Did you consider Grim Tutor?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
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Did you consider Grim Tutor?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Grim Tutor is to expensive, but after a little more goldfishing I have decided that the build I came up with is strictly inferior to TES. I really like how it plays but it needs more action spells and it doesn't mulligan very well at all.
It has been a long fucking time since anyone has posted in this thread! Anyway, I thought it would be a good idea to share this list with you guys. Someone in my meta recently made it to a top 4 split playing some kind of hybrid SI ANT list. I really liked that deck as it reminded me of old school SI! Here is his list:
4x Mystical Tutor
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Shield Sphere
4x Phyrexian Walker
4x Dark Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Ad Nauseam
1x IGG
1x Tendrils
4x Brainstorm
3x Orim's Chant
1x Echoing Truth/Chain of Vapor
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Scrubland
I truly don't know how this list plays at all. I have never put it together but it seems interesting and maybe it has some potential. This list may just be garbage but at first glance it looks pretty decent. After talking with the guy a bit he thinks the deck has to many lands and should be cut down to 12 or 13 but aside from that he really doesn't have any complaints. What is everyone's thoughts on this build? Could it thrive in today's meta?
That is not a hybrid, SI is defined by it's dependance on Draw 4's, which gives it its speed, explosiveness, and inconsistency. That looks like a deck almost everyone thought of, and IBA posted way back when. One of the first lists meant to abuse Ad-Nauseam. It looks pretty solid though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
The Legacy world championship was my first constructed tournament (I have only done two pre-release tournaments [Odyssey and Onslaught!]); so I was quite inexperienced. I decided to play with the following list, dubbed "The SAINT" because it runs the Spanish Inquisition shell with an Ad Nauseam Tendrils win-con.
The SAINT
10 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Diabolic Intent
3 Ad Nauseam
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Silence
1 Angel's Grace
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Pact of Negation
Sideboard:
2 Powder Keg
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Disciple of the Vault
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Vindicate
1 Pact of Negation
I'll quickly describe choices:
Land - mono, hard to disrupt without sinkholes. Cheap. Small accel with tower.
Accel - Cheap, fast and plentiful.
Creatures - Synergy with disciples (maybe they should have been main), free for storm, synergy with other spells.
Combo and protection - fairly disruptive, cheap, only 1 win-con.
SB:
Keg - handles a lot of things. Very useful.
GY hate - for ichorid, thresh.
Pithing - countertop, survival, tireless tribe dredge, sadistic hypnotist dredge, grindstone, etc...
Disciple - great synergy. Alt win-con. Maybe should go main.
Everything else - varies disruption theme.
I ran this list because there is NO legacy in Edmonton, Alberta. I haven't played against any of the common archetypes and therefore I thought combo would be easy to play since I don't have to have much interaction with the opponent (besides discard). As long as I know how to play with the deck, I should be able to win my matches. It's also a budget ANT list. I would have loved scrublands for more white disruption (chants, silence, grace, etc...) but I simply didn't have the cash (same goes for more of my other card selections). My favorite part of this list was that whenever I was comboing out my deck that I designed drew a crowd! I would commonly have eight people watching as my deck drew 12-15 cards off of AdN and then splattered blood all over the opponent. It was really exhilarating having that experience!
Worlds Match-ups:
M1 vs. James King playing Dredge
When I started I had no idea who James King was - I didn't know he was a really good player who has won tournaments before - I only knew after I was filling out the slip and a judge commented: "You've never filled a slip out before, and you beat this guy? Nice job!". I won the roll and duressed him first turn - mainly to discover that all my discard is now useless against my dredge opponent - but I took his breakthrough. A few turns later (my T3) I combo'd out still at 18 life when I AdN thanks to the walkers I had on the field.
Game 2 was different (I sided out all discard, pact of Neg, and sided in kegs, GY hate, needle), and I didn't have time to hold off a huge zombie swarm. I won G3 again, by comboing out very fast (let me tell you, diabolic intent is very nice for removing bridges AND finding cards I need!).
1-0-0
M2 vs. Nate playing Landstill
I went 2-0 against Nate. Having never played against standstill, I wasn't sure when I should break it, but I did it constantly - normally by playing a 0cmc creature (I won because he put standstill down to stop a fast combo; but also while he had no pressure on board) and then using mass discard effects (therapy) to rip his newly drawn cards from his hand. I comboed out both times probably on my eigth turn. It was only frustrating playing Nate because he told me "Can you play faster? Do you need to write all of these cards down?" and I had to read his cards because I've never played against them before. After the match, he got a lot better to talk to.
2-0-0
M3 vs. ???? playing ElfBall variant
Game 1 he crushed me with 24 elves and Garruk overrun on turn 4-5. I commented that it was such a cool concept for a deck, and he was proud to show it off - he told me he went top 8 last year; but lost to the guy sitting on my right, so I knew I was playing a hard match (he used a similar list last time). In the next two games, I took his entire hand apart first turn with ritual, therapy, therapy, flashback (he held 1 foothills, 2 fydhorn, 2 prefect, 2 wren's run - a GREAT CURVE... if he still had them). I comboed out by drawing through AdN and getting him before T4 both times. It sucks because he went from being a really fun opponent to play in the first game, and then just being angry and grumpy in the next two.
3-0-0
M4 vs. Josh playing Landstill
After being up late friday, and not having much sleep the day before, this is where I started to notice play mistakes. I had wrote all over my scorecard that he had FoW in hand (through duress), but I "ignored" it and ramped up mana to AdN then I saw it (game 1). In game two I was able to silence him, then AdN until I hit angel's grace, because I had flipped an AdN, I just ramped up again and then I AdN'd my entire deck ensuring victory. We ended game three in a draw after 5 extra turns - we were the last match still playing.
3-0-1
M5/M6
By this time I was dead tired. I don't know the play mistakes I made, but I do know that my "sideboarding" didn't exist. What I realized after the matches was that when I went to un-sideboard my cards... my sideboard was already intact. I had taken out the cards I wanted to switch, and promptly put them back where they came from instead of switching the piles... I felt really stupid after that, but sometimes those things happen. Both matches went 0-2. I then dropped from the tournament and went to get my first meal of the day!
FINAL: 3-2-1
So, I think my deck did pretty good, and it was at least fun to play! I even got to play a casual game against Ernest - the winner of the championship - on Sunday after we traded a few cards. It was really fun to get to talk to a player like him and talk about our decks; especially getting compliments as he had watched several of my games.
Thanks for reading.
Well, nice decklist, i was looking for a budget combo deck to build, that archetipe is missing atm on my own decks, so i think i'll build this, seems fun to play.
Do you have some tips to share about playing this deck, or maybe articles somewhere that i can read about this, beside this thread?
Sure! First off, I'll tell you about the evolution of the deck. Somebody posted (on the wizards forums) a budget mono-B SI list (running draw4's and IGG); when I saw this list it just seemed like a natural fit for Ad Nauseam. Of course, after I posted my initial list some people mentioned that this list has already been tried out - except that it ran blue for mystical tutor and white for orim's chant. Now, because that player had budget in mind (as did I), we kept it mono-B aside from whatever I have added.
For the most part playing the deck is simple; ramp up your mana, play AdN, win the game by drawing 12 cards. Generally, the hardest part for you is to decide if you have enough protection (through duress, therapy, negation) to go off that turn. When you do AdN, you also want to make sure that you have some way to generate mana - either by having some left over in your pool, not having played your land for the turn, or being able to flip a lotus petal. If you miss this step you will fizzle and discard all but the best cards in your hand - DO NOT FIZZLE.
Hands to keep:
I would keep almost any hand that had a creature, some discard and either AdN or a tutor.
I would also keep a hand with lots of discard. The biggest problem with my list is that I don't run thoughtseize (budgeted out) - if you can run it; I would!
Throw away hands with lots of petals and creatures but no way to search/disrupt/protect.
Things to remember/think about:
-Angel's Grace lets you draw the entire library when you Ad Nauseam. [edited]
-Thoughtseize could probably replace at least 2 of the duress. If you are going off slowly, its better to take out their turn 2 goyf rather than face it for the rest of the game.
-A lot of your creatures are required as sacrifices. If you have culling the weak and can win with a topdeck try for the topdeck rather than chumping your ornithopter. Same goes if you have AdN and are waiting for a quick mana accel.
-When you AdN you can safely go as low as 6 life. If you are at 5 life there are a max of two cards that will kill you (other AdN's). If you are at 4 life there is a max of 4 that can kill you. Three life: Four cards again! There are no 3cmc cards in this deck. Watch out for lightning bolt. ;p
-You might want to switch grace for silence - your choice - I haven't played the deck enough to know [bryant, emidln suggest no grace]
-Disciple of the Vault might be a good maindeck decision. You sac a lot of artifacts all the time... maybe remove two ornithopters for disciples.
-Scrublands improve your ability to cast silence/grace, but weaken your mana base to wasteland/price of progress.
-Extirpate might be a good card to have in this deck - but I don't know where it would fit.
-People kept asking me if I had chrome mox in the deck - I have two chrome mox, but they just do not fit in this deck. I would rather have mox diamond; but I don't know where it would fit. In my opinion, this deck should NOT have chrome mox. It might want mox diamond.
The most important thing to remember:
I built this deck knowing a few things about my meta-game and it changed when I went to Indianapolis. I also tested it without actually playing opponents (I just goldfished playtested because there was nobody I could play against). I suggest playtesting it and finding flaws/improvements against real opponents. I know this deck can definitely improve, so help it get there!
One last thing, when this deck was in top-deck mode there was hardly a card I got that I didn't want. Enjoy building budget storm!
How so?Quote:
Originally Posted by whidye
Play Angel's Grace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raindown
Play Ad Nauseam.
Draw library.
Win the game.
Sorry - I should have been more specific.
There's a very large difference between Angel's Grace and Ill-Gotten Gains. You need two cards to win with Angel's Grace (Ad Nauseam and Angel's Grace) one of them being a dead card roughly if not more than 75% of the time. While Ill-Gotten Gains only needs one card - itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by whidye
Why hasn't this deck been put into Casual yet? :)
I'm sorry about my ignorance, but how does the IGG loop works ?
Does the Angels Grace win work?
I thought Angels Grace only protected against damage, and Ad-N. is life loss:really:
@Bryant: I know you TES guys would like this in casual - sorry. Like I said, this was my first tournament - this was my decklist - and SI is an established deck; so I think it fits here. If it doesn't, well, sorry.
The reason I like Angel's Grace in this deck is for when I flip AdN WHILE AdNing. Because I don't have mystical tutor, I have to run more AdN maindeck. Since its easy enough to mana-ramp in this deck, if I flip an AdN and the grace but have to stop because my life is low, I can just grace, ramp, AdN again. It happened in this tournament (M4), and I was extremely glad that I had it in my deck. I don't know if its the best card to have in the deck, but I enjoyed having it.
IGG loop lets you get mana accel/tendrils/draw4 out of your GY again in order to play them again. You play your entire hand then use IGG to get cards back to up storm again and then tendrils - if you are playing draw4, you can draw into another IGG and keep going. As far as I understand it.
EDIT:
Angel's Grace works because you can't lose that turn, so when you AdN and draw your entire library you have enough spells, counters and storm to kill the opponent. Since you can't lose that turn you don't die due to <0 life. Your opponent however will die before the turn ends so angel's grace protects you.
It's a joke dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by whidye
So...You are relying on a 1 of without Mystical Tutor? This seems like great idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by whidye
The Igg loops is easier to explain like this...Quote:
Originally Posted by whidye
You have Dark Ritual/Lion's Eye Diamond x 2 + Infernal Tutor = Ill-Gotten Gains (-2BB), now you either have B or BB. Return Dark Ritual/Lion's Eye Diamond x 2 + Infernal Tutor = Tendrils of Agony.
Just an FYI: In pre-Infernal Tutor SI we actually still ran IGG because you have enough tall men to loop using Diabolic Intent.
Another FYI: Angel's Grace is fucking terrible.
I was just posting my list. If I had more Silences/Orim's Chants they would have went in the list instead. I didn't. Angel's Grace went in.
It might be terrible, but it still won me a game, and in NO WAY am I relying on it - I just didn't have silence x 2.
Did you test the 4th Cabal Therapy? Even on 8-10 tall men I was hesitant to cut the 4th Therapy because they were just sooo good.
The biggest problem I had with the therapy is that I simply felt unable to "decide" what to name. Since I haven't done testing against real opponents I didn't know what hurts my deck most. Normally, I just called FoW or something (daze/snare/counterbalance/standstill/tarmogoyf/SdT/thoughtseize were typical things I named). I agree a fourth cabal therapy is awesome - but not for me simply because I don't know what to name.
Angel's Grace is just terrible. There is really no point in running it when you run Infernal Tutor as well as Ad Nauseam.
With Therapy ... wait till your opponent plays a land then guess based off the fetch, otherwise, blind name Tarmogoyf if you want to hit most of the time. I usually call Counterbalance or Chalice when I played Cabal Therapy. However, your list did inspire me to give SI with Ad Nauseam one more shot and I came up with a list that I REALLY like:
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Infernal Tutor
3x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Shield Sphere
1x Phyrexian Walker
4x Dark Ritual
3x Culling the Weak
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Ad Nauseam
1x IGG
1x Tendrils
3x Brainstorm
1x Echoing Truth
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Pact of the Titan
4x LED
3x Cabal Ritual
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
3x Tomb of Urami
1x Volcanic Island
1x Bloodstained Mire
I used to really like Pact SI but never ran it in a tournament due to inconsistencies so I tried to figure out a way to fetch creatures for Culling the Weak then I thought about Mystical Tutor into Pact of the Titan, which has been really interesting! Pact is never dead as it always adds a storm but is often overkill with the already 5 tall men. Other than that it really plays like old school SI but not quite as explosive, getting turn 1 Culling, Ritual, Ad Nauseam with BB floating is fucking sick! Not sure about a SB yet or if this deck could even be viable in the meta. I think it could, as people really are not ready to Urami tokens and goblins to early on! Turn 1 Therapy, turn 2 Urami is really hot as well! EtW is in there just a filler since these decks have a bad tendency to go all-in with IT into LED and only be able to add 4 mana, so turn 1-2 Empty for 12-16 is usually pretty good! Any suggestions or comments??
@ pulp
I like your thinking, i never thought of puting tomb of urami in as a turn 1/2 possibility in a deck like this. I always thought it the card of pox/ any crucible deck.
while the play in itself look solid, i can't help but fell it getting swords or EE very quickly. thought any match up with those in the opposing deck would kind of make such a play a bad move. I want to ask is there a way to protect urami once he hits but that kinda seems pointless as i guess you'd rather try to build into some sort of storm combination. but with no lands i can't see either happening easily.