could not cut you off black in the past, they won't achieve that with red.

So after thoroughful thinking I say: Let us go for + 1 Fetch - 1 Volcanic. We can reach Thresh faster then. That is a huge bonus.

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Originally Posted by jeanbathez

So now the deck dets more public : article on starcitygames : http://www.starcitygames.com/article...e-You-Bub.html
Because i'am at work i can't read him atm. I think Sasan is namedropped, but he seems to diagree in a few Points, have to read it at home.

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I must read that article now but the decklist he presents seems wrong.

Ok after reading I posted in the comments of the article. I invited Glenn to join the thread and discuss his list with us. I think that his TNN approach is not right - but we covered that already and tested the card thoroughly.

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Originally Posted by Sasan

Yeah we already stated that TNN is not a maindeck card :) What mana base did you play? A third decay can be played in the board or instead of the third Spell Snare.

And keep up the good work :)

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I played 2 seas, 2 volcs, 2 trops, 1 taiga, 7 fetches + 4 wasteland. (standard land package)

These are my changes:
Maindeck:
I swapped out the True-Name Nemesis back for the 3rd Goyf (I really noticed the absence of the 3rd, I think 3 works well I'm my meta)

Sideboard:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Vendilion Clique

The record of semi-good articles continues :D

http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2...rt-2-burg-bug/

Do not take that for granted what Jona states :) Carsten and I hardly lose to the tempo mirror. So the statement that bUrg loses to tempo decks is not true. The assumption that Jund beats bUrg is not true at all - it is the best tempo deck against midrange.

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Originally Posted by fdiv_bug

That's a good point and something I hadn't thought of.

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Yeah, it is a point I feel we need to discuss more. It happens to me a lot. In a deck likr bUrg that wants to win before our opponents can stabilize, I feel like upping the efficiency of DRS is really worth it.

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Originally Posted by Tormod

Theoretically I'm coming around on the Badlands idea. Because there have been scenarios where I felts I wanted more black sources given the amount of black in the sideboard, w golgari charm, fire covenant, etc. Having black mana open to use DRS is signficant, there have been a few times that I have wanted to use DRS when i had to tap a blue to counter a spell. It hasn't cost me a match yet, but it did delay winning and gave my opponent a little more time that i would have liked.

I do acknowledge the risk associated with running a second non-blue.

Could it replace a wasteland?
Be a 19th land?
Could we run 3 trops, 1 sea, 2 volc, 1 badlands?

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Given the issue, I would still not add a second non blue dual. play Taiga OR Badlands, not both.

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Originally Posted by Sasan

I think that running 19 lands - one more than RUG - with a deck that has Shamans is wrong. We only have 29 Spells as we play 13 creatures and with a 19th land the spell count is 28 and the Delver blind flip rate is weakened. I know that some people say that you only need 25 spells to flip Delver but I want a real high chance of flipping him and do not want to waste a cantrip for that.


So You should play 18 lands and it can only be Taiga or Badlands. Both choices are understandable. I want to be able to cast creatures without blue lands, therefore Taiga rules.


Florian Koch states the following and I cannot agree more on that:

"The mana base is probably just what you would expect from this deck. Some people have inquired about Taiga, as that one is so bad in RUG Delver. The Taiga can still be annoying, but it is necessary as it’s often critical to have all colors available with just two lands. If you take into account that you want to be able to cast Abrupt Decay with these two lands, then there are just two options. Either you have Taiga in your deck and go for Taiga plus Underground Sea, or you add Badlands and go for Badlands plus Tropical Island. However, the Taiga variant is much more desirable than Badlands as you can cast all 14 non-blue spells with Taiga instead of just 9 with Badlands. Ergo Taiga is a bad land, but Badlands is worse."

If you want more black sources cut a Volcanic for another Underground Sea. I already stated that 3 red sources might be too much in bUrg although we must see if REBs become utterly important in the TNN meta. An 8th fetch might work, too. And a secret tech of some RUG Delver players is to have a 19th land for tempo mirrors in the SB. For mana demanding matchups that could work, too. Although I would love to see a basic island in the sideboard for more reliance. But as the mana base is rock solid in bUrg it is not that much needed.

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Definitely gonna try -1 Volc +1 fetch first simply because I do not have Deltas atm for Badlands.:tongue:

How crazy am I: Werebear?

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Originally Posted by thefringthing

How crazy am I: Werebear?

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I lol'd. I guess of you don't have Goyfs, Werebear's the best sub.:tongue:

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Originally Posted by Sasan

Hey thanks ;) I am already on the train to tell Drew Levin about bUrg as his Delver primer in the premium section that he just released is so awful. He proposes to play RUG Delver with 2 Volcanic Islands (!!!) and 4 (!!!) Spell Pierces. He states that Probes are not good in RUG and plays a one-off Probe. probes should be played at a number of 3-4 or zero ;). OK that was a bit off-topic. But if you have Premium read that article and watch the videos where he has no plan how to sideboard :)

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I wouldn't trust Drew Levin when it comes to RUG. If I remember correctly, he suggested cutting the stifles before.

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Originally Posted by cheerios

I wouldn't trust Drew Levin when it comes to RUG. If I remember correctly, he suggested cutting the stifles before.

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Yep that is right. He is not playing the archetype that often.

I never really understood why he hated Stifles that much. I'll look for his article on it when I get home. Anyway, I almost never hold up Stufle T1 on the play unless I'm keeping a one lander or if my one drop is Goose. Watcha think?:smile:.

That is reasonale as developing pressure on the play is great. But if I am paired to a bad matchup I would hold Stifle and hope that I can get a free win by sinkholing the opponent ;-)

On Glenn Jones' article, he really makes a good argument about a few issues with the deck. But is it true that a lot of European RUG players started losing after making the switch? :tongue:

Fire//Ice over the 2nd Abrupt Decay seems okay. I haven't let go of my 2nd A.D., but if I do I'd probably swap in Fire // Ice as well.

More U. Sea + Taiga VS Trops + Badlands argument. If only I had Deltas I'd make the switch in a heartbeat.:tongue:

Although I'm pretty grateful to Taiga. Last tourney, I won versus Junk with a resolved Choke by fetching Taiga and playing Gooses + Bolts. Managed to break a KotR after drawing a fetchland (he had Urborg in play). I would have died a miserable death if I had Badlands instead.

No we did not start losing. I do not know where he takes his insights ;-).

Fire/Ice handles far less spells than Decay. Decaying a Counterbalance, Chalice,Aether Vial, Goyf etc. is huuuge:-)

So I just came home from a local charity tourney (all proceeds to be donated to the victims of the super typhoon Haiyan) and finished 2-2. 20 players competed for a foil Misty Rainforest and a GP Hong Kong playmat.

R1 - Sneak Show (0-2)

Done in 2 games. This was just bad. G1 I mull'd to 4 and ended up with 2 Wasteland 1 Goyf 1 Ponder. He went T2 Griselbrand and I scooped. G2, a misplay on my part ended the game. After Daze-ing his T2 SnT (off of City of Traitors) I played the Trops again to Ponder instead of Wasteland-ing him. T3 he played Ponder, Lotus Petal, Fetchland (floating 2 of course), SnT. I Force'd, he Flusterstorm'd off of Petal ftw.

0-1-0

R2 - MUD (2-1)

G1 - T1 Delver and hoped for the best. I already knew he was playing MUD, so when I lost the roll I knew I was in for trouble. My opener had no FoW, just 1 land and Wasteland plus cantrips and Delver. Luckily no Chalice on his T1. He managed to drop a T3 Batterskull of of Grim Monolith that met no resistance. He dropped me down to 4 with Lodestone + Batterskull. A bolt on Lodestone and the dropping a Goyf (5/6) meant I could stall him while Delver did his thing. Won that one.

G2 - A 2nd Metalworker (I had Bolt'd the first) meant he would be having no mana issues whatsoever. Voltaic Key + Kuldotha fetching Greaves and Blightsteel ended the game quickly.

G3 - This was a close one, but T1 Delver meant all I needed was to delay him. Luckily, bUrg went bonkers and manascrewed him with Wastelands. He had a T3 Chalice for 1 (I had FoW'd the T2 Chalice) but that couldn't stop Delver who had already dealt him 6. Dropped a Goyf on T4 and proceeded to end the game there.

1-1-0

R3 - DNT (0-2)

This was my testing buddy. Mull to 4 on G1, 'nuf said. G2 I had Decay'd his Vial and left him manascrewed after 2 Wastes. Goyf had him down to 6 but he was able to topdeck lands and managed to stall me. A few turns later he has Batterskull, Jitte, SofI, SFM, Revoker (on DRS) and Thalia and play and that was that.

1-2-0

R4 - Bant Maverick (2-1)

G1 - Double Stifle and double Wasteland meant my opponent couldn't play the game, especially since he decided to StP my DRS. I won with T2 Delver going all the way.

G2 - He managed to get a Vendillion Clique equipped with a SofI. I made a mistake of Bolting a T1 Noble Hierarch. I started digging for removal but to no avail. GG.

G3 - Close game here. I managed to Submerge an SFM in response to the SFM trigger and then later on Submerged a KotR in response to him searching for a land off of it. GG there. Goose did all the work here as he exhausted his StP's on my Delver and Goyf. Later on he managed to GSZ an Ooze. I BS'd for a DRS and with him having only 1 green source, that was the game right there.

2-2-0

Overall pretty happy with how the deck performed. Here's the list I played:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Disfigure
SB: 2 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction

I tried cutting the Forked Bolt for the Disfigure. It was meh. They both have their merits but since I was cutting a Volc, I imagined I'd be trying to fetch red less and decided to go Disfigure. There was a total of 2 times in the tourney where I was thankful I drew it instead of Forked Bolt and both were not related to mana restrictions.

The Surgical Extraction was because I was expecting Reanimator and Dredge. True enough they were there, but I wasn't able to play them. I might swap the Nihil Spellbomb for Gafdigger's Cage sometime soon. Cage really has a lot more applications, and I don't think I'd need another Goose killer, DRS should do fine. :tongue:

P.S. Added Sasan on Facebook LOL