Hymn to tourach is certainly the best discard in the game, but it's not broken in a format where turn one wins are possible. In fact, hymn to tourach is important for keeping black as disruptive as it is, and keeping combo in check.
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Hymn to tourach is certainly the best discard in the game, but it's not broken in a format where turn one wins are possible. In fact, hymn to tourach is important for keeping black as disruptive as it is, and keeping combo in check.
yup. bringing necro into the current legacy will be a hell. not to mention, its going to be four copies in a DECK. *sigh*Quote:
Originally Posted by bracer028
Impossible. Hymn is a balanced card that is exclusive for Black users. If Blue has FOW, then Black has Hymn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scordata
Unbanning Mystical Tutor and Goblin Recruiter would be fine :)
This is me disagreeing. Goblin Recruiter is absolutely insane. It is stone cold nuts in every way and it is precisely the kind of card we should not want in Legacy. First off, let me say, Recruiter takes absolutely forever to resolve. I know there are rules in place to prevent too much time being wasted but Recruiter basically says "Stack your deck" it takes a minute to resolve even if you know exactly what you are doing. Second, oh my god, you get to stack your entire deck!!! It's like 40 Worldly Tutors and a 1/1 for two mana, so nuts. Third, the format is in disarray right now, there is absolutely no reason to unban anything until at least a month after the GP likely more like 3 months. The format needs to settle. Everyone wants to put the nail in the coffin on Goblins and combo, but really it's too early to do anything of the sort. The metagame is heavy in control right now and the more people metagame their decks to beat control the more wide open they leave themselves to Goblins. Let's not forget what happened the last time the meta was this heavy in control (Back when 1.5 became Legacy and separated from Vintage and Survival and Landstill were the decks to beat) goblins was the deck that broke control wide open and ate it alive. Sure this time control has Misstep, but at the same time plenty of good goblins have been printed over the years and it's a deck that still has a lot of powerful plays without Recruiter. I think that regardless of our new counterspell anyone who sleeps on Goblins and thinks they are safe with a control deck because of 4 Missteps is in for a rude awakening.Quote:
Originally Posted by rnightingale
Mystical Tutor will stay banned. They just banned it a year ago so they probably won't even consider an unbanning in the next 2 years.
Mind Twist at this point is nearly safe to unban. My main argument against it is that Mind Twist is a stone cold control breaker that is endlessly splashable and for a while control was just dead regardless and didn't need any more hurdles. I would just hate to see things get to a point where control mirrors come down to Mind Twist resolution, which was the entire reason for it's initial ban.
control decks have so many counters, mind twist wouldn't even matter. and in any other deck, people don't usually pack a full 7 cards in their handsQuote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
That doesn't make Mind Twist any less devastating if they still rape your entire hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by bracer028
The old adage of "Twist break the control mirror" is stupid in a world where JTMS exist. Seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
From today's article about Modern:
http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Ar...g/daily/ld/144
Not sure what to say that hasn't already been said regarding this.Quote:
Data from tournaments held in previous Extended formats showed that Sensei's Divining Top takes too long to play with. When rounds go to time, everyone in the entire tournament has less fun. If Modern ever caught on seriously, we would likely have to ban Top, so we decided to reflect that in this experiment.
Edit: Funny how they mention Legacy in the reasoning for the other banned cards, but not this one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whippoorwill
They won't ban top because it enables Counterbalance, which keeps Storm in check.
Also Top is the only thing that makes Brainstorm look sort of fair. If one gets the axe the other pretty much has to follow. Brainstorm's kind of skirting the edge as it is.
I don't know about you guys but the last two GPs involved:
GP Madrid - Mystical Tutor
GP Columbus - Survival of the Fittest
So what's next?
With this much MM around, should we consider some strong 1-mana cards for unbanning?
The triumvirate of tutors: Mystical, Vampiric, Imperial Seal (not considered for power level reasons, Consultation)
http://static.starcitygames.com/sale...ical_tutor.jpg http://static.starcitygames.com/sale...iric_tutor.jpg http://static.starcitygames.com/sale...erial_seal.jpg
Mystical boost combo and only that (take everything vamp does except LED, no life, pitch to force, does nothing in aggro/control decks), while vampiric at least is usable in rock-like decks for silver bullets, but the instant speed make it too hard to play around. Seal would imho be strong but fine, but it cost way too much (300 dollars and it's usable only as a singleton in Vintage), it would need a massive reprint in some promo deck. This is extremely unlikely since it would probably piss out a lot distributors, so it's out of consideration too imho.
Consultation is not even considered since it has no disadvantage in a format without singletons, instant speed Demonic tutor for B, okay.
Mana acceleration: Mana Vault (not considered for power level reason, Sol Ring, Fastbond)
http://static.starcitygames.com/sale...mana_vault.jpg
The big brother of Grim Monolith. At 1, this would boost artifact decks a lot and make a lot of lists start with:
4 Vault
4 Monolith
4 Keys
However, even like this, i don't think artifact deck would be good in Legacy. They need to be really, really broken (moxen + Workshop level of broken) to be playable (as a common deck, not as a rogue) when you have super strong cheap splashable hate for it.
The real problem is: would it be too good in combo? Probably, probably no. While it's a different format, we can look at Vintage to see what's the hottest thing in storm combo. And there Mana Vault is a highly debated slot. It's usually used when you use multiple FoF/Gift and the likes (so a lot of big colorless sinks), or when you run the tinker-robot plan as an alternate win to increase the artifact count. Cabal ritual is often used in its place. In legacy its biggest assets would be making T1 swamp, T2 AnT possible. I would like it unbanned to see finally more artifacts decks in the format, but it would be probably a tad too good.
WotC inside Joke: Land Tax
http://static.starcitygames.com/sale...H/land_tax.jpg
Too many words have been spent onto this card. This card is probably worse than Loam (Loam is: a lot less conditional, can take any kind of land, it's basically uncounterable, fill your graveyard for more targets, cost 1 more), and Loam while a good card, isn't nowhere near Bannable status.
The "fuck u control": Black Vise, Skullclamp
http://static.starcitygames.com/sale...black_vise.jpg http://static.starcitygames.com/sale...skullclamp.jpg
I'd really, really like to see Vise unbanned to fuck up all this blue and give a big boost to extremely aggressive aggro strategy coupled with mana denial strategy and burn (RDW with 4 vise, 4 waste 4 port, fuck u standstill <3). Sadly, Tomb for double vise T1 on the play is an opening that many players would loathe, and WotC would never unban it because "it's unfun" (because Tomb-> CotV for 1 is fun, really...) and because it make going first a much greater advantage (on the other hand, vise often sucks on the draw). I honestly believe that Vise wouldn't be even that good in this format where you can dump cards so fast if you need to, i'd consider it about as good as vial as an anti-control foil (vial is better after mid game, but it require you to run 20+ creatures and it's slower). Control wouldn't even need to change too many cards to adapt to it (Seal of Primordium/Cleansing are ok, kill equipments, Standstill if dropped first, Factories, dodge MM etc...) Prison is also non-existant in this format, so it's not like we could Vise into sphere ever efficiently with no Workshops/Moxen. That said, my opinion on the card isn't supported by anyone in the northern emisphere, so an unban is just extremely unlikely.
Clamp is just infinite card advantage for creature decks, and would probably kill any form of control in legacy should it ever be unbanned. The power level isn't comparable to Vise imho, this is like ancestral for creature decks. Also, SFM is good enough already.
No. How does Mental Mistep makes Mystical Tutor safe to unban again? You don't really explain how Mental Mistep makes these 1cc cards or the decks that often play them subpar or fair. Did you put any thought beyond "Mistep makes all 1cc cards jank now lol?"Quote:
With this much MM around, should we consider some strong 1-mana cards for unbanning?
Mystical Tutor is still unsafe to ban. It's still dangerous in select combo decks, especially blue combo decks like Hive Mind and Spiral Tide, which are also capable of running Mental Mistep.
Ironically, I think Land Tax might be UNsafe to ban right now, even more so because of Mental Mistep. The metagame has slowed down and control decks are on the rise. Unbanning Land Tax is a matter of bad timing. Too many control decks will start using it and control mirror matches would be a nightmare to play out (or watch).
I do think Mana Vault should be unbanned, but not strictly because of Mental Mistep. Outside of artifact decks, the fast colorless mana it isn't that useful to other combo decks. Belcher? It makes Chrome Mox worse and it doesn't directly cast Empty the Warrens or Burning Wish. Just Charbelcher. While untapping with a ready-to-go Mana Vault make allow some powerful plays like a turn 2 Fact or Fiction in blue control, it's not very degenerate and the fact that the risk of walking right into a counter negates the explosiveness of Vault. In artifact decks, Mana Vault is pretty nasty but it doesn't address the issue that artifact decks can still get their shit wrecked by Energy Flux.
And Skullclamp is still too powerful.
Did you read what i wrote or just answered out of nerdrage? I didn't advocate any of the cards to come off the list except Vise and Tax (and i found both unlikely). I just said that with MM here (most played card at the GP, even more than force and brainstorm), the chance of countering strong 1-mana cards on the play is effectively doubled (4 FoW -> 4 FoW 4 MM) making those cards a lot less "unanswerable". That much is fact, and i see this as the perfect occasion for WotC to unban something since they printed such a strong answer card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
I don't care about your opinions on what should be banned or unbanned. My nerdrage is directed at the fact that you suggested the possibility of unbanning cards because of Mental Mistep's prevalence in the format. Your suggestion is shortsighted. Mental Mistep may be a convenient and efficient answer to Mystical Tutor or Black Vise, but it doesn't make them any less dangerous when they resolve. Mental Mistep is a good card and it gives blue control an advantage against combo and fast aggro decks, but it doesn't kill their existence as shown in the GP day 1 lists. All it does is make the matchups more favorable (but not unstoppable) for blue decks, but unbanning powerful 1 cc cards doesn't balance anything. It just unbalances the scale again. Also, did you stop to consider non-blue decks fighting against Mystical Tutor or Black Vise?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
EDIT: If you aren't advocating any cards other than Land Tax or Black Vise off the ban list, then why are you suggesting that the other cards could be unbanned now?
Because i present point of discussion, pro and cons, to, you know, discuss things and say why or why not a card could be unbanned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
I could just say "fuck you unban this it sucks anyway", but that wouldn't this as constructive.
Mana Vault I think would make MUD decks very consistent to the point that they can lock the game out turn one ~60% of the time if not disrupted. Turn one Lodestone Golem or other sphere effects would may warp the format.
Lock out the game? How so? MUD already has the capabilities to make great turn 1 plays, but they hardly decide whether the game is over or not, especially if one of those sick turn 1 plays involves a summoning-sick Metalworker. Mana Vault drastically improves MUD's mana consistencies but it doesn't hurt its two biggest weakness: 1) finding a bomb and 2) playing through blue or removal, or both (Energy Flux).Quote:
Originally Posted by GradStudentGuy
Because Trinisphere requires an Ancient Tomb land and Mox to come out turn 1 as it stands. Giving it another way to do it with only one card and a regular land ups it's consistency quite a bit.
They can also do Sol Land + Grim Monolith. MUD Decks can easily power a Trinisphere out no problem but they don't run it. I still think Mana Vault is too much for MUD, though I hope the make a version that adds two mana to your mana pool and requires 3 to untap. Kinda like a Sol Ring + Mana Vault hybrid.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahcmai
This is great in theory, but has a couple of big issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahcmai
First, the power level of trinishpere in legacy. Many people forget that trinisphere isn't good in vintage because the curve is low, but because 50% of your mana sources in Vintage are spells. Moxen, crypt, lotus, sol. Imagine a sphere of resistance for lands AND spells. That's what trinisphere is in vintage. In legacy, Trinisphere is still strong due to low curves, but nowhere as good in vintage since we run almost twice as many lands on average. I believe even with more consistent means to play it, it would just go unplayed since the effect isn't as relevant in this format. CotV on 1 is much more relevant in legacy compared to trinishpere, and still chalice aggro isn't a good deck.
Second, the issue of mana artifact vs lands. As many said before me, mana artifact has a fundamental problem. It's mana, but count as a spell. This is especially true of cards like Vault or Monolith with non-untap clause and 1+ mana costs. It's not true of cards like Sol, Crypt or the Moxen, since they require super little-investments, but that's why those cards are broken in the first place. This mean that adding those cards inherently make the deck less consistent in terms of spells to mana ratio. This is not true only if you do a 1for1 swap Monolith->Vault, but you'd think the deck is that much improved by that? I don't think so. The deck still remain horribly inconsistant. I've tried this hypotetical MeandeckMUD list, as i feel it's probably the best artifact deck and the deck that would be most improved by Vault:
Mana: 34 cards, 16 lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
3 Mox Opal
4 Voltaic Key
3 Grim Monolith
4 Mana Vault
4 Metalworker
Spells:
4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Trying some random hands:
-wurmcoil, Lodestone, wasteland, wasteland, lodestone, metalworker, voltaic key -> need the third mana source, mull
- 2vault, key, welder, Wurmcoil, Tomb, Top -> sick hand, you lay all beside welder T1 and you have a Top
- monolith, 2city, crucible,key, wurmcoil,battlesphere -> keep. City + Monolith+Key give u enough to cast battlesphere or wurm on T2 without blowing your own city, meaning a waste isn't autoloss.
- opal, crucible, Great furnace, greaves, Hellkite, Welder, wasteland -> mull. Welder T1 and then nothing
- lodestone, hellkite, welder, city, top, wurmcoil,battlesphere -> mull, nothing castable
- furnace,2city, 2 tomb, worker, wurmcoil-> mull, 5 lands hands with little gas
- 2city, 2furnace,opal,key,tomb->mull, all mana hand
- 2vault, opal, crucible, wurmcoil, kuldotha, battlesphere -> 3 mana but 0 lands, mull
- 2vault,2waste,furnace,key,kuldotha-> risky, you have 6 mana sources and a threat, mull
- kuldotha, 2 metalworker, wasteland, mox diamond,key, engine -> 2 mana but only 1 land, mull
- tomb, waste, top, worker, 2lodestone, forgemaster -> probably keep. You lose if they waste u on T1 however.
Those were my first 11 random hands via cockatrice. If there's a way to load a deck on some site and get random hands, you can see it for yourself. The deck is horribly inconsistent. You can probably improve it by tweaking numbers and all, this was the list on the OP of the MeandeckMUD topic -3 Diamond -1 Monolith +4 Vault (seemed the best exchange to me, 16 lands are no good with diamonds). Problem is you only have 7 red sources like this instead of 10, so maybe it shouldn't run welder. Suggestions are welcome.
You guys obviously didn't ever play Vintage with 4 Trinispheres around did you? Trinisphere is restricted there for a reason. It was ridiculously good. Workshop into Trinisphere was one of the most broken plays ever in Vintage for a bit. It's like a double time walk in most cases. It dominated the hell out of vintage for a bit pushing out just about everything excepting decks like Slaver that had a shot at stopping that first turn play. Either way, it was the main reason for it's restriction. I should know, I played the hell out of that deck. Man, I loved it.
We don't have shops in Legacy, but making it easier to get that little combo off is just nuts. Oddly, it's not as strong in Legacy due to the higher land counts and lack of Moxen, but it's still a double time walk. Definitely not good for the format letting any deck be able to consistently cast it first turn.
When is the next announcement anyway?
I played my fair share of Vintage thank you. Also you never played trinisphere in legacy? T1 trinishpere in Legacy is bad.
Next announcment is June 20 iirc.
It wasn't that bad in Legacy. I played Dragon Stompy for a bit and always liked seeing a first turn sphere. It's not as good due to the amount of mana played in Legacy, but it's still crippling to several decks.
If you played Vintage, why did you say it sucked there? It was horrible. I loved being on the end of playing it first and watching people just groan.
Oh and thanks, I always forget that date.
Calling it now: No changes.
Then we see like 3-6 cards come off (And possibly something get added) in 3 months when the metagame's still too blue.
I didn't say it sucked it Vintage. I just said i played Vintage and i know it was retarded, but i also said trini isn't half as good as it is in Vintage in Legacy, for obvious reasons. Also Mana Vault isn't coming off the list anytime soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahcmai
Calling no changes too, WotC is SO slow on this thing. We waited what, 2 years to see Monolith and Worker unbanned ?
Land Tax may finally come off the list. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Anyways, here are cards I predict WotC may attempt to take off the ban list:
Earthcraft
Hermit Druid
Land Tax
Memory Jar
Mind Twist
I think all of those cards have the greatest chance of being unbanned. Everything else seems too powerful.
I don't mean to be that guy... but...Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
lolwut?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Vise is more safe than any card on that list except MAYBE mind twist. And it's no surprise, given it's a reactionary card.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sims
What's wrong? Speak up!
Aside from making fringe decks like Caress/Megrim playable (and hilarious)... I think we already had a discussion in this thread on how ridiculously busted Jar would be in this format. I can think of no reason that I'd want to give both Combo and MUD decks a Draw 7 that can potentially screw me out of answers depending on what my jar'd 7 are.
I think the general fear is that giving brown decks a draw 7 is a really bad idea, because they have so much fast mana available now. Goblin Welder also makes Jar do silly things in those kinds of decks. I don't think Jar would improve Dark Ritual combo noticably, though, since Diminishing Returns sees 0 maindeck play, and the drawback of that card is pretty insignificant. I'd be curious to know if Megrim + Jar would be unfair. I think not, since you'd have to resolve either 2x Jar + 1x Megrim or 2x Megrim + 1x Jar to win. Plus, you're playing a combo deck that loses to Disenchant.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I don't think Megrim Jar would be too broken, but do keep in mind you get to run 8 Megrims, so 1 jar is probably all you need ontop of having other discard to ping in before jar resolves.
I'd love to see a Megrim competitve deck! R/B with various discards and such.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sims
Ah yes, forgot about the new and improved Megrim. That could very well make it a good deck. However, it's much more susceptible to hate than many of combo decks that are legal now, because it loses to Pithing Needle, Stifle, Null Rod, bassically all the hate bears and it will also lose to disenchant effects on occasion when you don't have enough Megrims/dsicard to overcome it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sims
I think the game has changed a lot since it was auto-banned that it could be interesting to have it come off. People will be able to fight it much better now, and even though it might make MUD insane, those decks still aren't fast enough to avoid scrooping to a Null Rod. Or am I just being crazy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kikoo
Null Rod
Energy Flux
Hurkyl's Recall
Bye bye MUD, Affinity and other annoying artifact heavy decks.
This is an argument that annoys me whenever someone dregs it up again.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
You know how many cards "answer" Minds Desire? A bunch! Yawgmoth's Will? A frigging ton! Does that mean they should unban any of those cards? Proooobably not.
Anyway to not just nerd rage through the world: I'd like to see Land Tax (yeah, like that's going to happen...), Mind Twist and Worldgorger Dragon unbanned.
All of these cards seem pretty fair.
Though "No change" is the save bet, obviously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch
That's quite the nerdrage for an argument that wasn't pertaining to Memory Jar in any capacity. Read my post a little more carefully before blowing up next time.
I think I'll actually say Black Vise this time. There's probably no way that will happen, but it seems the safest one past Land Tax and you know that will stay on there until the day Black Lotus comes off. Vise would have the effect of kicking blue based control in the teeth.
Previously, I would have argued quite vehementlly against Jar's unban (and I'm a storm combo player...). However, your arguments have made me think about it a little more, and I honestly don't think it would be that bad. The main thing that makes Jar scary is that it would spawn an entirely new combo deck (or decks, I think Megrim/Jar and Jar Tendrils), one unlike any seen before in Legacy, and it's very difficult to gauge the power of said deck without actually testing it. The same applies to Mind's Desire, but I believe that card is more broken than either Jar or Time Spiral (which I consider to be on about an even footing). Jar would certainly give MUD a shot in the arm, but honestly that deck needs more consistent mana accel to be truly good.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
The MUD issue brings up a card somebody discussed a while ago, Mana Vault. I've never really thought about what unbanning this card could do, but it would certainly be interesting. Essentially, it's a more broken Grim Monolith - but the latter isn't really that broken at all, so I don't know. I think if WOTC wants to make MUD good enough to really compete (without doing something stupid like unbanning Shop) unbanning that card is the way to go. The issue is, it also strengthens combo (as it can serve as another ritual if you play engines that require lots of colorless a la Ad Nauseum). Then again, if MUD is strong, combo is in a lot of trouble (see Vintage where Tendrils decks are being hated out of the format by an onslaught of Workshop decks). Of course, it also gets countered by Mental Misstep, so it's at least something to think about.