I am surprised that snuff out has not been mentioned before. it seems like a good fit in this deck tempo oriented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
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I am surprised that snuff out has not been mentioned before. it seems like a good fit in this deck tempo oriented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
You'd be better off running Smother it's stronger with CB and I would much rather pay the two mana as oposed to 4 life. Also what does Snuff Out kill you would see often you couldn't kill with Smother?Quote:
Originally Posted by Maagler
Im not saying the deck needs to cut all the slow cards. Just because Countertop combo and Trinket toolbox are slow doesn't mean they aren't practically designed for us. I only suggested taking out Standstill and then probably the Factories. If Landstill is a big part of your meta play your factories! Standstill is awfull against Landstill, I hope everyone realizes that but here's a reminder. They have things like Decree and a much better late game. Some versions even run more than 4 man lands. They have no problem letting it resolve and not dying.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
You'd still have a great matchup against them. If you up your Trickbind count you practically have uncounterable noughts, you have Wastelands and Stifles which are amazing early game disruption.
While Standstill does draw 3 cards for :1::u: at sorcery speed, and that is still a good thing in this format, Standstill demands more focus on it rather than just being a support card in a deck. We dont have Decree, Crucible, 6 manlands, Swords to Plowshares, or Deed to match its synergy.
Losing Standstill isn't a big deal against discard decks because Standstill is the first thing to go through hand disrupton normally. (against good players) You still have Force, Daze, Brainstorm, Counterbalance, and Top to survive discard. I think black hand disruption matchups are one of the best matchups for blue decks designed like these. Especially since goyf joined the game.
I made three seperate well defined points as to why removing Standstill is a positive change for the deck. Rather than just repeat yourselves over and over about it not being a good idea, look back and contest each point I made.
I'm not trying to fix what isn't broken, Im trying to enhance it. Whats the point of keeping a stagant development. When your deck doesn't have any prosperity it gets meta gamed against and falls out of reign. It happened to Landstill back in the day and it's happening to Goblins now.
Adding more Trickbinds to win more games against blue decks is good.
Adding more Spellsnares to combat other Standstills, Goyfs, Counterbalances, and Painters Servants is a good thing.
Being able to comfortable play four Wastelands and splash colors is amazing.
Cutting cards that influence a late game is a solid move.
I'm not trying to create a totally different deck so lay off the Dreaded Fish nonsense. I think the reason your so opposed to this change is because you created it can called it DreadStill. Keep your rite of claim, who cares what the deck is refered to.
Refer to it as the Cancer of the Format for all I care.
the only reason I am considering snuff out is because it is free and allows you to get a tempo advantage. The only thing that we could no longer kill that has any significance is dark confidant. The things that snuff out can kill that smoother cant include, pit dragon, exalted angel, arc-slogger, anything else that fits into largecreature.deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roodmistah
there is a good side to the creatures it can kill and a bad side. first off the creatures die (good side) were before we had little answer to a hellbent dragon. sencond is that all the creatures that i mentioned come from stompy builds which may include trisphere. trinisphere means that your snuff outs are no longer free.
on second though the only creature that is ever played out of stompy decks is goyf. so the only reason that you would want snuff out is if you want your deck to be more tempo oriented and not so controlling.
A lot of the suggestions for new cards are actually pulling the deck away from its controlling core into a more tempo oriented dreaded fish style deck. suggestions for the removal of standtstill are pulling the deck away from its ability to play as either a control deck or ball to the walls dreadnought combo.
Has anyone considered Duress or Thoughtseize for the black splash?
They could serve the same role as Meddlig Mage: Additional hate vs combo and a way to get around Krosan Grip. This, without the weakness of being a creature.
I'll definitely test them on the next occasion (which, sadly, could not come for a long time).
The deck would have Daze, FoW, and Spell Snare as well as continue running Countertop combo. The deck loses no control when removing Standstill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maagler
It loses pacifism.
So what you are basically saying is that standstill should be taken out of the deck because it has a bad match up against landstill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
there is a reason that they discard standstill first: they don't want to see it hit play. why would we take out a card that they would hate to play against?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Ok so lets say we do take out the stanstills, what would we be putting in their place? we could put in trickbinds. :rolleyes: just what we want to see our 4th trickbind of the game.
IMO standstill complements the deck perfectly with its ability to get ahead quickly, by ensuring that the deck stays in the lead. There are few greater plays than dropping a nought with a standstill backup.
Also if you take a look at my build that I posted earlier you can see that I went for a more landstill approach including in the deck CoW main, hoofprints of stag main, and StPS in side. all of these cards complement standstill very well.
I for one don't give a crap about the name of the deck. but there is a reason it is called dreadstill, and its not because we are running extra trickbinds in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
No Im not saying Standstill needs to come out because its bad against Landstill. I was just making note that it is since Hamma said you'd weaken your Landstill matchup taking it out. Which doesn't make sense since they love to operate with anyones Standstill out. Leaving in your Factories if you suspect Landstill meta is a fine choice still. It still helps you eat Warren's Weirdings as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maagler
Discard decks take the Standstill from a strategical standpoint, not because its the best card in your hand. The point is mute.
Three Trickbinds would be nice if your meta has alot of blue control decks to help sneak nought into play through counters. Its also great against massive fetchlands and Deeds.
The most important changes would be increasing the number of Goyfs, Dazes, and Spell Snares. I think playing four of each will not only help the decks overall consistancy but help the mirror by giving you the most counterspells and threats.
A greater play than nought w/ standstill is nought w/ counterbalance. You only normally play him with CB or massive counters. If your dropping Standstill when you already have nought in play that's overextending. They could StP or Grip your nought and leave the board clean when it resolves. On the otherhand if you have protection for it you were already winning.
I do see how your build supports Standstill more which is probably why your more happy with it. My comments are in regards to the original builds. Or should I say more modern and commonly agreed upon list. Les not forget I also had to push and shove for the inclusion of goyf to the deck.
That definitely depends on the Landstill build you're facing. Dreadstill usually has 4 Factories, 3 Wastelands. Now, UWb Landstill tends to trump this thanks to 4 Factories, 1 Wasteland, 1 Tolaria West, 2-3 Decrees of Justice, and Eternal Dragon to make infinite land drops - especially in the mid-late game, when the latter two become relevant (with a triple-Factory hand, Standstill is still great). But on the other side, many "Landeed" lists have as little as just 4 Factories, so you'd love to stick a Standstill on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Black disruption isn't that bad I suppose. But I don't think it are walkovers. A turn 1 Duress/Thoughtseize can mess up your plan for an early Dreadnought and force you to go control or it can stop your best answer against discard, standstill. The man-lands doesnt work well against some of the bigger beaters of Sui-like decks.
On the other hand if he starts raping your hand, turn 1 and 2, but you can find a Standstill you just nulified his discard. And you can topdeck or cantrip into the combo so that there discard is useless.
I would say it is around 50/50. Remember Sui-black was designed to beat blue control.
CB & Top helps a lot against Duress/Toughtseize/Hymn/Therapy, also Brainstorm can rescue your fast nought hand.
Thats what Im saying. And if you added your own Thoughtseizes in the place of the Standstills you'd be in even better position. Making the mirror match better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch@os
Maybe the best change would be..
-4 Factory
-4 Standstill
+4 U Seas
+4 Thoughtsieze
or..
+3 Thoughtsieze
+1 Goyf
Then you can sideboard E Plague against goblins. A huge help in that matchup. Plague is good against Ichorid as well.
What you end up with is something like the below. Which maybe good in its own right, but takes the deck in a different direction. Aka: Dreaded Fish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
// Lands
3 Island
1 Swamp
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
// Creatures
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
// Enchantments
3 Counterbalance
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
// Artifacts
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
I would rather cut Dreadnoughts from the deck before I'd be willing to make those changes. You're pushing for a more Thresh-like shell which is a great deck in its own right but it deserves an entirely different thread for discussion. The reason this deck has put up such great results has been the power of Standstill and what that card brings to the table. You say your mirror matchup would be stronger losing manlands and Standstills I wonder how. When all your oponent would need to do is stick a Standstill against you they could easily support it as all you'd have is Wastelands to operate under it while they have manlands and wastes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Lets get the thread back on track and not sidetrack into something the deck is not. This standstill argument is getting rather reused and old.
I said you'd improve the mirror by taking out Standstill and leaving in the Factories. You'd have more Spell Snares, Daze, and Goyf, You would have more threats. The more goyf you resolve the more dangerous. Your mirror opponent can't play their standstill if you had one of your goyfs in play. It's not like you can StP it then drop Standstill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roodmistah
I would say the only thing getting old is your ill defense of the card. The decks done just as well as Dreaded Fish because the concept is about a 10 card difference. You can't argue that Dreadstill is only what it is because of Standstill.
I came in 10 at the last Hadley tournament without them. They wouldn't have improved any of the matchups. Standstill doesn't say resolve this and your opponent dies in two turns.
Your only defense for the card is still..
"It draws three cards for 2 mana at sorcery speed."
You can't really use that same defense to counteract every point I made one why the card can be cut.
And we have WON major tournaments with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
I can't see this text on Spell Snare or Trickbind either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Bane,
If you're playing manlands and wastelands/Island, how are you not playing Standstill considering how easily you could abuse this card? I'd take Standstill over Goyf and Daze any day of the week. They can't drop a Standstill if you have a goyf in play? U/W Dreadstill can quite easily, they run StP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
I can agree on Standstill isn't all that makes Dreadstill. Just like it doesn't make Landstill either. It's there to simple garuntee pure card advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16367 the list you played when you ran Standstills. Seems like you did alot better then 10th to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
I'm not I'm looking at the results of which decks have been doing the best and a large majority run 4x Standstills. That's why the deck is called Dreadstill and not Dreaded Fish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Ok so I have been reading through the posts and I have decided we need to come to a conclusion. When does a deck stop being a Dreadstill deck and become a Deadedfish deck? Looking through a lot of Dreadedfish deck lists and I have found many of the have the same core features as Dreadstill, and some have all the components of Dreadstill minus the standstills.
So that raises the question: if you take out standstills from the deck does that make the deck a dreaded fish deck?
If so I believe the discussion of taking out the standstills from the deck should not be in this thread, because then you are debating which deck is better and not developing the existing Dreadstill archetype.
Another point of concern that i have is that the Dreadedfish decks vary significantly in main decked cards and colors. This allows for more interpretation in that decks field, so technically dreadstill could be another dreaded fish variant.
Not that the deck name means anything to me because all I am interested in is the most powerful deck list. But the bitching and moaning about whether we should take out standstill from the deck should stop, especially if it means we are not talking about the same deck anymore.
Right. Dreadstill without Standstill is just, well, Dread - and that never sees play.
Just start a new thread if you want to discuss other decklists using Dreadnought-Stifle.
On a sidenote, UW Dreadstill is very solid for me, especially MD Oblivion Rings. Has anybody tried that out?
My friend and I came up with a Dreadstill list and tested it out in a small tournament and it did horrible, so I made some changes. I believe I have worked out the problems and so far it seems to work good now. Here's the list:
4 Dreadnought
1 Hoofprints of the Stag
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Trickbind
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tundra
1 Plains
5 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
SB:
1 Serenity
3 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing needle
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Propaganda
The toolbox of artifacts and enchantments is amazing. It gives the deck many options and outs in so many places.