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Im testing a 15 land set-up right now:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
I definitely believe that at least 2 Tarnished Citadels is the right way to go. I hate the damage sometimes too, but it's a necessary evil. On the other hand, I think 3 Citadels might be the threshold for too much damage, which is why Im running Undiscovered Paradise over the 3rd.
I think that Underground Sea would do his work too. Instead of the Paradise i mean. The only thing not to run it is that you can't use it to cast Tribe, Grudge and Firestorm. But the other spells and activated abilities can play/activated by u or b. With the Paradise you're not able to activate Coliseum in the 2nd Turn if you played PImp 1st Turn. With U-Sea you can. You can also cast Breakthrough, Study, PImp and so on.
I'm not a fan of the Paradise...
The fact that you cant cast Tribe, Grudge, Firestorm, and sometimes Ray is EXACTLY the reason why Underground Sea isnt used.
Getting Tribe or Pimp on the field is THE best thing for the deck. Without a rainbow land you can only cast half of those crucial 8 cards. Resolving Tribe or Pimp is far more significant than being able to cast Careful Study or Breakthrough because Tribe and Pimp maintain your dredging while Careful Study and Breakthrough cant sustain you unless you continuously chain into more of them. In games 2 and 3 having both red for Grudge and Firestorm and the W/B for Tribe and Pimp is insanely crucial.
Which of these two hands would you rather have:
Tireless Tribe, Undiscovered Paradise, Cephalid Coliseum, Dredger, Careful Study.
or
Tireless Tribe, Underground Sea, Cephalid Coliseum, Dredger, Careful Study.
You dont want to take chances and rely on the weakest card in the deck to be your only discard outlet.
1. You said the same that i said the post before...
2. I don't play Firestorm.
3. Paradise is definitely bad without Bloodghast.
4. Dredge is playable with u-Sea.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37973
It's not nessessary to play grudge. Unusual, but a nice list!
Well....this is all about LEDless?? >:(
Some considerations about targets...I will not talk about iona and FKZ which wins games alone but about sphinx and E. witness!
Please stop overstime sphixs is good, really good, but E. Witness is insane. Did you noticed that??
It's very versatile since you can choose what retrieve to go off...Breakthrought (awesome), colisseum or even LED (if you have DA in yard or a colisseum + DA, this last one in yard). The only situation where witness is "useless" is when you are manaless (no lands, no LED in play) and you can't go off that turn.
Hmm I'm actually prefering undiscovered paradise right now as the rainbow lands 9-10. The bounce has rarely affected my tempo and really saved me alot of pain when racing. The bounce to hand has also been useful as a discard outlet. It's really useful to bounce it back to hand when you want to pitch something if your initial discard outlet gets forced. Food for thought.
I run 15 lands with 2 Undiscovered Paradise and 1 Tarnished Citadel. Like what ivanpei said, the life is important during a race with aggro.
I have a question regarding my list. I have no maindeck DR targets and a very standard list. Is it better to have 3 DR and 3 Careful Study or 2 DR and 4 Careful Study. I am also running 4 Ichorids but I think I will like to keep them as a 4 of.
I think 2 undiscovered, 1 tarnished is the best option for land configuration too. Ive noticed careful to be a pretty good card though it's not busted nuts like breakthrough. IMO careful 4 is more important than dread 3. I have my 3rd dread in the board along with the targets. Ichorids are the best cut if you are trying to shave for the 15 th land. I haven't had much trouble with mana using 14 lands though. I'll see how the 15 land configuration works.
The only time I struggled with mana with 14 lands is when I'm mulling a lot. I'm often mull down to 5 or something with no lands and can't get my dredgers into the yard. With 15 lands, I mull more aggresively and I seem to get a land and an outlet pretty often when I'm at 5 or even 4 cards sometimes.
I'm still not sold on the 15th land though. I found that what I really wanted was the 13th draw spell. The problem I usually encountered with opening hands was not the lack of land, its the lack of dredger + draw+ discard outlet + land combo. Lets have a look at the breakdown:
Land -14
Discard outlet - 12 (4 Tribe, 4 PImp, 4 Careful)
Draw- 12 (4 Cephalid, 4 Careful, 4 Breakthrough)
Dredgers- 12 (4 Troll, 4 Stinkweed, 4 Thug)
I only keep at least 3 of the 4 above. Usually its Dredger + discard outlet+ land. I love careful because it can dig for dredgers/land (assuming you have cephalid as your only land)/ 2nd draw spell (breakthrough, cephalid). I never dislike seeing a hand with careful. However I think the deck can use a 13th draw spell instead of the 15th land IMO. What do you think is the best? Brainstorm?
Did anyone see the deck that top 16'ed at the Star City games legacy open? It is crazy stuff. I still prefer more conventional builds, but it's interesting to look at nonetheless. I am guessing he is running that weird manabase to make it more wasteland resistant. Hapless Researcher is a cute discard outlet when you don't have any W producing lands. The SB looks really weird with way too many DR targets. I think overall the list seems really wonky and being more wasteland resistant is the only real plus I can see.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=35412
No breakthrough? Now that heresy. I think 5 coloured is seriously the only way to go. Hapless seems too underpowered to me IMO. I much prefer tribe anyday, T1 tribe and pitching my dredger over the first few turns while blocking is very strong. What about brainstorm? I find playing 1/2 brainstorms along side careful, breakthrough and cephalid coliseum seems plausible.
Yeah the lack of breakthrough is very weird. I was thinking in his weird build FoW could be good sideboard tech with the crazy amount of blue cards he is running... But yeah, I don't think the more secure manabase is worth all the sacrifice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
I really do not think that 5 color land is really needed. Basically i'd run down to three colors. Blue black and white. You need the white for tireless tribe. As far as the green and red, how often do you honesly hard cast a Troll or FKZ. These cards aren't really in here to be casted but for Dread Return.
If you want to go down to 3 colors i think its feasible.
If we drop the 5 Colors Lands, how else are we going to fire off Ancient Grudges or Firestorms without G/R. Without it, there's no way to fight the sideboard hate.
re: 14 land: the Cephalid Coliseums are U: Draw three, discard three that sometimes help you play around Daze. They don't cast Imp, Tribe, Grudge, Ray, or Firestorm, and you want to be careful about assuming that you can lean on them for mana.
*Adding Nature's Claim and Ray of Revelation to this list*Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroix
Really, I can at least see why people would want to run a U/B mana base only (tapping lands for mana doesn't always do 1-3 damage and your lands don't die after the 3rd usage). One can use Underground Sea and other duals who provide all colors you need.
This isn't the case with a 3 colored mana base. You will ALWAYS need at least 2 lands in order to have access to all 3 colors. Also, if your opening hand only provides duals themselves but no Fetchies you will almost always not have access to at least one of the 3 colors.
So either stay with 5 colored (which I would strongly advise) or go UB only.
Also, Frogboy is right. One can't just count 4 Coliseum, 4 Cities, 4 Gemstones, 2 Tarnished as 14 lands, because Coliseum can't cast the majority of spells. So those 14 lands are in practice only 10, which is why most people would play the 15th (11th) land over the 13th draw spell. I would even play it over the 12th Dredger.
While the T16 list has a lot of wacky bits, stifle seems like really good sideboard tech, countering Faerie macabre, artifact hate, and all sorts of other random activated abilities.
It's also castable through cephalid coliseum, but you do need to have a mana open....
Seems to me most opponents just wouldn't expect it out of dredge.
For people running 4 Ancient Grudges in the side:
Do you ever feel like 4 is too much sometimes? Because I've been getting stuck with multiple Ancient Grudges and no targets after I blow up their first piece of hate. Maybe 3 would be better?
No 4 is better. The only reason you blew up their first piece of hate is because you ran 4 grudges and saw one early. I'd rather have extra grudges than not have one at all and stare at the Tormod's Crypt that will ruin my day.
I dont' understand why people don't run more lands. Coliseums don't produce non-Blue mana, and this deck needs 15 or 16 lands to cast it's spells. Especially the off-color ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
This is what I'm currently running.
Creature
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
Enchantment
4 Bridge from Below
Sorcery
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
Land
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
Sideboard
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Ray of Revelation
I'm pretty set on the main but the side is questionable to me. This is what I was considering for the sideboard.
-1 Ancestor's Chosen
-1 Sadistic Hypnotist
-4 Ray of Revelation
+1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
+1 Terestadon
+4 Firestorm
I just can't think of a situation where I would board in Ray of Revelation instead of Chain of Vapor? Am I wrong or is this the general consensus?
If they don't have a Crypt aren't you just obliterating them?Quote:
Originally Posted by sa17dk
edit: I board in Ray against Wheel of Sun and Moon. I'm also not real sure why there's an Iona in your board.
This deck usually does well if your opponent doesn't have Crypt. And Ray is not only good against Wheel of Sun and Moon, it also can remove Leyline of the Void. Which can be a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
Along with moat. Seriously, if you aren't running ray of revelation in your SB you are doing something wrong it deserves at least 2 slots. Also blows up troublesome enchantment's and can set back enchantress players a lot if you blow up their enchantress's presence or even better kill confinement then swing FTW.
I thought that we disuss the LED build here. These lists with enormous nummbers of lands xD don't run the diamond.
The other thread is still in the Established Decks forum.
There are two options; we can either just have one Dredge thread in this forum, or we can put both of them in here. We decided not to clutter the forum with two Dredge threads, but if there starts to be a ton of overlap that can changeQuote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
Ok, I understand. I just wanted to ask. So let's move on.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
On that topic, how the heck do those LED lists with only 12 lands expect to be able to cast Putrid Imp consistently off of only 8 black sources? There's only about a 2/3 chance you see one of those in your opening hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
Casting PImp is just one of many ways to get your dredgers to the yard. With LED, you can live with land, draw spell, dredger and LED (play land, play draw spell, in response crack LED and start dredging). Ever since I switched to the LED build I've been less reliant on a resolved PImp/Tribe as a discard outlet compared to when I was using the non-LED build.
I have no idea if my post is way too far down to even be seen, but Iona is the BEST possible target for dread return in the legacy format. Iona = win.
I agree that Iona is an incredibly good card. The question is whether Dredge needs her in order to win. The problem is that the main board is already very tight and we usually won't be able to dedicate too many main deck slots to DR Targets (I think not more than 2). In a metagame with several Lands and Stax I would probably include Iona main, for she is the only way we can win those matchups preboard. Her utility against combo, her independance on Bridges (which is her main selling point over FKZ) and the factz that she just wins against monocolored decks loke Mono Black or Burn are always useful. If the metagame is rather control-heavy and/or contains lots of multicolored decks (Bant, Zoo, etc) I wouldn't play her. Grave Troll will mostly do the same but he is not a dead card in the opening hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by drocker23
What do you think of this (french) list in the U.S.
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Angel of Despair
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Dakmor Salvage
SB: 1 Blazing Archon
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
Why you don't play Bloodghast?
Please give me your comments and your reviews.
We don't play Bloodghast because Ichorid is so much better. Also, running both requires too many slots and will harm the consistency of the deck. Additionally, Bloodghast completely ruins the whole mana base (4 Undiscovered Paradise and 2 Darkmoor Salvage are just so incredibly bad).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozon
This list doesn't play Tireless Tribe and only 8 gold lands (4 of which are Paradises), so the list must be extremely inconsistent.
I tried a non LED bloodghast/ichorid build in the past and it seems to work just fine. I tried it in a 30ish player tourney and I landed 5th place (went 5-1 in the swiss). I'm currently testing a LED based bloodghast/ichorid build and thru various playtest and goldfish sessions (I've been testing it for 3 months now) and a few small tourneys as well and it seems consistent enough (pre and post board). I'm gonna use that build in a major legacy tourney this weekend and see what happens.
EDIT: I forgot to ask, how's the MU against survival decks these days? I've only come across 3 survival decks (2 retainers, 1 vengvine) in the past 4 months but I've lost to all three of them.
Ichorid can return with Bloodghast, but not with Tireless Tribe. Bloodghast's Landfall is just enormous with Undiscovered Paradise and Darkmoor Salvage, its recursive effect, deck depends therefore less Bridge from Below.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
Tireless Tribe is nothing more than a white Putrid Imp bad! This is really poor. You are afraid of taking mulligans?!!
But with only Putrid Imp as your discard outlet, if you mull once or twice, the chances of having land and Imp are pretty low so you can't DDD either at that few cards.
Unmask, lions eye diamond, cabal therapy? Those still make you discard enough usually.
That's terrible. You want to be aiming your Unmask and Cabal Therapy at them. Using them as a discard outlet should only be a last resort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizeri
Ichorid being able to eat Bloodghast is not an argument, as you will never want to remove Ghast for Ichorid, will you? You want to remove creatures, that don't do anything in your graveyard, like Putrid Imps or redundant Dredgers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozon
True, Bloodghast's landfall is enormous with Paradise and Salvage. Maybe you didn't read my post? That's just the point; Paradise and especially Darkmoor Salvage are just crap. And Bloodghast needs them in order to work...
And you have to explain why Bloodghast depends less on Bridges than Ichorid. If you mean the fact that Ichorid dies each turn and makes tokens only if you have Bridges... well that doesn't show that Ichorid is dependant on Bridges, but that it has the bonus to auto activate Bridges each turn if you have some.
Putrid Imps 5-8 is just awesome, not poor. It doubles your chances to have one permanent discard outlet in your opening hand,l which is great. It can't be removed for Ichorid, which is the only real disadvantage in comparison to PImp. But don't overlook Tribes' selling points: It blocks away Tarmogoyfs, KotRs and many other big creatures like a champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozon
Yes, I am. You tell me that you aren't? Mulligaining into oblivion is the most common reason Dredge loses, especially game 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozon