Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
I dont think Dust Bowl would be very good with Life from the Loam. The fact that you cant get around Standstill and disrupt people kinda ticks me off. The LftL is better off being a ETutor.
I actually like LftL with dustbowl mainly since you don't have to sacrifice itself for obvious utility against the opposition. I also like the redundancy that loam acknowledges mainly since it's resilient to countermagic and other form of disruption. But then again I include a singleton crucible of worlds as well. This topic should probably be discussed further in the alternative landstill thread mainly because I am referring to a 4 color build I have been working on. Where recurring lands becomes more prominant especially for oppositional generic disruption/utility(example: stifle and wasteland).
However, you stated a relevant reason with crucible operating under a standstill. This is justifiable of course since breaking your own draw engine can be an oxymoron.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Hello with respect the list I posted UI refer to:
4 Swords to plowshares
4 counterbalance
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
2 Semseis d.t
1 scroll Rack
1 Moat
1 Humility
1 E.Explosives
1 Pithin nedle
1 Oblivion ring
1 Oblivion Stone
2 eternal dragon
2 standstill
3 Enlitghned tutor
1 crucible of worlds.
Lands:
4 Islands
2 plain
1 academy ruins
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 Tundra
3 wasteland
3 faerie conclave
I ve been playin several games with it and I find several problems I'll expose:
1)I most of the times loose vs decks which carry counterbalance, its true if you dont have FoW you'll losoe allways to a RESOLVED opposing counterbanace.
2)I supposed to win stablishing some kinf of lock via : moat- hu,milty in order to win at least vs decks of creatures.
3) My main and almost lonely win cond if the flying land creature Faerie conclave, wich is too slow: I mean I feel comforatble starting to attcck with at least 7 lands in play ... not productive I need 10m more turns to winĦĦ
4) I thouth that the hu,mulity-moat locks didnt affect to conclave and you know what? true its a 2/1 body but LOOSES fliyng.
NOT problems:
1) O-Stone is great : iis equalityly as fadst as N.Disk ena makes our permanents stay in table and we in this deck have a lot
2)definately S.Rack > S.D.Top in synergy with c.b
3) with this deck having been confectionated to get the most of the great card c.b I even have won to a survival deck.
CONCLUSIONS:
1)we need something vs opposin c.b: snares is the main option
2) Turning the deck to a U/B/W version gwould give us B.Blossom and exytripate mainly.
3) we have to chose between humility and moat at least we change the win condition. I opted for the 2nd option . I found this list wich did inspire to create the following deck;
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=5994
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
4) I thouth that the hu,mulity-moat locks didnt affect to conclave and you know what? true its a 2/1 body but LOOSES fliyng.
That's not correct. With Humility in play, each activation of Conclave will set a new timestamp, thus making it a 2/1 creature AND granting it flying.
The only way Conclave won't have flying is if it's activated and Humility enters play after that.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taurelin
That's not correct. With Humility in play, each activation of Conclave will set a new timestamp, thus making it a 2/1 creature AND granting it flying.
The only way Conclave won't have flying is if it's activated and Humility enters play after that.
Right, to be more detailed, when two continuous effect interact on the same layer the one which predominates on the other is the newest on timestamp order, so:
here the "flying ability" is granted to conclave on layer 5
humility modifies that on layer 5, removing all abilities,
BUT, the timestamp order allows conclave to have the "flying ability" overwriting the humility effect on the same layer.
THEN conclave becomes a 2/1 (instead of 1/1), this is due to the interaction of 2 effect on the same layer (6b), and thus timestamp is applied.
In conclusion, if you activate conclave, when humility is in play ALREADY (even if you didn't play it in the same turn), you'll have a 2/1 beater with flying.
Nice, isn't it?
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Just wanted to keep people informed: I played my newest list (2 Ponder, 1 Enlightened Tutor, 3 Counterspell, 3 Factory) at yesterday's Hassloch event and finished with a horrible 3-2-1 record.
I played against Vaka Pox (2:1), Burn (2:0), TES (2:1), NQS feat. Stiflenought + FEB packages (1:1), Aggro Loam (0:2) and Ugb Tempo Thrash (0:2 - wtf. This should really not happen), in this order.
What really annoyed me all day long was how incredibly clunky the list still is despite all my recent changes - I just can't figure how people can get away with playing Deed/Fact/Oblivion Stone when already my rather streamlined build has trouble with its own Curve.
As for the positives: Ponder was the second best card in the deck all day long (right after Brainstorm) and deserves to be more than a 2off.
Changes after the event:
-2 Couterspell
+2 Spell Snare
More copies of Counterspell got the axe because they were horrible all day long (again) - they are terribly slow, especially in the face of Daze and Wasteland and never really feel strong enough as they will trade with something as expensive as themselves most of the time.
I'm currently trying some Spell Snares in the Counterspell slot and they are pretty decent taking care of almost everything Counterspell normally counters at a discount price - you just have to be a little more careful with what to Force as you aren't that flexible with your Permission anymore.
-1 Enlightened Tutor
-1 Decree of Justice
+2 Ponder
Tutor was okay but never really overwhelming - I'll rather take the consistency of Ponder over it: playing more blue cards is always great and a better early-game is more important than the random possibility to tutor up a Crucible of Worlds or to play a more flexible sideboard.
Brehn suggested to cut the Decree which seems reasonable: with 8 cantrips you have a better earlygame than with more (clunky) DoJs while still being able to dig into it whenever you need it.
-1 Wrath of God
+1 Engineered Explosives
This change was basically implemented to have more outs against Chalice and Counterbalance to whom you expose yourself more by playing less clunky stuff. Also, playing less colour intensive spells is always nice considering the horrible manabase.
-1 Plains
+1 Island
This change ensues from the migration towards a more Blue-based maindeck.
The full list I'm going to test/play from now on can be found here.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Here's my latest report.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=10736
@D.I.F.
I liked the inclusion of Ponder. I only ran a single copy [like the coward I am] and was never unpleased to rip it off the top.
So you're upping your Ponder count to 3..sounds OK to me - I think it might be neat to add another Delta for more shuffle effects in that case.
[Side note: Since Ponder is a mana fixer, too I guess 4cc LS might profit from it even more.]
Going down to 1 CS in favor for 3 Spell Snare seems radical to me. I used to play 3 CS, 2 Spell Snare back in the day and was never really too pleased with that split. The overall meta has shifted to a speedier environment so Spellsmare might be a feasible call. I might try a 2-2 split in the near future and see how it flows..
the 4th EE looks reasonable in the face of more 1cc spells that make you more vulerable to CB. Needle on EE will suck even more.
Keep up the good work!
--
@all:
What do you think about Konsultant's latest UWg list?
Ajani...4 Wrath...
I going test his list with the following changes:
MB:
-1 Dragon
+1 Monastery
SB:
-1 Wrath
+1 ?
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18339
Klaus
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Mmmh, I'm wondering if the green splash for krosan grip only is worth of it.
The strange thing I noticed is that cunning wish is missing, so I can't realize how he can get the grip when he needs it, obviously the splash is also for the third e.e. counter, but, imho, the better splash is black, even without wish.
Maybe I'm wrong, surely in his meta he seems to rock...
Besides, I don't like very much ajani, if I picked up a plainswalker I'd choose Garruk without any doubt, this second ability is really too much powerful to be ignored, and even the third ability doesn't cost so much fidelty counters, ajani's third ability isn't as powerful as could seem, mainly because the avatar doesn't have any evasive ability, so, I don't know, to be honest I'd never splash green only for 3 cards which remains 3/60 even post board (with 2/3 wish even 3 instant card could be 5-6/60).
However keep us updated with your tests :wink:
PS: forgive my English :tongue:
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mandalore
Mmmh, I'm wondering if the green splash for krosan grip only is worth of it.
Counterbalance is a painful card to handle. This might be the reasoning.
Quote:
Besides, I don't like very much ajani, if I picked up a plainswalker I'd choose Garruk without any doubt, this second ability is really too much powerful to be ignored, and even the third ability doesn't cost so much fidelty counters, ajani's third ability isn't as powerful as could seem, mainly because the avatar doesn't have any evasive ability, so, I don't know, to be honest I'd never splash green only for 3 cards which remains 3/60 even post board (with 2/3 wish even 3 instant card could be 5-6/60).
However keep us updated with your tests :wink:
The reasons to run Ajani is
1. Within your primary color.
2. Makes Life.
3. Turns innocently cycled for 3 soldier tokens turn into 2/2 one turn, 3/3 the next.
4. Forces them to kill Ajani or else the arrival of the Avatar token will kill in one swing.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I have been testing out the 2 counterspell/3 spell snare permission configuration earlier and I must say DIF landstill has more of a responsive interaction in the early game. This permission configuration also creates more flexbility for brainstorm/ponder to deal with a variety of threats in the early phases as well. With a more general view of course, this flexilibity allows you to play more lenient against decks that can outplay you on early tempo advantage.
Not saying you should always push for the late game but with better cost efficient utility tools you have more freedom to pick and choose your spots. This paradigm overall can make landstill a more consistent deck especially on tight ropes against a influx of opposing odds.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mister Agent
I have been testing out the 2 counterspell/3 spell snare permission configuration earlier and I must say DIF landstill has more of a responsive interaction in the early game. This permission configuration also creates more flexbility for brainstorm/ponder to deal with a variety of threats in the early phases as well. With a more general view of course, this flexilibity allows you to play more lenient against decks that can outplay you on early tempo advantage.
Not saying you should always push for the late game but with better cost efficient utility tools you have more freedom to pick and choose your spots. This paradigm overall can make landstill a more consistent deck especially on tight ropes against a influx of opposing odds.
I still see it as right to run at least 2 Counterspells. Some players will stall Standstill so that when they do decide to break it, you have UU open and you will probably be more than able to counter it without pitching a card to FoW or walk into Daze.
The new list looks like it's better at combating early-mid game; of course, you usually want to move your opponent into late game so you can outplay him. Apparently, DIF's new list doesn't play anything like UW Landstill, but more like the UR Landstill in vintage if you replace "disrupt" with "answer."
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mandalore
Mmmh, I'm wondering if the green splash for krosan grip only is worth of it.
The strange thing I noticed is that cunning wish is missing, so I can't realize how he can get the grip when he needs it, obviously the splash is also for the third e.e. counter, but, imho, the better splash is black, even without wish.
Maybe I'm wrong, surely in his meta he seems to rock...
Besides, I don't like very much ajani, if I picked up a plainswalker I'd choose Garruk without any doubt, this second ability is really too much powerful to be ignored, and even the third ability doesn't cost so much fidelty counters, ajani's third ability isn't as powerful as could seem, mainly because the avatar doesn't have any evasive ability, so, I don't know, to be honest I'd never splash green only for 3 cards which remains 3/60 even post board (with 2/3 wish even 3 instant card could be 5-6/60).
However keep us updated with your tests
The Green splash is definetly worth adding Grip. The Muc match up becomes a joke with them not able to protect Back to Basics and with the surge of Imperial Painter and the Epic Painter in my area Grip has become MVP. The one Grip in the SB obviously wasn't meant to be wished for since I wasn't running Wish but my SB strategy against alot of decks included boarding out the 2 Humility and boarding in the 4th Wrath and 3rd Grip. Mostly if they saw Humility game one and I expected Grip to come in for them I would board out Humility. The other reason for the single Grip in the SB was I hated drawing multiple's game one against decks where it wasn't relevent. Only running 2 MD while having access to the third for games 2 and 3 seems to be working quite well. Muc and Painter are obviously only a couple of reasons to play it, I have always favored Disenchant effects MD for the versitility of MD removal. They are almost never useless and have given me a number of games.
The 3rd color is needed for EE regardless of what color it is, I felt Grip was more relevent than Extirpate and so I switched to Green. I do miss the Extirpate's in the SB against Ichorid and Loam but Grip hits a much broader part of the format and I am running Crypt. I am trying to add Green and Black but I don't know if I can make the Mana Base work in UW/xx.
Regarding Ajani, PLAY THIS CARD. If you are still trying to justify whether or not to run it, it means one thing, you haven't tryed playing it yet. It appears to be only somewhat usefull but this card is game breaking. The avatar token does have evasion in the form of Wrath of God, then make token. Landstill being able to swng for a full 20+ points of damage in one swing without tapping any mana is ridiculous. Your worst case scenario is they keep dropping chump blockers and you don't have STP or EE and they have to deal with an Abyss. The Abyss effect is pretty damn good for Landstill. I have had my avatar's STP'd a few times as well and going to 50+ life has never been bad for me. Let's not forget you can keep making avatar tokens for free over time whitch is exactly what Landstill gives you. You can't run Garruck on 3 sources of Green Mana in the deck and the untapping of 2 lands is irrelevent most of the time unlike the 2 life whitch is almost always relevent. The main power of Ajani lies in the +1+1 counters with vigilance, one factory can swing for 4, soldiers double in power and can still chump block. I can't imagine anybody actually playing Ajani in a few events and being disappointed with it. Ajani gives Landstill the explosive aggro effect that people were looking for by trying to add Goyf to Landstill but Ajani has huge synergy with Wrath of god and still functions well with Humility in play.
I do admitt that I lost to Ichorid and Aggro Loam at worlds and Extirpate would have fixed both those match ups alot but I could have beaten both of them with the cards I played, I am working on getting a build together that can run Grip and Extirpate AND still have a solid Mana Base against non-basic hate. At the moment I am testing some ideas but nothing has been working as good as I would like it to quite yet.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Konsultant: is there any reason not to run Pernicious Deed after you are playing black and green? I'm aware that Wrath would/ could be easier to cast, but if you're already running 4 colors, why not make the manabase less W-heavy and play the superior board sweep?
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
raharu
Konsultant: is there any reason not to run Pernicious Deed after you are playing black and green? I'm aware that Wrath would/ could be easier to cast, but if you're already running 4 colors, why not make the manabase less W-heavy and play the superior board sweep?
Deed isn't superior though. Deed is more susceptible to disruption like Stifle, and makes Blood Moon effects a pain in the ass. Why not stick to WoG which can function under Blood Moon through tight play, I mean WoG is better for you because Landstill's tendencies tend to involve slow-rolling major answers like WoG. Besides that, I have never liked playing more than 4 fetchlands, because I keep hearing stories of Landstill players randomly losing to Thrash randomly. Also, the deck works fine without it the 5th and 6th fetchlands, so whatever.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I presume that is a metagame call and a matter of personal preference. WoG isn't relevant against enchantress, doesn't hit CB, etc., etc.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
raharu
I presume that is a metagame call and a matter of personal preference. WoG isn't relevant against enchantress, doesn't hit CB, etc., etc.
How often do you play against Enchantress in a standard metagame and Krosan Grips/Cunning Wish/EE should already answer Counterbalance.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
How often do you play against Enchantress in a standard metagame and Krosan Grips/Cunning Wish/EE should already answer Counterbalance.
Jitte, Chalices, Blood Moons (although that's seriously not ever going to happen with any amount of frequency), Crubicle of Worlds, sitting EEs, Aether Vials, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Survival of the Fittist, Artifact lands, and WoG doesn't supress man-lands.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
raharu
Jitte, Chalices, Blood Moons (although that's seriously not ever going to happen with any amount of frequency), Crubicle of Worlds, sitting EEs, Aether Vials, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Survival of the Fittist, Artifact lands, and WoG doesn't supress man-lands.
That's a good list of cards. But bastardizing your mana base to fit in non-basics just to combat Stax kind of puzzles me. I may consider it when Blood Moons disappear. The mana base I would run would be
1 Tolaria West
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Eternal Dragon
Which is a fairly stable mana base. The only problem I have with this list isn't Wasteland, it's Blood Moon. When that leaves the format, I'll got back to running Deeds.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
That's a good list of cards. But bastardizing your mana base to fit in non-basics just to combat Stax kind of puzzles me. I may consider it when Blood Moons disappear. The mana base I would run would be
1 Tolaria West
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Eternal Dragon
Which is a fairly stable mana base. The only problem I have with this list isn't Wasteland, it's Blood Moon. When that leaves the format, I'll got back to running Deeds.
Truth. Also, I didn't think that Staxx used most of those cards when I drafted the list :laugh:
Yeah, Moon effects are gay :frown:, not a whole lot to do there... Personally I think that the sweeper depends on the deck's strategy, so I like WoG myself (as it's less mana intensive and doesn't hit CB and whatnot, which I have a tenancy to run in most decks I play with blue sources in them), but I'll readily concede that it's the sweeper of choice, in an ideal setting, but a Moon-infested meta is far from ideal.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
raharu
Truth. Also, I didn't think that Staxx used most of those cards when I drafted the list :laugh:
Yeah, Moon effects are gay :frown:, not a whole lot to do there... Personally I think that the sweeper depends on the deck's strategy, so I like WoG myself (as it's less mana intensive and doesn't hit CB and whatnot, which I have a tenancy to run in most decks I play with blue sources in them), but I'll readily concede that it's the sweeper of choice, in an ideal setting, but a Moon-infested meta is far from ideal.
In Counterbalance based deck, I'd rather have Pernicious Deed because you can just win once you wipe the board clean of pesky cards like AEther Vial and Bitterblossom, so you can safely cast Counterbalance and Top and win.
