[Deck] Pox

It's my opinion that ritual was a "necessary evil" in the days before such excellent cards as Crucible of Worlds and Smallpox. To make up for a lack in threat density in those days we simply rushed out our disruption a bit faster, to give the illusion of high threat density in the first 3 turns. That worked in those days, the days before lackey, before werebear, before a lot of great cards were printed. That's my take on the matter. Continue running ritual if you wish, you certainly won't have a bad deck but I don't think your decklist will be optimal.

Verdict definitely is good, the lifegain can help and it brings in a critical mass of discard. Although, whether the additional discard is what the deck needs is arguable since a balance between preemptive control (LD + discard) and board control (pox, smallpox, keg) is vital. It's also choice discard, which makes some already bad matchups worse (madness and LftL primarily).

Yeah, getting a totem to average 3 damage per turn like idol is a challenge on its own, but getting totem to block like idol just isn't happening.

Disk is a great MBC card, but pox isn't MBC. If you wanna get to 4 mana you probably shouldn't play pox. If you're lucky you get 4 mana in the crucible builds, but in those disk wipes away your namesake crucible. I don't think disk is a good option.

Splashing white can solve the artifact/enchantment problem, but keeping white mana around through poxing and opposing wastelands can prove a daunting task. A white splash is only remotely feasible in a crucible build, which can recur its white sources. So, if the crucipox people wanna try white they can. I still think its a bad idea because verdict isn't absolutely necessary and verdict is a bit slow. The slot of STP is filled by things like innocent blood and funeral charm.

Off to dinner, have fun pox-a-pox-a-poxing!

I don't know, Disk seems like it might be better than Keg mainly because it can kill enchantments, beefy guys and you don't have to wait so long to take out threats. A topdecked Keg is usually not fast enough to let you survive a big beater, but a topdecked Disk usually is.

Yeah, 4 mana is sometimes not easy though, but it's not too hard since you're running totem and crucible, the worst thing about disk IMO is that it kills your own crucible and totem (you can bounce top back to save that though).

Once I get a chance to test Keg next week, I'll test Disk in it's place.

Meanwhile, I would LOVE to hear from other people who tried either Keg or Disk.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

Meanwhile, I would LOVE to hear from other people who tried either Keg or Disk.

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I didn't test disk but it is not a great idea at all. Pox is a tempo deck, and disk is a control card. Why destroy your own permanents? When you crack the disk, you are destroying your threats (totem and/or idol). It is better to get rid of opponent's threats and keep yours.

Keg does that.
I actually tested keg. It is great for getting rid of needle, vial, mongoose,... and is as fast as disk for 1cc spells. And in most cases you crack the keg at 1. Sometimes at 2. Very rarely at 3.
So it can be slow for higher cc spells, but in a tempo build (the only one who is really effective IMHO) Keg is far better.

Here is my decklist:

MD : 11 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Pit

3 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
4 Dark ritual
3 Nether Spirit
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sensei’s divining top
2 Phyrexian Totem
4 Chimeric Idol
2 Powder Keg



SB : 3 Engineered Plague
4 Zuran Orb
4 Leyline of the void
4 Tainted Aether


You will note the lack of Mishra's Factory. First I was a great defender of factory, but after tests I found out that it is clearly a bad card in Pox. It gives you really bad starting hands because of the colorless mana it provides. Plus it is really mana hungry. You have to use 2 of your lands (one for activation, the other is the factory) to attack, so you can't play spells AND attack (as opposed to Idol). I'd rather spend 3 manas to activate totem and swing for 5 instead of 2!
I lowered the number of kegs from 3 to 2, because I didn't like drawing multiples.
4 Ritual IS a necessary evil. It can wrecks your opponent's plans. And it is a great tempo card. Not a bad inclusion for a tempo deck!:wink:
2 Top is fine. I never have problems because of the lack of Top. But if you run 3 you'll have problems with multiples.
You will also note that I have 4 Tainted Aether in the SB. Like I said last week, this seems like THE solution for bad aggro MU. I'm gonna test it next week.
The 4 Zuran Orb are in the SB for the heavy burn meta. There are always some kids that are coming to a tournament with a burn deck, and with no luck you can get paired against them.

@Sea R Hill:
Why no Innocent Blood / Funeral Charm? And how necessary have you found Crucible to be, considering you already have Totem [for mana-fixing] but don't have Factory?

@Kant:
Disk is just a no-no for this deck. The idea is to keep your opponent's resources at low levels, sacrificing your own in the process. Having 4 mana around either means a) you're already well on your way to winning, b) you've failed miserably, or c) you should be doing something more important so you could be in situation a. Disk only matters in b, as a last resort. But more often than not, it's just going to delay the inevitable anyway.

If you want board control, Keg is the way to go. It fits the curve and the MO of the deck, as it deals with the stuff that does manage to get through your disruption. It supplements your disruption rather than being the massive panic button that Disk is.

If you really want to have a way to deal with enchantments, Disk is not it. Splashing white or green would give you Vindicate and Deed, as well as stuff like Serenity and Krosan Grip. BUT the mana will be shaky as hell, and it will take away from what you really want to do. I know this because I used to have a casual Bw Pox deck with Vindicates [this was before Smallpox]. If the mana, which would look like your run-of-the-mill Bw mana base [think Deadguy, but without Tomb of Urami or Volrath's Stronghold] was shaky for casual play, I expect it would be much worse in competitive Legacy. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth would probably help it a bit, but then adding Smallpox would negate whatever improvements UToY contributed.

Basically, Pox deals with enchantments proactively, meaning the plan is for those enchantments to never hit play in the first place - either they get discarded, or they cannot be cast because of a lack of mana [total mana OR mana of the proper color]. Those enchantments that do hit play are either ignored or disabled by the same proactive plan [ie Needle, if you have it]. And Pox is not a deck to compromise with half-assed measures like Disk [btw, Disk is one of my all-time favorites, as I used to play old school Necro and Draw-Go. But Pox is not the place for it]. If shit comes up, just play around it or, much more likely, play through it.


EDIT: I'll now be testing 2 variants of practically the same list:
4 Bloodstained Mire
15 Swamp ---> [-1]
4 Wasteland
---> [+2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth]
4 Dark Ritual ---> [-4]
2 Phyrexian Totem
4 Chimeric Idol
2 Nether Spirit ---> [+1]
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Innocent Blood
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Pox
4 Smallpox
---> [+2 Powder Keg]
SB: Keg, Infest, Leyline, Needle/Plague, extra Pox/Spirit

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Originally Posted by jebus

@Sea R Hill:
Why no Innocent Blood / Funeral Charm? And how necessary have you found Crucible to be, considering you already have Totem [for mana-fixing] but don't have Factory?

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I wanted to play innocent blood but i don't have room for it... I'm thinking to turn 2 totem into 2 innocent blood for a heavy aggro meta.
But you know i'm just saying that for you! Because i will never, never play Pox in an aggro meta!:tongue:
More seriously I don't like dead cards. Innocent blood is one. It doesn't help against low creatures decks because you already have poxes and keg. And against aggro u won't have enough removal anyway, it'll just kill their weakest creature, or even worst, a token. That's why Tainted Aether in the SB can be awesome.

I also agree with what has been said on Funeral Charm before. It is a bad removal, and a bad discard card. I tried it and it is too often a dead card.

Anyway, even without any Factory, Crucible is AWESOME. It is an autowin against decks with a high special lands count. It lets you recurr the cabal pit. It lets you pox whithout being mana screwed. And finally it is recurring shuffling effect (fetch) for the SDT (plus it thins tour deck).
Without factory I found that 3 was too much. Two is fine.

I like Vindicate solely because it kills Vial, while also killing anything else, often a land. Why don't more of the Crucible builds run Mox Diamond?

Basically all the reasons given not to play disk have been correct. Keg fits the curve and the game plan. It compliments what's already in the deck. A turn 2 keg is usually far, far more effective than a turn 4 disk, which is both slower and less likely. The only reasonable way to go if one really wants to deal with enchantments is to splash green or white. If low CC enchants were that big of a problem, I think I'd just not play pox.

You guys are either underestimating or badly misusing funeral charm. Soltari Priest, lackey, dark confidant, elves, BOP, faerie conclave, jackal pup, savannah lions...

I can't even venture a guess as to how many of the above I've killed with funeral charm. There are others but those above are the most common. Did I mention I did it at instant speed, allowing me to cast sinkhole/hymn on turn 2 after popping their guy?

Innocent blood can hit anything, but as people have said before it often hits the worst of the bunch. Funeral charm sometimes hits the worst but sometimes also hits the best! With crappy creature X on the board (perhaps eternal witness even?) along with dark confidant or lackey, would you rather have blood or funeral charm? Not only will blood hit crappy creature X, but as a sorcery it will tie up an extra mana on your turn, decreasing your chances of hitting the important creature with pox/smallpox.

This is only half the card. The other half is when your opponent is topdecking and you charm away whatever they drew. This effect can sometimes be mediocre (taking a land or something not very pertinent) or sometimes excellent. I've hit crucibles and vials. I've also hit mongeese/bears/fledgelings/enforcers. I've smacked all kinds of things. Don't forget that it's a reasonable way to slow down solidarity also, whereas blood is not.

Now that I've talked up funeral charm a lot because I happen to like it, I'll talk about where it's not so great. I don't play against a lot of madness, if I did then I wouldn't run charm. Besides the fact that innocent blood is 10x better against madness than charm, charm can be completely dead or even help them if you don't play it carefully. It's a liability in any case. Madness is the best example, but any deck that likes to put certain cards in the yard is going to make charm a liability. Obviously LftL decks, but that matchup is so awful I don't think replacing 4 charms with anything reasonable makes a difference. Innocent blood is about 100x better against reanimator.dec than charm, so if people like playing reanimator against you then blood is your friend. Finally, innocent blood is about 5x better against threshold than charm, so that's another factor. I win most of my thresh matches, rarely play madness, and never see reanimator. I do see a lot of gobs and solidarity. So, I play charm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Androstanolone

Finally, innocent blood is about 5x better against threshold than charm, so that's another factor. I win most of my thresh matches, rarely play madness, and never see reanimator. I do see a lot of gobs and solidarity. So, I play charm.

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I don't need extra removal against *****, this is already an easy MU. I don't see any madness, because this is not a good deck in legacy. Same for reanimator or WW.
You talk abourt "Soltari Priest, lackey, dark confidant, elves, BOP, faerie conclave, jackal pup, savannah lions" but I only see lackey, Bob and elves. The other creatures just come in bad decks (lions, pup, priest; conclave is just seen in landstill which is not heavily played and is already an easy MU cauz it don't like discard at all).

And if your opponent is in a topdeck mode, it is because you didn't do a good work. With all the land destruction your opponent always has cards in hand.

Although some of those creatures only get played in "bad decks" they get played nonetheless. There are always people cheaply throwing together their sligh-esque aggro/control mix of choice quickly before a tournament. Besides that, lackey and confidant are scary enough to a pox deck that I want my 1cc removal to kill them every time, not just 90% of the time. Also, landstill might be a positive matchup but it is winnable for them. If they can counterspell something early and drop a crucible then pox is in for an arduous journey. Charm is better than blood in this case, and landstill is a MU I play sometimes.

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And if your opponent is in a topdeck mode, it is because you didn't do a good work. With all the land destruction your opponent always has cards in hand.

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This statement is both a gross over generalization and inaccurate. Let's analyze the two extremes of pox, heavy discard and heavy LD. Discard quantities range from 6-16 and LD is 8-12. The effects of pox and smallpox have a similar effect on cards in hand and lands and so are not being counted.

It is reasonable to imagine that, against a deck with a few basic lands for protection, a low mana curve, and with a discard-heavy pox deck, that one may sometimes encounter winning situations where the opponent is topdecking. Most legacy decks have a relatively low curve so they will still cast some spells even at <3 lands and thus end up topdecking. Some strong discard combined with reasonable board control can easily attain this. Therefore, Sea R Hill's argument against funeral charm is invalid.

Androstanolone, I agree with you for "bad aggro decks" that can not be an easy MU. But that's why I have Tainted Aether in the board. Anyway, I am gonna test it tonight and tomorrow.
I have played Landstill for a long time now, I played it at the last legacy GP, and I won multiple 40+ tournaments with this incredibly strong deck. And I can tell you that the worst MUs for Landstill are black discard/LD decks. I never never won against a deck like that with Landstill. It is 98% unwinnable. SO we really don't have to worry about the landstill MU.
Anyway, I don't know why you are not takin Pox effects into account.

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Let's analyze the two extremes of pox, heavy discard and heavy LD. Discard quantities range from 6-16 and LD is 8-12. The effects of pox and smallpox have a similar effect on cards in hand and lands and so are not being counted.

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I am saying that because you have a high LD count, your opponent always has cards in hand. So Pox effects must be taken into account. That means that there are 4+4+4+3=15 LD effects. (based on 4 waste, 4 Sinkhole, 4 SmallPox, 3 Pox).
Look at the ***** MU: they have the lowest curve, and their hand is always full.
If you're opponent has no cards in hand, you've already lost. Like you said,the decks with a low curve that manage to have enough basic lands to survive to 3-4 Pox, 4 Sinkhole and 4 Smallpox are very rare, and if they don't have cards in hand, it is because they are shuffling their cards together cauz' they allready smashed your face!:wink:

From a pure gameplay stand point, probably more than half the games I play, my opponent is forced into topdeck mode before I kill them, and I usually DO kill them.

15 land destruction is solid, but it's not always enough when most decks run 22 land. Especially considering that Wasteland does nothing against a decent number of decks, Solidarity etc. And even more so when your opponent likes to keep mana flooded hands against this matchup. So they do get to play some of their cards, and the other ones get discarded to duress, hymn, pox and smallpox.

I'm not advocating Funeral Charm though. But the card IS versatile and there's one match up where you consistently like it over Duress and usually Innocent Blood, goblins. Depending on how prevalent goblins is where you play, running it might be the right choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

I'm not advocating Funeral Charm though. But the card IS versatile and there's one match up where you consistently like it over Duress and usually Innocent Blood, goblins. Depending on how prevalent goblins is where you play, running it might be the right choice.

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Depending on how prevalent goblins is where you play, playing Pox might not be the right choice.
I clearly don't want to weakened all my MU just for one terrible MU that's still bad with funeral charm.

Anyway, yesterday I playtested against Fish and Fairie Stompy for 10 hours, so I have some feedback to give you!

Fish:
I just lost once against Fish, because I did mulligan to 4 the first time (one waste was my only land each time). All the other games I easily won.
Wasteland is a pretty tough card for that MU, especially with a Crucible.
I noted that even if I'm not running Factory anymore (and I didn't missed it at all), I can get color screwed. But since I'm not running factory this have been a lot better than before.

FS:
Not an easy MU. It is very winnable, but one card is totally killing us: Chalice at 1. No Duress, no Innocent blood. And these are pretty tough cards for that MU. I wished the Totems I exchanged for innocent blood were actually totems...
I think I'm pretty sure to take out innocent blood. For all the reasons I already gave, and for that chalice. Chalice is more and more played in many decks. And FS is more and more played in my meta (more than goblins).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sea R Hill

If you're opponent has no cards in hand, you've already lost.

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That makes as much sense as a screen door in a submarine.

The debate over Funeral Charm vs Innocent Blood is futal. Base it on your metagame. Like you said, if goblins is such a force in your meta you shouldnt be playing pox anyways.

Anyways, despite the best efforts of myself and my team we cant get a better record than 2-2 or 3-2 with the deck. We fixed the consistancy issues with the crucible/top version but the bad matchups still reared their ugly heads. Small Pox was a bomb but until we see a new kill condition this decks on the back burner for me. Later pox thread!

Thank you for your contributions so far. One favor to ask. Before you go,

Could you maybe elaborate on what matchups exactly you guys are having so much trouble with?

And also, what build and sideboard you were running?

Goblins I agree with you is only about even even with 4 Infest and 4 Engineered Plague in the side, but the majority of the other matchups you face are in this deck's favor if it's a strong build.

I have a very good record and multiple small tourney wins with my build (essentially post #1 -3 Dark Ritual, +3 Top). I honestly can't think of too many decks that have better percentages against the general meta.

Its a page or two back, it hasnt been changed at all. The deck lost by not winning fast enough when the disruption wave was complete. Thats been the problem with the deck since the beginning. It wasnt a particular matchup that was terrible but I wouldnt suggest anyone bring this to GP Columbus without maindeck Engineered Plagues.

On the contrary, the build you're running makes a huge difference as to whether or not you can keep the disruption flowing. And your build as I recall ran something like 20 cards different than mine, with no recursion of Wastelands with Crucibles or Top to keep you drawing the disruption you need precisely when you need it. I'm 90% sure that's why you're having trouble with the deck.

On the subject of maindecking Engineered Plague, here's what I'm trying out for an aggro dominated metagame, basically
running it against a gauntlet of fast and aggressive decks (not just
limiting it to goblins). It's been faring well so far.

8 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Cabal Pit

4 Innocent Blood
4 Infest

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Nether Spirit
2 Phyrexian Totem

Sideboard
4 Extripate
4 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
3 Pithing Needle/Powder Keg/The Abyss

As you can see, after having to make due with 2 Top, I just tonight
went back up to 3. And the main questions that remains is...

Should I go up to 5 fetchlands in order to support the 3 Top.

Does The Abyss warrant 3 sideboard slots, or is the card too slow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

And the main questions that remains is...

Should I go up to 5 fetchlands in order to support the 3 Top.

Does The Abyss warrant 3 sideboard slots, or is the card too slow.

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Wow.
What do you guys not take into account what I say? Do you think I'm some random bad player?
Your main questions are about an extra land and a card that's killing your neither spirit every turn. Incredible.
How could you not try Tainted Aether but want to play The Abyss????:confused:
Regarding your build, my main questions would be: "Why am I running Totem over Idol in an anti-aggro build?"
"Why am I running 25 lands along with 3 Crucible and 2 Totem?"

Lol, my choice to try the Abyss is nothing against you. I am just concerned about Aether being unable to do anything if your opponent has a couple of creatures out already and can win with them, while The Abyss forces them to sac one each turn, and combined with Innocent Blood has a chance to let you recover. In addition, once you stabilize and remove all their threats, they will lose any creature they cast. Whereas with Aether, they can sac a land and keep beating.

Aether might be better, I'm not sure, but the two cards are different enough and strong enough that both are worth trying IMO.

I'm running 25 lands and 3 crucibles for the same reason I always have, to let me sac wastelands, and to pox and smallpox without hesistation, and to recur factories. Mana screw is just as viable against aggro as it is against anything else.

After spending the whole day running the below deck through the
gauntlet, I'm ready to reveal by latest build...

I named this deck... Vadka Pox

3 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
3/4 Mishra's Factory
2 Polluted Delta
1 Cabal Pit

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4/3 Pox
4 Vindicate

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Crucible of World
3 Nether Spirit
2 Phyrexian Totem

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Infest

I tested something near identical to this but this was prior to when I
made the switch from Dark Ritual to Sensei's Top. Before the change,
the white splash wasn't worth it as you couldn't play Vindicate off of
Ritual, and the deck was forced to try and win earlier as it had no
way to keep the disruption flowing through Top. But now that I'm
running Top and fetchlands to support them, this seemed like the
natural next step and I had to test it.

Vindicate gives you a way to deal with stuff like Aether Vial or
Pithing Needle, but faster than Powder Keg did. More importantly, it
supplements your land destruction, and if you're really desperate,
your creature kill, to utterly decimate your opponent's manabase.
After my day of testing consisting of several dozens of games, I think
the deck can now claim a slightly higher than 50% win rate against
goblins (if including the postboard matches too)!

If you do play somewhere where decks running 23+ fast cretaures (this deck's ONLY weakness) frequently show up, then you can of course maindeck either the Ghostly Prisons or the Infests in place of either the Duresses or possibly Tops just to give you a strong preboard matchup too. Right now, I'm trying to see if there's any other white sideboard options against aggro.

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If you do play somewhere where decks running 23+ fast cretaures (this deck's ONLY weakness) frequently show up,

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The deck is much weaker against loam/land.dec variants than weenie swarm decks. Maindecking ankh of mishra is a pretty good option in the former cast, with leylines in the side. Fortunately loam/land isn't too common so we don't really resort to such tactics.

I'm glad to see that cutting ritual has worked out for you :). Replacing it with top is a natural step. Both are turn one plays and result in -1 card advantage immediately. Top, however, has the ability to pull its weight and then some in the long run. Dark ritual is just a one shot and gone deal.

With that said, top has been underwhelming for me. I never seem to have a fetch land around when I need it and the top of my deck gets crowded with lands or other cards I don't want. The top ends up not doing much for me. Also, if you're going to splash white, I'd try to make the most of it and include Gerrard's Verdict. Choice discard can be bad, though, so I can understand you not including it. It can be really potent and the life gain is relevant sometimes.

Anyway, good luck, vodka is my liquor of choice :).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

On the contrary, the build you're running makes a huge difference as to whether or not you can keep the disruption flowing. And your build as I recall ran something like 20 cards different than mine, with no recursion of Wastelands with Crucibles or Top to keep you drawing the disruption you need precisely when you need it. I'm 90% sure that's why you're having trouble with the deck.

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You should maybe check to see my latest list posted before making remarks like that. As far as Im concerned Aggrozombies and I put most of the extensive development into the deck. I know he isnt sold on your white splash and niether am I but let me put clearly for you, Vindicate does not help the goblin matchup. It deals with Vial just as fast as Powder Keg but cant be used to hit multiples. Bane of the Living came up with the inclusion of Crucible. I implimented and pushed the change pages ago, go refresh your memory. Page four on this thread, we started testing it last October. I also added top to the developed list. Regardless I just havent found enough success with the deck. You dont have stronger matchups than the Deadguy/Red Death ones but still restrict yourself to things like no Pox unfriendly creature base, ect.