I'm pretty sure the right way to play this deck is with 20 lands and 4 Shard Volley+ 4 Fireblast...
with this asset it's very easy to have a devastating turn 4
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I'm pretty sure the right way to play this deck is with 20 lands and 4 Shard Volley+ 4 Fireblast...
with this asset it's very easy to have a devastating turn 4
FotBH > Char for the 3cc slot (Personally, I wouldn't run either in my meta) . No self burn while you're racing a deck, and, if you're that worried about hitting creatures, run Flamebreak as your 3cc instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Browbeat is a whole different beast...
Vs. anything except Combo & Lifegain, it's a must counter spell. As I said earlier, we build our decks with redundancy to be able to win with the first 10-12 cards that we see. If an opponent gives us 13-15 cards to work with... GG. They will be overwhelmed either this, or the following turn. Likewise, if an opponent lets a single card (of that 10-12) take 1/4th of their life total... GG (same principle as a PoP for 6). The only "right" choice, for the opponent, is to counter it, and then that's one less counterspell you have to deal with when you attempt to "punch through the wall" to finish them off.
For example:
Turn 1 on the play:
Mountain, Bolt.
Opponent: 17
Cards in hand: 5
Turn 2:
Draw, Mountain, Bolt, Bolt.
Opponent: 11
Cards in hand: 3
Turn 3:
Draw, Mountain, Browbeat...
Opponent: 11
Cards in hand: 2
If it's not countered, do they take 5, go to 6, and hope that you can't deal 6 dmg (with 3 cards in hand, and 3 lands showing) on turn 4? I like those odds.
Maybe they give you the 3 cards. Now you'll start turn 4 with 6 cards in hand, 3 lands in play, and you'll only need to deal 11 dmg. to finish it off. A Fireblast, which you'll likely have (if you didn't already), makes it 3 mana and 5 cards to deal 7 dmg. I like those odds as well.
On the draw it can be even better; when run with Cave-In, it allows for another possible turn 3 win...
Turn 3:
Draw, Mountain, Browbeat...
Opponent: 11
Cards in hand: 3
I've had opponents take 5 (going to 6) while I was holding Fireblast, Cave-In, and a random "red card" as my 3-in-hand. The other option is that you get 7 cards in hand, 3 lands already in play, and only 11 dmg. needed for the turn 4 win.
You can also influence the opponent's decision, with Browbeat, depending on when you play it. If they're at 10+ life they're more likely to take the 5. If they're at 9 (or less) it gets far too dangerous because one of the cards you're holding may be a Fireblast (9 dmg. is a helluva punch for only 2 cards and 3 mana). The ironic part is that if you're not already holding the 'Blast, they're likely going to draw you into one.
For argument's sake, lets substitute FotBH/Char.
Turn 3:
Draw, Mountain, FotBH/Char...
Opponent: 7
Cards in hand: 2 (3 on the draw)
Turn 4 you'll have 3 cards (4 on the draw), and 3 mana to deal 7 dmg. Certainly do-able; however, we still didn't win turn 3, and I like my turn-4-odds a bit more with a resolved Browbeat (regardless of the opponent's choice).
With all of that said, I certainly wouldn't run a full playset of Browbeats, but I have found the combination of 3x Jet/2x Browbeat to be a pretty solid draw/deck-manipulation engine in the past.
If/when I'm running a creature, it's definitely the Fanatic that wins out in my meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
@redmage
You describe the perfect hand with browbeat. But you usually must play a flame rift in the best case or even a magma jet or incinerate in the second turn. With that your opponent starts with 13-15 lifepoints turn 3 when you play browbeat. And even if you have the perfect mana base with 3 lands in play, you aren't used to draw exactly one mountain and 2 bolts.
Maybe you draw 2 bolts and flamebreak/Mogg/Magma Jet/ the second Fireblast? --->in this case you aren't able to deal 13-15 damage turn 4.
Or you draw 2 lands and one bolt? -----> then this was a cantrip for three mana. How good is that?
You can't count on browbeat to net you 1 land and 2 bolts, and even in this case your bolts can be moggs, flamebreaks, magma jets....
I just can laugh on other burn players in the mirror match who play browbeat. I just let them draw 3 cards turn 3 and am watching them being abe to win earliest turn 5.
I think CotV is better than pillar because every deck wich plays tenrills of agony has no big problems with pillar because he goes on 4 life plays tendrills and has nearly full life againQuote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Not really. The "perfect" opening 9 (cards seen by turn 3 on the play) doesn't contain a Browbeat at all; 4x Bolts, 1x 4-for-2, Fireblast, and 3 Mountains = GG turn 3. Personally, I don't think 3 Bolts, in the first 2 turns, is all that rare. On the contrary, I find it happens quite often, and it's that magical "4th Bolt" that can be hard to come by.Quote:
Originally Posted by zander1
Says who? Again, I don't find having 3 bolts, in the first two turns, as being all that uncommon.Quote:
Originally Posted by zander1
Who says someone would have to play a turn 3 Browbeat in that scenerio? Not that it would necessarily be horrible. As I said before, you can help to influence the opponents choice. 10+ life and they'll usually take 5. 9, or less, and you'll likely get to draw 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by zander1
You lost me there. Who said anything about drawing "exactly one mountain and 2 bolts" off the Browbeat? It certainly wasn't me. The only thing I mentioned drawing into was Fireblast. Going from seeing 10-12 cards (1/5th~1/6th of your deck), to seeing 13-15 cards means that you're seeing roughly 1/4th of your deck. Having 4 Fireblasts means you're now more likely to find one (especially if you didn't have one already).Quote:
Originally Posted by zander1
Says who?Quote:
Originally Posted by zander1
"Worst case scenario" (2 dmg. turn 2)
Turn 1 on the play:
Mountain, Bolt.
Opponent: 17
Cards in hand: 5
Turn 2:
Draw, Mountain, Jet (digging for 3rd Land, or bottom-decking the 4th-5th).
Opponent: 15
Cards in hand: 4
Turn 3:
Draw, Mountain, Browbeat...
Opponent: 15
Cards in hand: 3
Odds are pretty good that, if it resolves, they'll take 5 and go to 10 .
Turn 4:
Draw...
Opponent: 10
Cards in hand: 4 (5 on the draw)
Lands in play: 3
An active Fireblast leaves you with 3 mana and 3 cards left to deal 6 dmg. There's quite a few combinations, for those last 3 cards, that could give you a possible win there; even if two of those cards are another Mt. and a second Fireblast.
Maybe, by some odd chance, they actually let you draw off the Browbeat. Now your turn 4 looks like this:
Turn 4:
Draw...
Opponent: 15
Cards in hand: 7 (8 on the draw)
Lands in play: 3
With 7-8 cards in hand you're virtually guaranteed the 4th land drop.
Unless you're playing against Combo, or Lifegain, things still don't look that bad. While it's true, barring a double Fireblast hand, or a really good PoP (possible on the 4th turn), you're probably not going to win turn 4; however, you've now got a full hand of "gas" to play around with.
Go ahead and Flamebreak + Bolt to kill a Goyf. You can afford to play the "Control" role for a bit, or drop some Moggs to chump block and buy you a 5th turn. Admittedly, I do run Cave-In (more "free burn"); so I've got a slight advantage here, but Fireblast, Cave-In + a "red card" leaves things like this:
Turn 4:
Draw, Fireblast, Cave-In + "Red Card"
Opponent: 9
Cards in hand: 4 (5 on the draw)
Lands in play: 2 untapped (+2 mana floating)
There are quite a few ways to deal 9 dmg. with 4-5 cards in hand, and 4 mana available. Remember, you've only played 1 Bolt (turn 1) this game; so chances are good that you've got one or two more, in hand, by turn 4, and heaven forbid they've popped a fetchland or two by now.
Now compare the dreaded "2nd turn Jet" (2 dmg.) with Char/FotBH...
Turn 3:
Draw, Mountain, Char/FotBH.
Opponent: 11
Cards in hand: 3
Turn 4:
Draw...
Opponent: 11
Cards in hand: 4 (5 on the draw)
Lands in play: 3
Vs. Browbeat, turn 3, with a "take 5":
Turn 4:
Draw...
Opponent: 10
Cards in hand: 4 (5 on the draw)
Lands in play: 3
Or Browbeat, turn 3, with a "Draw 3":
Turn 4:
Draw...
Opponent: 15
Cards in hand: 7 (8 on the draw)
Lands in play: 3 (+1 you can likely play from your hand)
If the opponent "took 5", you're clearly better off with browbeat by a nose. If they let you draw it's a tough call; you've got a full hand, and mana, to play with, but the real issue is that the turn 2 Jet has already locked you into a turn 4-5 win at the earliest. In exchange the Jet should have dug to something "good" to help you along. I still believe that Jet is a part of Burn's "Control suite", but with a full grip you should be able to afford to play the control role for a turn (or two) while you finish them off.
So it's Browbeat's fault if you get mana flooded? Come on, you can't blame Browbeat for that. Are you saying that you'd be any better off if you just drew Mountain Mountain on turns 4 and 5 (and had to wait till turn 6 to get the bolt)?Quote:
Originally Posted by zander1
Again, you're building a Straw Man here. No one said that you have to count on Browbeat to "net you 1 land and 2 bolts" except you.Quote:
Originally Posted by zander1
While it doesn't necessarily "shine" in the mirror match (how common is the mirror in your meta?), I can't say that it's ever lost me a mirror. Your notion of "being abe to win earliest turn 5" is quite skewed. Most often, it solidifies a turn 4 win. On the draw, it also opens up possible turn 3 wins in my build (with Cave-In, or through their own Fetch dmg.).Quote:
Originally Posted by zander1
Browbeat is good or bad depending on your meta... If you are in an environment with slower, control-based decks such as Pox, Browbeat is perfectly fine. However, if you are piled up with decks like Ichorid, TES, and even Goblins... not so good.
Browbeat offers consistency, but the tradeoff is tempo and fundamental turn kills. It shifts you back a solid turn, but enhances your chance of that fundamental kill on that turn, so... your fundamental kill turn becomes turn 4-6 instead of 3-5 depending on your draw. It is not a bad card... but it has to be played in the right environment. In the typical Thresh/Goblins setup (i.e. 'regular' Legacy meta), I'd say its bad. It gives your opponents' Goyf/Mongeese one more turn to clean your clock... They fundamentally build up their aggro quickly while burn decks have static damage and that one turn can heavily swing the tide. However, if you are in a different meta, analyze it for that fundamental turn factor. How fast do they kill? If it's at least turn 4-5, Browbeat away. Chances are, though... it isn't.
In which case I'd rather use Char or FotBH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilettante
Quote:
Originally Posted by redmage
I will be thesting the deck with no fetch's or Caves for a little while to see what happens. The CIPT is a big deal when it matters, but most of the time you don't have to play them for mana and can just cycle them.
Well, talking about Shard Volley, I've been goldfishing and testing some of the builds of this topic, including those with 20 lands and 4 shard Volley and I must say that Shard Volley and Fireblast doesn't conflict very often if you run the right amount of lands to support it.
Actually, the main problem with Shard Volley is that doen't work very well with 3cc burn spells such as Char and Flames of the Blood Hand. This deck can easily drop 3 lands but it will be the average mana you will have in the first 4-5 turns. In that situation, saccing a land to Shard Volley has made me spent turns keeping 3cc spells in hand and this is an awful situation for a Burn deck. So in conclussion I think Shard Volley is only playable as a 3-4of in lists with a low curve and creatures. Anyway it isn't very impressive and 3cc burn is very useful under a CB lock.
When I play burn my usual win ratio is on turn 4, except in special cases.
First turn:
Mountain Bolt/lightning/rift bolt/lava spike
turn 2:
Mountain 2 more 1 mana for 3 damage, or a flame rift
turn 3:
Mountain(usually) 2 more burns/another flame rift(possible on this turn)
turn 4:
burn/fireblast
Shard Volley doesn't conflict with Fireblast.
If you see less than 3 lands, you will be slow but have enough other Burn to get the job done; a blank matters little.
If you see 3 lands, Shard Volley + Fireblast is no problem at all.
If you see 4+ lands and two Fireblasts, you have a lot of free damage and can probably afford a blank... not to mention that the problem goes away if you draw another land (which would otherwise be useless).
For this reason, adjusting the land count to accomodate it makes little sense.
***
The problem is that it is a plain bad card. It's a 1-drop you won't want to cast in the early game because it stunts your development. Burn needs to be able to kill on ~9 total mana, because you can't count on a 4th land on turn 4 even if you increase the number of lands. Under this restriction, Shard Volley is basically a finisher, making it conflict with 3-mana spells as godryk pointed out very well.
This is a problem that won't go away by adding more lands.
Shard Volley might have a place in a build with a very low curve thinned out by Baubles/Wraiths and with Cave-In, but that's an approach I consider intriniscally flawed; Burn needs the ability to play Control if needed and trading card efficiency for mana efficiency takes that away. Before I consider that, I'd ditch Burn and play Combo.
***
Apparently, most people love some 3-mana card in Burn apart from Rift Bolt and Flamebreak but can't agree on which one... mine is Pulse of the Forge, for the inevitability. Recurring damage can turn Burn into a control deck with literally twice as many answers as an opponent has threats, and Pulse is pretty much the only one that is efficient enough as straight burn to not hurt our chances of a turn 4 kill.
Is Burn meant to play control? Heck no, not if it can avoid it. But the ability to do so effectively is nice considering that the sacrifice in speed is barely perceptible.
I don't know if I'm sold on the Forgotten Cave. You need Mountains for Fireblast and even though cycling is nice, realistically you want a first turn play. It just might negate that.
I personally dont use forgotten cave, because, while the cyclying is nice, the land itself isnt that good, coming in to play tapped is BAD, and you still have the :r: to worry about to cycle it. So if ur opening hand has only that, then your alrdy in some deep trouble, so, I personally dont run it, i'd rather use like street wraith or baubles myself.
Hi, first post. The actual deck i play in real is burn so i was looking for some advice. Next week is the first actual legacy tournament ive have ever gone to and the person i am going with pointed me to here. I mostly got the maindeck right but i was wondering one thing, what is the right number of lands to run if i am trying to support 4 fireblasts and 2 shard volleys. Also, since i dont know the legacy meta very well I was hoping someone could help me out with building a sideboard. Here is the list i run:
4 Lightning bolt
4 Chain lightning
4 lava spike
4 rift bolt
2 shard volley
4 Price of progress
11 mountain
4 Bloodstained mire
4 Wooded foothills
3 flamebrake
4 magma jet
4 Fireblast
4 mogg fanatic
4 flame rift
When i was playing my friend, he replaced 8 mountains with 8 fetches and they realy helped as i have always thought drawing lands was the worst thing you could do with this deck. Does my maindeck look okay, and also could someone help me with a sideboard.
@ Inferno
First off, Welcome to The Source!
Your list looks fine, I would only change a couple of things. 19 land is a good number, remember that you can sac any land to Shard Volley so you don't always have to fetch. I would run Barbarian Ring, it's a great extra source of damage, 2 is a good number. I have listed the changes I would make below.
4 Lightning bolt
4 Chain lightning
4 lava spike
4 rift bolt
2 shard volley
4 Price of progress
4 magma jet
4 Fireblast
4 Keldon Marauders -4 Mogg Fanatic
4 flame rift
3 Flamebreak
10 mountain -1 Mountain
3 Bloodstained mire -1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded foothills
2 Barbarian Ring
As for a sideboard, you can start with the basics. You need to Run Shattering Spree to deal with Chalice and Sulfuric Vortex to deal with life gain. Tormods Crypt is a good choice for graveyard hate and Pyrostatic Pillar is nice to deal with ETW based combo decks. I run Pyroclasm, it kills ETW tokens and heps with goblins. so give this a try:
4 Blood Moon
3 Shattering Spree
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Pyroclasm
2 Tormod's Crypt
Blood Moon is a great answer to a lot of the tier 1 and 2 decks in the format. I would run it over Magus of the Moon because it's harder to deal with, they can't just float a white and Swords it. Hope this helps!!!
Welcome to the Source.
Your deck is quite similar to the one I run. So, what I would change and why..
4 Lightning bolt - good
4 Chain lightning - good
4 lava spike - good
4 rift bolt - good
2 shard volley - im still debating these but its pretty decent
4 Price of progress - good
11 mountain - good
4 Bloodstained mire
4 Wooded foothills - I dont run dual and fetches mostly for the sake of price.
3 flamebrake - I personally sideboard because I mostly end up fighting stax and thresh
4 magma jet - good
4 Fireblast - good
4 mogg fanatic - I run Keldon Marauders over it as its a 2 mana def 2 damage and possible 5 or +3 life.
4 flame rift - good
I have umm Mishra's Baubles in just for draw, but im considering taking it out becuz it buffs tarmogoyf, and I also currently have in Incinerate, but those will be coming out soon.
BTW, go with 18 or 19 lands. probly 2 barbarian rings good for that and late game damage
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehunter820
So basically the list I just posted?
More or less, I was intending to add emphasis on the fact that I wouldnt run duals or fetches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacearuse
Thats fine, the deck only runs fetch's to thin out the lad anyway. I have tried running some Taigas to have access to Krosan Grip in the SB, I found that it's not really necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by thehunter820
The only problem I see with the suggestions that Sac made are that you already play 4 MD PoP, so Blood Moon isn't going to be as effective, because they will be gettings basics anyway. I also never really liked Blood Moon in this deck because it costs 3, and doesn't help you win the game outright. For those reasons, I wouldn't run it in the board. I might suggest:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar (should be 4 even if you run Blood Moon, it's your only out against combo
3 Shattering Spree
2 Pyroclasm (You already have FB)
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 REB (it's always nice to counter blue shit)
I think the most important change is upping the Pillar and Crypt counts. The decks you will want them against are combo and Icharid respectively. Pillar needs to be down as close to turn 2 as possible to ensure a win in the combo match. Having 4 allows a much better chance of this than 3. It can also come in against Control matches, as you don't have to worry about their clock, and it maked every spell deal damage, countered or not. You want Crypt turn 1 against Ichorid, or else it's a race you might not win. It is less effective against other matchups, that's why it's only a 3-of. Clasm comes in against them too, albeit less effective.
If you do want to run Blood Moon I would do it as a 3 of, cutting REB from the board I suggested. GL and have fun!