Esper Mentor

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Originally Posted by NegatorITA

listening a little to the podcast now,
edit:
The stoneforge for me wasn't impressive, I'm positive to try the mentor deck again after playing other decks for a while, would run his maindeck - 1 unheart + 1 jace.
for the board instead, not running the SFM package I'd stick with your board (which was good) and play it like this (unless in the manwhile you hanni haven't discovered more powerful cards, mind you, I stopped playing the deck after way too little 4 months ago, so:

2 zealous
2 explosives
1 disenchant
1 council
2 surgical
3 meddling mage
1 needle
2 flusterstorm *
1 flex slot:

Hydro? Containment? 3d surgical? back to basic? 2# needle? 2# disenchant? all of these looks appealing:
hydro looks solid: answer to moon/kolaghan/chandra, yet falls under chalice again, while disenchant is kinda narrow but powerful (bridge/chalice/choke/moon among a few)
also a singleton liliana may also be good for miracle? or more stuffs like invasive surgery (powerful vs show and tell, loam, miracle in general too)
Personally I'll try the second disenchant since in my small local are we have some amount of: moon deck, stompy deck and food chain deck, then miracle, grixis delver and other random stuffs.
What do you think Hanni? :)

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I've made a couple of tweaks to my board since the last time I posted, but they are only minor. For the most part, the board doesn't need to be an identical copy of mine, so long as you have a solid postboard plan for most of the major matchups.

I don't think you need the 2nd Disenchant, so long as you have at least 3 ways to deal with a resolved Chalice of the Void. With EE, and possibly Council's Judgment or Vindicate, you should be fine. But if your meta has alot of artifacts and/or enchantments, then sure, run a 2nd copy.

Hydroblast is a great sideboard card. It is applicable in a bunch of matchups. It has use against multiple combo decks, Moon Stompy, Grixis Delver, Czech Pile, Burn, etc.

If you're expecting a bunch of removal.dec, whether that be Miracles, Pile, Aggro Loam, or whatever... Gideon, Ally of Zendikar seems like a fine choice too. Just depends on what you expect to face.

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Originally Posted by maharis

Glad you guys liked the podcast. Phil's success has inspired me to practice and play Mentor for the GP in April so we'll be discussing our updates on the next couple episodes.

I rebuilt the deck after his run and have gone 4-1, 3-2, 4-1 in three leagues. Seems pretty good. Currently testing a couple things like Search for Azcanta and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad over Jace (Jace is great but there are so many pyroblasts... and I am not buying one online right now haha).

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personally in these kind of decks would never play less that two jace:
In the podcast you mentioned that unhearth could bring back things to take advantage, yet that's almost what jace do too, and personally in this list, which only real dangerous win con is indeed mentor, I feel like having TWO extra win con (or side win con) like Jace are a must, but that's how I view the deck.

Personally I'd even try out the main -2 push + 1 PtE + 1 Strix:
extra blue pitch for force, extra blocker/cantrip for early turns in which you may really need the strix, still helps vs fatty dudes, and your removal all deals with Marit lage or other annoying stuffs (angler)
Also, you get the easily fetch your three basic basically every single game: from the blue you cantrip, from the black you therapy, from both you strix, from your white one you fire off your removal.
The cons is that you may actually need to be able to cast removal off white if somehow you lose your basic/dual whatever reason make you miss the color.
Obviously, I was just thinking about that change the other day, to make the deck smoother on paper, but it may be totally wrong once you play it, yet wanted to share this thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I've made a couple of tweaks to my board since the last time I posted, but they are only minor. For the most part, the board doesn't need to be an identical copy of mine, so long as you have a solid postboard plan for most of the major matchups.

I don't think you need the 2nd Disenchant, so long as you have at least 3 ways to deal with a resolved Chalice of the Void. With EE, and possibly Council's Judgment or Vindicate, you should be fine. But if your meta has alot of artifacts and/or enchantments, then sure, run a 2nd copy.

Hydroblast is a great sideboard card. It is applicable in a bunch of matchups. It has use against multiple combo decks, Moon Stompy, Grixis Delver, Czech Pile, Burn, etc.

If you're expecting a bunch of removal.dec, whether that be Miracles, Pile, Aggro Loam, or whatever... Gideon, Ally of Zendikar seems like a fine choice too. Just depends on what you expect to face.

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the meta shifts way too quickly, but certain decks are always there:
on the rise we have moon stompy or big eldrazi
miracle is always there.
some pile/loam floats rise and hide
Food chain is a hidden sleeper who often comes out to play at the tournamet so, I'm confidant with these archetype being around to choose disenchant over hydro (if food chain wasn't there would play hydro for sure)
Gideon is indeed nice, and vindicate too since pesky lands with pesky tabernacle... how do you deal with that without vindicate? even if they should be able to find tabby faster than we can find vindicate... :/

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Originally Posted by maharis

Glad you guys liked the podcast. Phil's success has inspired me to practice and play Mentor for the GP in April so we'll be discussing our updates on the next couple episodes.

I rebuilt the deck after his run and have gone 4-1, 3-2, 4-1 in three leagues. Seems pretty good. Currently testing a couple things like Search for Azcanta and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad over Jace (Jace is great but there are so many pyroblasts... and I am not buying one online right now haha).

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I get that Pyroblast is everywhere, but you're already vulnerable to it. It's like trying to run basics when you're playing a 4 color deck with greedy color requirements... you're still soft to Wasteland.

Point is, Jace is important for refueling when your low on resources. If you're going to cut Jace, it should be for Painful Truths instead of Sorin, I think. Cost on MTGO aside, I still think Jace is where you want to be with this deck.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I get that Pyroblast is everywhere, but you're already vulnerable to it. It's like trying to run basics when you're playing a 4 color deck with greedy color requirements... you're still soft to Wasteland.

Point is, Jace is important for refueling when your low on resources. If you're going to cut Jace, it should be for Painful Truths instead of Sorin, I think. Cost on MTGO aside, I still think Jace is where you want to be with this deck.

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I see Search as filling the refueling aspect of Jace (and it comes down way earlier and starts delivering value, especially with Therapy/Souls/Unearth/Snapcaster) without being such a pyroblast blowout. I actually don't think the deck is that soft to Pyroblast, UNLESS they hit a Jace, which is why I like to avoid it... Sorin's synergy with Souls and Mentor is also a good way to close a game out quickly. He also is excellent against Miracles which is increasingly popular. I think in the Tundra/Jace mirror we would be unfavored vs. Miracles ... our Jaces wouldn't be as good.

I guess I just don't think our deck is as good a Jace deck as the other decks, which gives us more options in that slot... Search has been excellent so far to be honest, including in a mirror I played.

Though I do have a couple paper Jaces and plan to play the deck tonight, so I will slot him in and see how I feel about it...

I really liked Chart a Course but I think Search is just better. 40 cents to draw two cards immediately vs 40 bucks to pseudo-scry a turn later hurt my soul though haha.

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Originally Posted by maharis

I see Search as filling the refueling aspect of Jace (and it comes down way earlier and starts delivering value, especially with Therapy/Souls/Unearth/Snapcaster) without being such a pyroblast blowout. I actually don't think the deck is that soft to Pyroblast, UNLESS they hit a Jace, which is why I like to avoid it... Sorin's synergy with Souls and Mentor is also a good way to close a game out quickly. He also is excellent against Miracles which is increasingly popular. I think in the Tundra/Jace mirror we would be unfavored vs. Miracles ... our Jaces wouldn't be as good.

I guess I just don't think our deck is as good a Jace deck as the other decks, which gives us more options in that slot... Search has been excellent so far to be honest, including in a mirror I played.

Though I do have a couple paper Jaces and plan to play the deck tonight, so I will slot him in and see how I feel about it...

I really liked Chart a Course but I think Search is just better. 40 cents to draw two cards immediately vs 40 bucks to pseudo-scry a turn later hurt my soul though haha.

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Well, I agree that my list with SFM isn't soft to Pyroblast, as the only worthwhile targets are JTMS and FoW, and I cut JTMS vs non-BUG Delver and some amount of FoW against Czech Pile... but if you're running SCM, Strix, and Search for Azcanta, then Pyroblast is still doing work against you.

I'm not saying Sorin or even Gideon couldn't be good in the deck, I was moreso getting at Sorin not being a replacement for Jace. I think I'd rather run Bitterblossom over Sorin in the maindeck, if I was looking for a token maker.

I've never really been disappointed with Jace in this deck, but I've not yet tried Azcanta. That being said, if blue count wasn't a factor (which it is in my SFM build), I'm pretty sure I'd rather be on Painful Truths over Jace or Azcanta. I'd even consider Sylvan Library over Azcanta, tbh. Azcanta is slow... the filter doesn't do as much for us as it does for a deck like Miracles, and we have way too many other mana hungry plays to be able to take advantage of the flip land until deep into the lategame. And we really aren't trying to go deep into the lategame anyway... Mentor should close the game out way before then. Azcanta is great in Miracles, but I just don't see it doing enough in here.

I'd sooner play Predict before I'd play Chart a Course in this deck.

Counterbalance seems like it could be a spicy sideboard card, though.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Well, I agree that my list with SFM isn't soft to Pyroblast, as the only worthwhile targets are JTMS and FoW, and I cut JTMS vs non-BUG Delver and some amount of FoW against Czech Pile... but if you're running SCM, Strix, and Search for Azcanta, then Pyroblast is still doing work against you.

I'm not saying Sorin or even Gideon couldn't be good in the deck, I was moreso getting at Sorin not being a replacement for Jace. I think I'd rather run Bitterblossom over Sorin in the maindeck, if I was looking for a token maker.

I've never really been disappointed with Jace in this deck, but I've not yet tried Azcanta. That being said, if blue count wasn't a factor (which it is in my SFM build), I'm pretty sure I'd rather be on Painful Truths over Jace or Azcanta. I'd even consider Sylvan Library over Azcanta, tbh. Azcanta is slow... the filter doesn't do as much for us as it does for a deck like Miracles, and we have way too many other mana hungry plays to be able to take advantage of the flip land until deep into the lategame. And we really aren't trying to go deep into the lategame anyway... Mentor should close the game out way before then. Azcanta is great in Miracles, but I just don't see it doing enough in here.

I'd sooner play Predict before I'd play Chart a Course in this deck.

Counterbalance seems like it could be a spicy sideboard card, though.

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Interesting line of thoughts, and Indeed sylvan library came to mind as a singletone spicy sideslot who nobody can see coming from an esper deck :cool:

I've definitely considered Sylvan. Better to go full greed or still have basics as blood moon insurance?

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Originally Posted by maharis

I've definitely considered Sylvan. Better to go full greed or still have basics as blood moon insurance?

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If I were to run Sylvan, it would be a sideboard card vs decks like Czech Pile and Miracles where I'm not afraid of Wasteland. I'm a firm believer in the basics in this deck. The ability to function purely on basics is a big reason why my Delver matchups are as good as they are. Being resilient to Blood Moon and being able to run Back to Basics in the board is nice too.

However, I'd still prefer Painful Truths over Sylvan Library. A 3 mana draw 3 is more than sufficient in the grindy matchups.

Played a little with the new list:
To me it feels even smoother when it works, and worse when not:
Like I still believe the idea of having a two drop who put pressure on the opponent, so it can:
A close the game
B free the road for mentor
Is crucial, and snapping/strix don't exactly do that
Feels like the card we need isn't there yet

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Originally Posted by NegatorITA

Played a little with the new list:
To me it feels even smoother when it works, and worse when not:
Like I still believe the idea of having a two drop who put pressure on the opponent, so it can:
A close the game
B free the road for mentor
Is crucial, and snapping/strix don't exactly do that
Feels like the card we need isn't there yet

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I dunno, I think SFM does that role just fine. I know people have been hesitant to play equipment lately because of K Command, but I've done just fine against Czech Pile... feels like a 50/50 matchup to me.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I dunno, I think SFM does that role just fine. I know people have been hesitant to play equipment lately because of K Command, but I've done just fine against Czech Pile... feels like a 50/50 matchup to me.

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It doesn't feel smooth, but it does work
Will keep trying both versions and check how the game runs.

@Hanni , do you think you'll ever stream your deathblade mentor deck? I'd love to watch.

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Originally Posted by kramer733

@Hanni , do you think you'll ever stream your deathblade mentor deck? I'd love to watch.

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I don’t even own a working computer, so most likely not.

Hello gents, I've been tinkering with this deck since Phil breathed life back into the archetype. Theres concepts i was attempting to merge as i feel they complement each other well. i figured id through it out there and see what you guys think. My take falls more to the aggressive side taking the lines from the recent Esper delver popularized by the crew from down under. This includes Thoughtscour into angler which synergies's well with the current mentor lists need to churn through your deck keeping a consistent supply of spells. The pros to thoughtscour include
- it fills the graveyard with fader for Deathrite, delve, snap caster, unearth ...
- puts therapies in the yard. Which is technical card advantage with mentor in play.
-It enables a turn 2 angler
- it can disrupt opponents "deck ordering" shenanigans. Counterbalance, miracles, when an opponent brainstorms cars to the top of the library after you cast cabal therapy.
-Its an instant speed cantrip which lets you end step mentor triggers leaving your mana up for disruption if its needed during there turn.
- like all cantrips it lets you churn though spells while staying at card parody. Great for mentor and Angler.

Without further ado this is the list i'm currently developing.

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Gurmag angler
1 tomb stalker
1 Snapcaster
1 True-Name Nemesis

Spells (29)

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Thoughtscour
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm (Running main as fluster is better at protecting our threats then spell pierce, it also helps us in heavy combo match ups which we can be a little weak to not using daze or "hard hand disruption")
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 unearth (testing, not sure how effect it is with only 10 targets)
2 fatal push

Sideboard (15)
1 Umezawa’s Jitte ( control and midrange. on the fence with this guy with k commands steadily increasing in numbers)
1 Containment Priest (reanimator, sneak and show - unearth comes out) (I really have this in there because its non token lol)
1 Sanctum Prelate (lands, storm)
1 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize (sometimes its easier to snip the cards you cant deal with then try and face them, also more looks at there hand)(this could move to the MD)
3 Disenchant (chalice, RIP, Leyline of the void need to be destroyed asap)
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Surgical Extraction ( with so many looks at your opponents hand and it being a free spell best to have more then enough you can even thought scour a opponent in a combo matchup to get there key pieces.)
1 Pithing Needle
1 hydroblast (we don't mind blood moon but its still a paddlin)

This is still being developed so any and all suggestions and opinions are welcome! Again this deck currently plays similar to grixis pyromancer builds but gets all the advantages of the best disruption and best creatures the format has to offer ( minus grisslbrand and emrukul)

Cheers!

Just to add to my previous post. There are some additions that have a potential slot in this list.
This deck leaves the 2 cmc slot position open in the curve so we are flexible after we identify our opponent game 1. We are often leaving mana open for disruption, churning through spells or if Deathrite is online and we are taking the role of the aggressor we are jamming a three drop. The suggestions i have fill the 2cmc slot to curve a little better and play stronger spells as a whole. A lot of this is theoretical and untested.

Bitter Blossom(sideboard)- Would obviously come in vs control & midrange strategies. Its just constant pressure that they cant deal with and plays well with jitte and zealous persecution that also come in in those matchup's. Good at stalling against Turbo Depths as well.

Search for Azcanta- Fills our graveyard a filters to what half of the deck (counter magic or spot removal) we need in each matchup. Then in the late game gives us the card advantage we are lacking with no Jace (who is a disaster in our curve and spends most of his time in exile from force of will)(He is amazing in this deck if he sticks) .keep the spells rolling.

Collective Brutality- Pulls us ahead if we are in a Deathrite war and helps blend the two halves of our deck. Also for the umpteenth time fills our yard.

Baleful Strix- We all know why Strix is great. the reasons i excluded it from my list include.
1) Everyone is hedging against it and i don't want to loose our card advantage by playing into it that.
2) It is a very slow and we could loose a turn when we are trying to aggressively kill our opponent.
3) Tarmagoyf is starting to rear it's ugly face again which we don't mind once we get ahead established but if it lands early and we are thrown off balance by disruption we can be temped out. So the design of the deck keeps spell types at a minimum so our anglers on average will be faster and bigger then goyf.

Now for 2 possible additions that are not 2 cmc....

Lilliana, the last hope(sideboard)- Clears the way for our threats specifically.

Path to exile- When its good its completely broken. This would mostly replace push in our 6 spot removal slots. Which also lets confidently fetch a plains in matchups that heavily rely on creature removal but have land destruction. lands, eldrazi, delver ...

Thanks for listening. I'm basically thinking out loud here so counter points are wanted! If anyone has play experience with any of this please let us know your opinion!

Went 3-1 last night, quick report from drive thru line:

W Aluren 2-0, just faster and has enough disruption
W D&T 2-1, I like this MU but RIP g2 slowed me down a lot
W big eldrazi 2-0, variance killed him as he had 1 land g1 and 10 mana sources g2 but I was able to neutralize his threats
L mono red sneak 0-2, I got T1 sneak-emrakul G1 and T1 seething song->wurmcoil g2, guess always mull to force

List:

4 DRS
3 Mentor
2 SCM
1 Tasigur
1 Strix

4 Force
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Probe
4 Therapy
4 STP
2 Lingering Souls
2 Search for Az
1 Fatal Push
1 JTMS
1 Unearth

4 delta/strand
2 sea/tundra
3 basics
1 scrubland/trop/flats

2 surgical
2 fluster
2 ZP
2 collective brutality
1 disenchant
1 vindicate
1 Sorin LOI
1 needle
1 nihil spellbomb
1 canonist
1 containment priest


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Originally Posted by maharis

Went 3-1 last night, quick report from drive thru line:

W Aluren 2-0, just faster and has enough disruption
W D&T 2-1, I like this MU but RIP g2 slowed me down a lot
W big eldrazi 2-0, variance killed him as he had 1 land g1 and 10 mana sources g2 but I was able to neutralize his threats
L mono red sneak 0-2, I got T1 sneak-emrakul G1 and T1 seething song->wurmcoil g2, guess always mull to force

List:

4 DRS
3 Mentor
2 SCM
1 Tasigur
1 Strix

4 Force
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Probe
4 Therapy
4 STP
2 Lingering Souls
2 Search for Az
1 Fatal Push
1 JTMS
1 Unearth

4 delta/strand
2 sea/tundra
3 basics
1 scrubland/trop/flats

2 surgical
2 fluster
2 ZP
2 collective brutality
1 disenchant
1 vindicate
1 Sorin LOI
1 needle
1 nihil spellbomb
1 canonist
1 containment priest


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Great result! wondering if you had any success casting search for azcanta in the main and collective brutality from the side. If so how did they feel? Clunky,Slow,great...

Search for Azcanta is great. Having a hand full of gas with Mentor is key to closing games fast.

Collective Brutality is pretty medium. I was playing it because I got ranched by burn at one point but I ended up cutting it and getting spell pierces in. Pierce isn’t great but combo decks can be hard so it’s nice to have.

Played 2 leagues last night with tweaks and went 5-5. Turbo Depths was three of the losses though, that is a really tough matchup. STP is great but they can beat it with steppe and discard unlike Lands.


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Originally Posted by maharis

Search for Azcanta is great. Having a hand full of gas with Mentor is key to closing games fast.

Collective Brutality is pretty medium. I was playing it because I got ranched by burn at one point but I ended up cutting it and getting spell pierces in. Pierce isn’t great but combo decks can be hard so it’s nice to have.

Played 2 leagues last night with tweaks and went 5-5. Turbo Depths was three of the losses though, that is a really tough matchup. STP is great but they can beat it with steppe and discard unlike Lands.


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Quick question. If you hit a lingering souls off search are you putting it in the yard and drawing a fresh card?
If your still on lingering souls...

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Originally Posted by Blink

Quick question. If you hit a lingering souls off search are you putting it in the yard and drawing a fresh card?
If your still on lingering souls...

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Oh yeah. That’s the dream!

Actually, the dream is turn 2 search, untap turn 3, bin therapy, play land, play mentor, play probe, flashback therapy.


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