Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
I run two Knights as well and I'm quite satisfied with it. It provides good utility and is decent beater. Two let's you draw it more often naturally (which isn't a bad thing) and it gives you a back-up when they can remove it.
Rolling Spoil was cute tech, but with DRS and Goyf in the picture instead of hordes of URX's X/1 hordes, I would rather have Toxic Deluge as reliable sweeper instead of gimmicky LD. So I'm running 2 Deluge in the MD now and like it alot.
This deck also placed in a daily recently. I'm not entirely sold on completely removing MD Chokes for the online meta since it's still 79% blue decks despite the TC ban (budget reasons to due Wasteland's price maybe? :eyebrow: ). The list also ran MD Deluges, 2 KotRs and a CoW, which I agree with. Running Siege Rhinos is debatable.
I originally wanted to run rhino but cut it because its way to akward to cast at times and if you're casting it off an ancient tomb you lose so much value, baloth is just much better, i was running 2 coursers in my build but I think il add a thragtusk. Also considering adding maybe a sylvan caratyid or some sort of 2 drop gsz target. I like the toxic deluge but they seem painful. I think ill try 1 maelstrom pulse, 1 deluge, seeing as how most the time with trinispheere in playing abrupt decay is just uncounterable maelstrom pulse. Also tempted to add gofy or gofys just because I own them and in the miracle match up my clock is way 2 slow letting them sometimes grab a win.
Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andrewimperial
I originally wanted to run rhino but cut it because its way to akward to cast at times and if you're casting it off an ancient tomb you lose so much value, baloth is just much better, i was running 2 coursers in my build but I think il add a thragtusk. Also considering adding maybe a sylvan caratyid or some sort of 2 drop gsz target. I like the toxic deluge but they seem painful. I think ill try 1 maelstrom pulse, 1 deluge, seeing as how most the time with trinispheere in playing abrupt decay is just uncounterable maelstrom pulse. Also tempted to add gofy or gofys just because I own them and in the miracle match up my clock is way 2 slow letting them sometimes grab a win.
Toxic Deluge is only painful if you have to clear big Goyfs. Otherwise, you rarely have to pay more than 2 life to wipe the board.
I'm not too sure if you're going to be happy with Goyf. Sometimes it gets big due to us running enchantments and artifacts, but that depends alot on the opponent.
If you really wanted a 2-drop, I would rather run Pridemage in that slot.
And I encourage people to try out the E-Tutor board with RiP and O-Ring.
Edit:
After some further testing, I cut one of my two SB Karakas to make room for my third Deluge (aside from the two MD ones). Karakas might be nice against Reanimator and Sneak & Show, but I haven't faced any of those decks recently and according to Goldfish, their combined appearence is below 10%. Toxic Deluge is just an All-Star against all kinds of creature-based decks and often MVP. It also brings the list back to the original 5 sweepers postboard.
While I like having two CoWs in the deck, I went back to a 3/1 split between Choke/CoW. The meta is still too cancerous blue to afford cutting down on Choke too much and I don't have the MD space for a second CoW.
E-Tutor still needs more testing to determine its value. If things don't work out, I could easily go to -2 E-Tutor, +1 Ooze, +1 O-Ring (yes, it is that nice).
Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
Sorry for the double post, but a little update:
Even with Karakas and RiP, Reanimator is an uphill battle. RiP is often too slow when they're going first or they have AD/bounce to punch through it. Karakas doesn't help much when they draw lots of cards with Griselbrand and dump something like Grave Titan into the yard.
I'll try out -2 E-Tutor -2 RiP +4 Leyline if the Void instead. Still awesome against Dredge and uncounterable GY hate against Reanimator that catches everything (and in the online meta, they typically run only 2 bounce spells and no S&T in the board; their AD does nothing against it). Might make Ooze and requirement against, but I can't find slots to fit it in unless I go to 61 cards in the MD.
How do people feel about Kalonian Hydra now? Especially after with the double KotR/Toxic Deluge configuration, I rarely feel like fetching it up. The combo with Spike Weaver is cute, but how often do you realistically pull it off? Depending on the board state, Titania + an active KotR can easily add 20-25 power on the board after she enters play to end the game right in the next turn.
Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
Hey guys, I am new to this deck, and I was wondering if you guys could help me with a few cards in the sideboard. I tried skimming the primer and posts in the forums but I could not find the specifics of what I was looking for.
First off, I am shamelessly copying Lejay's latest list:
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Rolling Spoil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
4 Choke
4 Sylvan Library
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Giant Solifuge
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Karakas
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Massacre
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spike Weaver
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Toxic Deluge
I was wondering what matchups Giant Solifuge, Kalonian Hydra, and Spike Weaver were for in the sideboard. What kind of cards are you guys replacing when you bring them in?
Thanks!
Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ironclad8690
For comparison, my current list.
Lejay's list is a good starting point, but a few things to add:
- the meta is less aggressive, so you can get away with 2 Baloths. I would run another KotR instead since it's a very powerful card in this deck
- Rolling Spoil was cute during the TC, but with Goyf, DRS and friends being back with a vengeance, Toxic Deluge is so much better (and less taxing on the mana - :1::g::g::b: - c'mon guys). Accidently, it also solves flipped Delvers.
As for sideboard, while I wasn't initially a fan of Giant Solifuge, it has grown to like it. It's good against combo and control decks (where you need to gib their Planeswalkers).
Spike Weaver is pretty good against anything which relies on attack damage to win.
I do question the inclusion of the Kalonian Hydra, though. The combo with Weaver is good, but it has never come up for me. And I basically never fetched for it by itself.
Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
Went 2-0-1 in my local this week. This deck rules! Played lejay's latest daily list, but I only own 3 sylvan libraries and no massacres, so I put drown and sorrow in their place and obstinate baloth 3 in the spot of library 4 because I am a timmy at heart.
Round 1 beat miracles because of choke games 1 and 2.
Round 2 beat uwr blade in 3. Game I lost had TNN with a skull on it, games I won because of rolling spoil and choke, with help from deluge.
Round 3 vs Maverick early thalia + teeg keeps me off zenith and i am overrun. Game 2 was grindy, but kalonian and spike weaver lock it up. Game 3 we went to time, but he had a containment priest and i was a little mana screwed with tower of the magistrate, wasteland, forest and swamp out (knight, baloth, and courser in hand). I was not expecting priest, so i fetched a swamp thinking gsz-drs would let me cast the stuff in my hand, but priest stopped me.
Great run though, and I will definitely keep playing the deck as long as brainstorm is legal.
Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
I didn't play the deck in a while so I tried several changes proposed by barook. Oblivion x2 with 2 savannah cutting my pulse and my sb trinisphere to improve show and tell match-ups (especially sneak show) was the idea i liked the most even though it hasn't been relevant in the daily.
I had 1 rolling 1 deluge in the end of cruise era and was planning on going back to 2x spoil with the ban. I kept the split after barook's post, but mainly to save a sideboard slot for the third leyline. Sb ghost quarter compensates the loss of the second spoil in the 75. I think it's a really good card in this deck and not just to replace tomb versus burn. It is probably worthwhile exploring a build with 4 mox diamonds, 4 ghost quarter, upping the land count and cutting tombs down to 0-1.
I prefer running 1 knight 3 baloth though and keeping the three forests.
I prefer 2 KotR/2 Baloth split. Not having a 4th basic hasn't been an issue for me so far since most of the deck is operational at 3 mana already. And KotR is a much higher impact card compared to Baloth imho.
I've tried 3 Moxen with 24 lands before and wasn't exactly a fan of it. Each Moxen also increases the number of dead draws.
If you want to go deeper into Ghost Quarter territory, wouldn't running at least 2 KotR to fetch it be beneficial? Such a build would certainly benefit from CoW as well for the Strip Mine lock. As always, space is tight, but I'd love to hear the results.
How has Leyline of the Void been so far? I'd like to run a combo between LotV, 1 DRS and 1 Ooze to cover the full spectrum of hate, but as it stands right now, Ooze is my 61st MD card which isn't ideal.
I know it's the danger of cool things, but if Leyline works, we could consider Helm of Obedience as SB tech for the combo kill and as troll card against decks bringing RiP in against us. We do have the mana base to power out the combo at a reasonable pace, but it's questionable if and where it's worth it.
Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
Yes of course a build with 4 Mox and quarters would be quite different. I probably won't try that as I work on other decks in legacy and focus on modern atm.
Leyline was nice. I was happy with just 3+1 sb ooze.
Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
Leyline was nice. I was happy with just 3+1 sb ooze.
Against what decks did you use Leyline so far? I don't like the thought of trying to mull for Leyline with only 3 in the deck against stuff like Reanimator or Dredge.
And I can't emphasize enough how good Toxic Deluge is. It just wins me so many games where I had no business winning. Thus, I find your split with Rolling Spoil is rather odd. I do think that having more creature removal/quality sweepers available is more important than (basic) land destruction. But maybe that's just a difference in playstyle.
If you really want to expand the LD aspect of the game, I would rather look at your suggestion of Ghost Quarter. 1-2 GQ with 2 CoW (I'm a fan, but space is the main issue for me to run the second copy), 4 Wastelands and Knight support could be very strong. GQ obviously eats into the Ancient Tomb slots. Cutting 1 Tomb might work, but things might get iffy if more are cut. And I don't think cutting into Wasteland slots for more GQs is a good idea, although I might be wrong.
Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
yesterday I kept this hand against a 4c Delver deck and got punished hard. Would you guys keep this hand against a known Delver opponent?
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Choke
1 Trinisphere
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Wasteland
I figured at least it had a permanent mana source in the forest, and I felt like even if a spell gets dazed and a spell gets forced at least I still get to resolve something good. I sequenced my plays as such: turn 3 trinisphere (dazed), Turn 4 Courser (decayed) and then turn 5 Choke, but he had a true name and a deathrite and I couldn't really climb back even with a titania.
I am just trying to get a feel of what hands are mulligans and what hands are keeps, and I have never really played a stompy shell before.
Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
You had no action before T3, which is pretty terrible. I'm not expert regarding mulligans, but I try to get at least something going against my opponent on T2 at the latest.
On a different note:
I cut one Leyline for a second Banishing Light in the SB. I like the O-Ring effect and found myself siding it in as extra removal quite often, so 2 copies seems like a good number.
And I still question Kalonion Hydra - is it really better than other non-GY-dependent finishers, e.g. Sigarda? I know there's the combo with Weaver, but to me, that's rather Magical Christmasland than actually coming up often.
Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
I only just started to play the deck and I've started with Barook's latest posted list from Feb 9th. So my comments are based on very limited experience. But I like the deck and think it deserves a more active discussion therefore I'll post.
I'm playing Barook's list with maindeck +1 Deluge (3), +1 Thragtusk, +1 Sc.Ooze and -1 Trini, -1 CoW, -1 Courser. I'm playing against a lot of mid range and creature based decks, that's why I have 3 Deluges main, 1 in the board and 2 Massacres in the board. Trini mostly seems relevant vs the combo decks so I have a third copy in the board. To up the number in the main I would add some land destruction (Ghost Quarters or Rolling Spoils). I had some games where it seemed like I was just playing Coursers, Sylvans and Crucibles, not managing to interact much. So I've added a sweeper and life gaining power creatures. Tusk is good vs planeswalkers, Ooze is good vs the gy strategies. While also gaining life and being good beaters, adding to the pressure and strategy of the deck.
Also I feel like I'm hedging by adding a Deluge to the main - playing plenty of Chalice, Choke and Trinisphere makes it easy to die to a t1 Delver, t2 Mystic or a t3 TNN. In the matchups where Chalice/Choke/Trini are great (Combo/Control and in general blue decks) the Deluge is usually less relevant. In the other matchups Deluge is king (non-blue creature based decks). So with this reasoning playing 4 Choke and 4 Toxic Deluge in the main actually seems like a good plan to me. May even try that eventually, for now just changing the numbers by +/-1.
I'm thinking that the Hydra seems better than the Weaver. Toxic Deluge and the life gaining creatures all play similar roles to that of the Spike Weaver. Stop a hoard of creatures, or postpone dying to them. The Weaver seems like it would be valuable vs Elves and Sneak and Show but Toxic Deluge does a similar thing vs Elves (and to some extent SnT) but 1-2 turns quicker, and the Weaver doesn't protect vs Emrakul. I can only see myself boarding the Weaver if I'm also boarding the Hydra. Weaver gives you three turns (not counting on the Hydra interaction), Hydra wins in two. So my reasoning is to avoid Weaver if not playing Hydra, rather play Deluges and Baloth/Thrag/Courser/Ooze. While Hydra looks really good vs any deck with problems removing it (non-white decks I suppose, especially BUG variants), or as a 5 mana high pressure threat vs any control deck. I think I would have used the Weaver if it had answered S&T Emrakul, but it doesn't.
Regarding sideboarding, this is my current SB:
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Massacre
1 Giant Solifuge
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Kalonian Hydra
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Rolling Spoils
The last four/five I'm contemplating changing.
- Spoils are good with the Trini/Chalice/Choke package vs combo and control decks, and the sweeping ability can be good too. So it has a lot of relevance.
- With an Ooze and a Deathrite in the main I may settle for one Leyline in the SB. And once it's a one off it seems like an option to try to add 1 Enlightened Tutor and replace Leyline with a RiP.
- The Hydra is added offense but I'm not sure if it's needed.
- May add a Choke when I get it, sometimes it ends the game when it's played but often it doesn't. So I'm pretty happy with 3.
I'm wondering if Marsh Casualties could replace one of the Massacres. It can also sweep toughness two, it isn't prevented by Gaddock (relevant vs Elves), it's an instant and can be cast in response to Rishadan Port... I don't know.
I'm not liking Oblivion Ring because I don't like that someone can destroy my destruction. It may very well be worth it, but I prefer the Grip (uncounterable) and Qasali (GSZ-able). If dealing with creatures I'm preferring the sweepers, if dealing with planeswalkers I'm trying the Tusk/Solifuge, if dealing with artifacts I'm trying the Sage/Qasali/Grip/Rod. I would probably try a second Grip before an Oblivion Ring.
Ghost Quarters seem very interesting btw, would like to test with 2-3 CoW and 6-8 wastelands cutting back on Chokes I guess.
Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
RiP + E-Tutor didn't work as well as I expected it to work, that's why I switched to Leylines.
Your criticism about O-Ring kinda misses the main point of its inclusion - getting more answers for S&T. O-Ring just has the benefit of hitting alot of other stuff as well. It being destroyed sucks, but that has rarely come up for me so far.
A third MD Deluge is something I could see being worth running, but as always, slots are premium, and I still don't know how to feel about drawing multiples post-board.
The main problem I see with Marsh Casualties is being forced to grab :b::b: to cast it. Massacre has an alternate cast mode and Deluge costs only one :b:.
Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
Thanks for your comments!
Regarding my disliking for Oblivion Ring, I realize it is mostly a personal bias (regarding removable removal). It certainly is quite good vs S&T. I rarely play against that deck nowadays, so the KotR + Karakas + Gaddock + (the corner cases where the following are relevant) Sage + Titania + Deluge will do for now.
Yes, possible cheaper cost of Massacre probably makes it worthwile. It just can get frustrating when playing the creature based non-white decks, in which Massacre costs a lot more. But I guess the difference between BB and BB2 an be rather marginal in this deck. Will stick to Massacre for a while.
Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
I still wonder what recursive options are compatible with the deck since it's one of the few things the deck kinda lacks imho. Has anybody tested Tasigur yet?
Edit: To go a bit more into detail: I like redundancy, that's why certain key cards like KotR, Courser and Baloth are in twice in my list. It kinda sucks to lose certain 1-ofs and then be cut off from them.
Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
Went 2-1 at my local store. Beat Elves! and Storm, lost to Infect (spell pierce for Chalice t1 g1, Force of Will for Chalice t2 g2). I was able to wipe a glistener elf off the board with a drown in sorrow, but I didn't have an answer to his EOT crop roto into inkmoth > become immense the next turn. This matchup is heavily Chalice/Trini-centric as well as being on the play vs draw and having enough wastelands/rolling spoils to deal with inkmoth, which doesn't die to decay or to our many sorcery speed sweepers.
As far as recursive elements barook, how about Volrath's Stronghold? With crucible that gives us ways to recur lands and creatures, though I am not sure how good it will be since the decks that we get into attrition wars with are often deathrite shaman decks which overload us with abrupt decay targets.
Speaking of which, has anyone ever though about Snuff Out in this deck? Additional answers to goyf giving abrupt decay a little breathing room to be used on shamans and delvers.
I dunno, just a thought I had after losing to infect today and wishing I had free answers to a pumped inkmoth or glistener elf after tapping out to play a chalice.
Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ironclad8690
As far as recursive elements barook, how about Volrath's Stronghold? With crucible that gives us ways to recur lands and creatures, though I am not sure how good it will be since the decks that we get into attrition wars with are often deathrite shaman decks which overload us with abrupt decay targets.
There are 4 cards that I currently consider for recursion:
- Stronghold: Probably my least favorite - doesn't generate CA, eats up draw steps, can only grab creatures (and we don't run that many). On the plus side, it could be fetched with KotR.
- Sword of Light and Shadow: Another card that can only grab creatures. Another source of life gain, plus it offers relevant protections, aside from CA. Needs creatures to work, although that coud probably circumvented by fetching Dryad Arbor. Hard to rate.
- Eternal Witness: CA, let's you grab anything you want, GSZ-able. Suffers from a shitty body and is yet another one-shot effect, unless you add more elements like the Two Towers combo or Temur Sabertooth.
- Tasigur: This one is probably the hardest to rate since I have not data on him. Great fighting body, especially hard to get rid off when you're able to lay down Chalice @1 to disable their StPs. However, weak to Karakas (our own Karakas can be used for protection). How much it cannibalizes your own lands in the GY (which feed KotR, DRS, Titania, CoW if you run it) is yet to be seen, but we do have great acceleration, so casting it without Delve isn't out of the question. The usefulness of his recursion is debatable in this deck, since we aren't just pure gas like other decks utilizing him - we run alot of cards that are either just dead in certain match-ups or dead in multiples. He gets some bonus points for clearing shitty Library cards on top, though.
Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)
I've been looking at picking this up, but am worried about non-blue match-ups. Some contexts that I play are predictably mostly blue, but I'll still see a couple rounds of Nic Fit, Jund, Mud, etc. I assume that Nic Fit and other Chalice decks are generally bad matches.
What experiences have y'all had with this in newer builds? (I've read the primer and about half the thread).
Would NO in the board a reasonable way to go over-the-top against decks without counters? Or not worth the slots? (I've read the discussion on maindeck NO builds in pages 9-12ish).
Thanks
