I'm just not seeing that. On paper Pridemages and Tops instead of Bobs and Crushers just doesn't seem that much faster. Definitely an interesting, and apparently proven, take on Naya Loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
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I'm just not seeing that. On paper Pridemages and Tops instead of Bobs and Crushers just doesn't seem that much faster. Definitely an interesting, and apparently proven, take on Naya Loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Bob is a terrible attacker in Legacy (actually, in general as well). He's a 2/1 with no evasion and you rarely want to send him into combat anyway because he's more valuable as a Phyrexian Arena than as damage. Pridemage is at least a Watchwolf alone, a bear when not, and lends his support to bigger creatures when you can't safely attack with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Crusher does not seem hot in a format with a lot of StPs (with Snapcasters), bounce spells, GftT/Dismembers, etc. I would rather run Terravore because he's bigger right away, but Knight is probably better than either of those except for the fact that you need white for her.
However, the dorks aside, he runs Bolt, StP, and Top on one when most Aggro Loam lists, even Jund ones, run zero one drops despite not having Chalice. It gives him more options when creating an early-game presence and keeps him from falling too far behind against tempo decks. He is far less reliant on Mox Diamond than most Jund builds, for example, and if I were Canadian Thresh against this deck I would seriously consider Spell Piercing/Dazing the Diamonds because it's practically a Time Walk against most AL builds.
My biggest beef is that I feel Big Zoo with GSZ and planeswalkers is just a better implementation, but he's been playing this build since forever and has a lot of play experience, so that helps.
So why any other loam RGBW is not a big zoo with loam package??Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
I think there is much more than that in his deck
Anyway, what do you think about throwing away completely the black colour?
I'll answer the second question first.Quote:
Originally Posted by marcel
I think that going Naya colors means you need to speed the deck up, because losing Dark Confidant is an issue if you stay in midrange territory - you don't have enough ways to draw cards or generate card advantage (LftL alone is not enough).
And now for the answer for your first question: why aren't four-color builds also just "Big Zoo" decks? Because Big Zoo is still fundamentally an aggro deck, and Aggro Loam is fundamentally a midrange deck. Put another way: even Big Zoo still has the capability to kill people with very aggressive starts, while Aggro Loam almost never does even when you open on a Mox Diamond. Zoo, even Big Zoo builds that are more top-heavy, values mana efficiency for its creatures over basically everything else; Aggro Loam values size and flexibility. Zoo is dominant in the early game and looks to follow through on its gains in the midgame; Aggro Loam is weak in the early game and looks to take over the midgame and then grind out an inevitable late-game.
In other words, Big Zoo is still an aggro deck that has just slowed down and tried to go over the top, while Aggro Loam is pretty much always a midrange deck. On a spectrum of fair decks from "almost combo-speed aggro" to "grind-'em-out control," Aggro Loam is more or less in the middle while Big Zoo leans towards the aggro end much more heavily.
That's why I feel losing some of Aggro Loam's midrange-ness just makes you a worse implementation of Big Zoo. You have none of Big Zoo's ability to just quickly beat people up sometimes, and you have a lot of the liabilities of being a fair, midrange-ish deck. The Loam engine - with the cycling cards and Seismic Assault - gives you a better late-game, sure, but I don't think Big Zoo is exactly hurting for that if it's running GSZ and planeswalkers and the Loam engine eats up tons of space for something that is fundamentally a late-game engine.
In short, I don't think his deck is "the answer" to Aggro Loam's woes. I think he did well with it because he's been playing it forever and has tons of experience with it, and knowing the ins and outs of your deck and your matchups is a huge deal in Legacy (since many people won't be nearly as up to speed as you are). It's certainly not a bad deck, per se, but it's not the kind of deck that is well-positioned or inherently powerful enough to win a big tournament.
About the midrange-ness - obv, we lose the Dark Confidant, but we gain the Top. Top is just so powerful and flexible. Confidant gets the first removal spell it can take, except if you have a chalice, but chalice...it's good only if you install it T1, so you have to make a combo of two cards - Mox+Chalice on T1 (+2 lands ofc). It's a 2-card combo that doesn't instantly win a game, so it's a bad one.
Big Zoo - I totally agree with you, but I'm against calling Naya Loam a big zoo with loam package. 11 creatures is not zoo.
^^ Or they don't have removal and bob wins the game. And don't buy into the negativity. Bob IS a threat. 2 damage a turn adds up when your deck is full of shit like bolt, seismic and lavamancer.
I just don't see how 3 Pridemages comes anywhere close to creating the kind of early game that Zoo has. Pridemage is usually the weakest guy Zoo plays in terms of power/cmc ratio, but his ability is so relevant that he generally still makes the cut as a 2 or 3-of. I think in this case he's more of a hatebear/utility guy than a beater, but I could be way off. I would still really like to hear from the guy that ran it. I can't help but wonder if it really is a superior build to Jund or if it's a combination of skilled play, a pilot that's really comfortable with his deck, and a list that's unconventional enough that most people aren't prepared to play against it.
They don't. Don't think about it like you think about Zoo. In this deck he does 2 functions - make tarmo bigger or destroy something (equips,vial,moat,etc) sometimes without letting the opponent pass, so this function is somekind similar to vindicate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
This build if far more superior than RBG because of its flexibily given by the 1cc spells, but this list if far more harder to play (sometimes I look in my hand and I say to myself: omg, what the truck shoud I do with this) and the fact that everyone expects black helps a lot also=)
I tried Top at one point and I don't think it's an adequate substitute for Dark Confidant. The Naya build that did well at the GP is probably fine with it because it can play more aggressively in the early game thanks to its 1cc removal and generally better curve (which is why it plays closer to a Big Zoo deck than a traditional Aggro Loam deck; the tempo is different), so Top makes sense there as a bridge in the midgame. I would still want to try a mix of Tops and Sylvan Libraries because the ability to draw multiple cards per turn without having to cash in a Top or spend a million mana to Loam is important.
You should use loam+cyclers then, but loosing 4 pv (even 8 maybe?) per turn is really painful (...in this deck), but of course it's more mana-effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
The problem of the mix is that once you have one piece you wouldn't need the other one, don't you agree?
Loam and cycling lands eats up a ton of mana, though. For five mana, four of it colored, you can draw three cards or draw two cards and mill three to get back Loam. Compare that to Jace TMS, which Brainstorms every turn for free, or Bob, who draws a card every turn for free-ish, or Library, that can draw an extra card for life.Quote:
Originally Posted by marcel
You really need two ways to draw in this deck; because Loam is almost strictly late-game, you need something to smooth out your draws in the early and midgames. Bob/Top/Library do that, but I would prefer Library because it is free to use although Top is better with fetches and can draw a card for free at the cost of your next draw being Top. I would want to test a mix because they don't overlap perfectly and one of them is probably better in context than the other, though I don't know that I ever tested them side-by-side. I think mana efficiency is the bigger issue for this deck, so Library might be better, but it's hard to say.
I see clearly your point, but don't you think that Top is better also because of the ability draw a card on the instant speed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
If your deck is full of effects that happen at instant speed, then sure. But most Aggro Loam decks aren't.Quote:
Originally Posted by marcel
Sure, because the don't play bolt/stp (read: because they are RBG(W)) =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Eh...there's a total of seven cards that can played from the hand at instant speed in that build (cycling lands kind of count but not really). That they're all removal spells makes Top more attractive; that there aren't many of them makes it less attractive compared to static effects that draw cards for no extra mana input. Drawing a card with Top is rarely free unless you know some of your top several cards from a previous turn's Top activation; most often you will pay 1, look, reorder, and then tap to draw, making Top a better cycling land except for the fact that your next draw will be a Top.Quote:
Originally Posted by marcel
I like Top more in blue decks because there are a lot more cards that are likely to be live when you're drawing on your opponent's turn. That is why I would want to test a mix of draw spells here: to see how often being able to draw removal on an opponent's turn is relevant versus how often I would rather spend the mana doing stuff on my turn.
Are you/do you know Dmitry Nikitin, the guy who played that 17th place list?
Why have you thought so?=)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Any way I'm not, but I know him well. I was playing my list for sometime, very similar to his.
Might I say, nice fucking job, Tony?
Does anyone know where Tony's T8 footage is? I missed it since Gran Torino was on :tongue:
-Matt
Seconded. Congrats man!Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Wow, some of these people in the T8 have the most ridiculous occupations.
Lastly of course: REPRESENT WEST SIDE!
Congrats Tony.
Edit: Can't wait to read another legendary tournament report.
Sadly that decklist doesn't describe how damn pimp his actual deck was. Very nice looking, I am envious.
you asked.
Report
Supplemental Vegas Rant
And yeah, my deck is pretty cool. I'm still missing a Lavamancer and 3 bobs though so it's not really a "Foil" Deck. And don't get me started on that sideboard...
You honestly have the best reports. Great job on top-8ing, way to give the rest of us Loam players hope!
Congrats on the great finish!
Could you maybe explain what you used Noxious Revival for and why you decided to play it? Reading your report you seemed to board it in quite often.
Surgical Extraction is the primary form of Graveyard hate right now. You can protect Loam from Surgical with Cycling lands, but you can't protect wasteland or cycling lands. That's where Noxious Revival comes in. Also, Noxious Revival can be used to get back Seismic, counter reanimation spells or time walk your opponent.
I can say little other than congratulations, sincerely. I have some doubts about what I read, though:
- Looks like some number of Seismic Assaults always get boarded out?
- Would you run more than 2 Noxious Revivals?
- I understand there are matchups where Volrath's Stronghold won't be getting anything back, but being a mana source I'd have a hard time boarding it out. What's the reasoning behind it?
I can't speak for your last two questions, but Assaults are pretty clunky. They're fine late-game options, but you rarely want to see them early except against some tribal decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonex
Yeah I was also curious about the siding out of Assaults. It looked like it was mostly against control matches, is it just b/c it's a pain to play it around Daze?
Seismic assault is great but is usually less effective when they have graveyard hate to hamper loam. That's why I usually switch it out for anti-hate (Noxious Revival) or additional removal (Pyroblast--Perish or Edict, if they're in the board). Against decks like painter, you need to cut down on the amount of lands you run and bulk up your threats/answers. If he was on UR I would have boarded out Volrath's/fourth mox/fourth cave for Pyroblasts, but I had to settle for grips cause he was on mono red. And yeah, I could see running three noxious revival (if I cut Liliana of the Veil) the card was really good.
I generally board in some number of REBs against Imperial anyway, at least for game 2. Most of the time they'll name Blue with Painter anyway, to abuse their own REBs and Jaya, so you can catch them off guard. Then if it comes to game 3, the threat alone will sometimes get them to board out some of that stuff and name another color.
Why is your deck so hard to beat with a rock based deck?
Pre-board it's tough because Rock-style decks generally aren't fast enough to win before the Loam engine gets going. Discard is largely useless as is Wasteland, and Loam just has a stronger late-game advantage engine.
Luckily, you're in black, so you have lots of boarding options. I saw your board from the other thread, Faerie Macabre really isn't good here because a smart Loam player won't overextend into grave hate game 2/3, esp. against black. Extirpate and Leyline of the Void are your best bets. Not sure what your maindeck looks like, but GSZ gives you access to Scavenging Ooze as well.
What I'm going to say will probably sound like danger of cool things at the very least, but when you mention discard, does it include Encroach? I've seen people keep hands assuming they won't touch their lands except for the occasional Hymn to Tourach, so they never see it coming. The possibility of discarding a dual and extracting it surgically the same turn sounds remote, but pretty appealing.
Just saw, that this:
http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/attachment...tachmentid=385
will probably see preint in the next set. Looks like a worse BS in red to me, but i think you can somehow abuse it in this deck.
Um, no, it's an exact Careful Study in red, but with flashback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtre
I'm not sure what this does here. You don't get any particular reward for putting cards in the graveyard unless you're running Terravore and Knight of the Reliquary, and even then this is -1 card up front and +0 cards when you flash it back. I'm not sure seeing four cards is worth it when for the same total amount of mana you have Harmonize, which shows you one less card but lets you keep them all.
I also have no idea what you would want to cut for this.
Accustomed as I am to inventing absurd aberrations for all types of tournaments, completely copying a list kind of makes me sick; however, I decided to have no choice before Antonius's version. The main is exactly the same as in his last report. The sideboard, however, looked like this:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Noxious Revival
2 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
I just can't remember how I boarded in any game, although it was in the lines of X Assaults, or 1 Mox + 1 Bolt + 1 red cycling land, or something like that. Also, I didn't know if there's an established name for this list, so I named it "Ojalá tengas cáncer" ("Hope you have cancer", in Spanish), for no apparent reason. Horrible taste, I know.
Round 1: MUD
He starts with a somewhat innocuous Chalice @ 1 that's followed by a turn 2 Metalworker. I just drop a land and think I'm doomed, just before topdecking a saviour Mox that lets me land a turn 2 Assault and kill his Metalworker. He lands a Lodestone Golem, I drop the third land and cast a Loam to kill his Golem and pretty much anything he could ever play after that.
I remember boarding Grips and some Revivals, expecting grave hate and expecting him to board out Chalices from what he's seen. Awkward error - he starts with Tomb, Chalice @ 0 and Chalice @ 1, frustrating my turn 1 Mox. He then drops a Metalworker, and next turn he taps it to reveal another Chalice, another Metalworker, a Golem and a Kuldotha Forgemaster. Oh how bad I'd have wanted to draw a Wasteland in time.
Game 3 I Waste his first two lands (Mishra's Factory and Rishadan Port) and drop Lavamancer and Confidant. He sticks a Phyrexian Revoker, but barely anything else. I drop a Crusher, followed by another Revoker on his side. The deal is sealed by attacking with Lavamancer, 7/7 Crusher, and a 4/4 Ooze that previously ate his Revokers (one Gripped and the other previously traded with my Confidant).
1-0
Round 2: ANT
I can't do anything in the whole round. I almost win game 2, though, since I drop both Lavamancers ASAP and start attacking and emptying my graveyard when possible, leaving him at 2 life. I should have optimized my land drops, though, by cracking any fetchland before dropping simple duals. I manage to extract his Dark Rituals surgically and Revival a fetchland of his to gain a turn, or at least force him to crack his fetchland if he wants to draw something new. I remember keeping Assaults in for the occasional flood, but boarding Loams out. Ugh, sideboarding is definitely the bane of my existence as a Magic player.
1-1
Round 3: Punishing Zoo
Every living being on each side gets Bolted in the face. Then, I Pulse his Sylvan Library (I could have done it way sooner, had I just searched the correct lands - I seriously need to improve that point) and drop an apparently worthless Assault that becomes invaluable once I draw and cycle into Loam.
I lose game 2 to a baffling life loss that must be comprised of Bolts in my face, Confidants at work and the occasional combat damage. I'm at 1 life and have two Crushers in front of his Knight of the Reliquary and Goyf, then spend my last two mana cycling lands and see an Ooze that will save me the game unless I die now - which I do at the end of my turn, his Knight searching a Dryad Arbor...
Game 3 is simple, my opening hand has some removal and cycling lands, but all I draw from here are more lands. He just goes his way without the need of anything spectacular.
1-2
Round 4: ???
Completely unknown deck that spends both games throwing targeted discard, cantrips and bouncers. At the end of the round I see Tendrils of Agony on top of his deck, yet no Rituals or artifact mana have ever been cast.
2-2
Round 5: RW Boros
Mostly built from the remnants of some Commander precons, it has all the good stuff you should expect from these colors, perhaps too much - I don't think Goblin Guide and Stoneforge Mystic should go together. Anyway, an early Assault-Loam lock takes care of everything game 1.
Game 2 consists of me desperately searching for Explosives while a Mirran Crusader with Swords of Feast/Famine and War/Peace ends the game in a single swing.
Game 3 has some early removal and a Crusher that beats for 10 in a field just ravaged by an Assault.
3-2
Round 6: Faerie Stompy
Completely surreal round, I start with turn 1 Lavamancer and he starts with turn 2 Trinisphere and turn 3 Pithing Needle on Lavamancer. I Waste his City of Traitors and he gets stuck on a single Island for the rest of the game.
Game 2 he mulls to six and does literally nothing on his first turn. I drop Lavamancer and start beating, he drops Island and then a City of Traitors, then Cloud of Faeries and Jitte. I drop a Mountain, I fill my empty graveyard with two cycling lands and kill the Faeries with Lavamancer. He drops Serendib Efreet and I drop an Assault, discarding my last land and activating Lavamancer to kill it. Some turns later he drops a Sea Drake, but at that time an earlier Confidant has already led me to Loam.
4-2
Round 7: RUG Tempo
You know, there are games where they start with Volcanic Island, Delver of Secrets, just for you to go Wasteland, Mox, Bolt. A 3/4 Goyf is pretty much everything I need.
Game 2 has him going agressive with Goyf and Green Sun's Zenith into Noble Hierarch. I drop a Crusher and rely on him to get big, but he thinks being a 3/3 is da nutz. However, when he drops a second Hierarch and a Delver and I chumpblock his Goyf with a Confidant, that still 3/3 Crusher has nothing better to do than leading me straight into Pernicious Deed @ 2. No regrets.
5-2
Explosives and Revivals have been underwhelming, Metamorphs have never come in, and a friend is asking me "why the fuck are you playing Surgical Extraction when you could be playing Extirpate". The conclusion is clear: I'm still a total noob at building sideboards and even worse at using them. These cards need further testing and I'm sure it doesn't hurt to know something about a deck's specific matchups before playing it in a 100+ players tournament. However, I've had so much fun with the deck that I definitely don't care.
^^
Bad beats on that Zoo matchup. I haven't lost to zoo in a while, but everytime I match up it always feel like the sort of thing that could go both ways because it's defined as raw power vs raw speed.
Also, I think Seismic Assault (without active loam) is way underrated. One land for a shock still kills like 60% of the dudes in the format. Crazy value.
I played Aggro Loam in small tournament this weekend (about 20-25 players). I only started playing it recently and my lack of practice and experience with the deck showed, hence I finished with quite a disappointing 1-1-3.
Still, playing the deck was fun and it felt powerful so I'll continue practicing with it.
I played Aggro Loam in a 42-man event yesterday and missed Top 8 on tiebreakers. Against BUG Control in the last round, I was Surgically Extracted four times in one game, but I still won it. It went down like this: Extraction on Wasteland, Extraction on Loam, Extraction on post-Spell Snare Dark Confidant, Extraction on Loam (got my fourth one out of the board with Burning Wish to kill his Tarmogoyf). The deck was great all day, but I suffered a random annihilation in Round 2 against a guy playing Hive Mind. Such a bad matchup. I had several close games with a Bant/Bant Maverick deck, with him getting the best of me in the end. I probably could have won that one with tighter play. My other matches on the day were Sneak Attack (with maindeck Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon) (2-1), GW Maverick (1-0) and Goblins (2-1).
Nice! Then you probably played against James with the Bant Maverick deck :)
-Matt