Its not out of range, and in fact fits the model more so of uwb wish still. The main argument is if making your opponent discard 2 cards is worth it, or drawing 2 cards is worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
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Its not out of range, and in fact fits the model more so of uwb wish still. The main argument is if making your opponent discard 2 cards is worth it, or drawing 2 cards is worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
I didn't realize it was just WUB (the thread is WUBG and UBG after all so I didn't know there was no green :/).Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
I don't know if 2WUUB is worth the Draw 2, Opp Discards 2, or Disenchant. The flexibility is nice, since it's never truly dead, but why wouldn't you run a couple in the main then?
Against Thresh, I'd imagine that Spark is slightly more difficult to resolve due to it's high cost overall and that CB Thresh builds can contain(not all do) some 4cc cards like Swan or Enforcer. That risk is smaller than plain old Disenchant though.
I'd say that Charm is the better of the two though.
You'd think so, but your not really afraid of daze if you resolve the wish, as they are more then likely going to daze wish itself, and also the cc of seed spark is actually perfect for getting around cb. As I said before the key is the utlility of the spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
is a semi disenchant, card advantage tool better then a more fit cc disenchant with added semi win condition. This is something i'd like der to explain if he could.
-Joel Ferris aka MoSs_BoSs
I've played Landstill with a pretty standard sideboard for some months now with good success. I use this sideboard with a 3 Cunning Wish configuration in maindeck:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Extirpate
1 Slaugther Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Dismantling Blow
Enlightened Tutor: I`ve tried this card, and it seems too slow. The most times when I went for it with Enlightened Tutor was a win-more play.
Slaughter Pact: I use to go for it. It has killed a lot of Tarmogoyfs mainly.
Pulse of the Fields: I can't understand how you can win against Tarmosligh or every kind of burn.dec without this. Also is very good against random aggro losing a little to no lives while waiting for a Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives or Decree of Justice.
Dismantling Blow: I use this over Seed Spark for the 3 casting cost, avoiding the mostly CC of decks packing Counterbalance, but having a reasonable cost. If it would be countered, Cunning Wish would be countered also. The reason against Krosan Grip is the same, dismantling blow doubles like a card advantage spell and it is in the secondary color, and I can go and play it against a Blood Moon with my two basics and Krosan Grip not.
I also think than the good number of Cunning Wishes maindeck is three. Two are too few to quickly find it against the decks where you absolutely needs it like AggroLoam, Ichorid or Burn.
don't know if I agree with cutting ep, and playing 4 BEB in the side, seems a bit much for a couple of matchups, but who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by DuKeLiO
Also dismantling blow is worse then seed spark in the four color model that der run's. I'm dead sure of it. I've played his decks for a long time and I can tell you that I don't change ANYTHING with 4c unless i'm getting absolute results with another thing. Aka top aka 3rd wish aka more hydro but not 4, maybe 2 maybe 3, but you deffinately only need 11 counters against red decks in this format. Enlightened tutor is one of those other cards I would NEVER cut. Since trading it for fof for sb ca its been the best utility spell i've played with. Its often a game breaker when you go t4 eot wish-tutor untap and drop humility on black decks ect.
Mostly the 4 BEB are there to combat Dragon Stompy without weaken the sb against goblins.
Really I haven't tested the Seed Spark, but it was my impresion about it. Probably I will get it a chance next weekend.
The 4th turn Cunning for Enlightened Tutor to drop Humility on turn 5 is for me a win-more play like I said in my previous post.
I'll explain this to you as Der explained to me on aim one day. 4c Landstills current problem is its window of oppritunity to win.... Especially more. I understand that alot of people have no problems winning games based on knowlage of the deck or just random luck of the draw or yeah many different things. But bottom line, Cunning wish needs to have reach, not just mildly ammusing answers. If your in a firm lead and your opponent lands a drop you can't take care of, not only is it important to either bait a wish or resolve it, you have to know what to get and/ or if you need something out of your deck. Landing a standstill/humility/deed/ee or in my case add in 1 of top can be a deffinate game breaker as you only need to get over the hump of casting removing to win the game, once that state is reached you've got about 5-7 turns of clear time before your window starts closing and your card advantage is shot. I would say this clear time is somewhere in the turn 7-12. After that the game really is a who topdecks better, or who has better cards for the long game. Most of the time Landstill can win these battles, but just one random burn spell when you exhausted a counter or one unstoppable juggurnaught can ruin your day. Its that avalibility in giving your opponent time that can be devastating if your not correctly playing your cards. Something you can't really teach and until you lose a game to random shock for each non basic you control x2 at instant speed in the late game you wont understand what i'm talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by DuKeLiO
Also Enlightened tutor may seem win-more, but think of it like this. How SAFE do you feel if you have humility in play and 3-4 cards in hand that have minor relevance. Now take that safeness and double it because you have decree/ swords/ standstill in hand. Its all about putting the game away from their control and keeping them out of that win for as long as you can possibly hold it.
x4 BEB seems fundamentally bad against d stompy. They land a challice for 1 its basicly nullifying every sb option you sided in. I understand that its beb and if they dont land the challice its kind of gg in a small way, but fundamentally 12 counters is just too much, even if the beb is a mini vindicate in like 2 matchups. I would much much rather see a number of different cards in atleast two slots. You have the room and the additional wish, why not increase your board to truly go toolbox wish style of play.
Slaughter pact is really a relentless beating on your opponents ego when it all comes down to it. To an opponent recieving a slaughter pact its flavor text becomes
"See I have an answer for every single card you play and theres nothing you can do about it. All I have to do is wish and it happens. GG noobian :)"
In all seriousness though it stops most of the format just by its non blackness. Of course you have to go for other means against the black based decks, but look at it this way, all of a sudden enlightened tutor against those black based aggressive decks like sui black or b/w pikola I believe its called becomes vital and awesome. Enlightened tutor for humility against these decks becomes THE play. Past that you over extend yourself to get card advantage again and relax as you see wish number 2 for pulse, let them rip your hand apart if they want as you can get most of your win conditions back in someway or another, decree to end the game if needed. But the first four turns are key, and if you can play them correctly the game is over before you said humility FTW.
But on the note of esper charm i'm still not sure. I think seed spark is still better, but I want to make my opponent discard 2 cards sooo badly!
Dragon Stompy has mainly two threats against us: moon effects and chalice at one. The moons effects are the game-winning ones, and I have to deal with it ASAP. Chalice is not so hard threath, beacuse if I survive to the third turn, it is very probable I could play a Pernicious Deed to destroy Chalice and some other threat, play a EE at 0 to get rid of that or play a Cunning for Dismantling Blow to get rid of that. The key in this matchup is survive a few turns dealing with moons, and soon after destroy they with my card advantage and also with their card disadvantage(Chrome Mox, Equipments, Sheeting Song).
Also with the 3 Cunning configuration I need less time to find an answer against a moon in the first game, by fetching Pact, Dismantling Blow or Beb, depending on board state and my manasources, obviously.
Also the Enlightened Tutor play is mostly useful against our better pairings, and I hate to spend sideboard space in these.
When I build my deck I have the goal of not give up any pairing, and have the chance to beat everything. I do not need to feel safe if I am alive in the fourth turn without nothing better to do than spend four mana on tutoring for a enchantment loosing a card in the process.
If you guys that that scared of Moon effects and Chalice for 1, then just play Circle of Protection: Red already. That thrashes Goblins and Aggro Loam...
And doesn't solve Blood Moon. Which Dragon Stompy can just Pithing Needle anyway. And Aggro Loam can ignore with Terravores or just outdo with Seismic Assault (Or by Dreamsing away your mana.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
Blast is the better strategy against all three.
EDIT: To avoid double posting, ignore the nonsequiturness of this. But I'm currently absolutely in love with two maindeck Relic of Progenitus (In non Cunning Wish builds, obviously.) Cantrips, playable off Factory/Monestary mana, and gives me a fighting shot against things like Loam game one. Moderately useful against everything, and oddly hasn't gotten too much in the way of Monestary yet, which was why I originally didn't try it. Still running 2 Extirpates in board though. Will update later.
I find blue blasts more relevant against aggro loam and goblins then Cop: red.
Against aggro loam:
Cop: red just sits on it's butt against devastating dreams and burning wish. Most of the time(unless under relevant circumstances) I find these spells a must counter and blue blasts fits that role perfectly. This is important to note considering both cards synergizes with the rest of the archetype.
Against goblins:
Boarding more answers for a first turn goblin lackey is a good enough reason to run more blue blasts obviously. Also killing a warchief before it becomes a major concern is also relevant. Not to mention that goblin players more then likely will have answers for cop: red postboard. Although, cop: red can force the goblin player to potentially over extend by increasing the assualt count which leads to making your board sweepers time walk agents. Which is a winning strategy but it is not a good idea to always depend on this situational tactic.
I also seen more aggro loam and goblin players board in blood moon effects as well. Which cop: red provides no answer for as previously stated by tacosnape.
Not to mention blasts cost less mana and can be cast off a basic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Agent
Oh yeah and the whole Dragon Stompy MU. BEB is online faster in that MU and can also destroy a magus or blood moon off of a basic.
I don't think the two can even be compared, BEB is just co much better than COP.
You don't say. However, people compare cards to other cards all of the time. Also people compare decks to other decks as well which is one of the reasons why a site like the source exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenger
Obviously, blue blasts is much easier to splash considering landstill is a blue based deck afterall. Also having more spells that can be used as responsive agents to opposing spells is definitely good for a deck like landstill.
Question mainly to Tacosnape, as I'm running his 4c build, I'm building a sb for the tournament of a diverse metagame consisting of
4-5 Threshold
4-5 Burn
2-3 Goblins
1-2 Aggro Loam
3-4 Fast combo (Belcher and alike)
1-2 BW or BWG aggro (pikula/eva etc)
X unknown decks
I'm not really sure what I'm to put in, and if I need to make any changes maindeck.
as of now I'm only sure of 4 BEB 3-4 Meddling Mages. More blasts or COP:Red? Extirpate?
4-5 Burn decks? Jesus. Take the following for that metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Circle of Protection: Red
And for that tournament, change my maindeck to
-1 Extirpate
-1 Life From The Loam
+2 Relic of Progenitus
Mage/Blast/Cop: Red against Burn. Blast/Cop/Plague against Goblins. Relic helps against Threshold. Relic/BEB/Mage allll come in against Aggro Loam. Mage against combo, Relic for Ichorid, BEB for TES or Belcher. And you should do decent against BW aggro-control anyway.
did I miss the discussion on relic being superior to pate? if so inform me. I mean it does kantrip but it does have the negative side effect of ripping your own grave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
There wasn't one. And Extirpate's probably still better. I won't be ditching mine anytime soon. But in that exact metagame he listed? Relic might have the edge, and if nothing else, a huge element of surprise. Keep in mind I've only been testing this a few days and I reserve the right in a week or so to go either "Relic sucks, never play it, here's why" or "Relic >> Extirpate, ditch Pate," but for now I'd say it's pretty close. Also keep in mind my assessments are strictly for non Cunning Wish builds. CW builds should probably stay with Extirpate unquestioningly.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Yes, it rips your own grave, which delays your ability to swing with Monestary. Which is why it probably wouldn't end up being run in a blind metagame unless you switched Monestary out for something else (Treetop Village, Mutavault, whatever.)
Relic's plus side is that if you aren't running Cunning Wish, it gives you a maindeckable yard answer, because it replaces itself if it's useless (At, as you say, the expense of your yard, which is why Loam has to be the other cut for it.) And it's a yard hate weapon that's insanely easy to cast in a 4-color shell. This could easily be 2 maindecked Relics and 2 sideboarded Extirpate, which is the configuration I'm actually trying currently.
has anybody a list of Landstill which kicks on the ass to whatever archetype of counterbalance decks ?
3 DeedQuote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
3 EE
2-3 (xtra) Grips from the board.
should be enough to handle 3Top-4CB.dec
could Anybody post A LIST please?Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus