[Deck] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era

Quote:

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

Countered by Stifle should have read "countered by Stifle/Needle". Lots of Ichy decks do run Needles.

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Which is why that point is pretty much moot; needle hits them both. In game 3, fairie macabre is no longer a surprise. I think crypt is much more powerful, and in testing it was a bitch to play against with ichorid. Especially because ITF can buy enough time with crypt to setup counter/top and academy ruins, which ichorid will not be able to win through. Fairy macabre also does less when it is drawn a couple of turns into the game. Crypt is great no matter when you draw it. ITF wants to play the most powerful cards it has access to.

Additionally, you can recur crypt AND EE off of academy ruins. You need to find both recursion lands to get that going with macabre.

On the discussion of Crypt vs. Macabre:

I was the person who initially told Dave that he was overly concerned about the Ichorid matchup, and was over-boarding for it. He was running 4 Leylines and three Yixlid Jailers at one point. I told him, simply, "With Academy Ruins, Intuition, Force, and Counter-Top all in the deck, Ichorid simply can't protect itself from your Crypts." It's true.

Game 1, you're in for a pretty tough time. However, Game 2 and 3 you board in your 4x BOMB against them. Should they open with Needle, well, you have access to EE, Deed, and Force to stall them and remove the needle. If they don't, they're in for a long ass game, and usually it ends up in your favor. To my knowledge, I've never lost a game against Ichorid where I've opened with an unanswered Crypt. Whether they attempt to play around it or not, the fact is, it's REALLY hard for them to do so. If you can manage to have Ruins online, then the prospect is even more difficult.

I played Etched Oracle and I didn't like it.

I just played it 1 time. The most time i used it for Counterbalance.

I think there are better cards:

Masticore - Against Aggro Decks (Goblins, Wheenies)
Muse Vessel - Against Control. You can steel them some cards until they can remove it. IF they can remove it.

Masticore? That guy's awful. Goblins can deal with him because of Warren Weirding, at least with Oracle you can draw three out of the deal. Plus, I'd much rather focus on getting the other cards that are completely insane against Goblins out first. You know, like Shackles, and Deed. It's a one-of, were you tutoring it up against Goblins?

Also, one time is not a relevant indicator of whether or not a card is good or bad.

Also, Muse Vessel isn't good because of the continuous mana investment. Plus, they're bringing in Grip against you anyway (or some other form of Artifact/Enchantment removal) because of Counterbalance.

Oracle is better because it plays well with both recursion lands and is a reliable way to generate card advantage in the long run.

"one time" is meant, that I played it OUT 1 time.

The Mana investment against Control isn't that relevant. You get a constant 3 Mana Discard and you also can play spells (like Ponder or Brainstorm or Swords against Landstill).

Also Masticore can deal with D&T, other forms of WW.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Windux

"one time" is meant, that I played it OUT 1 time.

The Mana investment against Control isn't that relevant. You get a constant 3 Mana Discard and you also can play spells (like Ponder or Brainstorm or Swords against Landstill).

Also Masticore can deal with D&T, other forms of WW.

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You "played it out" as in you didn't scoop to your opponent, you actually "played it out"?

The mana investment against Control is relevant. If you're going to spend 4 mana on a spell in Legacy, it had better be stellar. You haven't convinced anyone except yourself that Muse Vessel fits that description. Compare it something like Smokestack, which doesn't do anything the first turn, but becomes useful the next turn (or turns) without having to pay single drop of mana. Paying 4 mana for a Disrupting Scepter with a very mana intensive ability seems less than stellar. Did you think you get to play the card for free when you activate the Vessel for :1:?

Speaking of less than stellar, WW and Death & Taxes fit the description of decks that are less than stellar. I would think Swords to Plowshares, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, and Vedalken Shackles are more than enough to put the results of those matches in your favor. What makes you think you need more help against those decks?

Don't forget recurring EE and Tarmogoyf.

This is what I play...
// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [LRW] Forest (2)
2 [4E] Island (1)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [A] Tropical Island
1 [R] Tundra
3 [b] Underground Sea
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [ON] Gigapede
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [TE] Counterspell
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [TE] Intuition
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [b] Swords to Plowshares
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [4E] Nevinyrral's Disk

Do not simply post decklists without content. It is a waste of your and everyone else's time. - Nihil

I've related my thoughts numerous times about cards that I don't think belong in this deck (Gigapede, Shriekmaw, and basic Forest among them, not to mention your awkward sideboard), but your post indicates that you don't really give a fuck.

I'm happy that you play It's the Fear, while I'm unhappy that you've chosen to include poor card choices into it.

I could relate the pages and pages of discussion behind each of these cards and why I think they're poor, but you've given no indication of even caring.

Given your dismissive attitude, I can infer that dropping a list into a thread is something you've done in the past. What is it you hope to achieve by doing so? Engender discussion? Because it sure as fuck doesn't do that. All I can tell you it does with a certainty is to piss me the fuck off.

Angry, raving Deep6er deleted; harsh, straight-talking Deep6er left. We now return you to your regular programming. - Nihil

Dave Gearhart:
I've been reading your thread on and off. I rarely post but I had to now.

Your WAY too stubborn.

You seem extremely close-minded and think your deck is GOD. I believe the main reason why this deck is good is:
A: You've stumbled upon a decent mix of Threshold/Landstill which can dominate the meta-game and
B: Your better at Magic than most on here and people don't understand the deck because they don't play it enough, it's your style not theres and/or they suck at magic.

Just lighten up a little and everyone will be a bit happyier.
I'm not trying to diss you, I like what the deck stands for, just chill out.

P.S.
People do play extirpate, and yes your deck does lose to it.

To deep6er:

Hey, just wanted to let you know that I like your deck lists and gaming concepts. I'm a 4c landstill player and am wondering if you could outline the advantages of ITF over landstill. They play very similar cards but seem to have very different play styles. What are this deck's trouble matchups and how does it deal with them compared to landstill? Is intuition really a better card advantage engine than standstill? It's a good tutor but it looks like you spend three mana and a card to get piles that require you to spend more mana and cards to create what seem to be minor advantages. In spite of this the deck seems to do well. What are your thoughts?

@XSivPSI: Thanks, I always try my best.

@DarkAlucard: But you see, I'm coming from the position of some experience here. I've tested just about every single one of the cards mentioned to some extent, and I know what was bad, and what looked good but was deceptively bad.

Where's the harm in trying to help other people?

Where's the harm in pointing out cards that have already failed?

Where's the harm in doing so in a manner that is guaranteed to get your point across?

Tell me man, where's the harm?

@3Deuce (is your name misspelled on purpose? Not trying to be offensive, but legitimately curious): The advantages of It's the Fear over Landstill are pretty easy to layout, so I'll keep it short and you can feel free to ask for clarification.

1) Counterbalance. That card is nutty.

2) More efficient win conditions. Paying mana to attack with piddly shit dudes is inefficient and bad.

3) Standstill forces you to rely on your opponent, and is dead in some matchups. Intuition is purely focused on your capabilities, and is never dead.

4) It's the Fear wins significantly faster than Landstill.

5) Recursion engines are very strong against quite a few decks in today's metagame.

Just a little note, but Intuition is never card advantage. I got blasted earlier for even saying that the card was "advantage" (what I figured to be a safe blanket term, but hey, what the fuck ever), so I figured I'd make that clear.

Those are my biggest points. There are others. Like having Swords. Swords is fantastic.

Now, some of these points coincide with some things that some Landstill decks have. However, none of them can integrate everything that It's the Fear can do into one tidy package. That's why after playing Landstill extensively, I went on to build and play this deck. I think it's worked out pretty well for me.

EDIT: Also, some more things.

@DarkAlucard: I've never lost to Extirpate. Not one goddamn time. Additionally, I don't know where you're coming up with the "I think my deck is GOD" thing. Seriously. I've recognized my weak matchups (Ichorid, TES, and Dragon Stompy) and I've talked about how to deal with them in various manners while still maintaining the core integrity of the deck that makes it strong against other decks. Never have I claimed to 90% the field.

What I do claim is that I have found a list that works well for me. As evidenced by my tournament successes, it seems to work. I seek to let other people know that it works. I look to help other people avoid the mistakes that I've already made with the deck. So, if that comes across as being "GOD", then you must have held your teachers in high regard. I'm honored to be among such august lineage.

@XSivPSI: I could have been even more rude, but if you noticed, I went into detail in the hopes that you would never do it again. If you'd like, I can just be a complete fucking douchebag to you in the future. No jokes. I could be even worse if you like. That way I can give you a reason to never listen to me. How's that sound?

Thanks for the replies. The spelling '3duece' came from a team I played with in richmond va during the first extended rotation. Three of us including myself ran either 3deuce or janke and we all took almost the same deck to a tournament at the excalibur. The two of us playing 3deuce both misspelled it on our decklists so thats what our team name became.

I see that ITF kills faster and can support countertop with a low curve. I just feel standstill is such a powerful card. It is usually a less-than time walk and less-than ancestral rolled into one card, making it amazing. Also, how devastating do you find a resolved tormod's crypt to be? It doesn't completely wreck you, but it shuts off your tricks and makes your deck vorosh with no standstill and a shakier manabase.

Honestly, not very impressive. If they're bringing in Tormod's Crypts then that's generally a worse sign for them than it is for me.

Quite literally, only four cards in my deck (excluding the Tarmogoyfs) rely on the graveyard in some manner: Life from the Loam, Eternal Witness, Academy Ruins, and Volrath's Stronghold.

Stronghold and Ruins might be shut off by a Crypt, but it's hard to do so consistently. You can stop Loam with a Crypt (unless I have a Top or Brainstorm), and you can activate Crypt with Witness' trigger on the stack. However, that's all pretty bad all told. Wasting a card to deal with something like that seems like it would put you further back than it would me.

I'm assuming you're talking about it from the Landstill perspective, right? What deck would Crypt me? That would matter quite a bit.

Yes, Standstill is good sometimes. Other times it's insane. Additionally, there are times it's poor. It has drawbacks. What I'm trying to get at though, is the fact that Standstill is different from Intuition.

Standstill doesn't fit into It's the Fear. Plus, comparing Intuition to Standstill is a bit hazy. Standstill requires your opponent to do something. There are situations where your opponent does not have to. Alternatively, there are times where your opponent can take advantage of your Standstill.

It's difficult to do that with Intuition. Intuition sets up your game plan for future turns better than Standstill does because it allows you to further your game plan every turn. Standstill doesn't. You get a bonus (a rather large one, I'll admit) at some nebulous, as of yet undetermined, point in the future. That's why I think Standstill would be a poor fit in It's the Fear.

Also, that's a fair origin for a name. I like it. :)

DISCLAIMER: Again Dave, keep in mind this is all my opinion. I say this as a disclaimer because I know the next chunk of this thread is going to be about how my personal choices to a deck you partially created (since its so similar to Intuition Thresh) are completely wrong and I suck as a player/deck builder. A good amount of that is probably going to be further explaining of why Extirpate is terrible. I'm not going to defend anything I've addressed or the decklist I've posted because it's not worth it to me, I like the decklist, and I've not had a problem with it in playtesting. It's not 100% like your list, whatever. I don't like to netdeck until I'm positive a deck is beyond innovation and very few decks are ever able to become that mainstreamed. I've never said your list was bad; I'm assuming you say mine is bad. Whatever.

I like the deck, I usually keep myself informed on this deck because I like the playstyle. Personally I like Intuition Thresh more because I'm more of an aggro/control person than I am a control person, but I still like to play control sometimes and the deck is engineered very well.

I just have some minor things I'd rather see in the deck.

I think basic swamp is 100x better than basic Plains but that's probably because I'm running Thoughtseize and you're not.

I also think the 1-of Wasteland is very powerful. Yea, as a control deck you don't want to miss a land drop every turn because of recurring Wasteland. However, there are times when you can Intuition for Loam/Wasteland/x and just win the game outright. It definitely dominates in the control mirror. As a 1-of, it's not really going to hurt you since it can still just come into play as a land and tap for mana.

I also think 4 Thoughtseize needs to come in here. There's absolutely no reason to not run it. It's 1cc proactive creature removal that can also remove all other types of spells too.

The removal package should be 4 Thoughtseize, 1 Shriekmaw, 3 Swords to Plowshares, 3 Pernicious Deed, 1 Engineered Explosives, and 1 Vedalken Shackles, IMO. I'm not sure what your current list runs.

This is what I use:

U/B/g/w

Lands (20)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland

Creatures (5)
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Shriekmaw

Spells (35)
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
3 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard (15)
1 Plains
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Duress
3 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tombstalker

I'm almost positive my manabase isn't even close to yours.

I've never had a problem with 20 lands. Between 4 Brainstorm and 3 Top, ramping up to 3 mana and finding Intuition/Loam isn't that hard. Even if you don't see either of those cards, 20 lands should still allow the deck to hit 4 lands most of the time, where this deck typically operates. The deck runs alot of low cc stuff, the most expensive being Pernicious Deed and Vedalken Shackles, which aren't even mana intensive. Once you get recur/Countertop shenanigans going on, you obviously want alot more mana. However, you won't get the recur options without Loam almost always, so it's highly irrelevant for recur. CounterTop isn't even that expensive to fund when you aren't manipulating the topdeck with CounterRuins/CounterStronghold.

Maybe this is just me though... no one else seems to share the same opinion.

Anyways, 7 fetches is enough to support having enough in graveyard for Loam as well as shuffling for Top. I cut down on dual lands to add basics, which strengthens the manabase greatly, IMO. Basic swamp lets you cast Thoughtseize, Shriekmaw, and Pernicious Deed and is a strong color to have a basic for. Basic Plains great when you need an answer to a 1st turn Lackey or maybe even a turn 2 Tarmogoyf in some cases but that's only a couple of matchups. Basic Plains comes in from the sideboard for Goblins so it's all good. The deck has 2 natural sources of topdecked green for the basic Forest and 4 Intuitions which give it a total of 6 sources in the deck. That's sufficient for its purpose.

I like Shriekmaw alot more than Etched Oracle because Etched Oracle forces you to have all 4 types of mana to be worth the cc. A 4/4 for 4 win condition isn't bad by any means but I prefer an evasive 3/2. Recurable 1B spot removal with Shriekmaw is more important to me than slow draw 3 for 5. The fact that Shriekmaw costs 4B is pretty cool since it can be put on top of library to via Stronghold to counter a FoW with Counterbalance, which is more relevant against Landstill than 4cc for Counterbalance. The 3/1 split of StP/Shriekmaw works better than 4 Stp IMO and also lessen the burden on white mana. The deck also runs basic Swamp, which makes it safer to cast.

I agree 100% that Tog doesn't belong in here. It's horrible. If the deck could support Gigapede with the manase, I'd run Gigapede. Gigapede smashes face. I understand that the manabase doesn't support it so I run Shriekmaw instead.

As far as my sideboard goes, it's very similar to what I use with U/G/b Intuition Thresh. BEB's answer Burn, Sligh, Goblins, Dragon Stompy, Belcher, so on and so forth so it's a really strong card to have. Duress further improve the burn matchup and combo matchups, as well as alot of other matchups too.

***Extirpate***

...ZOMG...

I've read all over the source where you say Extirpate sucks for whatever number of reasons. Laff. Are you trying to make a hype about it being bad so people stop playing it so it doesn't wreck you? Hell, you don't even run Thoughtseize. You're not always going to get a Counterbalance lock to stop it. Once it resolves, you now have less win conditions and the matchup becomes much harder. You run, what, 3 win conditions? The first Extirpate can tag either Intuition or Goyf.

Extirpate is an extremely powerful card not because it's affect is necessarily the most devastating, but because it is so versatile and cannot be responded to. The ability to Extirpate Loam, Counterspell Burning Wish, and Extirpate Loam completely turns the Aggro Loam matchup around in your favor, which before Extirpate, tore you apart without CounterTop.

It's also really good against Ichorid. Yea, recurring Crypt is really good too. Though usually you're going to Intuition for Loam/Academy Ruins/EE to get that setup. Extirpate hits Bridge from Below and slows them down rediculously. Now they need Narcomoeba and Ichorid beats unless they can Dread Return into a Golgari Grave-Troll before you can Counterspell it. It can also remove Cabal Therapies, which tend to be what rape you if you don't have something relevant before they destroy your hand. A second Extirpate on Ichorid pretty much seals it up, unless you can't handle a couple of 1/1 flyers.

Your right on alot of your criticisms of the card, David. You still fail to address it's pros, which is close-minded. Yes, it does not affect the board state immediately. I can see it being horrible in a deck like R/B/g Goyf Sligh, where you win really fast and the long lasting effects rarely to never effect you. In a control deck, you're going to the lategame. Removing up to 4 copies of a card is pretty awesome, since if it's something that gives you problems, you never have to see it again.

Another thing you don't run is Thoughtseize, which greatly improve the use of Extirpate. Completely removing spells when you know what's in the opponent's hand CAN make it card parity. If your bringing in Duress too, you have 7 ways of knowing what the opponent has before you even cast Extirpate... hell, you can Extirpate the card they discarded if it's devastating enough. Even if it is card disadvantage sometimes, it's no less card disadvantage than Tormod's Crypt and at least it lets you see the opponent's hand unresponded for B. The ability to see the opponent's hand is highly undervalued to you and I don't understand why. In a control deck, knowing the opponent's hand gives you a rediculous advantage. Especially in a large tournament, where you have no clue what your playing when you start game 1, you can grab a Swamp and cast a first turn Thoughtseize. First turn Thoughtseize is even better than first turn Brainstorm sometimes and is far stronger than first turn StP.

Follow Thoughtseize up with a turn 2 Extirpate and the match just got alot easier. Drop CounterTop and proceed to lock the opponent out on turn 3 for the rest of the game. Resolve Intuition EOT on turn 3, gg. G2.

The lone Tombstalker is an alternate win condition should you need one. This deck can support the BB manacost and Tombstalker is highly synergistic with Deed/EE. This deck easily supports the 6 cards in the grave for him and a 5/5 flyer is a really strong win condition. Recurring Tombstalkers lategame are way better than recurring Etched Oracle's, IMO. If you are convinced with Etched Oracle, Tombstalker could easily become that too.

Enjoy, folks.

Etched oracle got more with the deck itself. It's easily recurred with stronghold AND ruins. Its a 4cc for CB. It's CA. It doesn't remove alot of cards in your grave(perhaps needed for goyf/witness & recurring threats) That and it costs BB when you only want to see/need B in the lategame (deed,oracle and stronghold recursion)

I've absolutely fell in love with the deck and haven't found anything I would like to change yet. I bought myself some french disks to try out against DS. and need to test the ichorid matchup aswell. But I do discovered it's strong against landstill because of the lategame recurring power and the early game CB tricks that can protect your fast kill (goyf)

Anyone got some experience to describe how the matchup vs DS goes? What to counter? I myself think its best to stop their beats only so disk got time to do its thing. Only thing is I fear is that DS boarded in needle for explosives and deed. This can also stop disk.

Forgot about Disk. I'll drop the Plains in my sideboard for it. I'll run it as a 1-of for now... I like how BEB is more versatile as far as handling Burn. BEB is better vs Goblins, IMO because you only need to survive the early game and BEB is better vs Lackey than StP for manabase reasons. As a 1-of, Disk is still able to recur via Ruins.

-1 Plains
+1 Nevinyrral's Disk

@Hanni, for the love of God change the 3rd Counterspell into the 4th Swords.

You have 4 Force, 4 Seize, 4 Counterbalance, 2 Counterspell, Wasteland (and to a lesser extent Deed and EE) against Combo decks. If you're not wrecking them with that package, something is wrong. You really want the 4th Swords for any deck involving 20ish or more creatures (Goblins, Stompy decks, Merfolk, some versions of Goyf Sligh, etc).

Also, Duress in your sideboard seems terrible (again, over worried about combo).

Hanni,

If you're just running one LD land in a control deck, Dust Bowl >>>>>> Wasteland. Its just not even close with Loam recursion.

Deep6er,

Finally figured out what was bothering me about this deck, it's Gifts Rock from last extended season - the toolbox + countertop + force. I realize intution doesn't require 4 different same effect cards like gifts does, but I think a slightly more toolboxy approach would be very strong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

Hanni,

If you're just running one LD land in a control deck, Dust Bowl >>>>>> Wasteland. Its just not even close with Loam recursion.

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Your statement doesn't quite hit the nail on the head. Dust Bowl requires 4 mana a turn plus any mana you plan on using for Loam. Wasteland only requires the mana for Loam. Grant Dust Bowl doesn't open you up to Tormod's Crypt, but I don't think that's as large an issue as keeping mana up for other things such as being able to play other spells during your turn. It's worth it to spend :1::g: and a land drop a turn to lock someone out if you're still able to play/activate Deed and ensure they can't wreck you with guys in the meantime. Dust Bowl on the other hand can really only be effective in the extreme end game, where you ultimately want to spend mana winning, not trying to lock them out (resolving an Intuition for Loam + Waste + any other card against a deck like Threshold on turn 3 while you're still able to land Deed/Counterbalance/Goyf/Counterspell/EE/Swords/etc is back breaking and should win you the game with certainty. For Loam + Dust Bowl? Not so much).

If Dust Bowl blew up any land, it would be a different story, and I'm sure it'd be a $10 card or so...