Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Emo
I know I will get absolutely blasted for asking this question but instead of having a second library in the board, is there any merit to running a one of JTMS in the board? I know he is clunky BUT he pitches to force, has more utility to than library, dodges decay and most hate, and is always an alternate win con in complete grindfests but 4cmc is a lot for this deck.
Your last sentence explains why I play Sylvan over Jace in my sideboard. Sylvan is good in any of the matchups where Jace is good, but I can also bring it in against decks that attack the mana base, because it only costs 2. So I get to side it in versus Canadian Thresh and Death and Taxes, where Jace would be uncastable and would therefore not be sided in.
Yes, Jace is the more versatile card in itself, but Sylvan is the more versatile sideboard option, because it has uses against more matchups.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
I actively board out sylvan against canadian where every two drop i play should be named tarmogoyf or tombstalker, and i have no qualms brining in JTMS against D&T where postboard games go super long (if you have enough removal).
I prefer Jace in the sideboard because he is more powerfull in the matchups where i want that effect, Sylvan is a bit more edible in a larger set of matchups (combo etc.) and is better if you don't board in enough interaction to stretch the game to the stage where you have 4 mana
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Goddik
I actively board out sylvan against canadian where every two drop i play should be named tarmogoyf or tombstalker
It is my personal opinion that this is a very, very wrong decision.
Sylvan Library is absolutely brilliant against Canadian Threshold.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
@phazonmutant: I concur on Confidant. I think he's pretty bad in this deck in general since we don't have the ability to control the board as well as a deck like Jund so we can't stabilize and drop a Bob to drown our opponent in card advantage. Better to have Library so we can control when we want to sacrifice life to draw an extra card while still netting incremental card advantage by getting to "top" every draw step.
@Goddik: I would not board out Sylvan against RUG. It's still helps out a lot in the matchup even if you can't really draw an extra card all that often. It's just really good to be able to rearrange the top three cards of our library every draw step when we're usually forced to play the control role against them so that we have better card quality than them. I assume you only play it as a one of so you should have enough two drops to where that usually isn't your only turn two play in hand.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Against RUG, Sylvan has been either really good or really bad for me. It's one of those cards that if you get it down and they don't have much pressure on you, just finding lands each turn alone will probably win you the game. However, it's also a card that won't do anything for you (or worse, grow their Tarmogoyfs if it gets countered) if you're under a lot of pressure unlike a Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
Against RUG, Sylvan has been either really good or really bad for me. It's one of those cards that if you get it down and they don't have much pressure on you, just finding lands each turn alone will probably win you the game. However, it's also a card that won't do anything for you (or worse, grow their Tarmogoyfs if it gets countered) if you're under a lot of pressure unlike a Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker.
That's true, but I think that's just the nature of the card really. I try not play the card until it's out range of their soft counters so not till turn 4 really. I still think it's worth it even if doesn't get there all the time because it makes your late game robust the longer it's on the field.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
Against RUG, Sylvan has been either really good or really bad for me. It's one of those cards that if you get it down and they don't have much pressure on you, just finding lands each turn alone will probably win you the game. However, it's also a card that won't do anything for you (or worse, grow their Tarmogoyfs if it gets countered) if you're under a lot of pressure unlike a Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker.
Same counts for Hymn to Tourach, but that one is harder to cast.
Do you keep Force of Will in against Canadian?
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dragonslayer_90
That's true, but I think that's just the nature of the card really. I try not play the card until it's out range of their soft counters so not till turn 4 really. I still think it's worth it even if doesn't get there all the time because it makes your late game robust the longer it's on the field.
I keep it in, but I just think it's not as good vs RUG as opposed to most other decks simply because of their ability to potentially apply pressure so early.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Same counts for Hymn to Tourach, but that one is harder to cast.
Do you keep Force of Will in against Canadian?
I'm not a huge fan of Hymn vs RUG. Late game it's pretty bad since they can deploy their threats so early. Early game the BB makes it significantly harder to case than 1G. I'll usually trim some FoW / Daze depending on if I'm on the play/draw but I never cut either completely. While the card disadvantage of FoW sucks, I feel it's a necessary evil (especially on the draw) to keep from getting overrun early on.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
I'm not a huge fan of Hymn vs RUG. Late game it's pretty bad since they can deploy their threats so early. Early game the BB makes it significantly harder to case than 1G. I'll usually trim some FoW / Daze depending on if I'm on the play/draw but I never cut either completely. While the card disadvantage of FoW sucks, I feel it's a necessary evil (especially on the draw) to keep from getting overrun early on.
So how do you side exactly?
EDIT: Last time I played against Canadian Thresh, I tried this:
- OTP: -2 Hymn, -4 Force / +3 Disfigure, +1 Clique, +1 Lily, +1 Sylvan
- OTD: -4 Hymn, -4 Daze / +3 Disfigure, +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Clique, +1 Lily, +1 Sylvan
Is this incorrect?
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
So how do you side exactly?
EDIT: Last time I played against Canadian Thresh, I tried this:
- OTP: -2 Hymn, -4 Force / +3 Disfigure, +1 Clique, +1 Lily, +1 Sylvan
- OTD: -4 Hymn, -4 Daze / +3 Disfigure, +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Clique, +1 Lily, +1 Sylvan
Is this incorrect?
Post your list? What you bring in/out really depends on that.
I don't like Spell Pierce in the matchup. You -might- catch a cantrip with it, which is about it. The important thing to stop is their threats.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Daze on the draw puts us behind on tempo. That's a pretty dangerous thing to do against Canadian Thresh. Postboard example:
CT1: Volcanic, cast Delver.
TA1: Fetch Sea (TA=19), cast Deathrite.
CT2: Delver flips. Attack for 3 (TA=16). Play Fetch. Cast Bolt on Deathrite. Go.
TA2: Play Bayou. Cast Tarmogoyf - resp. CT fetches Tropical (CT=19), Snare the Goyf.
Would you Daze here? Say we do. They have no Daze themselves, so Goyf resolves (optimal for us).
CT3: Attack for 3 (TA=13). Cast cantrip. Submerge the Goyf. Waste Bayou.
We now have two lands, a flipped Delver and a life lead of six against an empty board, even though Daze was supposed to be good. That's why I don't play Daze on the draw.
Sylvan is there for the midgame, where Hymn is rediculously weak. They have the reach to kill us with any topdeck, so we should make sure we have the better topdecks. Hymn to Tourach is also tempo-adverse, but it has the worse casting cost. Maybe there's a point to be made for Hymn over Sylvan on the play (better chance to cast it, and it might prematurely remove potential threats or removal), but on the draw Hymn is just plain worse than Sylvan.
My main deck (pretty standard stuff):
4x Delver, 4x Deathrite, 4x Goyf, 2x Stalker
4x Brainstorm, 4x Ponder, 4x Force, 4x Daze, 4x Hymn, 4x Decay, 1x Sylvan, 1x Lily
4x Sea, 2x Bayou, 1x Tropical, 9x Fetch, 4x Wasteland
Sideboard:
4 Spell Pierce
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique /15
The sideboard changes all the time, but to see what I should board against Canadian, this should be enough info. If I decide to change something, it'll be quite clear what the change should be in my boarding. :cool: (I'm thinking about going -1 Sylvan, -1 Pierce, -1 Grip, (-1?), +3-4 Stifle. That seems sweet in my current meta. No one would expect them, and they are good against many of the popular decks right now.)
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Daze on the draw puts us behind on tempo. That's a pretty dangerous thing to do against Canadian Thresh. Postboard example:
CT1: Volcanic, cast Delver.
TA1: Fetch Sea (TA=19), cast Deathrite.
CT2: Delver flips. Attack for 3 (TA=16). Play Fetch. Cast Bolt on Deathrite. Go.
TA2: Play Bayou. Cast Tarmogoyf - resp. CT fetches Tropical (CT=19), Snare the Goyf.
Would you Daze here? Say we do. They have no Daze themselves, so Goyf resolves (optimal for us).
CT3: Attack for 3 (TA=13). Cast cantrip. Submerge the Goyf. Waste Bayou.
We now have two lands, a flipped Delver and a life lead of six against an empty board, even though Daze was supposed to be good. That's why I don't play Daze on the draw.
Sylvan is there for the midgame, where Hymn is rediculously weak. They have the reach to kill us with any topdeck, so we should make sure we have the better topdecks. Hymn to Tourach is also tempo-adverse, but it has the worse casting cost. Maybe there's a point to be made for Hymn over Sylvan on the play (better chance to cast it, and it might prematurely remove potential threats or removal), but on the draw Hymn is just plain worse than Sylvan.
My main deck (pretty standard stuff):
4x Delver, 4x Deathrite, 4x Goyf, 2x Stalker
4x Brainstorm, 4x Ponder, 4x Force, 4x Daze, 4x Hymn, 4x Decay, 1x Sylvan, 1x Lily
4x Sea, 2x Bayou, 1x Tropical, 9x Fetch, 4x Wasteland
Sideboard:
4 Spell Pierce
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique /15
The sideboard changes all the time, but to see what I should board against Canadian, this should be enough info. If I decide to change something, it'll be quite clear what the change should be in my boarding. :cool: (I'm thinking about going -1 Sylvan, -1 Pierce, -1 Grip, (-1?), +3-4 Stifle. That seems sweet in my current meta. No one would expect them, and they are good against many of the popular decks right now.)
I mean, I understand the argument, but we can't cherry pick plays like this an call them evidence (I admit, however, that I am guilty of doing so in the past).
We are just as likely to have Decay for their Delver as we have Goyf; what then? Obviously, the game changes. Maybe they cantrip for a beater, disposing of that snare. Then, if they drop a Goyf your daze gets good.
I like Daze since it helps 1) protect the ever-valuable Underground Sea and 2) helps us survive till the late game, where we demolish them.
Just my thoughts.
(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
We are just as likely to have Decay for their Delver as we have Goyf; what then? Obviously, the game changes. Maybe they cantrip for a beater, disposing of that snare. Then, if they drop a Goyf your daze gets good.
Sandbagging Daze means we run the bigger risk of them being able to play around it, making it a dead card. That might be even more dangerous than just using it as soon as we can.
I feel that Daze makes us less likely to survive the early game, where you feel Daze actually helps us to do exactly that. That's pretty weird. Why don't you post a couple of examples where Daze on the draw is good for us? I can post a list of them where Daze is bad, so I'd like to see why you have your view. (That seems more productive than us calling each other noobs and inexperienced and stuff. :tongue: :wink:)
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Hi guys,
Could someone help me Sideboarding against Sneak Attack?
My list is almost the same Dominguez GP Paris list, with 2 Lilianas, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Dark Confidants and 3 FoWs maindeck.
I want to side in 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Surgical Extraction, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Force of Will, 1 Vendilion Clique, Pithing Needle and maybe 1 Krosan Grip.
That's a lot of cards, while I only want to side out the 4 Abrupt Decay.
Maybe I could side out a dual, a couple Tarmogoyfs? and maybe even some amount of Hymn? (I run 3 maindeck)
I don't know, maybe my SB is completely wrong.
Thank you
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BVB09
Hi guys,
Could someone help me Sideboarding against Sneak Attack?
My list is almost the same Dominguez GP Paris list, with 2 Lilianas, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Dark Confidants and 3 FoWs maindeck.
I want to side in 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Surgical Extraction, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Force of Will, 1 Vendilion Clique, Pithing Needle and maybe 1 Krosan Grip.
That's a lot of cards, while I only want to side out the 4 Abrupt Decay.
Maybe I could side out a dual, a couple Tarmogoyfs? and maybe even some amount of Hymn? (I run 3 maindeck)
I don't know, maybe my SB is completely wrong.
Thank you
Cut 1 Bayou, 4 Decay, and X Tarmogoyf (in your case, looks like it'd be 2-3). You could also consider cutting the 4th underground sea, but seeing as you want to resolve 3-drops this is more risky.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BVB09
Hi guys,
Could someone help me Sideboarding against Sneak Attack?
My list is almost the same Dominguez GP Paris list, with 2 Lilianas, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Dark Confidants and 3 FoWs maindeck.
I want to side in 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Surgical Extraction, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Force of Will, 1 Vendilion Clique, Pithing Needle and maybe 1 Krosan Grip.
That's a lot of cards, while I only want to side out the 4 Abrupt Decay.
Maybe I could side out a dual, a couple Tarmogoyfs? and maybe even some amount of Hymn? (I run 3 maindeck)
I don't know, maybe my SB is completely wrong.
Thank you
The only thing I disagree with about your sbing is the siding in of your enchantment removal. It's only a corner case that you will catch Sneak and Show with their pants down where they put sneak attack into play without being able to activate it at least once. Thus I don't like having krosan grip. Uncounterable yes but still a three drop for an effect you don't necessarily want most of the time. Now, golgari charm I can understand siding two in if you want to have the versatility to destroy potential leyline of sanctities and blood moons postboard. However, the plan you can also take is just keeping in two abrupt decays. Many sneak and show decks try to make you unable to play magic by blood mooning you early. The problem with trying to golgari charm it is that if they can force of will it they often will in order to try and lock you out for most part. Abrupt Decay's pretty dead against sneak and show but I prefer this line of sideboarding as long as sneak and show players are regularly doing blood moon shenanigans. Worst case scenario you shuffle it away with brainstorm.
So with your list I would consider the following lines of sbing: -3 Goyf -1 Bayou or a hymn, -2 Decay, +1 Surgical, +2 Pierce, +1 FoW, +1 clique, +1 Pithing Needle or you take out the other two decays and bring in two charms while everything else is done the same. Feel free to disagree with me but I thought I'd provide some food for thought. Also, I've known some sneak players to side in pyroclasm against Team America, in which case you might want to side out only one goyf and side out the two bobs instead. Hope this was helpful. Let me know if you have any questions or comments.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dragonslayer_90
The only thing I disagree with about your sbing is the siding in of your enchantment removal. It's only a corner case that you will catch Sneak and Show with their pants down where they put sneak attack into play without being able to activate it at least once. Thus I don't like having krosan grip.
For the Krosan Grip I say yes, you are right. Grip is a bit too much.
But the Charms are a necessity, because we just lose to Blood Moon.
Other than that, I add my voice to cutting Goyfs. You can easily cut two of those. Confidant is better, because it draws you more disruption. The Decays are of course pretty bad, so they should also go. Cutting one Bayou should also be fine. I actually also tried -4 Wasteland in this matchup, because they need the Sol Lands only once anyway. I wasn't disappointed, but all in all I think cutting one Bayou should be better.
In this matchup you really want the Cliques though. If you run into a lot of Sneak&Show, you should add 1-2 of those to your board.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Thank you very much for the comments guys, everything said looks reasonsble.
I will try those plans, and I agree Grip may be too much, but I liked that it could be cast without black mana. But now that I thought about it this doesnt matter as we are not running basics. I was thinking in Shardless BUG terms, where I run a couple basics.
In the Abrupt Decay vs Golgari Charm discussion I may be wrong. When playing Stoneblade I side in enchantment removal just in case I have the opportunity to kill Sneak attack before it kills me. But again it's a diferent deck that for example has Karakas to interact once the hasty fattie is in play. So yeah, uncounterability may be more importantin this deck.
I'm quite new to it and I have to discover yet how to best sideboard in these deck. The problem is that everything maindeck is too good.
Thanks guys!
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Daze on the draw puts us behind on tempo. That's a pretty dangerous thing to do against Canadian Thresh. Postboard example:
CT1: Volcanic, cast Delver.
TA1: Fetch Sea (TA=19), cast Deathrite.
CT2: Delver flips. Attack for 3 (TA=16). Play Fetch. Cast Bolt on Deathrite. Go.
TA2: Play Bayou. Cast Tarmogoyf - resp. CT fetches Tropical (CT=19), Snare the Goyf.
Would you Daze here? Say we do. They have no Daze themselves, so Goyf resolves (optimal for us).
CT3: Attack for 3 (TA=13). Cast cantrip. Submerge the Goyf. Waste Bayou.
We now have two lands, a flipped Delver and a life lead of six against an empty board, even though Daze was supposed to be good. That's why I don't play Daze on the draw.
Sylvan is there for the midgame, where Hymn is rediculously weak. They have the reach to kill us with any topdeck, so we should make sure we have the better topdecks. Hymn to Tourach is also tempo-adverse, but it has the worse casting cost. Maybe there's a point to be made for Hymn over Sylvan on the play (better chance to cast it, and it might prematurely remove potential threats or removal), but on the draw Hymn is just plain worse than Sylvan.
Not going to start naming plays where Daze is good/bad OTD. :smile: In the example you brought Daze was not bad, but canadian just had the nuts. How would this play out if you don't have daze - goyf is countered - and he submerges your Tombstalker later on?
Sometimes it sets you back in tempo where you have to decide based on the game state if it is correct to daze or not. Sometimes you don't daze if you need the land drops (juhuu at least some skill needed to play this deck). The good thing about this matchup though is that daze is very often live late. Canadian will try to have 3 lands maximum and still cast multiple spells a turn/in your turn. And later in the game (but also often enough early) you just replay a land or shuffle it away where the cost of daze is virtually 0, but it can still be a gamebreaker or trade favorable.
On Sylvan Library: sure, it is a powerful card and it will win you games sometimes vs. Canadian if you cleared/dominate the board and use it as win condition on 10 life, but it is not a common scenario. If you are under pressure it might just be like timewalking yourself. The luxury to draw extra cards is rare hence it is a worse mirris guile!! Compare that to playing against miracles/esper where your life is not under attack and they play STP. The game might go long and you often get to draw 3+ extra cards. Vs. Canadian you need to have as much board impact as possible.
With your list I would board OTD
-4 Force
-2 Hymn
-1 Daze
-1 Sylvan
+1 Clique
+1 Lili
+3 Disfigure
+3 Spell Pierce
On the play I would side the same way except -1 spell pierce vs. the 4th daze.
Hymn is often not a bad card but is not powerful early (not impacting the board, mana trouble and tough to resolve). Say the board is cleared/stalled a good canadian player will always have some cards in hand mid-late game that might impact your next business spell. In these situations Hymn is pretty good.
