[OLD] UGr Threshold

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You only need one creature to win, just one. Saying you dislike Counterspell because it doesn't allow you to drop a creature that turn is flawed logic.

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Anyhow... you obviously play the control version of UGR-Thresh. I have no problem with that, I like that version and play it sometimes when my meta calls for it. What I'm saying (and I might not have been clear) is:

1) I prefer Stifle over Counterspell in the aggro version of UGR-Thresh (for example Liek's list);
2) I prefer Counterspell over Stifle in the control version of UGR-Thresh (for example Zur's list).

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You can have all 4 tarmogyfs out against goblins and still lose. If you can’t stop certain threats on the stack you’re screwed.

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I fail to see a point here... (and I agree with you).

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Stifle is cute but will never answer the threats in Goblins. Without Counterspell or Predict Goblins will bury you in card advantage.

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This is speculation, not a fact. Liek's record (and my record) against Goblins tend to show your statement is false. (Stifle Ringleader, Stifle Matron doesn't stop card advantage ?!?!?).

P.S.: Stop acting like the inquisition. I don't want to impose my card choices on anybody; I'm not trying to keep you in a corner with no air.

I dislike Counterspell in the aggro build. I like being able to cast Dryad and Goyf early in the game since... heh... I'm playing the aggro build. I also like to be able to cast one of these creatures and still be able to respond to activated or triggered abilities by having only U open (Ringleader, Matron, Fetchland, Wasteland, Vial, etc.).

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You only need one creature to win, just one

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Hum, vs gob (with aggro build), I am really happy when I manage to play 2-3 creatures which are bigger than those gobbos.
You can really win the game by playing the beatdown role, then in the last "hot" turns, keep your mongoose for defense to block a lethal Piledriver, and keep putting pressure with a big Dryad / Goyf.

If you are in this board dominant position, you really don't care to let a 2/2 body without ability resolve.

But my build with 8 blast, 11 creatures and 2 Stifle is probably the reason why I choose this way to beat goblins.

I fixed your post before because I know English is not your first language. I fixed it this time, because I'm already editing your post. Next time, please utilize proper spelling and punctuation, or I'll begin issuing infractions. Please review the rules of this forum.

~ Nightmare

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

You only need one creature to win, just one. Saying you dislike Counterspell because it doesn't allow you to drop a creature that turn is flawed logic. You can have all 4 tarmogyfs out against goblins and still lose. If you can’t stop certain threats on the stack you’re screwed. Goblins is going to block only what they need to live then they are going to crash in for huge amounts of damage. Then, once they have you on defense they can take their time and wear you down. If you simply answer the SGC or Ringleader with a Counterspell you can save a lot of hassle. Stifle is cute but will never answer the threats in Goblins. Without Counterspell or Predict Goblins will bury you in card advantage.

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What I was saying was, what the hell does Counterspell do against Goblins biggest threats to you? Lackey and Vial. Stifle will ALWAYS stop Ringleader from working, but if they're cheating it into play with Vial or Lackey, Counterspell is garbage and they get an uncounterable Fact or Fiction. I would much much rather deal with the 2/2 Goblin and have a guaranteed way to stop the activation than hold back twice the mana and pray they have a bad draw.

The threat in Goblins is it's ability to come back randomly through silly tricks. Stifle neuters their ability to do that, and let's you play a fair game.

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

What I was saying was, what the hell does Counterspell do against Goblins biggest threats to you?

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What? SCG and Ringleader. At least Counterspell doesnt let those creatures stick around. I remember back in the era of Werebears, a Stifled SCG will still sac Gobs to kill shit. I never like this. At the very least, Counterspell also counters the bigger stuff like Chalice.

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Lackey and Vial. Stifle will ALWAYS stop Ringleader from working, but if they're cheating it into play with Vial or Lackey, Counterspell is garbage and they get an uncounterable Fact or Fiction.

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Then you should've lost if Vial resolves and has 4 counters on it in the first place. Doesnt matter. It'll topdeck the stupidest shit ever and just pump out SCGs, Matrons, and other Ringleaders. In short, your fucked no matter what you do if they have so many outs against you.

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I would much much rather deal with the 2/2 Goblin and have a guaranteed way to stop the activation than hold back twice the mana and pray they have a bad draw.

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When you play Hatfield Thresh, you tend to have more lands out, and more cards in hand. Thansk to 14 1cc cantrips, you can consistently make land drops if you chained cantrips until you feel that making land drops become pointless to your game plan. Besides, you arent going to tap out often as you should unless you cast a cantrip or a threat, but then again, you are playing a deck that specializes in free counters and seeing excess amounts of cards early in the game.

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The threat in Goblins is it's ability to come back randomly through silly tricks. Stifle neuters their ability to do that, and let's you play a fair game.

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Not silly tricks, crazy topdecks and nutty synergy. Stifle doesnt let you play a fair game, Pithing Needle does.

I just want to add a vote for stifle in the main.

Pretty much every matchup that card has a use. And Stifling a fetch is great. Hearing your opponent groan when you stifle his fetch, you know he kept a one land hand and he's fucked.

And I HATE spell snare.

...playing against it, that is. Great card. Good choice. Lots of stuff in the current meta costs 2. Solid choice.

Edit:

I'd probably side it out in the goblins match, circumstances depending, however. Depending on the build, you know? If it is green, i'd leave them in to deal with that pesky son of a bitch hooligan on my needles (set to vial/port) etc.

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Originally Posted by mikekelley

I just want to add a vote for stifle in the main.

Pretty much every matchup that card has a use. And Stifling a fetch is great. Hearing your opponent groan when you stifle his fetch, you know he kept a one land hand and he's fucked.

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Problem is, against decks that are good at drawing/finding land, you'd much rather Counter a threat. Tarmogoyfs are becoming popular, so why dont you try and find ways to win the board domination war?

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And I HATE spell snare.

...playing against it, that is. Great card. Good choice. Lots of stuff in the current meta costs 2. Solid choice.

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In metagames where Goblins doesnt exist, or is in small numbers, I actually believe that Spell Snares are very good, and would more likely run them over Counterspells/Stifles.

I would like to ask has any one used Careful Study in Mental Note slot-s? I mean it is a sorcery, but it digs two cards deep and it gives us 3 cards in yard and lets us get rid of not needed lands in hand. (not very often, but still) Thoughts?

Careful Consideration is blatant Card Disadvantage. Fullstop.

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

Careful Consideration

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I was talking about:
Careful Study (Odyssey)
U, Sorcery
Draw two cards, then discard two cards.
Careful Study

Still.

I think this card was brought up a few pages back. It's a big no. You can oitch dead cards to it, but you shouldn't have dead cards in your hand in the first place with all the library manipulation.

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Originally Posted by luka66_6

I was talking about:
Careful Study (Odyssey)
U, Sorcery
Draw two cards, then discard two cards.
Careful Study

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The major problem with the spell is that it's card disadvantage. After casting it and drawing, you end up with -1 card in hand. That's the absolute last thing you want from your cantrips. Add to that the fact that it's a sorcery, and it's out of the question.

I have been thinking about Mental Note though. I'm playing Mad Zur's build, with Predict, Brainstorm, Portent, and 2 Serum Visions, 2 Tops, and I've joined the rest of the world in replacing Werebear with Goyf. I was wondering if anyone had tested Mental Note alongside Goyf. It seems like it could be pretty intense, although I'm not sure losing selection is worth it.

Yes, I see the error of my way now. (I have read what it has been said about Careful Study in UBW ***** therad) but I would realy like to change Mental Note, because I do not like blind dumps in yard.

Cantrips in my deck:
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
3 Mental Note

Would it be ok to change Mental Note-s in to Serum Visions? I would play 4 of them cutting one of my Daze-s (so I would have 3 of them).

I'd full out go against running less than twelve cantrips. Less than that and you can't reliably hope on getting the lands you need.

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Originally Posted by noobslayer

I'd full out go against running less than twelve cantrips. Less than that and you can't reliably hope on getting the lands you need.

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Well I do run 3x Magma Jet. It is not a cantrip but it helps allot. Thinking of having 4 of them and only 2 fire/ice-s.

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Originally Posted by aTn

This is speculation, not a fact. Liek's record (and my record) against Goblins tend to show your statement is false. (Stifle Ringleader, Stifle Matron doesn't stop card advantage ?!?!?).

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I have been playing thresh/Grow at major tournaments since the Big Arse 2 almost two years ago. I have tested many of the cards that can be used it the deck the same as everyone else. I am not questioning your results so you should not question mine. I am simply stating these facts about the particular card in question:

1. Stifle will never ever generate card advantage against Goblins. By definition any card that stays in play gives you +1 card advantage. Playing it from your hand gives you -1. Therefore, every permanent you play is card parity assuming it stays in play. Stopping the triggers with Stifle generates card advantage for the opponent because they are still left with the 2/2 or 1/1 that can impact the game state.

2. Stifle makes your good matchups better and your bad matchups worse. It is worse against control, artifact based decks with Chalice, decks with big fat, reanimator, and Loam based decks. It is arguably better against TES/Iggy Pop/Belcher/and various other combo decks.


Having a good record is irrelevant to the point, how is Stifle better than Counterspell if it can't actually answer threats?

Well, from now on, Flash is banned, so I'm asking myself why you should run Stifle in the Maindeck?

I don't think it's useful to play Stifle.

Well, "my" buiild looks like this:

// Lands
2 [RAV] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
1 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
3 [FD] Magma Jet
2 [GP] Repeal
4 [OD] Predict
4 [5E] Portent

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
SB: 2 [9E] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

I just play 8 free counters.
Generally, you got 3 free slots which you can change how you like.

In my case, i play 2 Repeals and 1 Shoal. Normally you play 3 Counterspells, but it depends on your Meta. Maybe you can play more Burn or want to maindeck Needles.

I think my build is more independant from Threshold. And some of you should at least test Burning-Tree Shaman before judging him.

But hey, you also got a free choice of what creatures you want to play. Sea Drakes could also be a choice. He has also got synergy with Brainstorm and so on.

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Originally Posted by Adan

Well, from now on, Flash is banned, so I'm asking myself why you should run Stifle in the Maindeck?

I don't think it's useful to play Stifle.

Well, "my" buiild looks like this:

// Lands
2 [RAV] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
1 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
3 [FD] Magma Jet
2 [GP] Repeal
4 [OD] Predict
4 [5E] Portent

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [b] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [b] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
SB: 2 [9E] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

I just play 8 free counters.
Generally, you got 3 free slots which you can change how you like.

In my case, i play 2 Repeals and 1 Shoal. Normally you play 3 Counterspells, but it depends on your Meta. Maybe you can play more Burn or want to maindeck Needles.

I think my build is more independant from Threshold. And some of you should at least test Burning-Tree Shaman before judging him.

But hey, you also got a free choice of what creatures you want to play. Sea Drakes could also be a choice. He has also got synergy with Brainstorm and so on.

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Your build is interesting, has Burning Tree Shaman been good for you? I'm trying to figure out how you support all your 2cc spells with only 8 cantrips and 16 lands, it seems a little on the low side. But then again, I can't say I've ever been balzy enough to try it (16 lands that is).

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

1. Stifle will never ever generate card advantage against Goblins. By definition any card that stays in play gives you +1 card advantage. Playing it from your hand gives you -1. Therefore, every permanent you play is card parity assuming it stays in play. Stopping the triggers with Stifle generates card advantage for the opponent because they are still left with the 2/2 or 1/1 that can impact the game state.

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This is silly. Stifle never generates card advantage. It's a tempo card.

In the past i just loved the Tree Shaman but since I tested Senseis Divining TOp
one time, i just kicked him out!

I have been having much success with UGr Threshold - the only problematic matchup is the Control one. I seem to lose to both Stax and Landstill builds far more often than I win...any advice which cards I could board here (though I am already boarding in eight or nine cards - Needle, Stifle, Counterspell, Grip, Grudge) ?