Wasn't spoils played in the first versions of belcher. If I remember right it was dropped because you lost too many games to the card for it to be actually effective.
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Wasn't spoils played in the first versions of belcher. If I remember right it was dropped because you lost too many games to the card for it to be actually effective.
What are the chances on losing 20 (or more) life with Spoils when you name a card that's not in your hand on turn 1 or 2?
Imo the best Belcher list that ever was is the CRET belcher. It's around here somewhere, only thing that needs to be changed are some things in the sideboard, otherwise it's the most consistent one.
I usually take out something like 2x Seething Song, 2x Tinder Wall, and 1x of each Spirit Guide. For the most part what acceleration you take out doesn't matter so long as you keep pretty much all of the black cards in the deck to imprint on Chrome Mox (taking out 1-2 Cabal Ritual would also be fine but I wouldn't recommend it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
It is not very likely that you will kill yourself with Spoils so long as you do the math first. Like if you name Rite of Flame and have 2x Rite of Flame in your hand, that is not a good chance of survival. Try to think of Spoils as a pseudo Burning Wish, numerous times I have emptied my hand and cracked and LED with Spoils on the stack naming Empty the Warrens. And really, the life loss from Spoils (from what I have seen) is almost less than that of Plunge into Darkness because depending on the situation you almost always pay 8-14 life. It is also great for milling away lands. Casting Spoils and watching your lands be milled away is great, all the better for Belcher. But there will be times where you kill yourself with it. There will be 4x Belcher left in the deck and taking 20 from Spoils naming Belcher sucks, it happens, but not to often. To some people that is unacceptable which is fine, but due to the nature of decks that can consistently win on turns 1-3 I think it is just an assumed risk.
After doing some more research and talking to people, I've found that the actual difference between the decks is minimal. I did about 50 goldfishes with each version (ontop of my previous experience with the deck), and I've found the results to be pretty much the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
BLACK
-for Dark Ritual is basically trying to eliminate that last slot that the R/G version doesn't have. I'll be honest, I've had some explosive starts that I don't usually get with R/G, but I also flip Bayou often enough that it makes me worried about the odds of it happening in a tournament.
-for tutors is probably unnecessary. The deck is consistent enough by packing 11 win conditions - I will occassionally mulligan down to six or even five to hit a win condition but it's not very often that I do.
STRAIGHT RG
-offers the same punch without worrying about flipping a Bayou and balancing R, G, and B sources.
-the final four slots can just as easily be Street Wraith, effectively cutting fat and increasing the chance of finding cards you need to win. Contrary to popular belief, I've never really found it that hard to decide mulligans with a Street Wraith in my opening hand.
-these slots can also be used for Magus or Pyroblast, depending on metagame.
-with this setup I am also able to run one land. Many argue that you lose stability, but I haven't really found it to be a problem...if you're looking for stability, you're already on the long road from winning.
I can't really decide between CRET and RG 1-land right now, but I suspect the difference won't be that big. I can't see any clear advantages or disadvantages between the two, because they balance out pretty well.
I'm also having trouble deciding a proper sideboard. Do people prefer hand disruption? Or does rolling with Blasts/Swarms/Sprees been working out fine?
In my experiance Belcher sideboards consist of Blasts and Sprees, and some wish targets. I'd say 5-6 Blasts is standard, and 4 Sprees.
Four Spree is far too many. Two, tops. How often are you going to need to expend mana into a Burning Wish to go for a second Shattering Spree, let alone a fourth, with Replicate? The sideboard should consist of 6-8 relevant Blast effects. This allows you to more readily combat the game two and three traditional oceanic hate that is sure to come in against you. And if they play Explosives - all you can do is cry and go into top-deck mode. Spree is generally there only for Needle, and that pretty much it. If your opponent knows you're going to dump your hand for 12 tokens, they're ready to clear your board with open mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
Ok now the board is getting really cluttered if we're going to shove in 6-8 Blast effects, unless you're going to count hand disruption under the same category.
Necessary (5):
Empty the Warrens
Goblin War Strike
Infernal Tutor
Shattering Spree x2
Then you need enchantment removal, which can be (at least one is necessary):
Simplify
Reverent Silence
Hull Breach
To make breathing room:
Pyroclasm
Cave-In
Anti-blue:
Pyroblast
Red Elemental Blast
Xantid Swarm
Hand Disruption:
Thoughtseize
Duress
Other:
Tendrils of Agony
Diminishing Returns
Magus of the Moon
I omitted other random stuff such as Grapeshot, Ignite Memories, and creature-based sideboard strategies. With the remaining 10 slots, how would you best configure for a wide metagame? How would you decide between the different enchantment removal spells and/or Pyroclasm vs. Cave-In?
1.) It's just the same: Continue to run the necessary silver bullets in your sideboard that can combat everything that they try to throw on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
2.) You should play both, if you want. I find myself playing Pyroclasm, but Cave In is very good and gets around a miscellaneous Chalice at two (if they get that far).
A lot of people read more into the Belcher sideboard than they really should. Burning Wish is really just another Empty the Warrens, a Demonic Tutor, or a Timetwister. You can have a makeshift sideboard with answers, but these should be staples:
6-8 Blasts
Diminishing Returns
Infernal Tutor
Duress/Therapy/Thoughtseize
2 Shattering Spree
This leaves 2-4 open slots that are really just wide open. When you play Belcher, you'll find yourself rarely going for the other targets with Wish.
That's true. In all of my playtesting against various opponents...95% of the time my wish is just going to be for EtW. If I'm wishing for anything else, I'm already in a jam.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Legend
I've been playing the straight RG build with Street Wraiths for the 56 card effect. The last 4 slots are usually blasts, but I have been doing some goldfishing with 2-4 Storm Entity. I know, I know - StP. The reason for my experiments is I really would like to have more than 11 kills, at least in game 1. After all, 15 > 11. So is 13. If I get Storm Entity and another kill condition, I always choose the other kill. The main benefit seems to be less Mulligans. I also occasionally get hands that generate enough manna to cast EtW or Belcher as well as SE. Thoughts?
It depends on what you mean with 15>11. On forums ">" is often used as "is better", which doesn't have to be true in this case.Quote:
Originally Posted by syssc9
Gosh, sorry. I guess I am just to mathematical at heart. I thought I was saying 15 (or even 13) win conditions is greater than 11 win conditions, or at least might result in a few less mulligans. Maybe. Sometimes.
Actually, I am not sure but isn't Summoner's Pact a good card to run in Belcher?
It acts as a storm count and a tutor for Elvish Spirit Guide, and helps thin the deck out. For builds running Tinder Wall, it can search up Tinder Wall for red mana acceleration.
This card is only good if you are going for the kill on that turn though, just wondering.
Yeha and the storm count is only for ETW? So you need another turn...?
Yeah, Pact + Empty the Warrens is not a combo. It also seems risky if you're going for Belcher, since a Force or a Stifle means that you lose, rather than just fizzle; I've found that the deck is surprisingly good at recovering from failed combo attempts over the course of several turns. So overall, Pact just doesn't seem like a good fit.
Manamorphose :1::rg:
Instant Common
Add two mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Draw a card.
Well looks like Belcher got a new toy out of this set. Seems like this is an auto include from how good it seems. It may be a 0 net on mana gain but you can fix your mana then draw a card.
Maybe this card nearly blows Wild Cantor out of the water?
Not really. Wild Cantor, you can cast on Turn 1 to have +1 mana next turn. In a straight R/G build, I don't see why the deck would ever need mana filtering.
Manamorphosis converts R to G, G to R, imprints for R/G all while being a non LED source of UU for Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns. The draw a card is + storm/mana production 75% of the time, which is better than Wild Cantor pass 100% of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
Yeah I realize the turn 1 play of wild cantor pass and having +1 mana next turn.
But the ability to draw a card off this thing while prepping yourself for any mana you need is damn good.
Especially since odds are you will topdeck a +mana effect. The only downside I see is the whole street wraith factor making it hard to know what hands to keep.
Maybe running this with Street Wraith can be a possiblity cause while opening hands would be even harder. the fact of the matter is you will be digging even deeper to get what you want.
And you can get multiples going like street wraith draw this play this street wraith etc..
Sure not guaranteed to happen but getting 2 in a row can happen pretty regularly.