Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
Currently brewing on a Grixis list that plays more down-to-the-ground tempo than the usual control lists. Reason being that 1-for-1 removal right now seems to get played a lot, so I have creatures that one the one side have to be answered and on the other side get 2-for-1 effects (outside of DRS who is just good).
16 creatures:
4 drs
4 pyromancer
4 strix
2 clique
2 tombstalker
24 spells:
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 probe
4 bolt
4 therapy
4 force of will
20 lands:
4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
4 scalding tarn
2 u-sea
2 badlands
1 volcanic
1 tropical
1 island
1 swamp
sideboard:
2 pithing needle
2 surgical
2 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
2 ancient grudge
2 diabolic edict
2 izzet staticaster
1 repeal (not sure, I just don't really need this sideboard slot, maybe a hydroblast or blood moon. Repeal is there for now against fast Marit Lage decks)
Notable with this list:
1. There's no snapcasters. I have tried them and found them to be too durdly, if I wanted to go full 20 turns control I'd play czech pile. I wanted my creatures to be must-answer-threats for aggro decks not expensive spells in disguise.
2. No K-command: It just is surprisingly bad without snapcasters. My plan g1 vs elrazi is clogging the ground with creatures and fly over them, I found ancient grudge way better postsideboard vs. eldrazi as well as D&T.
3. There's no Jaces. I play 4 wastelands and a rather aggressive deck. Sure Jace is a great topdeck and we have tons of ways to protect him, but when playing the deck I found that it's just too expensive to be coherent with the deck that wants to stay low to the ground similar to delver and wasteland to keep everyone on 2-3 lands as long as possible.
4. Only 4 removal spells. This is not a lot. On the other side Strix blocks a lot of creatures while DRS keeps other DRS in check. Card advantage ensures this deck stays ahead on cards so that even if I don't draw removal I can at least threaten to race them.
5. Wastelands and basics. This deck plays just enough basics to make Blood Moon, Path, Veteran Explorer and Ghost Quarter bad against you. You don't need more imo since your mana is rather tight.
6. Not a single non-fow counterspell preboard. I see this deck similar to BUG Hymn Delver as a tap-out deck. Even Clique taps out on their turn if you play it on their upkeep.
7. Deathrite Shaman. I find the upside vs. gy-decks to be too high to not play this card. Not only is this deck weak to P-Fire, a single tropical is enough to give reanimator, dredge and burn a serious headache while also being great against storm and lands. Since I'd propably have to play 18 (nonwasteland-) lands without these guys I chose to rather play 16 with them.
Why I play the deck: It plays a tempo-strategy similar to BUG (Hymn) Delver: It doesn't win by winning quickly, but by punching through an early advantage quickly similar to Hymn to Tourach. Other than Hymn Bug though it's good against combo g1 and doesn't lose to edict effects which have become quite popular.
Therapy is great with the bodies from Elemental Tokens, Strixes and the looks from Clique.
The real beater of this deck is Tombstalker: Non-STP decks can really only beat this card via Toxic Deluge (but we pressure their life total quite quickly) or Jace (pretty bad against a bunch of free creatures). STP-decks on the other hand nowadays plays stoneforge which is horrendous against the 4-therapy 2-clique decks with 2 grudges in the sb. You see, it's win-win.
So yeah, just wanted to bring this out there because every Grixis deck I see seems to think it has to start with 4 snapcasters 2 k-commands 2 jaces just because that's what Czech Pile plays.
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
Here's the Grixis list I'm working on:
// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Creature
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Vendilion Clique
// 20 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Daze
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
// 20 Land
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
// 3 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
// 5 Sorcery
2 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Painful Truths
// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Baleful Strix
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Hydroblast
Notes on the main 60: the creature configuration could be played around with a bit, but it's been fine in testing. I like the disruption mixture, so for now I wouldn't change the spells. The Badlands was previously a 3rd Volcanic Island; I'm not sure if it really matters. Kolaghan's Command is absurd against fair decks, and not too shabby elsewhere.
Sideboard cards to consider: a 2nd Blood Moon or other non-basic hate would be good if you expect to run into Lands. If you expect more DnT, consider running a Dread of Night or Kozilek's Return. I haven't missed Abrupt Decay so far. I tested Keranos as a pet card, and actually he's pretty busted against matchups where you end in Draw-Go topdeck mode.
I think a deck very similar to this will make its way into Tier 1 as the meta begins to settle down more.
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wcm8
Here's the Grixis list I'm working on:
// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Creature
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Vendilion Clique
// 20 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Daze
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
// 20 Land
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
// 3 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
// 5 Sorcery
2 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Painful Truths
// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Baleful Strix
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Hydroblast
Notes on the main 60: the creature configuration could be played around with a bit, but it's been fine in testing. I like the disruption mixture, so for now I wouldn't change the spells. The Badlands was previously a 3rd Volcanic Island; I'm not sure if it really matters. Kolaghan's Command is absurd against fair decks, and not too shabby elsewhere.
Sideboard cards to consider: a 2nd Blood Moon or other non-basic hate would be good if you expect to run into Lands. If you expect more DnT, consider running a Dread of Night or Kozilek's Return. I haven't missed Abrupt Decay so far. I tested Keranos as a pet card, and actually he's pretty busted against matchups where you end in Draw-Go topdeck mode.
I think a deck very similar to this will make its way into Tier 1 as the meta begins to settle down more.
I have a few comments this list, it does seem pretty sweet.
1) Daze does not seem to get along with your deck's curve. You have 10 cards that are 3 CMC+, this is a pretty hefty amount. I would personally cut the dazes and replace them with Inquisition of Kozilek, Spell Snare, or Counterspell.
2) I'm not a big fan of Tasigur in Legacy, since he randomly gets owned by Karakas. I'd just run a Gurmag in that slot.
3) You are a bit cold to opposing creatures that don't die to Bolt/Push, since you have no Strixes. I would try to squeeze a Toxic Deluge or maybe even a Diabolic Edict in.
4) Overall I would just think more about the number of each card you are running, you have a lot of 1-ofs which I think means your deck could be better tuned. Test, find what works and stick with it! :)
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
Anyone still playing/ working on this deck?
Legacy is now the remaining format where Probe+Therapy+Pyromancer can be played as 4of each.
Lejay's two recent lists are intriguing.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/670708#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/652816#paper
Is this deck still a top tier choice in current meta?
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jsang
It just placed 11th at the legacy challenge. I played a very similar version once and it did pretty well. I ran a one of EE plus an ancient ruins for value with it and stryx
3 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Notion Thief
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Punishing Fire
2 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pulse of Murasa
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
Sent from my SM-G935S using Tapatalk
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nimkee
It just placed 11th at the legacy challenge. I played a very similar version once and it did pretty well. I ran a one of EE plus an ancient ruins for value with it and stryx
3 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Notion Thief
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Punishing Fire
2 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pulse of Murasa
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
Thanks for the response. It seems the trend is moving away from 'Grixis Pyromancer', a more tempo approach to a more grind-ish style, focusing on value.
I believe it is a meta call, pyromancer is very good in dealing with combo (& midrange). Below is my current list.
Land (17)
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
4x Volcanic Island
Creature (8)
2x Gurmag Angler
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Young Pyromancer
Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
2x Fatal Push
1x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
Sorcery (16)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
Artifact (2)
2x Engineered Explosives
Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard (15)
2x Blood Moon
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Kolaghan's Command
2x Pyroblast
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
2x Arc Trail
1x Darkblast
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
The deck is called grixis thieves...it makes me sad when there are no actual thieves in the deck. Is grixis thieves and grixis pyromaster control considered the same thing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jsang
Thanks for the response. It seems the trend is moving away from 'Grixis Pyromancer', a more tempo approach to a more grind-ish style, focusing on value.
I believe it is a meta call, pyromancer is very good in dealing with combo (& midrange). Below is my current list.
Land (17)
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
4x Volcanic Island
Creature (8)
2x Gurmag Angler
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Young Pyromancer
Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
2x Fatal Push
1x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
Sorcery (16)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
Artifact (2)
2x Engineered Explosives
Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard (15)
2x Blood Moon
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Kolaghan's Command
2x Pyroblast
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
2x Arc Trail
1x Darkblast
Sent from my SM-G935S using Tapatalk
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nimkee
The deck is called grixis thieves...it makes me sad when there are no actual thieves in the deck. Is grixis thieves and grixis pyromaster control considered the same thing?
Sent from my SM-G935S using Tapatalk
Both of them are considered as Grixis control, even some lists in the primer does not play the singleton so whether having thieves won't substantially matter.
I observe most of lists were pyromancer version in a few pages earlier but more recent ones become more controllish; I wonder why so it change and want to test if pyromancer version, eg Lejay's lists, are still a viable choice in current field.
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jsang
The greed is strong in this one. Holy smokes.
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
Is there any possibility to rework this thread into a new one named Grixis Control and gather all discussions about those decklists here? The primer for this deck right now includes 4 Treasure Cruise, while newer version are performing really well at tournaments.
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
Long time I didn't play a real control deck. Pierre Dagen's list built by Lejay at the Gp Vegas feels pretty sweet. The deck felt strong during my last playtest session and was really interesting to play with many choices to make. I feel the deck is like old miracles, it is rewarding the more you play it!
The list fyi :
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Gurmag Angler
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Island
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Thoughtseize
2 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Baleful Strix
2 Blood Moon
2 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Painful Truths
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
LSV has streamed with an older version of Lejay's Grixis too. https://www.channelfireball.com/vide...y-bedlam-pyro/
The GP Grixis looks good, the only 1 thing I feel uncomfortable with is playing 4 Gurmag Angler. I recognise the grave fill-up very fast, but wouldn't 4 be too chunky? I start testing with playing a snapcaster mage in the slot of the 4th Angler.
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
I feel the same about the four Gurmags, when i first tried the list I felt really unconfortable about them. I tried yesterday for the first time the version with 4 Deathrites and a single Trop, went 4-1 in a League beating Maverick, BR Reanimator, Death&Taxes and Miracles, losing to 4 color Leovold with multiple atrocious mistakes by me (i'm still pretty new to the deck, used to play Miracles since 2015). List felt great, the Deathrites really adds a lot to the deck. And here comes my question, sorry if you already discussed this, as I said i'm still pretty new to the deck, i played 5 or 6 Leagues with the GP version and just this one with the Deathrites: why most of the lists i see play without them? It's not a rhetorical question, i'm really trying to understand the pro and cons of the two lists, the one with Deathrites and the one with a smoother manabase/4 Gurmags. :)
I'm still tuning my sideboard, i LOVED the Null Rods, they basically won me all my D&T MUs and stealed a couple games against Storm. I'm playing Staticaster AND 2 Deluges because i just don't want to lose to any creature-based deck (Elves, D&T), but playing all 3 is probably overkill. Moving forwand i'll probably cut one of the Deluges for... what? Maybe another Thoughtseize, but i'm still no really sure of what the decks really need in SB games, i probably need to play another 50/60 games to figure it out.
List:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Thoughtseize
3 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Null Rod
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
I've been testing and tweaking this baby recently, and am quite happy with the results:
4 DRS
4 Delver
3 Strix
2 TNN
2 Clique
1 Angler
1 Tombstalker
4 BS
4 FoW
4 Bolt
2 Pierce
1 Command
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Delta
4 Tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
SB
3 Firespout (!)
2 Edict
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
2 S.Extraction
1 EE
1 Needle
Let me know what you think!
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sheik80
And here comes my question, sorry if you already discussed this, as I said i'm still pretty new to the deck, i played 5 or 6 Leagues with the GP version and just this one with the Deathrites: why most of the lists i see play without them? It's not a rhetorical question, i'm really trying to understand the pro and cons of the two lists, the one with Deathrites and the one with a smoother manabase/4 Gurmags. :)
This might help answer your question - http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/e...ory/detail/136
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
This thread needs a serious update. The original concept was a cool fringe brew in an entirely different meta. Now we are seeing Grixis "Control" variants (often plays more like a midrange deck) place highly, and the archetype is solidly tier 2. The concept of "Thieves" no longer exists in the mainstream. Just putting this out there because it would be cool to do an update and get more traction on the discussion here. Dropping my list since I'm posting:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Baleful Strix
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
2 Kolaghan’s Command
4 Force of Will
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
SB
3 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Darkblast
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ancient Grudge
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrunkenphat7
This thread needs a serious update. The original concept was a cool fringe brew in an entirely different meta. Now we are seeing Grixis "Control" variants (often plays more like a midrange deck) place highly, and the archetype is solidly tier 2. The concept of "Thieves" no longer exists in the mainstream. Just putting this out there because it would be cool to do an update and get more traction on the discussion here. Dropping my list since I'm posting:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Baleful Strix
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
2 Kolaghan’s Command
4 Force of Will
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
SB
3 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Darkblast
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ancient Grudge
Totally agree on that! I'm shocked there is no right thread for a Grixis Control/Midrange deck, especially after Counterbalance is dead...
I'm planning on running the deck because it looks super sweet & is quite well positioned atm.
This is the list I'm planing to play:
4*Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4*Snapcaster Mage
2*True-Name Nemesis
4*Brainstorm
4*Ponder
4*Force of Will
2*Counterspell
2*Thoughtseize
3*Fatal Push
2*Lightning Bolt
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Kolaghans Command
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3*Underground Sea
2*Volcanic Island
1*Tropical Island
1*Badlands
4*Polluted Delta
4*Scalding Tarn
2*Bloodstained Mire
2*Island
1*Swamp
SIDEBOARD
3*Surgical Extraction
2*Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2*Vendilion Clique
2*Toxic Deluge
2*Blood Moon
1 Thoughtseize
1*Engineered Explosives
FoW Count 26
Its quite 4c Czech pile just with a more solid manabase and Blood Moon in the SB. It replaces 2 Leovold with 2 TNN and 2 AD with a 3rd Push + 1 Explosives...Not sure if I should cut 1 Strix 1 SCM for 2 Angler, would give the deck a bit more punch.
Nothing is set in stone and I have to work on the SB for sure.
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
If you need another thread, you can create a grixis midrange one.This one ist drs free, for the greater good.
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JosephK
If you need another thread, you can create a grixis midrange one.This one ist drs free, for the greater good.
It's not clear to me that a requirement of this thread is to be DRS-free because the OP is outdated, and the deck name of "Thieves" is based on a card in the deck that essentially no longer sees play. It would be great if we had a DRS-free Grixis Control thread and a separate DRS Grixis Midrange thread though.
Re: [Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrunkenphat7
It would be great if we had a DRS-free Grixis Control thread and a separate DRS Grixis Midrange thread though.
Absolutely ! Historically, Most lists discussed here were drs free. It is the thread that was used for grixis Control during treasure Cruise and Dig Through time eras.
I am aware that drs lists are more played now. I wouldn t ne against a Common thread if the primer is true to the history of the Deck, personnally.
