Sorry, but I don't get the "Fettergeist is teh nutzs!" thing.
It's 3/4 flier that charges you 1 each turn - where's the bonus?
There's a list of approximately 99 cards I'd play before this guy.
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Sorry, but I don't get the "Fettergeist is teh nutzs!" thing.
It's 3/4 flier that charges you 1 each turn - where's the bonus?
There's a list of approximately 99 cards I'd play before this guy.
He does sound suspect. I think Porphyry Nodes and Humilty should work just fine along side StP and Terminus.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Fettergeist only taxes you if there is another creature in play. As long as he's solo he's free. I can see him having some applications in stabilizing against aggro decks, but I think it'll be hard to find a place for him I'm the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Edit: As comparison - for Tempo swings. A Tarmogoyf is often a 3/4 vanilla on the ground, and the swings in tempo he produces against agro decks are insane. I don't see how Fettergeist is that much different except being one more and flying.
the 3/4 body is insane against rug, they have to 2x1 themselves in order to get rid of it.
It was better 1 month ago when rug lists weren't packing REB... It's possible that fettergeist is not good enough for that same reason, right now.
I've been testing a Stoneblade list with cavern of souls and restoration angels, as i wanted to capitalize on the 3/4 body since RUG is a big part of my metagame, and the value you get from blinking SFm, vendilion and snapcaster is also a nice bonus.
Forcing through a vendilion clque with cavern of souls is also insane.
Have any of you been trying out 1-2 Enlightened Tutor in the main? You get to run a lot of some great utility cards without having to commit to too much deck space if you want. Things like Batterskull (Which is really to beat the round clock, since you'll have this + two tutors to find it as additional win conditions), Ensnaring Bridge (Great to lockdown decks that don't have mainboard answers), Oblivion Ring (Because Jace and random permanents are a thing), Expedition Map (If you want to be cute to have a poor man's way to find your Karakas), and even Porphyry Nodes or Engineered Explosives (If you just need to answer that Mongoose) can all be great targets and worth including for various matchups.
More importantly I like how they work with the countertop system. As much as I really enjoy Counterbalance, I feel like it can be a liability in many matchups due to speed and necessity for board control. Running 2 tutors lets you find balance as though you had 3-4 of them, but with only having to run 1-2 in the main. Additionally, Sensei's Divining Top is amazing, so I wouldn't even mind having the tutors work as tops #5-6.
It frees a bit more board space and/or lets you find bullets even more consistently if you decide to run the 3rd or 4th tutor in the board. I've been very happy with the tutors in general, as their flexibility is generally worth the card disadvantage you may accrue if your artifact or enchantment is countered. This is also usually a small risk if you only run 1-2, since you won't see the tutor all the time anyway. Casting a tutor a second time with a SCM can be pretty powerful too.
I toyed with some e.tutor builds for a bit. My testing was limited so I could have completely missed something, but I used to play a shitload of countertop thopters and I just think (and the testing made me feel it even more) e.tutor is reserved for that build. To bring in even 1-2, and then other cards into the main to complement it, you have to sacrifice a lot of what makes this deck work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
When I first started developing this deck I had an e.tutor sb, but I also rather quickly deviated from that plan. It's just too narrow and nerfs your options. I think it's a trap card that we're better off forgetting for this deck.
I toyed with E Tutor as well. And I came to the same conclusion. It's just not as good as it seems it could be. I just don't like the mechanic. With Brainstorm, Top, Jace and fetches we shouldn't have all that much trouble finding our answers anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teknique
With reference to having main deck answers to things - what happens when you go into the match-up where all your main deck answers are dead? - so now you've got 3-4 dead cards, in addition to a few tutors that can only get top or CB - so once you've got those out they are also dead.... Don't like that possibility.
Edit: I don't think batterskull fits in this deck much... If I'm tapping five mana for something, I want there to be three 4/4 flyers in play when it resolves.
Hey I've been thinking of adding a second Karakas to my mainboard. I am playing a red-splash atm and my base looks like this:
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
I do not want to cut a single basic, it's already on the limit. Same for Volc. Maybe an Arid Mesa?
Greetings
I don't think you need a 2nd Karakas. It's not an auto win, just a really nice synergy we can get going sometimes. You probably should however, run a 4th Tundra, and the 2nd plains might not be necessary. I'd suggest 7-8 Fetches total, maybe a 5th Island.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
What do you really feel like you're sacrificing that "make the deck work"? Personally, I always find top to be good enough that even if I just go tutor -> Top I'm happy. That easily recovers any lost value from the tutor. As for having to run a lot of cards to make the tutor feel better, I don't feel like this is necessarily true. I think top, counterbalance, and one permanent answer such as engineered explosives or oblivion ring is all you really need. At most that's one slot, since most decks are already running a copy of either EE/ORing or counterbalance in the main. Adding other options is also possible, based on a meta call. You don't have to run a lot of toolbox in the main. I do also think that having the tutors greatly enhances your sideboarding options and consistency after board, which is always a huge plus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teknique
As for batterskull, I put it mostly as a way to combat the clock. I hear many people complain about time with this decks (especially when win-cons are countered), and having 1-2 tutors with a Batterskull greatly increases your threat density. Batterskull is costly, but it actually is very useful, even though it may not make the cut here. It is great in making the game unwinnable for your opponent after you've stabilized a board, and is tough to deal with when it sticks. It can also stall out a board quite well just on its own. The downside is that 5 mana is a lot, but the lifegain and recursion is not to be trifled with against a lot of decks in my experiences. Yes, there is Entreat the Angels too, which is probably better than Batterskull without tutors, but at the same time, a Batterskull in a starting hand can feel a lot better than an Entreat the Angels, since you don't always have Brainstorm effects available.
Pretty sure he's talking about card advantage. And I agree with him, especially when it comes to arguing against Enlightened Tutor in the main. Having one in the sideboard is a completly different thing and can work, given enough targets that make sense. Right now, I don't really see it working.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
I think if you are considering running Enlightened Tutor in the main, you might as well just play Thopters. Otherwise, I'd just stick to this.
-Matt
Yes. My first try on this archetype was a creatureless variant with tutors, toolbox and Mishras.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
//Lands
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
5 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Wasteland
//Counters
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
//Soft Lock
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
//Card Quality
4 Brainstorm
2 Enlightened Tutor
//Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
//Win
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
//Toolbox
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Humility
//Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
2 Disenchant
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spell Pierce
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Energy Flux
I played it in one tournament and ended up 16/67 (4-2-1), which was a nice success for me. The matchups were:
BUG-Delver (1:2)
UWbg-Landstill (1:2)
ANT (1:0)
Nic.Fit (2:0)
Sneak Attack (1:1)
UR-Delver (2:0)
Goblins/b (1:0)
What I liked about the tutor-version was the flexibility and the easy access to your engine and to your toolbox. However, it seemed impossible to include Snapcaster Mages (a because of Humility, b because of a lack of slots), and the idea of including Crucible + Wasteland seems a bit over the top (danger of cool things) in retrospect.
At the moment I prefer a build with Snapcasters, 2 Oblivion Rings main, and 3 Humility in the SB.
Sorry for the noobish question but are there any viable walls (creatures with defender) against tempo decks? My dream wall would be a 2cc 2/4 with shroud, flying and lifelink as that would protect it against lightning bolt and it could block a nimble mongose and kill a delver of secrets :-) I did a search on gatherer and I found considerable:
Wall of Essence
Wall of Omens
Wall of Shards
There are no walls out there worthy to replace spells from the standard list.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirdie
try Plumeveil if you really need one, it's actually really good against rug.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirdie
Your dream sadly doesn't exist, and, as said before, there is no wall worth replacing the standard cards with.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirdie
The best alternative I can think of is Perimeter Captain
There's actually a 3/4 wall for 3 which doesn't have defender, if you need the clock, but which has the small drawback of a circumstantial upkeep. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by kirdie
Phyrexian Ironfoot, anyone?
Seriously, that's all just crap.
Fettergeist?Quote:
Originally Posted by anwei
Quote:
Originally Posted by anwei
Serendib Efreet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
Fettergeist is, legitimately, a body of the most important size for efficient creatures in the format right now. He's the smallest/cheapest a "big" creature can be to beat bolt, goose, and delver; he's the most important cmc that needs padding; and he's a respectable clock where one is needed. The upkeep is a non-issue unless an army of angels makes him irrelevant anyway. The real drawback is that he's a creature, who requires a slot and costs mana. I think that if you decide you want a creature to hold off creatures or attack, it's sfm, goyf, or fettergeist.
Has anyone tested the red splash with Bonfire of the Damned? I have one left and I think I may try it out of the board.
If you're already splashing red you could try it I guess. It seems like it would usually just be Terminus #5 for more mana (even 2 is way more than 1), and there would still be corner cases where protections come into play (mom). The only upside I see to running it is the ability to kill planeswalkers, which is semi irrelevant as we are the current pw deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by rxavage
All in all, I'd rather just run an actual WoG out of the board over a bonfire.
Alrighty, been tweaking the deck. It's not that much different, but there are some changes. So here's my take on the deck right now.
Main Deck
Lands
4 Tundra
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Plains
4 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory
Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
Enchantments
4 Counterbalance
Artifacts
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds
Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Creatures
3 Snapcaster mage
Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Disenchant
2 Humility
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Vendilion Clique
Wall of DenialQuote:
Originally Posted by kirdie
Late, but I win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pherion
I am completely ripping you off, well almost I've been tweaking my list after I posted and it is very close to yours.
CREATURES
3 Snapcaster Mage
INSTANTS
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
SORCERIES
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
ARTIFACTS
4 Sensei's Divining Top
ENCHANTMENTS
3 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring
PLANESWALKERS
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth
LAND
5 Island
1 Plains
1 Mystic Gate
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
SIDEBOARD
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Humility
1 Enlightened Tutor
@ Teknique
I hadn't thought of it that way, thanks.
Your dream looks a lot like my nightmare.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirdie
Don't think dudes other than Snapcaster/Clique are worth playing. They make Terminus less efficient. Also, giving opponent's stuff to shoot at is not very fun, especially vanilla beaters. If you really need a clock, play factories. I've been pleasantly surprised how much they change games. Especially when you really need to deal with a goose it can trade with one or if you have 2 copies, it can be a 4/4 and hold off a goose. It's a fantastic card. It also can knock down opposing walkers, which is pretty useful.
Rip away rxavage :) That's why we're here!
On a side note, I made some angel tokens last night, thought yall nerds out there might get a kick out of them :) I just need to decide what to do for some Soldier Tokens! :wink:
http://arolkay.com/SiteImage/Gaius.jpg
http://arolkay.com/SiteImage/Six.jpg
http://arolkay.com/SiteImage/Starbuck.jpg
You thought wrong.
You obviously don't get the pun :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
Anyway, I may be going against the tide here, but I feel Entreat the Angels is the weakest card in this deck. I've been playing 2 forever but I usually win by Jace out. I usually answer everything they play and get there by Jace out. Entreat is usually a finisher or "victory cigar". The card has very seldom won me any game outright. By the time I can set up a crushing entreat, I usually am already dead or I've already established a pretty favourable board state.
Entreat is shit against RUG, you never have the mana to pull of a huge Entreat, it is really really hard. Entreat is also not very good against GW. Their dudes are bigger while wastelands, Thalia and Teeq make a huge entreat very unlikely. Entreat is hopeless against combo. All that fancy end of turn crap is assuming you get out of the early game, which is when you should be already winning. Against stoneblade or the mirror, entreat is ok. VS stoneblade the card is fantastic because its big and badass and can kickass against lingering souls and Jace.
In the mirror, Entreat is really meh, because if gives them something to use Terminus on. It's a real non factor as the key cards here are counterbalance and Jace.
My verdict: Entreat is the weakest card in the deck. It's too much trouble to set up and not worth it. It rarely wins me games and gets shuffled away early as chaff to often. I always hate seeing it. I've decided to main 3 counterbalances and they've taken over the Entreat slots and also replaced my 3rd counterspell. Counterbalance is just a kicking against so many decks, is cheap as hell to cast and actually does something against combo. Even screwing with cantrips against Sneak Show is already fantastic.
EtA is a core card to me and 2 is the perfect number.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
It does what no other spell does and allows us to use Jace's BS aggressively (meaning no need to use fateseals anymore). It's fantastic against several archetypes and being able to kill "now" has won me quite a few games, when Jace wouldn't have been able to get there.
I can't see myself going below 2 for the time being.
Well, that's a pretty radical view of the world you got there... let me comment on a few things:
1) Entreat does nothing against RUG. Meh. Yes, it does not stop a T1 Delver, and not a T2 Tarmogoyf or whatever but I cannot count the times I've hardcasted Entreat for 5 Mana to get a single Angel on the battlefield. And it won me the game vs lategame Delvers/Mongos. Yóu could argue --> Lategame --> You should be winning already! But sometimes both decks have about 0 handcards and are topdecking. And if I topdeck Entreat there or have it in hand already in T7+ it's good.
2) Entreat is not very good vs GW. Blurgh. I do play both decks, but Terminator is my one to go. Due to Entreat. Maverick can deal with a Counterbalance, it can fight through a Jace, it can survive multiple Terminus'. But it can't deal with a bunch of Angels... Never ever. I would suggest you to test this particular MU a little more.
Greetings
I totally agree on how good CB is atm.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
Otoh I'm not sure how you got your impression of Entreat. I agree with your assessment against combo (though sometimes it's a great way to get some pressure down without tapping out on your turn), the mirror (generally gets Terminused, though it can definitely take games out of nowhere) and StoneBlade (it's incredible there). I really don't share your opinion against RUG/Maverick.
Entreat is utterly ridiculous against Maverick. If they keep a Teeg in play, that's basically the main way you lose anyway and therefore what you need to focus on stopping. Thalia is pretty bad against Entreat, I'm fine getting 12-16 power of flyers instead of 16 to 20. How many games against Maverick have you actually lost after making 3+ Angels, eot or not? Because for me that number is very close to 0 (not sure if I've actually lost one). If you haven't interacted at all and hope Entreat is enough, sure, you probably loose. Nothing else will get you out of that either, though. In any game in which you have resolved even one Terminus, Entreat will just crush them.
As for RUG, sure, you rarely get to make a bunch of Angels and just lethal them. Trying to do that is misplaying the matchup, though. Just making a single Angel totally stops their attacking with non-Goyf guys, god forbid you're able to make 2. 1-2 Angels is almost always enough to lock up the game and can often be done quite easily while playing around Daze/Pierce given the stalling power of the rest of the deck. Don't be so damn greedy against them. :p
I agree with how bomby entreat is, but I'm bumbed out by the effort it takes to set up. For example, I hate opening a hand with entreat. It's immediately chaff until the late game. Terminus is fine because at 1 mana, the card is super easy to cast out of no where. Entreat takes alot of mana and alot of setup, it feels weak to me IMO.
My argument is that I can win games easily without entreat, I haven't really needed it badly. If I'm winning games easily without entreat and entreat rarely bails me out of a bad situation, should it really be maindecked?
It's a radical view since its a core card, but could be discussed more. I've always been more of a slim style control player. I try to cut the chaff if possible. I can see squeezing entreat back in replacing the 4th snapcaster and my lone path.
So I've read examples of how entreat is crushing after a terminus. A jace or counterbalance is just as powerful after a wipe. And against rug, sure it's fine assuming you are not brainstorming early to fix your mana issues. That's an ideal situation when you've got entreat floating on your library with top. You are not taking into account the nightmare hands with multiple miracle cards and no brainstorm.
I could handle 6 miracle, but when shit hits the fan, sometimes too many miracle cards screw up your brainstorm choices. Terminus is a must play because the card is the one that saves your ass in any situation for a cheap 1 mana. Entreat is not this card, it needs careful setup and a 4-5 mana to be most effective. You also can't have it sitting at the back of your hand to just plunk it out when you need it. You need to keep it floating with a top or you need to sandbag a brainstorm.
This is my biggest gripe. When shit gets real early, you can't afford to baby sit your entreat. It always gets shuffled away with brainstorm because I need live cards NOW.
Entreat is much more swingy than Jace is. When you drop a Jace, sure he can protect himself, but if the board isn't in your favor he's not going to last long. On a stable board position it's completely reasonable to fateseal someone out of the game.
Entreat on the other hand for x=3+ will swing the game immediately.
That's what I like most about it : it gets you out of otherwise lost situations. Card is the opposite of win-more. Finishers in control decks usually require you to have already attained complete control of the game, which is a pretty huge condition. Besides regardless of their effectiveness the deck is already light on finishers, I would never dare to rely solely on jace (and the occasional SCM). Do you play elspeth at least?Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenHornet
That's why I've re-added SCMs after trying a creatureless build for a while. +3 Brainstorms basically settle the "What if I draw EtA early?" debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei