[DTB] U/G/x Thresh - a.k.a. Not Quite Gro, SuperGro

Quote:

---

Thats a very interesting list you got there. I have to admit it really does take advantage of Meddling Mage's ability to block cards. I have a couple of questions though, have you had issues with wasteland? Its seems like bad times for you. I also noticed that your sideboard doesn't have much against control decks, ie. wombat and landstill. Is this because of the meta where you play? If you were going to the duel for duels would you play this list as is or would you modify it a bit?

---

Well, It's pretty tuned to the Syracuse Meta (minus the red mirror, I still have trouble with that.) Wasteland pretty much doesn't exist there. Since I know what every player plays there, and if not, usually scope him out beforehand, if I know Wasteland is an issue, that's Needle Target #1. The thing with them MD is that you can afford a slightly riskier Manabase, because you can answer their Wastes starting from turn 1. As far as Wombat and Landstill, those decks don't exist here. No one has caught on to the fact that Wombat has a decent game Vs. Gro, and they're all still playing bad Solidarity or Sui Black builds. Or, half the fucking people in town play Gro. If I were going to the DfD, I would make the following modifications to my maindeck:

-4 Peek
+2 Polluted Delta
+2 Stifle

I'd have to think hard about what to change in the board, since my meta is so skewed. I'd still have Worship, Sacred Ground, the 4th Mage, Crypts, and the BEBs. I don't know what would fill out the rest.

@ 16 Lands: I honestly don't know how I get it to work. Like I said above, in a long tournament, I'd go back to 18. I tested with Wastedlife for about 3 hours one day though, and got flooded every game till I cut down to 16. I'll probably end up at 17.

@ Peek being bad: I wholeheartedly agree it sucks at drawing cards. But so does Predict in my build, and at least peek has utility. It's not a compensation for playskill, it's an advantage that your opponent isn't used to you having. Hell, if it weren't card disadvantage, I'd run Telepathy.

@ Fatty: It's EXTREMELY important. I can't tell you how much so. Sometimes, you need to win NOW, and swinging for 15+ a turn is how you do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GodzillA

Even 8 burn spells is more proactive than 4 StP, which is purely reactive. All in all, the two decks are highly similar, but the red build is more proactive, if only slightly so.

---

No, your build is more proactive. It's easily possible, and in my opinion optimal, to build the deck to have the exact same strategy as white Gro (possibly more reactive because it lacks Mages).

Quote:

---

As for having an answer to Vial, I consider Pyroclasm a cheap answer to it. I don't even bother siding in Needles for this matchup. 8-12 burn spells, counters for key threats, mass removal, and better threats of my own have proven a consistent strategy against Goblins for me. Were I running white, I'd definitely bring in Needles for this matchup, but it hasn't been necessary with the red build, in my experience.

---

If I felt that maindeck Pyroclasms weres as useful against the field as maindeck Needles, I would play them, but they aren't really comparable. In game one, the deck needs a way to answer Vial. I don't know what kind of Goblin players you've been playing against, but uncounterable card advantage beats one-for-one removal. Your "counters for key threats" plan doesn't work against a resolved Vial, and in game one when you don't have access to mass removal, you should have an extremely difficult time winning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dsg123456789

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wastedlife

@ MD needle in NQGr- In the white list it's fine because the deck is reactive. NQGr is a proactive deck, reactive cards don't belong in the MD because you want to win ASAP.

---

I would like to point out that both splashes have an identical game plan, and that calling one reactive and one proactive doesn't make sense. Just because red's removal is more flexible than white's doesn't mean the deck suddenly "goes for the throat". Red Gro an white Gro play out the same, except red does better against aggro decks while white tends to edge out combo and control decks.

---

Yes, they both have the same game plan I'll give you that but they way each deck reaches that game plan is different. White gro is usually on defense most of the game until it can slam down a few bears or enforcer. Red gro normally isn't of defense at all, if anything it is the offensive deck. That is what I ment by reactive and proactive decks. Because of white gro's inability to deal with creatures it has to stay on defense. Where as red gro can shrug it off, that is what I ment.

@MadZur- Don't get me wrong I like needle I play it too, but I just don't think it should be maineck that's all.
@Fatties- Gotta love the big ones right? I mean C'mon they're HUGE!11!1! Gro without Dragon or Enforcer would seem like it has a harder time winning.

EDIT: @ MadZur- That's the thing alot of red's removal is not just 1 for 1. With Pyroclasm, Fire/ice, and FTK you are 2 for 1'ing or more.

Quote:

---

[Mr Nightmare]I'd have to think hard about what to change in the board, since my meta is so skewed. I'd still have Worship, Sacred Ground, the 4th Mage, Crypts, and the BEBs. I don't know what would fill out the rest.

---

I really suggest finding room for Mage #4 in the maindeck. I've had to cut to 3 MD Mages because of card shaving, but there are so many games when they're a house of bricks. Also, the more you draw they better they become in limiting your opponent's options. Two+ Mages makes for a lot of dead draws.

Quote:

---

Peek being bad: I wholeheartedly agree it sucks at drawing cards. But so does Predict in my build, and at least peek has utility.

---

"Suck[ing] at drawing cards" isn't the real problem, but sucking at drawing early lands is. Running only 16-18 land, you're far more likely than any other deck to get stuck playing one land hands. But those are usually playable as long as you can reliably make your early land drops and keep up the deck's momentum. Peak helps some, but isn't better than say Sleight of Hand.

Quote:

---

@ Fatty: It's EXTREMELY important. I can't tell you how much so. Sometimes, you need to win NOW, and swinging for 15+ a turn is how you do it.

---

Word. Fatties are tech for the mirror and randomness, both of which are common.

If Goblins has an active Vial in game one, they're going to gain massive inevitability on you. That means you have to take the role of beatdown. Their card advantage, through free and uncounterable Ringleaders, Matrons, Siege-Gangs, and Kiki-Jikis allows them to fill their board with more creatures than you can remove. Thus, not only do you need to play beatdown, you need to do so with Gempalm Incinerator taking down your targetable creatures, and the threat of Warchiefs, Piledrivers, Pyromancers, and/or Kings coming into play at instant speed for an alpha strike.

But that's game one. In game two, you get Pyroclasm, which means you can beat the sort of Goblin players that overextend whether they resolve Vial or not. However, if the Goblin player plays intelligently, and uses the card advantage Vial gives him access to in order to play around Pyroclasm, you'll still be in trouble. FTK won't help a whole lot because it costs four, gets killed very easily, and only gets rid of one threat. Going down to eight draw spells doesn't exactly help any of this. Predict is better than FTK because it costs half as much for the same card advantage, and gets you closer to Pyroclasm.

Whether or not to maindeck Needle depends largely on the metagame; I'm just arguing that it's good against Goblins. Certainly if you see as much of the mirror match as is supposedly present in Syracuse, boarding them is defensible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mad Zur

If Goblins has an active Vial in game one, they're going to gain massive inevitability on you. That means you have to take the role of beatdown. Their card advantage, through free and uncounterable Ringleaders, Matrons, Siege-Gangs, and Kiki-Jikis allows them to fill their board with more creatures than you can remove. Thus, not only do you need to play beatdown, you need to do so with Gempalm Incinerator taking down your targetable creatures, and the threat of Warchiefs, Piledrivers, Pyromancers, and/or Kings coming into play at instant speed for an alpha strike.

But that's game one. In game two, you get Pyroclasm, which means you can beat the sort of Goblin players that overextend whether they resolve Vial or not. However, if the Goblin player plays intelligently, and uses the card advantage Vial gives him access to in order to play around Pyroclasm, you'll still be in trouble. FTK won't help a whole lot because it costs four, gets killed very easily, and only gets rid of one threat. Going down to eight draw spells doesn't exactly help any of this. Predict is better than FTK because it costs half as much for the same card advantage, and gets you closer to Pyroclasm.

Whether or not to maindeck Needle depends largely on the metagame; I'm just arguing that it's good against Goblins. Certainly if you see as much of the mirror match as is supposedly present in Syracuse, boarding them is defensible.

---

I think you over-exagerate vial. I've played the goblin match-up plenty of times and haven't lost. Vial isn't that big of differance, let goblins sit back and not play spells. Let them just vial out creatures, thier clock is alot less scary then. If they are playing spells counterspell what they are playing and let them vial. Kill whatever you need to and trade with the others.
Don't get me wrong I'm aware of what vial can do, but it's not that broken of a card. Ask Brolio, I was testing against him last night he vialed out all 4 ringleaders and a kiki. I still won that game, Vial goblins ability to gain card advantage isn't always 4 or 3 goblins. 1/2 the time it's goblins you don't care about like late game lackeys, fanatics, and prospectors.
Flametongue kavu is taking the place of another 4cc card (dragon) so you're at the same curve as you were game 1. I know he is balls ass expensive but he does get the job done.

@ Needle - I do board it in for goblins but I'm not going to say the first thing I name is going to be needle if they have port action going on, I will deal with that first.

I think Mr.Nightmare is over-exaggerating on how many people play Gro/Threshold. Last sunday we had 18 people and I was the only Threshold player. On occasion when kadilak feels like not being a bitch and playing he plays gro. Nat (Brushwagg) plays gro a few times a month, sometimes other stuff. Mr. Nightmare plays gro or turboland it's a coin toss. We have 4 people that play gro it's not all that grand.

The meta in Syracuse has shifted a little, true, but there was a week where there were 6 Gro decks of varying splashes out of 16 people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wastedlife

NQGr is a proactive deck, reactive cards don't belong in the MD because you want to win ASAP.

---

If you are trying to win as quickly as possible you are playing the wrong deck. Grow is not designed to Goldfish faster than Goblins or the combo decks. Building the deck for speed will Severly hurt you in practically every matchup.

Regarding going to 16 lands: In the build I play (Mad Zur's list practically) I don't have issues because my draw spells allow me to draw the cards I need, rather than a random card three cards down(ie mental note). I believe the correct build of grow is one that creates the greatest amount of answers in any given matchup. Draw that isn't selective doesn't contribute to generating answers. That is why you see most of the red builds playing huge amounts of redundancy, which is good, but the deck can give you the wrong answers sometimes (creatures when you need removal, removal when you need counters, etc). I Like the hand sculpting that Predict allows. However, it goes withought saying that the strategy is slightly different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wastedlife

NQGr is a proactive deck, reactive cards don't belong in the MD because you want to win ASAP.

---

If you are trying to win as quickly as possible you are playing the wrong deck. Grow is not designed to Goldfish faster than Goblins or the combo decks. Building the deck for speed will Severly hurt you in practically every matchup.

---

I'm not saying I want to goldfish faster than goblins. The draw engine that supports this deck doesn't support a long lasting game. After you are done playing cantrips and killing shit you are often down to a few cards. Which won't lead to a long game. If you have a deck that wins at a decent speed you won't have to worry about the long game. I'm not saying white gro can't win at a decent speed but it takes longer, and by then the draw engine is done because you are on fewer cards or top deck mode.

Quote:

---

I Like the hand sculpting that Predict allows.

---

How in the world is Predict a "hand sculpter"? This is true for Serum Visions and Brainstorm of course, but I don't see how that applies here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mad Zur

No, your build is more proactive. It's easily possible, and in my opinion optimal, to build the deck to have the exact same strategy as white Gro (possibly more reactive because it lacks Mages).

---

We may be arguing symantics at this point, but I'd say that any build with 8 or more MD burn spells is more proactive, if only slightly so. Burn can always be proactive; StP never can be. And while Mage is inherently proactive, neither it nor StP can be used to build thresh a turn sooner in a vacuum like burn can. Proactive vs. reactive may be the incorrect focal point to the discussion; what we're really talking about is aggressiveness, and in this sense, UGr has the ability to play more aggressively than UGw, both because it can send damage to the dome, and because it can build thresh more quickly if it needs to. I'll reiterate, though, that I don't believe this makes MD Needle an unviable option in UGr builds.

Quote:

---

I don't know what kind of Goblin players you've been playing against, but uncounterable card advantage beats one-for-one removal.

---

Clearly. Pyroclasm isn't one-for-one removal, though.

Quote:

---

Your "counters for key threats" plan doesn't work against a resolved Vial, and in game one when you don't have access to mass removal, you should have an extremely difficult time winning.

---

If countering key threats were my only plan, I would agree with you, but it is only a smaller portion of a larger strategy, as I indicated in my earlier post. As for game 1, it's not nearly as difficult as you suggest. It's certainly much closer to 50-50 than post board, but it's by no means unwinnable or even significantly unfavorable, in my testing.

This line of discussion perhaps belies the point, however. You're speaking as though I suggested that Pithing Needle is an unacceptable maindeck inclusion, which I never did. In an extremely Goblins heavy meta, I might run it, or I might run maindecked Pyroclasms, depending on which is better against the rest of the field. Certainly Needle is a strong choice in the modern metagame, and I absolutely advocate at least 3 of them between the maindeck and the sideboard. Whether they belong in the maindeck at all is quite clearly a metagame choice, no?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GodzillA

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mad Zur

Fatties are good in the mirror.

---

QFT. It's also good against randomness, and there's plenty of that in the format. Particularly in the red build, 8 threats is simply too few to rely upon in my opinion. The white build can theoretically avoid fat because it's also running Mages, but the deck needs more than 8 threats in a varied metagame.

---

I was actually referring only to the white build. Is there a compelling reason to continue running Enforcer? Dealing with randomness isn't a good reason to run maindeck cards. Helmut won the threshold mirror all day without them, as well. I still think his creature base is superior to all others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bardo_trout

How in the world is Predict a "hand sculpter"? This is true for Serum Visions and Brainstorm of course, but I don't see how that applies here.

---

Sorry for the missunderstanding. The reason I see Predict as a way of sculpting your hand stems from the fact that it gets rid of cards you don't want to see, and generates card advantage. I would argue that card advantage, by drawing multiple cards, is one way of making a better hand and creating answers. I hope that cleared up what I meant.

Quote:

---

I was actually referring only to the white build. Is there a compelling reason to continue running Enforcer? Dealing with randomness isn't a good reason to run maindeck cards. Helmut won the threshold mirror all day without them, as well.

---

The reason for running Enforcer is still the same as it was in Super Grow. Without it the white build has no reach at all. Reach is extremely important to the overall strategy. It can break stalemates and win games that would otherwise be lost. You might be able to make an arguement for simply running 4/4/4 (mongoose, bear, mage). Though it might be important to point out that the winning build at Lille had reach as well, in the form of burn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Machinus

I was actually referring only to the white build. Is there a compelling reason to continue running Enforcer? Dealing with randomness isn't a good reason to run maindeck cards. Helmut won the threshold mirror all day without them, as well. I still think his creature base is superior to all others.

---

He was also playing 4 color and couldn't afford to mess up the manabase even more by having a card with 2 off colors. I Honestly have been getting quite angry at my deck lately, I never F'ing draw Dragon. I mean, I want to but I won't. I should start wanting to draw lands so I can quit being flooded all the time. As for big dudes I agree with what Happy Gilmore said on the beef. I was testing against Kaddyshack tonight in the NQGr Mirror and whoever drew dragon won, if it resolved.

I think Mr.Nightmare is over-exaggerating on how many people play Gro/Threshold. Last sunday we had 18 people and I was the only Threshold player. On occasion when kadilak feels like not being a bitch and playing he plays gro. Nat (Brushwagg) plays gro a few times a month, sometimes other stuff. Mr. Nightmare plays gro or turboland it's a coin toss. We have 4 people that play gro it's not all that grand.[/QUOTE]

Hey don't forget about retard Jeremy!

But yeah, there really aren't that many other players that matter that show up on a regular basis in our meta game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Getsickanddie

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wastedlife

I think Mr.Nightmare is over-exaggerating on how many people play Gro/Threshold. Last sunday we had 18 people and I was the only Threshold player. On occasion when kadilak feels like not being a bitch and playing he plays gro. Nat (Brushwagg) plays gro a few times a month, sometimes other stuff. Mr. Nightmare plays gro or turboland it's a coin toss. We have 4 people that play gro it's not all that grand.

---

Hey don't forget about retard Jeremy!

But yeah, there really aren't that many other players that matter that show up on a regular basis in our meta game.

---

He was playing Springtide BTW, which is a very easy match-up for gro I found out, I played a few games in between rounds with him.

EDIT- LMFAO at Baby Killer Adept.

I don't agree that Spring Tide is a very easy matchup for Gro, and if you found it such, than the Spring Tide player wasn't a very good player. I've played Gro several times, and I've found that Spring Tide has a heavy advantage in the matchup. Just like Solidarity, Spring Tide can go off through two or three permission spells, and Gro can't muster anything more than that on their second or third turns. After board Defense Grid comes in to kick your ass. If that resolves the game is over, and even if it doesn't you've wasted one or two permission spells, and it becomes simple to go off next turn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man

I don't agree that Spring Tide is a very easy matchup for Gro, and if you found it such, than the Spring Tide player wasn't a very good player. I've played Gro several times, and I've found that Spring Tide has a heavy advantage in the matchup. Just like Solidarity, Spring Tide can go off through two or three permission spells, and Gro can't muster anything more than that on their second or third turns. After board Defense Grid comes in to kick your ass. If that resolves the game is over, and even if it doesn't you've wasted one or two permission spells, and it becomes simple to go off next turn.

---

You're kidding right? The Spring Tide match-up is the same as the Solidarity match-up. You beat both of them, I'm not saying they're a cakewalk, however you don't need to worry about them. Gro is just too hard for them to beat, with a fast clock and counters. I don't see how you see it as a bad match-up at all. Board defense grid turn 2 huh? Gro runs 7-8 counters that can counter that turn 2 no need to fret about that. As for Solidarity/Springtide yes, they can go through 2 or 3 counterspells but not on turns 1-4. Often a Daze completly wrecks them, I've done it to solidarity. Daze Hightide, counter,counter. That's enough about the Solidarity match-up.
What do people think of the 4 color list? I know some people trying to scrap up a list for it. What would be some pros and cons to it?

You're confusing Solidarity and Spring Tide a lot here. The matchups are a lot different for Gro. Solidarity can't go off until turn 4, ever, and often it doesn't go off until turn 5 or 6. By that point you've got a threat or two on the board and counters in hand. Spring Tide can go off as early as turn 2, and highly consistantly on turn 3. It can't whether quite as many counterspells as Solidarity, but on your first or second turn, when Spring Tide goes off, you'll only have one or two counters and Tide can easily play around that. Grid from the board is just another must counter, and if it resolves you've lost.

While Solidarity may be heavily in your favor because you can drop a Meddling Mage and back him up with a few counters, that just doesn't work with Spring Tide. It is faster, more consistant, has more draw and untap, and it plays maindeck bounce for the Mages.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wastedlife

What would be some pros and cons to it?

---

The Pros are that you get Meddling Mage and Burn. The cons are that you destabilize an already unstable manabase. Simply put, it's not particularly worth the tradeoff. If you're playing red and you find you're not beating combo without Mage, run SB specific cards to beat that combo. An example would be REB or Stifle for the High Tide matchup, particularly since these cards are good against a bunch of other decks as well.

The main reason a 4c build won GP Lille is because it was heavily metagamed to win the mirror match. In doing so, the deck is able to run Meddling Mage, naming things he knows his opponent is playing and that he is not (e.g., StP). It was a ncie strategy, and in a Gro heavy meta it would probably work again. But beyond that, I don't see any valid reason to stretch the manabase to support 4 colors; there's isn't much offered by it that is needed.