The current state of Magic

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Originally Posted by Kanti

hey sorry my timeline was all messed up. 10 years ago it is, gotta go back to like Goyf days.

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Goyf days brought us Goyf, Venser, Golgari Grave-Troll, Dark Confidant. In Standard itself, Wall of Roots, Riftwing Cloudskate, Loxodon Hierarch, Yosei etc. were pretty great. Lorwyn has the first modern creatures, and I'd say those Standard bannings... do they hold a candle to Reveillark, Mulldrifter, Vendilion Clique, Mistbind Clique, Demigod of Revenge, Cloudthresher, Heritage Druid, Kitchen Finks, Figure of Destiny? Hardly. The answers just suck, unlike back then. Port Rune Snag, Doom Blade, Incinerate, Skred, O-Ring, Wispmare, Ingot Chewer, Wrath, Damnation, Venser, an assortment of other random things and see how long the problems stay as problems.

I still stand by Legacy during the Werebear, Solidarity, Landstill and Goblins days being the best era of Legacy. Suicide Black splash Red was a viable deck!! You could Tog back then too! Angel Stax was less pressured and Angel Stompy was the Temporary Solution analog of the format. You could even make a case that some Shadowmage Infiltrator jank was also quite a viable deck back then too.

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Originally Posted by gh0st_b1rd

I still stand by Legacy during the Werebear, Solidarity, Landstill and Goblins days being the best era of Legacy. Suicide Black splash Red was a viable deck!! You could Tog back then too! Angel Stax was less pressured and Angel Stompy was the Temporary Solution analog of the format. You could even make a case that some Shadowmage Infiltrator jank was also quite a viable deck back then too.

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I'm about to bring back Tog. Bout to be lit

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Originally Posted by gh0st_b1rd

I still stand by Legacy during the Werebear, Solidarity, Landstill and Goblins days being the best era of Legacy. Suicide Black splash Red was a viable deck!! You could Tog back then too! Angel Stax was less pressured and Angel Stompy was the Temporary Solution analog of the format. You could even make a case that some Shadowmage Infiltrator jank was also quite a viable deck back then too.

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I wonder if the viability of fringe decks has been impacted more by power creep or increased format visibility/player base? It certainly felt like the format started to get more streamlined as the SCG opens got more regular and gained a bigger following. I was also new to the format at that time, so maybe that's just my perception as I learned more about the format.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

I wonder if the viability of fringe decks has been impacted more by power creep or increased format visibility/player base? It certainly felt like the format started to get more streamlined as the SCG opens got more regular and gained a bigger following. I was also new to the format at that time, so maybe that's just my perception as I learned more about the format.

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I think a lot of people underestimate the impact Tarmogoyf had on the format, that creature single handedly made every tier 2 creature deck unplayable at the time and between it and Miracles power creeping on creatures and removal defined the metagame for what seems like forever now. I mean just look at how good creatures had to be in order to be considered over Tarmogoyf, True Name Nemesis, Stoneforge Mystic, Young Pyromancer, the Delve creatures etc. are all pretty OP compared to Werebear.

Tarmogoyf and CounterTop in tandem actually made me take a break from the format. I got really tired of playing mirror matches in every tournament I attended until SoA and Conflux came out. Even then the burnout had worn down on me by that point.

I would have preferred if Wizards had taken what Eli Kassis suggested to do and just ban multiple pillars at once. If they banned Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop and Bazaar of Beghdad at the same time back then nothing should stop them from doing that again now-ish.

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Originally Posted by gh0st_b1rd

I still stand by Legacy during the Werebear, Solidarity, Landstill and Goblins days being the best era of Legacy. Suicide Black splash Red was a viable deck!! You could Tog back then too! Angel Stax was less pressured and Angel Stompy was the Temporary Solution analog of the format. You could even make a case that some Shadowmage Infiltrator jank was also quite a viable deck back then too.

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Man, yeah. Turn 1 Mother of Runes, turn 2 Ancient Tomb into facedown creature was like woahmg. You could even maindeck Silver Knight against Goblins, whee

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I think a lot of people underestimate the impact Tarmogoyf had on the format, that creature single handedly made every tier 2 creature deck unplayable at the time [...]

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Can't agree more. Tarmogoyf caused such a mess. Awful awful card. Merfolk splashed G to play Tarmogoyf, that's how busted that card was in the format back then.
Tons of cards became unplayable at once. Tried to stick to Quirion Dryad in RG Sligh, because I loved that card...

Everyone who doesn't know by now how much Tarmogoyf changed and shaped Legacy should look up some old decklists.

Honestly a LOT of the bad parts of the format could be sort of answered by either:

a really good fetchland hoser
a really good grave hate card

DRS, Goyfs, Brainstorm, Delve spells, 4c lists with 4 wastelands etc are all a function on how bonkers fetches are. It's not easy to design such a card though. Harsh mentor is deece but still bad.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Honestly a LOT of the bad parts of the format could be sort of answered by either:

a really good fetchland hoser
a really good grave hate card

DRS, Goyfs, Brainstorm, Delve spells, 4c lists with 4 wastelands etc are all a function on how bonkers fetches are. It's not easy to design such a card though. Harsh mentor is deece but still bad.

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I think both options already exist, near-as-good-as-it-gets-ish. Leonin Arbiter hoses fetchlands much better than merely triggering a Shock to your op's face whenever they fetch. Rest in Peace is the ultimate answer to graveyard-based strategies, the only "problem" with it is that it can't win you the game on its own (and it might be "too slow" against hyper-fast decks like RB Reanimator, but those are coinflips anyway).

I honestly don't see how you'd want to improve on these two cards, without hating both elements (library search/tutoring, even if "only" for lands, and using the graveyard as a resource) out of the metagame pretty much completely.

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Originally Posted by colo

I think both options already exist, near-as-good-as-it-gets-ish. Leonin Arbiter hoses fetchlands much better than merely triggering a Shock to your op's face whenever they fetch. Rest in Peace is the ultimate answer to graveyard-based strategies, the only "problem" with it is that it can't win you the game on its own (and it might be "too slow" against hyper-fast decks like RB Reanimator, but those are coinflips anyway).

I honestly don't see how you'd want to improve on these two cards, without hating both elements (library search/tutoring, even if "only" for lands, and using the graveyard as a resource) out of the metagame pretty much completely.

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Need to be either incidental/more general compared to RiP and arbiter to be not a dead card so often, and possibly less susceptible to removal.

Quoting myself:

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Tsabo's Moon 2
Artifact
Activated abilities of lands that aren't mana abilities can't be played.

An alternate blood moon that hit fetches the hardest, but also is incredibly good vs wastelands/ports in sol decks as it allow you to still mantain your greater mana generation while hosing your opponent mana development and mana denial strategies. Bonus random hoser of karakas and dark depths.

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This would basically be null rod for legacy. Easily standard printable too and justifiable there as a hate card for manlands or smth.

Reminds me of my favourite time from the Goyf era:

"We got Goyf Threshold, Deadgoyf Ale, Survival of the Goyfest and Goyfalid Breakfast.It probably won't end until we have decks like Goyf Stax, Goyfbelcher, Goyfchantress, Vial Goyflins, Goyfstill, Goyf from the Loam, Faergoyf Stompy, Goyf-Pox, Goyf Confinement, 8-Land Goyfstompy, and the Dave Gearhart classic, Goyfidarity. And Ichgoyfrid, Red Deadgoyf, GES, 42landand4goyf.dec, Goyf Game and Ill-Gotten-Goyf-y Pop"

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Reminds me of my favourite time from the Goyf era:

"We got Goyf Threshold, Deadgoyf Ale, Survival of the Goyfest and Goyfalid Breakfast.It probably won't end until we have decks like Goyf Stax, Goyfbelcher, Goyfchantress, Vial Goyflins, Goyfstill, Goyf from the Loam, Faergoyf Stompy, Goyf-Pox, Goyf Confinement, 8-Land Goyfstompy, and the Dave Gearhart classic, Goyfidarity. And Ichgoyfrid, Red Deadgoyf, GES, 42landand4goyf.dec, Goyf Game and Ill-Gotten-Goyf-y Pop"

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"I got 99 problems and a Goyf ain't one."

People really did stuff Goyf everywhere back then. It was hilarious to watch (though I mostly lurked on the forums back then). Though Goyf wasn't a huge player in TS-Lor Standard, people did play "full fat Merfolk" with Goyfs and Chameleon Colossi.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Honestly a LOT of the bad parts of the format could be sort of answered by either:

a really good fetchland hoser
a really good grave hate card

DRS, Goyfs, Brainstorm, Delve spells, 4c lists with 4 wastelands etc are all a function on how bonkers fetches are. It's not easy to design such a card though. Harsh mentor is deece but still bad.

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I agree about fetches, but good grave hate?! Personally I think part of the reason all the goodstuff cantrip decks are so prolific is because of all the excellent, cheap, splashable grave hate they've printed over the last ~5 years. Surgical and RiP are insanely good sideboard cards, and now everyone is running 4x DRS in their main. Even if they weren't tier 1 decks, things like Dredge and Aggro Loam used to keep control and tempo in check because they could use their graveyard as a massive source of card advantage. Not that those decks are completely dead now, but they're so much easier to hate out that they can't really put much pressure on the format as a whole anymore.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Honestly a LOT of the bad parts of the format could be sort of answered by either:

a really good fetchland hoser
a really good grave hate card

DRS, Goyfs, Brainstorm, Delve spells, 4c lists with 4 wastelands etc are all a function on how bonkers fetches are. It's not easy to design such a card though. Harsh mentor is deece but still bad.

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Lol what.
How are:
* Aven Mindcensor
* Root Maze
* Thalia, Heretic Cathar
* Harsh Mentor
* Suppression Field
* Stifle and it's 2-mana cantrip counterparts
* etc?

not perfect examples of fetch hate? Most of those are even 1-sided, allowing you to run your own fetches. The ones that aren't (Suppression and Root Maze) aren't played specifically because they make building your own deck so #*&%ing difficult. I'd know, as i've built decks around both many times; it's very difficult to get working not just be running a pile.

And gravehate?
* Cage -> hates on Elves, GSZ, and more, all in colorless {1}
* Nihil Spellbomb -> Tormods with a cantrip
* Tormods -> 0 mana to do whatever
* Relic of Prog -> Cantrips and can eat the grave without busting itself
* RiP -> There are decks that main this as a combo piece because it hoses so much of the format
* Bojuka Bog -> no cards, no CMC, fetchable with Knight, that 1 CMC white dude, and Crop Rotation.
* Deathrite Shaman -> both susceptible to and helpful as gravehate. I actually use DRS partly to block opposing DRS activations.
* Scavenging Ooze -> Outsizes many baddies in the format while eating whatever you want.
* Surgical Extraction -> Colorless echoing-grave thoughtseize for 0 mana.
* Faerie Macabre -> colorless pick-two for 0 mana
* Ground Seal -> Cantripping Deathrite/Loam/other blocker
* Dryad Militant -> All instants/sorceries exiled
* Loaming Shaman -> shuffle as much of someone's graveyard into their deck as you want
* that 2/2 black zombie who's a crappy scavenging ooze
* that 2/1 black zombie who makes all cards in the grave lose all abilities
* do I need to continue!?

They don't need better gravehate at this point and it's hard to improve on most of the above. Whatever flavor of hate you want, most of it very splashable or colorless and potentially 0-mana, and thats' without getting into the mediocre answers, like Gaea's Blessing (cantrip, shuffle three, protection from milling), Misinformation (put any three on top of a library), etc.. can do. There's more..


Lastly, let's not go dictating what parts of the format are good/bad. I think the format, as I've seen it the last couple weeks, is pretty healthy.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

Lol what.
How are:
* Aven Mindcensor
* Root Maze
* Thalia, Heretic Cathar
* Harsh Mentor
* Suppression Field
* Stifle and it's 2-mana cantrip counterparts
* etc?

not perfect examples of fetch hate?

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All of those are ok, but don't really hose fetchlands. They just provide an obstacle (and one for yourself in some cases). Something like Tsabo's Web that prevents activation instead of restricting untapping would actually hose them.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Honestly a LOT of the bad parts of the format could be sort of answered by either:

a really good fetchland hoser
a really good grave hate card

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I am quite sure that DRS actually IS the best and most versatile graveyard hate in the format. Fetchlands can still be shut off with Pithing Needle. Its quite funny to cast Gitaxian Probe, see opponents Lands and then drop Needle

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Originally Posted by iatee

I agree, I don't think Wasteland+Shocks would make a fun dynamic, but Wizards is not limited to the cards currently printed. They can print land-hate stronger than Ghost Quarter but weaker than Wasteland and duals stronger than Shocks but weaker than ABU. Similarly, FoW is also not necessarily the only way you can print playable t0 interaction, Brainstorm+fetches not the only way to design a tool that gives decks card selection / profitable ways to trade off dead cards in hand.

If they want this format they can have it. Modern could conceivably be *better* than legacy. I just don't think they really care - if anything, it's bad for business if formats that don't require constantly spending money are way more fun than formats that do. That sounds kinda conspiratorial and I don't think they purposely make modern bad, but they also really don't spend that much energy finding ways to make it better.

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I realize I'm a little late to the party, but I wanted to point out that this is gold.

I'm a long time legacy-only player (despite the age of my account), and all I really want is to play the high-complexity format where a win feels rewarding, and mana flood/screw is as much of a non-issue as possible. Pilot skill (and matchups, of course) are the golden standard rather than hitting the right lands and enough of them in a format with little deck manipulation. Does it feel bad when you're on Stoneblade and your opponent storms out turn 2? Yeah, of course. But that being said, doesn't it also feel good when you churn out a EoT turn 3 Batterskull and just take the game over from there?

I'm so disappointed with the top banning - not because Miracles was my pet deck, but because it was the last good draw-go deck that gave back higher rewards the better and more knowledgeable a pilot you were.

In fact, I made this account just because the top banning has gotten under my skin in regards to WOTC's decisions for game direction. They do the absolute bare minimum of support for Legacy, then jump in and destroy several decks with a single banning.

When you said that modern *could* be better than Legacy, I 100% agree. You can have the high power and high deck diversity of Legacy without the few cards that really serve to make the format miserable. Most of my MTG friends want to play Legacy, and find it a really interesting format, but the RL prevents them from playing.

They have so much potential for Modern, or even an "in-between" format between Legacy and Modern where you can serve this incredible community of Eternal format players instead of giving them the middle finger every few months.

There's my first post in rant form.

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Originally Posted by Jander78

All of those are ok, but don't really hose fetchlands. They just provide an obstacle (and one for yourself in some cases). Something like Tsabo's Web that prevents activation instead of restricting untapping.

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To be fair, Pithing Needle does that. I think Leonin Arbiter and Suppression Field are pretty difficult to get around. If you have a fetch-base and you need mana to get your mana.. good chance you're not getting it.

We are talking the most efficient, and potentially cantripping, land destruction in the game. That 2 mana cantrip U/B U/B that blocks library searches, pitches to force, and always gives you a card.. if things like that aren't good enough..

I find it hard to believe that hosing your mana base and requiring you to pay mana to unhose it isn't good enough. That a 1-mana enchantment that slows your opponent by a full turn or two turns of mana production is just an obstacle. If you really want to do what you're talking about; Root Maze + Tsabo's Web + Chrome Mox will do that by T2 and you'll have a gay ol' time.