[Deck] Spanish Inquisition (B/x Storm Combo)

Additional lands doesn't make the D4s weaker. In the example you described there are still 53 cards left in the deck. That means you don't have resources yet. You have to build a grind board state to actually start grinding. If you get lucky with the first D4, then you should go as deep as you want (and kill if you can or play Belcher pass), but it doesn't guarantee that you'll get the kill because you dilute the main deck to an anti-control version that prefers consistency, perpetual resources, and protection. These things naturally inhibit long spell chains no matter what board configuration of the grind plan that you play. Its better to first secure a board state, then grind out the win. In the case of having multiple LGs in hand, they are not necessarily guaranteed land drops. Your opponent can Snare or Pierce them knowing that eventually you'll have enough land to negate the Pierce/Daze. Having extra lands means you get to turn off Spell Pierce and Daze and force them to play hard counter magic on your business. In that case lands become valuable and actually lets you resolve your D4s instead of trading D4 for Spell Pierce until they run out of counter magic. The more of them you draw the better and the more of them you play the better chance you have of opening with one or two. Ideally, I prefer to open with 3 perpetual resources and work up from there. If I add in some acceleration, we can dodge Pierce/Daze with the rituals or CoF and force them to FoW/Counterspell. Once the hard counter magic is gone, you can play your Belcher or IT and get there.

Granted, having more lands means that you are almost guaranteed to misfire if Belcher comes down early. But when we know we are moving to mid game if we don't get off an early protected business spell, Carpet vs. slower control, or early EtW, then it doesn't matter that you are playing 5 lands in a deck that plays Belcher because you often play at least 3 of your lands while grinding. By the time Belcher comes down, you have a lower chance of misfiring, especially if you leave Taiga for last because you haven't gone for EtW already. Otherwise, when Belcher comes down early.. decks like RUG/UR Tempo have absolutely no way to remove Belcher and Miracles/Stoneblade don't often remove it either, and when the have, I'm so far ahead with perpetuals that they lose anyway. This isn't always the case but too often does an early Belcher win the game even through 2 or 3 misfires while a mid or late game Belcher means I've already hit all my lands or most of them. Keep in mind that in testing of this build with much land, I haven't actually lost because of Belcher misfires. Most of the time I've lost because I don't have enough perpetual resources to grind effectively.

I'm not a fan of PIF because the only cards it works well with post-board are D4s, IT, Crit, Drit, EtW, and Tendrils. Pact and Culling come out so you won't always have shit sitting in the yard to abuse when you draw it as a potential business spell. Further, Carpet and LED do not work with PIF at all but you can actually use either one with IGG. I've won the game by returning a countered Carpet of Flowers with a Bayou to cast, pass to second main phase and add enough mana to get there. Also, IGG is fantastic with LED, unlike PIF. You can't IGG loop if LED is your acceleration for PIF. Thats huge especially if your meta has a lot of combo where you need the win right now and can't just go for tokens. Against blue though where PIF > IGG.. EtW is just as effective as PIF but for the cost of 3R vs. 3R + B initial mana source. Also, IGG has been indispensable in the discard match ups. Also, I don't know how often you've encountered IGG as business spell but it can be a pseudo-mind twist. SI has a much easier time recovering form "discard 4 cards" than most other decks. In general I've found IGG to be much more flexible even though its not a card I can port to the control match ups, where main deck PIF would be. Granted each has there own play style so if it works, go for it but I haven't had much luck with it myself in the main deck. I'm more optimistic about putting it in the sideboard. I might cut a Bayou for it.


Also, if you find yourself having trouble against Maverick or DnT because of Thalia, have you considered having the main deck EtW and 3 EtW in the board? It makes your spell chains smaller so you can D4 into Belcher, pass the turn or EtW pass.. or just natural EtW from your hand via Taiga or Lotus Petal. 10 tokens gets there if its turn 1. I find it more consistent to go for tokens then hope you have the piece of hate and they don't also drop Mother of Runes, or force you into a must win situation after you remove the bear. The EtW are also indispensable in the Tempo matchup where 4 EtW gives you a higher chance of opening T1 with tokens and just steam rolling them.. especially when the grind plan is less effective against Tempo due to needing fewer Islands to function, Daze, a faster clock, and reach.


If you want to abuse PIF to its fullest potential, perhaps a Belcherless Pact list, with post-board PIF and Lands would be the best bet. Tendrils and EtW in the main deck.

So, off the top of my head.

maindeck PIF and then:

SB
4 Duress
4 Carpet of Flowers
2 EtW
1 PIF
3 Bayou
1 Taiga

So you'll have 2 PIF 3 EtW afterwards and you'll be going for a longer spell chain or hoping to hit EtW on a single D4. You won't have to worry about Belcher misfire at all, lands will help facilitate a PIF line of play, same as CoF. I wonder if some variation of this could work for PSI. Its more vulnerable to Flusterstorm (no Belcher), and it relies on longer spell chains, and its very graveyard hate able if they catch on and board in their Crypts, Relics, etc. though I think I'll test it anyway and see how it goes. That is, after I've tested the 4 land SB plan I'm running currently against various Tempo decks. I've concluded its pretty damn good against slower controls decks. The tempo matchup is still largely untested.

As far as the man plan goes, Death's Shadow actually isn't that bad. I used to play 2 in the main deck actually and they were occasionally really awesome, especially when I boarded into the full man plan. Its definitely a strictly Tempo meta strategy though. STP and Snapcaster rape the man plan otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Additional lands doesn't make the D4s weaker. In the example you described there are still 53 cards left in the deck. That means you don't have resources yet.

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Well, I think I satisfactorily demonstrated that more lands gives the D4s more dead draws when going for a spell chain. Whether or not that makes them "weaker" I suppose depends on what your desired lines of play are--but in my eyes your configuration is definitely "weaker."

And, to be fair, I never said what the rest of your hand was in the scenario I described. Maybe there's also an ESG and a Carpet of Flowers in there.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

You have to build a grind board state to actually start grinding. If you get lucky with the first D4, then you should go as deep as you want (and kill if you can or play Belcher pass), but it doesn't guarantee that you'll get the kill because you dilute the main deck to an anti-control version that prefers consistency, perpetual resources, and protection. These things naturally inhibit long spell chains no matter what board configuration of the grind plan that you play. Its better to first secure a board state, then grind out the win.

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Although you are correct, this in no way negates the fact that additional lands make D4 chains even worse. I win with D4 chains--pre-board and post-board--enough that I would probably not be willing to add more lands. And I think you can "get lucky" with the first D4 more than you seem to imply. Sometimes the blue opponents don't mull into Force because they think their double Spell Pierce or whatever will get there, and although I might be taking out the Culling package it doesn't mean D4 chains are impossible. Yes, they're worse--although sometimes even Culling itself can occasionally be a bad draw in a D4 chain (ever been cock blocked by a D4 into Culling/IT/x/x that kept you from going hellbent? I know I have.)

Also my example didn't account for the late game, but I think that more lands would make your late/mid-game D4s worse as well. I know you said that you tend to have all your lands out by then, but I imagine that doesn't always happen, and then you can potentially hit lands you don't want off D4s you need to chain in order to win.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

In the case of having multiple LGs in hand, they are not necessarily guaranteed land drops. Your opponent can Snare or Pierce them knowing that eventually you'll have enough land to negate the Pierce/Daze. Having extra lands means you get to turn off Spell Pierce and Daze and force them to play hard counter magic on your business. In that case lands become valuable and actually lets you resolve your D4s instead of trading D4 for Spell Pierce until they run out of counter magic. The more of them you draw the better and the more of them you play the better chance you have of opening with one or two. Ideally, I prefer to open with 3 perpetual resources and work up from there. If I add in some acceleration, we can dodge Pierce/Daze with the rituals or CoF and force them to FoW/Counterspell. Once the hard counter magic is gone, you can play your Belcher or IT and get there.

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That all sounds good but IMO all the mana development you really need is Carpet of Flowers plus the mana sources and acceleration already in the deck. Even post-board the majority of the deck is mana. I haven't tested your list (although I will) but I can't imagine ever wanting to draw land like you're describing, giving my blue opponents more draws and potentially allowing a RUG opponent to swing in with a Delver.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Granted, having more lands means that you are almost guaranteed to misfire if Belcher comes down early. But when we know we are moving to mid game if we don't get off an early protected business spell, Carpet vs. slower control, or early EtW, then it doesn't matter that you are playing 5 lands in a deck that plays Belcher because you often play at least 3 of your lands while grinding. By the time Belcher comes down, you have a lower chance of misfiring, especially if you leave Taiga for last because you haven't gone for EtW already. Otherwise, when Belcher comes down early.. decks like RUG/UR Tempo have absolutely no way to remove Belcher

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RUG often runs Ancient Grudge in the sideboard.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

and Miracles/Stoneblade don't often remove it either

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But sometimes they do. Sometimes they have Disenchant. And if you have to activate multiple times because you keep hitting lands, you're giving them more opportunities to draw/cantrip into Disenchant.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

and when the have, I'm so far ahead with perpetuals that they lose anyway. This isn't always the case but too often does an early Belcher win the game even through 2 or 3 misfires while a mid or late game Belcher means I've already hit all my lands or most of them. Keep in mind that in testing of this build with much land, I haven't actually lost because of Belcher misfires. Most of the time I've lost because I don't have enough perpetual resources to grind effectively.

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I will try your list. Everything you're describing sounds very good, if true. (Not that I don't believe you, I merely suspect that variance may have been in your favor--but, again, I haven't tried your list.)

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

I'm not a fan of PIF because the only cards it works well with post-board are D4s, IT, Crit, Drit, EtW, and Tendrils.

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So the only things it works well with are:
1) Every single business spell except Charbelcher--including IT and D4s, which can find a Charbelcher.
2) The best acceleration in my deck (and if I'm casting PiF with a full graveyard I probably have threshold).

Sounds good to me.

It does also work with Land Grant and Duress, which are rarely relevant but can randomly be good.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Pact and Culling come out so you won't always have shit sitting in the yard to abuse when you draw it as a potential business spell.

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It's true, you won't always have a good graveyard--but you frequently will. You won't always have a good graveyard for IGG either, I don't really see your point here.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Further, Carpet and LED do not work with PIF at all but you can actually use either one with IGG. I've won the game by returning a countered Carpet of Flowers with a Bayou to cast, pass to second main phase and add enough mana to get there. Also, IGG is fantastic with LED, unlike PIF. You can't IGG loop if LED is your acceleration for PIF.

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So your argument basically boils down to:
a) You won't always have specific graveyard combinations that are good with PiF.
b) Therefore PiF is bad.
c) Here are some specific graveyard combinations that are good with IGG.
d) Therefore IGG is good.

...

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Against blue though where PIF > IGG.. EtW is just as effective as PIF but for the cost of 3R vs. 3R + B initial mana source.

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EtW does a completely different thing than PiF does, they are not comparable.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Also, IGG has been indispensable in the discard match ups.

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Past in Flames could be good there too. I mean, it even has flashback.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Also, I don't know how often you've encountered IGG as business spell but it can be a pseudo-mind twist. SI has a much easier time recovering form "discard 4 cards" than most other decks. In general I've found IGG to be much more flexible even though its not a card I can port to the control match ups,

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Yes, the card is good sometimes. I am not disputing that. I simply don't encounter those times where the card is good as much I find other cards being better, so it's not in my list.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

where main deck PIF would be. Granted each has there own play style so if it works, go for it but I haven't had much luck with it myself in the main deck.

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Me either, which is why I don't play with it in the main deck.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

I'm more optimistic about putting it in the sideboard. I might cut a Bayou for it.

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That is almost certainly correct.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Also, if you find yourself having trouble against Maverick or DnT because of Thalia, have you considered having the main deck EtW and 3 EtW in the board? It makes your spell chains smaller so you can D4 into Belcher, pass the turn or EtW pass.. or just natural EtW from your hand via Taiga or Lotus Petal. 10 tokens gets there if its turn 1...If you want to abuse PIF to its fullest potential, perhaps a Belcherless Pact list, with post-board PIF and Lands would be the best bet. Tendrils and EtW in the main deck.

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I already have 1x EtW in the main deck.

It definitely does help for when you can't quite hit enough storm but have plenty of mana. (And for that reason I like it vs. every deck.) But sometimes I can't get there by T2 because of bad draws, whatever, and their T2 Thalia shuts me down. This deck usually just wins before then, but every now and then it just doesn't and I want to have some answers for those times. Really, though, all the available answers are pretty bad.

I already play 2x Tendrils as well, and have no interest in playing PiF main or improving the card--it's already good enough as-is. Belcher is way too good to cut, I used to play the D7 list and when I tried Belcher it was a real eye opener. Playing the card is correct, PSI is a perfect shell for it: tons of fast mana, not a lot of lands.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

As far as the man plan goes, Death's Shadow actually isn't that bad. I used to play 2 in the main deck actually and they were occasionally really awesome, especially when I boarded into the full man plan. Its definitely a strictly Tempo meta strategy though. STP and Snapcaster rape the man plan otherwise.

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I've seen you suggest Death's Shadow before. (I think I've read just about everything on the internet about this deck.) I haven't tried it yet because I haven't had a ton of success with man plans in general. Sometimes they're randomly good but I've definitely played games where my opponent left in removal for a non-existant Xantid Swarm or something.

FWIW since you haven't seen my list and seem to be offering suggestions that are already in-line with what I have, here's what I'm currently playing (with mostly Japanese cards and FBB duals :smile:):

Main
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Tendrils of Agony

4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Tutor

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Culling the Weak
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Tinder Wall
1 Wild Cantor
1 Skyshroud Cutter
1 Dryad Arbor


Side
4 Duress
4 Carpet of Flowers
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Taiga
3 Slaughter Pact

I played once against such a cruel bargain list and it was not funny for me. :)

Question: Why is Belcher without black more common that this? To me this looks stronger...

@lochan

I'm goldfishing your list to get a different perspective on PSI.
10 hands so far and mostly T1 Tendrils, T1 EtW for 12, or T1 Belcher activating by t3.

Just curious though, what's the role of Wild Cantor in your main?
It helps you play EtW true, but if you Pact for it won't you usually die to the trigger before the goblins get to swing? Or are you just trying to draw into Cantor?

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Originally Posted by catmint

I played once against such a cruel bargain list and it was not funny for me. :)

Question: Why is Belcher without black more common that this? To me this looks stronger...

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I have wondered this myself, although PSI is a little less straight-forward and less well known. Personally I think it's a bit stronger than straight Charbelcher for many reasons, including that it gets to play the best rituals and can rebuild much faster. It does sometimes lose to itself, though, which is awkward.

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Originally Posted by Sockosensei

@lochan

I'm goldfishing your list to get a different perspective on PSI.
10 hands so far and mostly T1 Tendrils, T1 EtW for 12, or T1 Belcher activating by t3.

Just curious though, what's the role of Wild Cantor in your main?
It helps you play EtW true, but if you Pact for it won't you usually die to the trigger before the goblins get to swing? Or are you just trying to draw into Cantor?

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I think my list is pretty close to what other people are playing, but I'm glad you're goldfishing such good results with it. I goldfish it nearly every day and it's definitely a very fast and powerful deck.

I would of course never Pact when going for an EtW line of play (unless I have some weird line involving paying for the Pact with LED). It's interesting that you suggested Cantor was good for red color fixing, Tinder Wall is actually better for that purpose since it makes :r::r: off of :g:+S.Pact (and, again, is not great for EtW--mainly Tinder Wall is for generating +1 net mana off S.Pact to play or Activate Belcher).

Anyway, Cantor has a ton of utility here (I think most PSI lists play it), although it's all kind of weird and subtle utility.
1) Mainly it's as a lamb for Culling if, for whatever reason, I can't play either a Skyshroud Cutter or a Dryad Arbor. This is probably the most frequent thing I do with the card and happens because some combination of: I've already cast a Culling, I don't have a Forest, I've already made a land drop (e.g. I have already played and culled Dryad Arbor that turn).
2) Color fixing :g: into :b:, usually combined with a Ritual to start or continue a D4 chain.
3) Color fixing :r: into :b: (almost never happens)
4) 2 extra storm for zero net-mana (Pact+Cantor)
None of these scenarios happen very frequently individually, but together they happen enough that I include the card. It's also very randomly a beater if I open with it or rip it, but that has only happened to me a couple times.

Its less common in my experience to win with D4 chains after post-board. With more land, a D4 is usually relevant to your board state. For example if you just acquire a bunch of acceleration but no perpetual resources, then you are stuck, and you have to use ritual acceleration to cast your business. I prefer to hold on to the ritual acceleration if I can for IT or to play around Spell Pierce. Acquiring more and more rituals shuts off part of their countersuite (especially in Thresh's case) so even if you can't produce a D4 chain, you still produce a win off a successful D4, it just a long run win instead of a short run win; I prefer this tactic because having more perpetual resources means you'll be able to build up to a grinding position instead of waiting for ritual acceleration on less than 3 perpetual black mana. If your D4 gets countered, it still matters which cards you might have drawn. I'd prefer for those cards to include additional lands because it helps you get to that quinessential 3 black mana. If you can't get there, you can't really grind. SI might still have a savage enough topdeck for you to acquire a ritual and a business spell, but control decks have cantrips. I decided to run additional lands because I discovered that I won most of my games when I hit 3+ black mana and when I didn't, I lost. When I hit 5 mana, I turned off Spell Pierce, 4 mana, turned off Daze, etc. If you get luck with an early D4, you're already ahead of the game. Whether or not you can win off that D4 is irrelevant if you can produce a winning board state.

Also, lands aren't always terrible late game off D4s. If you're drawing multiples then yes, but if you just draw 1 in your D4 then its just +1 mana for whatever you're trying to do. Keep in mind that I board out Tendrils. Its way too difficult to sneak through a D4 and then actually play out 10 spells for a lethal Tendrils. For example, a D4 as the only spell you are casting with 0 cards in hand is very unlikely to produce a lethal spell chain. You need other resources in hand to get there consistently. This happens often.. too often for me to expect anything out of my D4s except resources and with a little luck, perhaps a second D4 and either a kill, tokens, or an unactivated Belcher.

I don't think you're opponent know how to play against Carpet of Flowers if thats all you need. Perhaps you haven't been playing it as long in your metagame as I have. I've been playing SI since like early '07; every one in my metagame knows exactly what I play and most of them I've had discussions with the deck. They either counter Carpet of Flowers if they have a heavy Island hand or they sandbag me on Carpet and it doesn't usually produce more than 2 mana. Against RUG they have Wasteland and Daze. Carpet is very weak there. You basically need lands to keep up with their disruption if they know how to play against you.

Yes RUG often plays Ancient Grudge but I haven't encountered it often. Most of the Tempo players are less familiar with how to play against Carpet/Belcher and friends. Its mostly the slower control players that know how to play against the grind plan.

I said its not often, they certainly do. If you read my last report, he Disenchants 1 Belcher and he blows up my Carpet to stop it from activating while I'm trying to kill him. But he's in topdeck mode and I had a Bayou + Carpet. Carpet died, then I drew into 2 lands to activate Belcher, with a D4 on the top if I needed another business spell in case he drew Snapcaster to flashback Disenchant.

PIF and EtW are only comparable in terms of deck/sb space. PIF is good against control because it doesn't return the opponent countermagic. Also, it has flashback so it forces the opponent to play 2 countermagic to stop it if you have enough perpetual resources to pay 6+ for Flashback and an initial ritual. On the same note, EtW has a better time against countermagic because it dodges everything but Flusterstorm. Granted, EtW needs a much larger number of resources to be a relevant business spell in hand while PIF needs cards in the graveyard to be relevant (whether or not you also cast them from your hand in the same turn as using PIF). All I was saying here is the previous configuration of PIF/Slithermuse is far worse than the IGG/EtW configuration.

When I played PIF I frequently ran into the problem of needing 6 mana for it to work and if only 6, then a Drit in the yard. 7 for a Crit. If that happened, then I was so over the top that just about any business spell would have worked in that scenario. Then there were other cases where my PIF was completely dead because I drew 0 ritual acceleration. So basically I was rarely impressed with it. It produced some absolutely nuts plays but they were rare and when playing with it most of the time I just wanted it to be a land. Then again this is when I played it in the maindeck.

In regards to graveyards and PIF vs. IGG. I was referring to that as a maindeck configuration. PIF wasn't good for me in the maindeck because I wanted to IGG loop with LED far too often. Most of the time, that would force me into Slithermuse instead, which wasn't bad but Slithermuse wasn't a guarenteed kill like IGG; however, Muse is a line of play thats an entire mana cheaper. But EtW > Muse anyway. My argument doesn't apply to it in the post-board because you don't want IGG post-board. Its entirely a pre-board config. argument.

I know you like your build, but I'd suggest testing an IGG in place of your second Tendrils. Its a safe card that gives you free wins with IT/LED loops. My list is basically the same as yours only I have -1 Tendrils, -1 Tinderwall, +1 IGG, +1 Trow. I haven't found too much use for Tinderwall without maindeck PIF so I dropped it from my build. How well has Slaughter Pact worked out for you? I'd imagine that includes EtWs and Taiga once you hit post-board against Maverick/DnT. Also, I was thinking for anyone who wants to play something like Slaughter Pact, Deathmark etc. you might as well just play Karakas. It bounces Thalia so you can go off, can be reused against Teeg or a replayed Thalia as well as not costing anything to cast at all while Pact still costs 1 under Thalia.

[Edit: I had some responses about the list that I removed. I think I shouldn't share my thoughts until after I've actually tested your list, regardless of what I think of it for now. As for the rest of your post,]

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Most of the Tempo players are less familiar with how to play against Carpet/Belcher and friends. Its mostly the slower control players that know how to play against the grind plan.

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It's funny you say this because I'm not really worried about the Tundra match-up, it's RUG that gives me problems. I usually beat Tundra.deck, whatever incarnation it may be. I would actually go so far as to call it a positive match-up post-board. Counterbalance is definitely a thing now, though, which can be hard to deal with.

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PIF and EtW are only comparable in terms of deck/sb space.

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They are totally incomparable. I cannot have a serious discussion that accepts the presupposition that they are comparable in any way, because I'm not willing to concede--even for a moment--that they fill similar roles in any context. They just don't. PiF is a Yawg. Will and EtW is the end of a storm spell chain.

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When I played PIF I frequently ran into the problem of needing 6 mana for it to work

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Carpet + LED is often enough. And that's one of the things I love about PiF: it can sometimes turn LED into an awesome draw when otherwise it would be lackluster.

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I know you like your build, but I'd suggest testing an IGG in place of your second Tendrils.

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No way! IGG sucks versus blue (casting it is a pseudo-concession if they have Force in the yard) and I don't need a card that's good against non-blue decks unless it deals with Thalia. Frankly it sounds like the very definition of "win-more"! As I've already mentioned, I've so rarely seen lines where IGG would be useful that I am not even close to running it.

...and I love the seconds Tendrils. If I have the first in my opening hand and I have to crack and LED then it's great to have that backup. It's also lovely to D4 into Tendrils and using the first to pitch to Chrome Mox is also quite nice. I ran 1x Tendrils for a long time but I simply lost too many games because I didn't have a second. Honestly I think 3x might be correct (for D4 chains, natch) but I like the maindeck EtW too much so I don't have the space.

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[IGG is] a safe card

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If I wanted to play safe cards I wouldn't be playing this deck ;) But really, IGG is not a "safe card" because it's usually suicide vs. blue. Vs. non-blue it's great, but why would I want a card against my already positive match-ups?

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My list is basically the same as yours only I have -1 Tendrils, -1 Tinderwall, +1 IGG, +1 Trow.

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Yes, where we seem to disagree is basically the sideboard. Main deck is fine, I could see running Trow again as well.

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I haven't found too much use for Tinderwall without maindeck PIF so I dropped it from my build.

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I started running Tinderwall because of maindeck PiF, but I kept it in because it produces 2 mana off Pact+:g: which is frequently extremely good for Belcher lines. T.Wall can also be a good "pass the turn ritual" in certain rare lines.

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How well has Slaughter Pact worked out for you?

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I think I already mentioned this in an earlier post, but it's bad. I don't like it. But I don't know what else to run because Deathmark is about the same (worse, even) and a 4-mana Virtue's Ruin under Thalia is a joke. I've tried various configurations and this is what I'm most comfortable with at the moment, but I am just waiting for Wizards to print something better for this slot.

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I'd imagine that includes EtWs and Taiga once you hit post-board against Maverick/DnT.

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Yes, I do board in EtW although frankly I haven't 100% figured out what cards to take out. Usually I start by shaving numbers of the Culling package but it's not clear to me what the correct plan is.

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Also, I was thinking for anyone who wants to play something like Slaughter Pact, Deathmark etc. you might as well just play Karakas.

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Ah, the Bryant Cook method. It's funny you mentioned this because I've also been considering it for awhile. I understand the reasoning (and I am actually a big supporter of using Karakas for this purpose in other decks) but it makes Belcher worse, I can't fetch them up with Land Grant, I've found lands to be bad rips off D4s, and colorless mana is mostly useless in this deck. But Slaughter Pacts sucks too, so...

I actually do plan to test this but I'm not optimistic. Plus the Thalia decks always run their own Karakas, and it's legendary.

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Pact still costs 1 under Thalia.

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Yeah but 1 is infinitely better than 2 (Deathmark) or 4 (Virtue's Ruin). Hell maybe I should just be running 3x Karakas. I think I will try that during my next testing session, I've been considering it for too long to not at least try it out.

UW (Tundra) control variants will usually be positive, yes, but only when your opponents are relatively unfamiliar with how PSI works. Once they get used to it in your local, you'll have to adapt. I've had to constantly adapt my board to retain the advantage in those matchups. I would also agree that its a positive matchup once we hit the post-board. We just have to get lucky and either race the Force early on Turn 1 (and win the die roll) or hope we have a Chrome Mox and/or a land in the opening hand to have any semblance of multiple combo attempts. Once you hit the post-board, you can expect a whole slew of hate cards including Disenchant (which interacts with Snapcaster), EE to blow up tokens or Carpet (its good to bait them to take out Carpet with EE and then play a bunch of tokens for the win), Needle on Belcher, and sometimes Meddling Mage (the other day naming Tendrils which I boarded out). When you also have to deal with these cards, playing the matchup can be tough when they know your deck well enough to pick the right cards on their cantrips and sculpt a hand that can deal with whatever you throw at them. Picking apart the grind plan can be tricky as playing with it though. Having a solid mana base that UW can't touch or fuck with has done well so far. I feel like its been the best adjustment I've made so far to deal with the veteran slow control players in my metagame who I've been playing against for a long time.

By the way, the effectiveness of your board is most easily discernable when you play the same matchup over and over again against the same player. Then he gets to learn how the grind plan works and once he's very familiar with it you can adapt the board accordingly. Thats what I did against a good friend of mine who's tested against countless board variations and maindeck variations to death. Easily more than 500 games including post-board. Initially, the post-board plan was beating the shit out of him, the undeveloped version because he didn't know how to play against it (probably 60/40 in my favor). Eventually, we were even and I had to adapt and I couldn't find a board variation that could consistently get me back to 60/40. Then he started beating me pretty consistently until I started playing the 4 land board. Before the 4 land board it was like a 30/70 matchup for PSI; awesome for BUG because they can blow up the board, Loam lock you out of lands, seal the game with Jace, play post-board Counterbalance to lock you out of the game, Top + fetch constantly to find countermagic. He's pretty good at sculpting the right hand so that he can deal with whatever I throw at him; however, I brought it back to like a 50/50 matchup against BUG with the 4 lands after around 10 games of testing (though I plan to test more pretty soon). When I ported this board from the BUG matchup (slow control) to the UW matchups, it was stellar. I was extremely comfortable opening with a land almost every game, and the only post-board match I lost against control lost me the set because he drew the royal flush of singletons (Karakas + Clique).



Lands help you in the RUG matchup but I don't know yet if they are the post-board best choice for the Tempo matchup. I know they are good against UW or BUG though. You actually need more perpetual resources against RUG than in the UW control matchups because UW doesn't play Wasteland often while its standard maindeck in RUG. Also, Daze makes Carpet less effective or sometimes negates it entirely. Before I ran lands, there were times I played against Merfolk (for example) and lost because I tried to ride a Carpet all the way to the finish. My opponent just sat on Wastelands and Mutavaults without playing a single Island the whole game. Didn't get a black source without it getting countered and just lost to lands. Same thing can happen against RUG only they Waste your land perps and then Daze to keep you off Carpet mana. Some people won't fall for CoF bullshit :P I probably just have to prepare for a different metagame because everyone knows my face.

I encounter hate specific to my deck now. For example, the Pox player I encountered last Thursday local, he had Engineered Plague for my Goblins, Needle for my Belcher, and plenty of discard to stop me from building into a lethal Tendrils. They only thing that saved me is that he went for Plague and Needle before starting to nuke my hand, so I was able to play IT from my hand naturally to find IGG. Without IGG this hand wouldn't have been possible and I wouldn't have had a way to win that game. IGG is far from win-more; it turns IT into a business spell instead of a 6 mana Tendrils/EtW at the tail end of a spell chain or a 9 mana Charbelcher. Without IGG, you need to have played a D4 or you're going for EtW. What happens when your hand is just mana + IT and you aren't running IGG maindeck? Do you play Belcher and pass? You might be exposing yourself to hate like QPM if you can't activate it in time. For example, if you have to wait til turn 3 after landing Belcher turn 1 because you can IT for 6 mana but not 7, then what do you do, make tokens? What if you're playing the combo matchup and they kill you before you can do anything? What about High Tide where they can early Tide for Cunning Wish and Echoing Truth your tokens? Shit happens man. IGG is a 'safe' card because it almost always turns IT + mana into a win without having to go through the motions of a D4 chain. Sometimes IT and mana is all you have access to. The extra Tendrils doesn't help you in this case unless you are chaining D4s together. Also, since I've added Cutter to the maindeck, IGG was a natural inclusion when hands in testing kept coming up where I was a spell shy of a kill with Tendrils because you need to hit 12 spells + ToA in a cutter line of play. IGG makes that possible quite often though IT-->IT-->IT-->Tendrils can happen too, it just costs more mana. IGG is easier. And its often more useful in your hand as the only business spell then ToA could be. Natural ToA from your hand might give you a comfortable lead in your life total against something like Goblins, perhaps putting you close to 30 or 34.. but IGG forces them into a mulligan to 3 while you get to return 3 cards as well.. like the best pieces of the acceleration that played IGG in the first place. Also, in the middle of a spell chain it can be just as effective as Tendrils unless you have exactly 4 mana left post-D4.. sometimes even more effective like if break LEDs after the first D4 into a bunch of floating black mana but you only draw ESG/Pacts, Petals, and only your choice of Tendrils or IGG. IGG would be better since the ESGs won't produce enough spells to give you a lethal Tendrils.

So just to bullet point the advantages of IGG to recap:
- Produces free wins with IT that don't involve D4 spell chains.
- IGG can pseudo-mind twist the opponent and cripple their game plan.
- IGG is often just as useful mid spell chain as Tendrils though each has its own advantage depending on scenario.


I think you miss the point though here: PIF and EtW are comparable because they are IT targets, and you only want so many because the deck is tight for space. One might be a Yawg Will while they other is an option kill condition, but they both happen because of IT more often than otherwise. Either way, I don't know why we are talking about this. IGG is comparable to PIF while EtW is comparable to Slithermuse because IGG and PIF are for looping business at an investment of 5 mana while EtW and Muse are business at 4 mana that don't require 10+ storm.

I think the Tinderwall line of play would involve playing it with a green source perpetual resource like a Bayou or something, then passing the turn and activating it. That is most certainly rare, and risky if you find it with Pact, pass and then activate in your upkeep unless you've already hit both lands. I don't know if this is relevant enough. Otherwise Pact + ESG is potentially producing GG mana. With Tinderwall it just produces RR. and you get to play 2 spells instead of just the Pact (removing 2 ESGs). I think the advantage of Trow/Slitherhead/Deathrite Shaman being cast of black rituals is indispensable, even with Cutter. Sometimes, you have to start with Arbor as your land and then you are cut off from Cutter and need a green source to play your creatures to feed to Culling. I think I'm going to wind up running Shaman since its going to be randomly really awesome outside of being culling fodder.

I'll go through my deck and try to remember what I take out for the Maverick matchup and get back to you. Though I'm guessing its usually just -2 Pact, -2 Culling, +3 Empty the Warrens, +1 Taiga. I've been fine without cutting the entire Culling package especially since you still keep some of the creatures in along with LG-->Arbor. But I don't know what to cut if you want to also board in something to directly deal with Thalia. I'd actually try going with something more premature like Thoughtseize over Duress if you encounter a lot of Thalia in your metagame.. or perhaps Unmask?



On IGG as a safe card (just responding to what you wrote relatively in order), its not good against blue, but Tendrils isn't much better in its place. For example, if either is an IT target, they just counter the IT. If either is cast naturally from the hand, why didn't they just counter the D4 instead? Its not a relevant card in the blue matchup unless you go straight for the throat with an IGG loop because they let IT resolve (ie. they don't have force) in which case its quite good if they can some how answer 8-14 tokens (say.. a lucky EE or they could stabilize with blockers, or even something like Prison effects (Elephant Grass) if you're playing against Enchantress). The real reason you run IGG is because its great in the combo mirror where you absolutely must produce a win on the same turn as IT and if its the only business spell in your hand and you don't have 9 mana total to play and activate Belcher, then you need to go for tokens and hope you can win the race.

I actually overlooked that fact that its relevant to the Belcher plan. Wow.. lol. Umm.. yeah probably not the best choice then unless you play a Belcher less build. Wow though, it will be a fantastic answer for Thalia in SITES, which completely lacks Belcher.



EDIT:
For the record, lolchan.. Kusumoto plays a completely different PSI config. than I do. I'd look into that one if you prefer to play more maindeck Tendrils. He piloted it to a solid 26th place at an SCG if I recall. That or it was just a huge event. I'm pretty sure he played a 3 Tendrils, 2 Belcher configuration, and then sided in 2 Belchers when grinding. I just prefer the Belchers because in most matchups you encounter either card, passing the turn with Belcher will get there. Even if you don't technically get the turn 1, you get inevitability and the pants shitting moment where you flip 20+ and your opponent curses WotC for not letting them play magic. Then, you also save sideboard space by not having to board in the extra Belchers. If you want to run the 3 Tendrils without cutting the Belchers, you'd have to either shave some of the Pact targets, or the business spells.

First off, it's "Lochlan", not "lolchan".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Pact + ESG is potentially producing GG mana. With Tinderwall it just produces RR.

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Yeah I'm not sure what I was thinking here, that was pretty dumb. Obviously Summoner's Pact into ESG is the same amount of mana.
But Tinder Wall does net mana if drawn naturally. And if I have to color fix into red for EtW off of Summoner's Pact I can produce RR from a Tinder Wall instead of just R from a Wild Cantor. It also does generate an additional storm count. It has some good utility despite my error.

And as for the pass the turn thing I have done it before, both off of Summoner's Pact and drawing Tinder Wall naturally. It's definitely risky to activate Belcher with lands still in the deck and a lose-the-game trigger on the stack but it's sometimes an acceptable risk. If there's one land, depending on how many cards are in the deck it's something like a 14% risk of losing, which are odds I am comfortable risking a lot of the time.

In any event I just don't see the lines with Trow enough to run it and I guess I was thinking about the EtW thing with Tinder Wall? Honestly the times when I need anything other than Cutter, Arbor, or ESG are so rare and the other guys are usually just "Culling lamb for :g:" so frequently that running one over the other probably doesn't matter that much. You may be right, maybe Trow (well, Deathrite Shaman now I guess) is better. I can't really argue my point futher because I don't have numbers to back it up or anything, I just recall wanting Tinder Wall way more frequently than Trow.

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I'd actually try going with something more premature like Thoughtseize over Duress if you encounter a lot of Thalia in your metagame

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I suggested this earlier in the thread myself. The idea might have merit but of course does nothing for the situations where Thalia has resolved. How to deal with Thalia is a big problem for all storm decks, though, really, and I don't think anybody has come up with a perfect plan yet.

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On IGG as a safe card (just responding to what you wrote relatively in order), its not good against blue, but Tendrils isn't much better in its place.

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If I have four mana at the end of a D4 chain, I want to cast a Tendrils, not IGG with no mana floating :) And I really, really don't want to cut myself off Tendrils if I have to discard/exile it through some kind of LED/Chrome Mox play (I don't have a Burning Wish to fall back on and a singleton will be in your opener over 10% of the time). Even beyond personally not liking IGG, really for only these two reasons I simply have to have at least 2x Tendrils in the deck. If I want to add another business spell I consider the only real available slot to be cutting a creature from the Culling package, but so far I have regretted that every time I try it.

Quote:

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Kusumoto plays a completely different PSI config. than I do. I'd look into that one if you prefer to play more maindeck Tendrils. He piloted it to a solid 26th place at an SCG if I recall.

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Yeah it's only a few pages back, really. I actually just watched his feature match again the other day. He definitely played 3 Tendrils and Unmask. I remember not liking his board, I think he was only running 3x Carpet of Flowers or something.

Edit: Urgh, my questions were already answered by reading further back, not much to see here - other than a new face in the SI family.

What's the "cheapest" SI build? I already have the LEDs and Therapies :tongue:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sherko7

What's the "cheapest" SI build? I already have the LEDs and Therapies :tongue:

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I don't think I would dare play anything but PSI. If you're really budget, I think belcher might be easier to assemble than getting your hands on 4 Cruel Bargain.

Played at my local tonight, going 3-1 for 3rd place, dropping one round to a great RUG Tempo player.

R1 – Maverick
Game 1: Turn 1 lethal Tendrils
Game 2: Turn 1, I'm one spell short of Tendrils in the IGG loop so Empty the Warrens for 18 tokens gets there.
2-0

R2 – Dredge
Game 1: Turn 1 lethal Belcher
Game 2: Mull to 4, win turn 3 on the play.
2-0

R3 – RUG Tempo
This guy is a good player and he has a dope sideboard.
Game 1: He had the nuts draw; Force + Ponder, Spell Snare and Daze on the play. I can play around Spell Pierce but he Spell Snares and I can’t recover through 2 countermagic with his fast clock.
Game 2: I get an early Carpet and he plays a bunch of fetches without cracking them. He wastes a Bayou and then I get another down with an early Chrome Mox. He counters my first D4 and then he Stifles three of my Carpet triggers while playing creatures. I manage to sneak through Empty the Warrens when he’s tapped out for a mere 6 tokens but he has Rough/Tumble to wipe my board. I had played an ESG so I could have traded with each of his creatures, basically putting the board at a standstill, but the Rough/Tumble wiped my entire board so I lost. However, I did have a lethal Belcher coming if I had just one more turn. Close game, but he had the nuts and the sideboard to beat Empty the Warrens.
0-2

R4 – Death and Taxes
Game 1: Turn 1 lethal Belcher
Game 2: I board lazily AND I keep a very risky 7. Kicking myself after this game.
Game 3: I chain 3 D4s together into IT for Cabal Ritual, into Cabal Ritual x2 threshed into a lethal Tendrils turn 1.
2-1

So overall I went 3-1.

With the exception of the DnT game I goldfished well for not playing at all for 3 weeks. In the non-U games I got 4 turn 1 kills out of 7 games so roughly 60% turn 1 kills, and then there was a game where I completely blew it against DnT and a game where I got tokens for inevitability against Maverick. I wasn’t happy with my games against RUG, obviously game 1 is just a dice roll but he got killer hands in both games and a damn good sideboard against me so I should have lost that one.

I also picked up a Deathrite Shaman to replace Odious Trow. It looks pretty beast and I actually want to keep it in against RUG since its good at shrinking Goyf and Goose.

So bi monthly legacy win a box.
I ran ill gotten, 3 belcher, 2 tendrils and 1 empty(2 sb)
Sb was 4 carpet, 4 duress, 1 taiga, 2 abrupt decay, 2 inquisition(weren't Spanish :'-( ), 2 empty

Round 1
Pretty nice guy who I know is on rug delver, he plays it every week and he knows what I'm playing so I figure he will mull to a force and daze.
He wins the die roll and leads w fetch, tropical, delver, pass
I go for it, the whole time leaving up daze mana in the form of esg or pact.
His nickname is known among the players bc of his sad demeanor but he looked especially sad when I was comboing off. I go for belcher, it stays, I can either go for it w arbor still on the deck and him at 19 or LG for it this turn and go off next turn if I rip a source. I go for it and he scoops before I reveal.
Game 2: I board in everything minus 1 empty and 2 decay.
I keep Drit, Crit, IT, Led, LG, carpet, esg. I LG into carpet and he removes force to force it. 4 turns and 3 donothings later,
I somehow manage to empty for 12 followed by tendrils for 14. I'm at 24, he is at 3. He scoops and shows me the 4 electrickey in his board he forgot to board in. I tell him about game 1 and we joke. He says next time he wants to see it and I tell him I will show him ;).

Round 2
This trolling mofo who I know is playing know and tell.
He knows my deck bc everyone saw me play it and was fascinated with it.
I win the roll and turn 2 belcher him. Before we side he shows me force and blue card and jokes about how he was greedy with his forces.
Game 2: I side in the blue plan. He turn 2 SnT griselbrand and I scoop.
Game 3: I choose to draw and keep a shitty 6 that ends in 14+ storm and a timely trickbind.

Round 3
A nice guy that is a dedicated DnT player. F*ck thalia.
Game 1: I win die roll. Tendrils wins game turn 1.
Game 2: he leads fetch, scrub, IoK, pass. I rebuttle with lethal tendrils.
F*ck thalia.

Round 4
Win and in time for top 4, first chance so I figure it time to go big.
I'm playing a guy from my home town who was playing this interesting deck.
Land tax, scroll rack, top, lotus vale, chants, terminus, entreat, trinisphere.
Game 1: he mulls to 6, realizes his sb is still in. Fixes it, goes to 5. I'm first. IGG saves my ass. I win. Tendrils.
Game 2: he says ok, I think I got you this game. I say show me the money. Chants me on upkeep. He then plays city of traitors, 3sphere.
Arbor takes 4 turns to surface, I attack 5 times, he is at 13. After much scroll racking and topping, he entreats for 6 off the top.
Game 3: I keep a shaky 6, he shows me chant and 3sphere and tells me, let's are you win this.
I combo off but don't have lethal tendrils so I grab a d4 off the IT. I have nothing but a petal on the field and the four cards off the top.
I get Crit, led, Crit and I show him that I can't win and he says let's see the last card, I pull a led and
Lament over how my d4 landed me Crit, Crit, led, IT with only a petal down.

2-2 sad panda. Overall I am happy but I wanna try a mox opal in the deck and see how it goes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

So bi monthly legacy win a box.
...
Round 4
Win and in time for top 4, first chance so I figure it time to go big.
I'm playing a guy from my home town who was playing this interesting deck.
Land tax, scroll rack, top, lotus vale, chants, terminus, entreat, trinisphere.
Game 1: he mulls to 6, realizes his sb is still in. Fixes it, goes to 5. I'm first. IGG saves my ass. I win. Tendrils.

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This sounds like he already presented, then found out he had an illegal SB, in which case he should have gotten a game loss, corrected his SB, and you'd go to Game 2 with no sideboarding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

So bi monthly legacy win a box.
I ran ill gotten, 3 belcher, 2 tendrils and 1 empty(2 sb)
Sb was 4 carpet, 4 duress, 1 taiga, 2 abrupt decay, 2 inquisition(weren't Spanish :'-( ), 2 empty

Round 1
Pretty nice guy who I know is on rug delver, he plays it every week and he knows what I'm playing so I figure he will mull to a force and daze.
He wins the die roll and leads w fetch, tropical, delver, pass
I go for it, the whole time leaving up daze mana in the form of esg or pact.
His nickname is known among the players bc of his sad demeanor but he looked especially sad when I was comboing off. I go for belcher, it stays, I can either go for it w arbor still on the deck and him at 19 or LG for it this turn and go off next turn if I rip a source. I go for it and he scoops before I reveal.
Game 2: I board in everything minus 1 empty and 2 decay.
I keep Drit, Crit, IT, Led, LG, carpet, esg. I LG into carpet and he removes force to force it. 4 turns and 3 donothings later,
I somehow manage to empty for 12 followed by tendrils for 14. I'm at 24, he is at 3. He scoops and shows me the 4 electrickey in his board he forgot to board in. I tell him about game 1 and we joke. He says next time he wants to see it and I tell him I will show him ;).

Round 2
This trolling mofo who I know is playing know and tell.
He knows my deck bc everyone saw me play it and was fascinated with it.
I win the roll and turn 2 belcher him. Before we side he shows me force and blue card and jokes about how he was greedy with his forces.
Game 2: I side in the blue plan. He turn 2 SnT griselbrand and I scoop.
Game 3: I choose to draw and keep a shitty 6 that ends in 14+ storm and a timely trickbind.

Round 3
A nice guy that is a dedicated DnT player. F*ck thalia.
Game 1: I win die roll. Tendrils wins game turn 1.
Game 2: he leads fetch, scrub, IoK, pass. I rebuttle with lethal tendrils.
F*ck thalia.

Round 4
Win and in time for top 4, first chance so I figure it time to go big.
I'm playing a guy from my home town who was playing this interesting deck.
Land tax, scroll rack, top, lotus vale, chants, terminus, entreat, trinisphere.
Game 1: he mulls to 6, realizes his sb is still in. Fixes it, goes to 5. I'm first. IGG saves my ass. I win. Tendrils.
Game 2: he says ok, I think I got you this game. I say show me the money. Chants me on upkeep. He then plays city of traitors, 3sphere.
Arbor takes 4 turns to surface, I attack 5 times, he is at 13. After much scroll racking and topping, he entreats for 6 off the top.
Game 3: I keep a shaky 6, he shows me chant and 3sphere and tells me, let's are you win this.
I combo off but don't have lethal tendrils so I grab a d4 off the IT. I have nothing but a petal on the field and the four cards off the top.
I get Crit, led, Crit and I show him that I can't win and he says let's see the last card, I pull a led and
Lament over how

I will finish it later. Battery is dying.

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Good shit beating up on RUG. Against Show and Tell you want to board much differently. They don't play many islands and are mostly countermagic light. Also, because its a combo deck, you can count an opponent who is willing to risk his ass on a fast combo win rather than a slow protected win. So perhaps board in your disruption and thats all. Then you'll still have a relatively fast clock but with protection to fuck with the opponents combo pieces. Otherwise, you could go with pre-board and race him. In round 4, yeah thats some shitty luck that you ran into a guy with Chants and 3sphere. Thats basically the worst kind of non-U opponent you could encounter; lock pieces + instant speed disruption. If what ESG was talking about happened then perhaps he wouldn't have even known what you were playing going into game 2.. Anyway, I'm confused about Game 3. If you don't have a lethal Tendrils off IT did you not have the red source to go for EtW? Also, if its turn 1, IGG isn't a terrible play here either. You get back the 3 most important cards and your opponent is forced into a 3 card hand. IT into blind D4 with X floating never gets there. I don't ever make that line of play. If you have like 1 floating, IGG is better, if you have a LED, EtW. If you have played Pact, then yeah you basically have to go for the D4 but its rare that it will produce a win.

@ESG: the ruling is that if you have yet to resolve a mulligan and realize your sb is still in, the right thing to do is state it, de side and mull down 1.
@vacrix: droopy(rug player) kept shaky hands and didn't see a force either game so I got off lucky.
And I didn't empty bc I absolutely had to start w a pact to start going. My opponent showed me plains, city, chant, 3sphere after we resolved mulls and said let's see you masturbate.

Also I was wondering about mox opal as a one of. Has it been tested and to what results?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

Also I was wondering about mox opal as a one of. Has it been tested and to what results?

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Mox Opal is fantastic as a 2-of in my robot build, but that's with 21-22 artifacts not including the Opals. I'd be scared to run it with fewer artifacts, so doubt it'd fit PSI well.

Alrighty. Thanks. I am just curious. I want this deck to become better and more consistant so I figure all ideas are up for consideration.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

Alrighty. Thanks. I am just curious. I want this deck to become better and more consistant so I figure all ideas are up for consideration.

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Absolutely. I'm just letting you know that even with 21+ artifacts supporting Mox Opal, I feel like I'm cutting it close.
My build really needs Opal to increase potential initial mana sources, so it's a calculated risk.
PSI has initial mana plays that are unavailable in my build, like ESG-->Pact-->Wild Cantor for black mana, so it's probably not necessary to take a risk on Opal.

Anyway, feel free to test it and report back. I'd love to be wrong:wink:

On the topic of Mox Opal.. I found it to be pretty inconsistent since you need 2 other cards for it to work. However.. I tested a singleton Mox Diamond in place of one of the Pact targets in PSI. It wasn't terrible but it didn't produce any noticeable changes. You only need one card to work with Mox Diamond, ie. Pact or LG. The problem was once I hit the post-board, you lose Pacts so its much more difficult to justify playing Diamond since its a counterable land. In the grind game, you want as many IMS as you can get your hands on.


Perhaps Mox Opal might find a place in some sort of post-board grind strategy.. Mox Opal and Lotus Bloom come to mind. I know Darth Vicious used to play these cards in his build. After finals are over, I'll fiddle around with those 2 cards post-board and see what I can come up with because Mox Opal is kinda like Chrome Mox 2.0 and Lotus Bloom is like a one shot Carpet of Flowers.

Wonderful. I have another question, What about Rhystic tutor? as a singleton in place of a win condition.
I understand it seems bad but I think its a possibility bc it can become any of the 3 we may need. Of course it loses power after turn 2 but im saying as a singleton.

Also, i am loving the 3-2-1 belcher-tendrils-empty
4 belcher is way too many and tendrils can be imprinted.
I also stopped running skyshroud cutter bc i found that in chains i would run it, i had to finish w belcher to feel safe bc often times it makes your storm need raise to 13 and other times 12 which isnt unreasonable but takes more time and effort with which i want to minimize.

I am loving the deck thus far and i love the look on my opponents face when i turn 1 them.

Stay Brewing my friends.

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

I also stopped running skyshroud cutter bc i found that in chains i would run it, i had to finish w belcher to feel safe bc often times it makes your storm need raise to 13 and other times 12 which isnt unreasonable but takes more time and effort with which i want to minimize.

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When I chain D4s into Tendrils it's typically at 13-15 storm, the extra five life has only been a problem a couple times. My biggest issue with Skyshroud Cutter is that you have to have a Forest to cast it, which can be a problem with D4 lines that start by culling Dryad Arbor with no Bayou in play. But, again, it almost never comes up. The utility of having a free creature that can be played the same turn you play a Bayou is absolutely worth the small concessions you make by including Cutter. Bayou + Summoner's Pact + Culling the Weak (and no other initial mana sources) can't generate mana on the turn you play the Bayou without Skyshroud Cutter.

One other kind of random thing I really like about Skyshroud Cutter over other options is the 2/2 body. I have definitely stolen a game or two with T1 Dryad Arbor followed by a Skyshroud Cutter. PSI beats is hilarious and sometimes (ok, very very rarely) the correct line.

Often times I storm for exactses or just over.
It's never stupid like 15+.
The cutter made it a necessity to go long or belcher.
I am an avid believer in less is more meaning that I want them deck with as little effort as possible.
I like tinder wall bc it nets me mana and it makes empty easier to cast.
I will be honest and say I haven't picked up the deck in over a week but I stand by these statements.

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...uisition_.html

SCG Vegas. Nicolas Prax takes 64th, and they do a Deck Tech interview. He has a suboptimal list though. 3 ESG is wrong if you want to actually cast Carpet of Flowers. And he plays Autumn's Veil over Duress so thats a little puzzling. 4 Belcher, 2 Tendrils config.. meh 4/1 or 3/2, or 2/3 is relatively standard. Also, Skyshroud Cutter > Young Wolf is wrong because Cutter lines of play come up far more frequently than Wolf lines of play. 3 Tombs is just a sideboard playstyle but he'd probably want a Bayou or two if he is to have enough green sources for his heavily green board. Abrupt Decay.. another sideboard playstyle but CB is terrible right now with BUG in DTB playing it maindeck so I don't know why he'd prepare for it. If you can sneak enough perpetuals through before they land Counterbalance, you can play right around it, even if they have a top. I've done it plenty of times vs. BUG control. You get to like 3-6 mana, and they can't consistently get a 3 or 4 ontop. Hell I've won through active CB, Jace, Lili in topdeck mode more than a handful of times. CB isn't as hard for SI as it is for something like ANT or TES because the other storm decks NEED acceleration to play their business spells unless they hit 5 perps for AdN. And even then, an opponent with a mana surplus can just counter the key spells that follow the AdN and attempt to stop you. In SI, you can just sneak through a D4, and then a Belcher right past Counterbalance. Not to say CB is a even or positive matchup, but I wouldn't specifically prepare for it in the current metagame when Abrupt Decay is played elsewhere already.

Either way, good to see the deck getting some attention.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lochlan

One other kind of random thing I really like about Skyshroud Cutter over other options is the 2/2 body. I have definitely stolen a game or two with T1 Dryad Arbor followed by a Skyshroud Cutter. PSI beats is hilarious and sometimes (ok, very very rarely) the correct line.

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PSI beats is actually the correct line of play when you get off an early EtW for like 6 to 8 tokens for some early pressure while you build up perpetual resources. I've had more than a few games where my opponent is constantly cantripping to find answers for my tokens and I just drop ESGs and such to compliment the game plan before they have threshold in RUG. When they are trying so hard to dig for an answer, sometimes they are forced to play creatures as blockers that way they can start chipping down the number of tokens and stabilize. When that happens, they are forced to play more lands which means a more mana from Carpet, which means they are taking lands and creatures with their cantrips instead of permission.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

SCG Vegas. Nicolas Prax takes 64th

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The tournament isn't even close to over. He was ranked 18th after round 4 with 9 points (so, a record of 3-1) and it's currently round 6.

Edit: apparently after round 5 he is 4-1. It will be interesting to see how rounds 6-8 turn out for him. So far so good.

Indeed. The dude who dropped me the link mentioned this as well. It seems like he knows what he's doing.. even if his list isn't what I would play.

I'd say if he encounters a lot of Goblins, Maverick, and Dredge then he'll probably wind up doing pretty well. The rest of the field has quite a lot of BUG right now so we'll see how it turns out.

He's at 12 points aft round 7 so 4-3 sadly but he can finish in the money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

He's at 12 points aft round 7 so 4-3 sadly but he can finish in the money.

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I hope he does a report. It would be interesting to see how his build performed from his perspective, considering some of the variations are questionable.

Do we have any way of getting a hold of this guy to pick his brain??

Hi guys, Im Nich and I played the PSI list and got a deck tech for last weekends SCG Vegas.

I'll start off by fully admitting that my list was sub-opitimal on several card choices, that being said I'll take any credit I can for trying to take this deck out into the real world. As many of you noted I should have had more Bayou's in the board and probably dropped the man plan as it wasnt utilized at all during the day. Autumn's veil should also just be duress and ill try to remeber the other changes that I would make for further tourneyments.

My appologies to anyone if I get the exact turn or gamestate slightly off as I mostly took notes on my mulligans and what turn I attempted/killed.

Round 1: Cedric Phillips-R/B Goblins

Pairing go up and I see that I am going to get to play against SCG/StreamTeam Cedric. I usually see him across from me at player meetings as our last names are close. Game 1 I go off on turn 2 with a lethal belcher, I believe I had both lands either in my opener or 1 land and 1 land grant. He was understanding of the fact that he was dead when I revealed my hand for my land grant and let him look over my deck while belcher activation resolved. G2: I attempt to go off turn 2 and the deck misfires, I remember that Cedric started with a Leyline of the void in the board and had a Mulligan into it while fully acknowledging that he had nothing for the matchup. This game with my misfire I believe that I conceded to my own pact trigger after the misfire. G3: Again Cedric opens on a leyline and I believe a vail, I have a few moxes and I believe a land, this game I had out a cantor and got down the belcher after a turn under rishadan port. I believe it ended on turn 4 although after the game I sheepishly had cedric point out that I had the kill a turn earlier, I tried to be as gracias as I could be and told him that I in no way wanted to slow roll him, he accepted and we were done.

2-1 in games

Round 2: Eric Chan- Show and Tell
This was a pretty awesome set of games. I opened on the draw with a turn 1 belcher for the win if he opens on anything non-blue. He plays a Sol land and passes, in my mind Im worried about playing against a stax or chalice deck, so I know that it would be now or never for my deck. I go all in and push with a belcher ready for an activation, he has force of will pitching either brainstorm or a show and tell I cant remember. I know hes on show and tell now. He untaps and his last cards are lotus petal, show and tell, omniscience and burning wish. GG once i see petals and grapeshot. G2:I start with a IC which is really strong against the show and tell decks since much like PSI your either dead or alive. after drawing I have indicated that I drew a Belcher, another D4 and a mox that along with my mana in had allowed me to play the belcher and activate for the win.

They cant have force of will all the time.

G3: This I dont have anything noted for but I do remember that I went off on turn 1 and I'll assume killed with a belcher as this would be my main kill all day. The reason I remember that it was turn 1 was that Eric commented on the fact that I had a turn 1 kill in every game that we played and that he only saw FoW in the second game.

2-1 for games

2-0 matches

Round 3: Tannon Grace- RUG Delver-13th place overall.
Tannon was a really cool guy, he explained that he was a poker play by profession and that he liked to play invitationals and more standard than legacy. He was really tired he would explain throughout our round.
This game I again have few notes for, the reason being that I was realizing that the runner for the scg coverage team was looming around our game and prior to the round starting I overheard a judge saying that he wanted to know what were some of the cooler things that he was seeing from the tables to several other judges.
He starts off tropical island, delver. I have a turn 1 belcher but no activation. I land the belcher and we begin the grind to see if i can fire off before he kills me with his delver, It flips and were off to the races. I draw dead, he attacks me, I draw a ritual and activate belcher, thinking this was all but done, he reveals his ace in the hole like a true stalwart poker player, Stifle the belcher activation. I calmly agree, under his breath or while im focusing on other things he mentions that he has another stifle and that I am dead, I let him attack me and then he passes back and I rip another mana source to try again, he reiterates that he had the stifle, I apologize for not listening and its off to game 2.

In between boarding I notice that Rubin from the SCG team is watching from a few feet back of the table and talking with the show runner, Its at this point that I realize that I am being scouted for coverage.
Game 2 I board in carpet of flowers and cabal therapy as well as autumn's veil. I start off with an early carpet of flowers and I believe he as some light pressure but I stabilize behind a D4 and eventually push through a belcher with no land in my deck. GG.
Game 3: Rubin sits down next to Tannon. Now I know that playing under pressure is part of the game but I could really tell that if i wanted coverage of PSI that I was going to have to win this last game. Again it came down to me having I believe 1 or 2 carpet of flower as well as my young wolf to kill to my culling the weak in order to belcher for the win. I can remember the tension in the game and my focus and determination to win in order to have a chance for a deck tech or feature match.

3-0

After the game tannon turns and ask Rubin if he would have played anything out differently, he seemed satisfied with the response that he had played to his best outs. Then I get asked if I would do a deck tech, now I know that a lot of people know of or keep this deck as a pet side project but I was really happy to be asked to talk about the deck and to get some exposure for it. I wont really talk about the deck tech other than to say that I put the deck together the day before and have mostly spent my time playing doomsday before going back to pick up PSI, some of the card choices are my own. As Vacrix has pointed out were at the time sub optimal and probably changed out for a more standard list. Just play whatever your most comfortable with.

Round 4 Richard-1st Place overall

Richard was a really nice guy and a great opponent to play against. As we sat down he asked if I had just finished a deck tech, I replied that I had, he scoffed that he should have actually looked to see what deck I had laid out on the table.
Game 1: I have a note that I played a D4 dropping me to 10 life he spends his turn casting a show and tell for and Emrakul and I put out a belcher and then my only other note is that I misfired on a belcher I believe it was for 9dmg. Game 2: This would be the game that I let go for the stupidest reason.

It was my misplay that cost me the game. The situation becomes that I have a land and an LED and a carpet of flowers on the field, along with a dark ritual, D4 and a belcher in my hand. I keep weighing my options and lines of play realizing that if I simply wait for him to play a show and tell that I will put in a belcher and activate on the spot. After spending time debating between a D4 or my belcher I foolishly pick up my belcher from hand, announce my intent to activate carpet of flowers and then put belcher on the stack. No sooner had I done this then I knew I was sunk, he forces pitching show and tell. Untaps and shows in a grislebrand. I die to the 7/7 after a hit and a dead draw.

3-1
Again Richard was a great guy and it was a good game, although I knew that if I didnt misplay that my deck would get me the other game and the match.

Round 4: Bruce on R/B Goblins

Apparently R/B Goblins is the deck to play when people like BUG Decks.

Game 1 I mull to 5 and have a slow hand, he starts with lackey and beats me down to 16 before I have a belcher kill on turn 3, it felt a little dirty just winning on a mull to 5 on turn 3 after Im sure it looked like I was really far behind but game 1 unless they have the nuts I dont think goblins has any way to end the game faster than you can stumble onto a win.

Game 2: I have an Iggy loop that goes IT into Culling the weak, Dark ritual and a D4. The D4 is a IT, LED, Culling the Weak and a D4. I kill my young wolf 2 times that turn and go hellbent on the tutor to get a tendrils for lethal storm.

4-1

Round 5: Christian Keeth

After winning back the prior round I felt that I may have over thought my lose and that I was still in the running to finish well.

Game 1 He starts off with a thoughseize and takes my first mana accelerent, next its followed up by a hymn that hits my only 2 win conditions in hand, from that point I knew I would have to get lucky to stay in the game. He didnt have much pressure and was only able to play a delver and it would take it several turns to flip. His delver hits me to 19 and I draw a D4 for the turn, I know that I have to go off now if possible as he had exhausted his hand. My notes show that I cast 4 D4 and never found a win condition I die with 6 black mana floating and more in hand. I was all dressed up with nowhere to go.

Game 2 This game I remember for the fact that I had 2 carpet of flowers, he again had some pressure but this time from nimble mongoose. On the turn that I had to go off I started with an Autumn's veil , he force back,so i hedged my bets and went all in only to see another force and blue card as his only 2 cards in hand.

Im 4-2 and I know that im out of the running for top 8

Round 7: Arthur Naugle: U/R Burn, or what I thought was RUG Delver 14th in final standings I believe.

This match really comes down to Arthur having one game 1 after I had a bad D4 and he burned me out with a few bolts. Game 2 though was another punt on my part, I was sculpting a hand that was only lacking protection, I was attempting to wait for either a cabal therapy or a veil when I passed to Aruthur while I was at I believe 7, now I had thought that he was on RUG for the first game as all that I saw was Volcanic Island, so in play he has a bloodstained mire, this i chalked up to him not having the right fetches and saying earlier in the match that he had borrowed the deck from a friend for the tourney. So I pass expecting that the worst he can do is drop me to 1 if the has 2 bolt effects, he cracks his fetch and gets a basic mountain. Alarms start ringing in my head, " hes a burn deck you idiot why didnt you just try to win." he bolts me , flips his delver off a chain lightning and fireblasts me. I die with the win in hand.

I ask him after if he had the force or any counter at all, he didnt. The deck is better than me. If you have the win in hand you should try to win. Just my 2 cents in hindsight.

4-3 and I guess its a top 32 finish that Im looking for now.

Round 8: Luke: Sam Black Zombies

This is a match that I know I should be able to win, I start off strong with a turn 2 belcher for the win in game 1. Game 2 I start off with a D4 into a belcher misfire, I get to see that his only relevant board cards are surgical extraction. Game 3 is determined by my misplay of forgetting that I want to kill him with a belcher and that i dont need to keep petals in hand to increase a storm count. I loose a hand of double summoners pact and double lotus petal to cabal therapy. Sadly thats it, I die with a wimper rather than a bang.

4-4
50 dollars and I sign off on 60th place.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, again I apologize for my lack of indepth notes, everyone that I played against was great, the deck was a blast to pick up and I was beyond happy to get a deck tech and shine a bit of light on this old deck.

Burning-Tree Emissary (R/G) (R/G)

Creature - Human Shaman

When Burning-Tree Emissary enters the battlefield, add RG to your mana pool.

Those who regard the Gruul as savage simpletons underestimate the subtle power of their shamans.

Illus. Izzy. 2/2

Omg! What if this is a cycle?!?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

Burning-Tree Emissary (R/G) (R/G)

Creature - Human Shaman

When Burning-Tree Emissary enters the battlefield, add RG to your mana pool.

Those who regard the Gruul as savage simpletons underestimate the subtle power of their shamans.

Illus. Izzy. 2/2

Omg! What if this is a cycle?!?

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I doubt it's a cycle. The card makes zero sense in blue black design wise. Even if it was a cycle, there won't be a green black one since golgari isn't in this set. UG would be sort've neat although even then it probably wouldn't make the cut in this deck.

I am just saying its something that has been talked about previously in the thread. A creature that has a EtB that gives mana and gives us a solid CTW target. It will find a better home in pure belcher but its something new to look at. That and whispering madness although I believe it to be a worse slithermuse. All avenues must be sought to find the perfect direction.

Hi all,

I'm currently running a LED-less list due to me having a dog of a time tracking some down - that aside, my list is currently in a state of flux as I try out new ways of configuring the remaining spots.
-4 LED, -1 Pact, -2 Belcher (1 in the main)
In their place I'm running more mana sources, +1 Bayou (2 in main), +1 Taiga, +2 Simian Spirit Guide (I'm running 2 EtW) and the last slot has been in flux with creatures, PiF, Mirri's Guile etc etc. I actually really enjoying Mirri's Guile in there.
My biz is 3 Tendrils, 2 EtW & a single Belch.
What else could I try to get the most of out being 1 Pact and 4 Led's down?

I have a few questions re:the current state of PSI.
I've seen many of the older lists running both a Cutter and one of Odious Trow/SlitherHead/Deathrite Shaman in the main.
But many of the more recent lists have dropped one of these, with quite a few just running Cutter.
Why is this?

DRS has been great in goldfishing - but I'm finding over and over, that DRS is a magnet for removal and counter.
I never had this issue with Trow or Slitherhead. For the times I want to actually tap it and get mana etc etc., I can't keep it alive until my next turn.
For those of you who run DRS, have you also found this to be a problem?
Is this a reason enough for anyone out there to consider not running it in the main?

Cheers

This deck is totally unplayable without a set of LEDs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slave

I've seen many of the older lists running both a Cutter and one of Odious Trow/SlitherHead/Deathrite Shaman in the main.
But many of the more recent lists have dropped one of these, with quite a few just running Cutter.
Why is this?

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Because those pilots have been happier with the utility of one creature over the other, of course. I'm playing both Deathrite Shaman and Skyshroud Cutter in my list. There is no consensus on the "correct" way to configure the creature suite.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slave

DRS has been great in goldfishing - but I'm finding over and over, that DRS is a magnet for removal and counter.

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If your Deathrite Shaman is getting countered and/or your opponents are leaving in removal for it, you're in great shape. I would almost always prefer that my opponents counter my sheep to be culled instead of my business.

Thanks.

Yeah I kinda assumed the deck lost a bit of bite without LED's.

Cabal Therapy can hit anything potentially, and has flashback to increase storm with no mana cost possibly.....
Why Duress over Cabal Therapy in the side?

I don't think PSI wants to board in hand destruction versus a hate bear deck (although I have considered it many times) so hitting creatures doesn't seem too important. On the other hand, if you're playing a Robot SI list or some other configuration with a lot of actual creatures (thus enabling flashback more readily), Cabal Therapy is awesome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lochlan

I don't think PSI wants to board in hand destruction versus a hate bear deck (although I have considered it many times) so hitting creatures doesn't seem too important........

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On this I agree - but the ability to get rid of Teeg (read: Green Sun's Zenith), Thalia or a Glacial Chasm (postboard) seems like it's definitely worth it for me, even if we don't use it for it's flashback.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lochlan

.....if you're playing a Robot SI list or some other configuration with a lot of actual creatures (thus enabling flashback more readily), Cabal Therapy is awesome

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I guess this is where I may differ - I've been running a couple more creatures than some lists (that's until I track down a set of LED's! :mad:)
I agree with what Vacrix was saying about Young Wolf (in that Cutter is much more useful), but I've been liking having it in the main with Therapy in the side to make use of it against control or combo.
I might just try a Kobold and see how that works out.

Sometimes hitting creatures is crucial though. I've been playing 3 Thoughtseizes in my current post-board and I've won more than a few games having had the ability to take creature with it. Sometimes you run into U-control decks that play Thalia, Meddling Mage, Clique, etc. Sometimes even taking SFM is the right call because they completely lose their clock, or if they don't have the mana, I wait for them to find Batterskull, then take it with discard so they lose their easiest win condition.

I have yet to reach a conclusion about Lotus Bloom but I haven't had much time lately to test the board. The good thing about the board so far is that Thoughtseize is versatile enough to attack their potential clock as well as their permission. Turn 1 Bloom(s), if resolves, is basically game if you back it up with the right cards. You play out some perpetual resources here and there, perhaps a discard spell. Then on turn 4ish, Bloom tries to resolve. You can fight over its resolution with your perps, perhaps a Drit/Crit to draw out as much permission as possible.. but ultimately the opponent has to deal with you having 8 cards, one resolving, any perps you've acquired.. that or you get very aggressive with your perpetual resources and discard early on to prepare for the Lotus Bloom.


Lets look at an example hand..

Hand:
Petal, Chrome Mox, Thoughtseize, Duress, Cabal Ritual, Elvish Spirit Guide, Lotus Bloom

Seems good. a perpetual resource, 2 protection spells, acceleration, and some Daze protection.

T1: Chrome Mox (imprint Crit), suspend Lotus Bloom
T2: Draw, Cruel Bargain, Duress.. taking Spell Pierce, seeing a hand of Force, Force, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Daze.. so he has 4 countermagic, left, 3 if he doesn't draw another blue card.
T3: Draw Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, he Dazes, I remove ESG, and take one of the Forces. I play out the Lotus Petal just to avoid running into a Flusterstorm if I have to play around it later.
T4: Lotus Bloom resolves, no countermagic. He's rather counter the business and not lose to Belcher because he can't counter it with Flusterstorm if I have more acceleration in hand, which is Dark Ritual, Cruel Bargain.. I draw Infernal Contract.

Combo turn:
We know the opponent still has Force and Flusterstorm, and if they've drawn a blue card then they can play both. We've encounter a light clock, heavy permission.

Bloom, Mox, Petal in play. Access to BB BBB, Drit in hand. So we have 7 black mana. and 2 business spells. However, if the opponent has a blue card, then we will run into Flusterstorm... Bloom, CB, FoW, Drit, IC means we'll have to pay 6 fucking mana. So.. I'll crack the Bloom for BBB, play Cruel Bargain 2 spells on the stack. The opponent has a tough choice here. Flusterstorm or Force of Will. Flusterstorm invites me play Dark Ritual to pay for it. Force completely shuts me down. Force is probably the safer play. So we encounter Force, he removes a Ponder. I'll wait that way I don't run full force into the Flusterstorm.

T5: Draw LED
LED, Dark Ritual, Infernal Contract, he Flusterstorms, I pay 4 with LED/Petal. Draw 4

LG, Carpet of Flowers, Carpet of Flowers, IT

LG --> Bayou, Carpet, pass to second mainphase, play Carpet

T6: Draw Petal
IT --> Belcher... since Carpets add 2 each, plus Petal/Bayou. we have access to 6 mana per turn.. in a savage topdeck mode.

GG from here

Granted, its an example hand against a hand chalk full of countermagic just to recall one of the games I had on Cockatrice. It was similar to this one. Against a RUG player, I encountered basically 6 or 7 countermagic. So imagine exactly what I just described, only he counters the IT, and the next Belcher, then I finally sneak through a Belcher. Still tweaking the board but I like it so far.