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Great job! As for Miracles... I am 0-X against that deck. Havn't found a great way to beat it yet. Blood moon is generally dead, painter gets swords or countered, counter balance lock is nearly game over... It's been rough for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial
Anyone have different experiences or suggestions?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish
What part of miracles is giving you trouble? It's about a 65-35 matchup. One thing you may want to try is only blasting balance, snapcaster, clique, or jace (entreat can be handled by bridge). Don't go blindly activating grindstone. You can use it to gain card advantage by forcing a 2-1 removal on painter while you continue the beatdown
I usually donnot board all the moon effect out, it can still prevent them from shuffling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish
And as for the mu and the game plan against miracle, I totally agree with Cook here.
For me they have always stalled the game long enough for a jace or helm/rip combo.
What's the board strategy?
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Currently I don't have any dedicated sb for miracle, because my meta does'nt allow me to do so...I just bring in extra blast and revoker or relic of progenitus. At worst, Relic is just a cycle, but if they have snm, relic can do a lot of thing (surgical or flashback).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish
If you really hate that deck, play more koth and second Jaya or even vexing shusher... but imo they are generally weak against nearly all the other decks
The most important thing vs. miracles is to NOT board out blood moon (preventing them to shuffle witch fetch/top manipulation) or even winning/slowing them down straight away. I play extra revokers sb so those come in to shut down SDT mainly . Not letting them use shuffle effects with top is huge so Revoker/blood moon are key alongside koths etx>
Has anybody tried splashing in a couple Tarmogoyf? I'm not too familiar with the deck, but it seems like the deck often wins with beat downs. Depending on the build, it looks like the deck could have a lot of card types that could make their way to the graveyard.
Besides the problems of a 2nd color with moon, you can't actually recruit for tarmogoyf after a few types of cards are in the grave. And of course I am sure others will say this so I might as well say it first to end the discussion, you can just run dragonlord, more koth's, jaya etc etc etcQuote:
Originally Posted by Indent
Got a double header this weekend, saturday at the Local and sunday a GPT Paris here in town.
I was wondering if there were some examples of good u/r iPainter decks. I know there is a u/r painter, but that's usually without the Imperial Recruiter, but I happen to have the IR and blue/red dual/fetch lands.
UR Painter is a completely different deck, and there is a seperate thread in the established forum for it. Recruiter in UR is kind of a dead card, as they run very few creatures (sometimes none aside from the Servants and Welders).Quote:
Originally Posted by Indent
In the old thread this is the blue list Drew played to some success.Quote:
Originally Posted by Indent
Mana 25
4 Tomb
3 City
4 Fetch
2 Volcanic Island
8 Mountain
4 Lotus Petal
Moon Plan 4
2 Blood Moon
2 Magus
Painter Plan 11
4 Servant
4 Blast
2 Grindstone
1 Jaya
Engine Cards 9
4 Recruiter
4 Top
1 Trinket Mage
Welder Plan 3
2 Welder
1 Metamorph
General Utility 8
4 Misstep
2 Magma Jet
2 Spellskite
SB 15
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Revoker
3 Blast
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormods Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
Obviously you will have tinker with it to replace the missteps and the metamorph is weaker now. Trinket Mage is the obvious inclusion in Imperial Painter since you can recruit for it. Other blue options back in the day when zoo was popular was a show and tell with emrakul and intuition sideboard. Any splash you attempt will have to be kept to a minimum because of moons and most likely supplemented with lotus petals
Creatures:10
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Spells:30
1 Mox Opal
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Brainstorm
4 Grindstone
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Grim Monolith
4 Transmute Artifact
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Intuition
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
Lands:20
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
3 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard:13
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Flusterstorm
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Spellskite
3 Blood Moon
1 Ensnaring Bridge
This is the list I became very happy with and is the final UR painter list I played in GP DC to get knocked out in round 8 5-3.
Recruiter is a bad card in UR. The deck is a totally different beast. You have brainstorms, intuition and Transmute Artifact. The deck is geared to be much more combo centric and linear. You find you pieces quickly and combo off using counters to protect.
With 4 welder, you should hit 1 and intuition and transmute just win on the spot most of the time. Turn 3 comboing is pretty consistent. You have filtering, drawing, tutoring and mana excel.
Now, why I feel mono red is the "better" deck right now. Blood moon and board lock are much better against tempo decks. I really struggled with UR post TNN. UR is also very linear, so if a deck can disrupt a few key cards you are left with little backup plan. Wurmcoil can't beat StPS nor a battered up TNN.
The one good thing about the deck; it is almost impossible to lose to sneak attack. Post board you will (high probability) always be putting a bridge in play. Either casting it, weldering it into play, or off of SnT. That's even if you let them resolve a SnT.
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Won my local today, and there's a GPT tomorrow just around the corner. Hooray for double headers!
A short recap:
r1: Hypergenesis.
It was over in two games. I knew the guy to mostly be playing SnT type decks, so I kept a hand with fast mana, a Blood Moon to bait counters and an Ensnaring Bridge and Top to dig into a win-con. As predicted, the Moon eats a Force of Will and Bridge comes down next turn. On his turn he Violent Outbursts into 'genesis and lays down all sorts of fat but no Terrastadon to blow up my Bridge, so he scoops. Game two was much of the same affair. I boarded in an extra bridge and Manic Vandal for a Koth and Welder. Didn't wanna get caught by a Pithing Needle or something.
r2: LED Dredge. I have a turn 2 hand, he has a turn 1 hand. Game two he figures he can just race me, so I keep a hand with painter/blasts and a Cage (sided out my moons and magus for 4 cage and 2 demise) and he whiffs on the Cabal Therapy for Grindstone. Cage drops down and it's elementary from there wtih a blast in hand to counter his removal/bounce. Game three I have another cage and assemble Painter Stone while he durdles around.
r3: Lands. Game one I turn three him with a Tabernacle trigger on the stack ^_^. Game two was a drawn out affair with lots of Chalice and EE recursion after I let a Blood moon get blown up. He gets Grove/Fires on line and we move on to game three. Much of the same as game one, we go to the end of time and five turns, I had him on four and a Jaya out, so I had the moral win.
r4: ANT. I'm first seed he's second, we ID and play it out for fun. I wipe the floor with him in two short games.
top 4: ANT, different player. Game one I make a punt. I kept a hand with lands, a moon, two blasts and a painter knowing what he was on. He strips my hand but I stick the painter and draw an extra blast. In response to his second therapy I let it resolve and he strips my blast, where I should have just blown his land up instead. He goes off the next turn. The next two games I play the control and keep Moon/Revoker hands. I lock his lands up with Moons and use Revokers on Lotus Petal and LED. Game three he whiffed on an Ad Nauseum from 15 life.
finals: ANT, ID player. He takes game one and I control games two and three with Thorns and Moons
Got a Plateau which I traded up wtih my last Chinese Recruiter for a minty English one and some cash.
Props: Welder was good, want to work in another
X-0-X makes the cut
Fourth English Recruiter for a day's gaming
Slops: Koth didn't do any work.
11 man tournaments
Gonna rock the GPt tomorrow, will post final list then!
Hey guys, I just decided that Imperial Painter is going to be my first real Legacy deck. I'm just waiting for my cards to arrive which should be any day now.
Is there a reason that nobody seems to run Gamble in this deck? It seems like that would be a great option for finding Grindstone, especially with welder. Or even to go grab Koth or Chandra.
Summoning Trap looks intriguing too, but that's probably going to be useless in too many situations.
I just finished 3rd out of ~35 players in a local GPT Paris in Helsinki, lost to a good matchup (BUG-still)in the semifinals for an extra salty finish. Blood moon did most of the work, as expected.
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
12 Mountains
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal
4 Blood Moon
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Magma Jet
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Goblin Welder
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Sideboard:
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Spellskite
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Viashino Heretic
Round 1 MUD 1-2
Round 2 Esper 2-1
Round 3 Team America 2-1
Round 4 UR Dreadstill 2-0
Round 5 Team America 2-1
Round 6 Jund 2-1
Quarterfinals ANT 2-1
Semifinals BUGstill 1-2
Blood Moon is pretty much game against all of the above, but Metalworker can do crazy things even under moon and in the semis I just couldn't get one to stick to close the game. I mulliganed quite a lot but it usually only takes a resolved moon to undo any mulligans and buy enough draw steps to win. Against Esper and Jund I resolved fast combos, the rest were pretty much all about moons.
The sideboard is nothing fancy nor optimal because I'm quite unfamiliar with the deck and the matchups. Still, I used every single card in my SB today so it couldn't be that bad.
Absolutely a great deck in a this meta. I would strongly consider this for Paris unless meta changes dramatically with Born of Gods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NormalGuy
Congrats man. Painter is the first deck I built and all I really play. The others I just play for fun before selling for cash. Painter aims to be the most consistent stompy deck and gamble just increases the variance. If it wasn't random discard I wouldn't play white. finding stone can be hard sometimes but that's the only downside. The times gamble is good are far outweighed by the random factor. If you want more tutoring play white if you want a more dedicated moon strategy play mono red.
Yep, I'm excited to get it together and start playing some real games. My first build is going to be mono red. My other legacy deck is a Cheeri0s deck that I ran gamble in and I was really happy with it, even with the random discard. The thing with that deck is you aim to keep as many cards in hand until the combo goes off, so the discard usually doesn't hit the card the card you tutored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
have a legacy tournament this weekend and am going to be playing soviet control. I need help with side boarding as I know what cards I want in the board but having trouble switching them out in the main. Please comment with help. I also understand that this deck is the dreaded 61 cards.
8 mountains
4 scalding tarn
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 SSG
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Goblin Welder
1 Magus of the Moon
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
4 Lighting Bolt
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Koth of the Hammer
Sideboard:
4 Thorn of Amethyst (Combo)
3 Pyroclasm (g/b/x decks)
4 Phyrexian Revoker (control and combo)
2 Pyroblast (control and combo)
1 Manic Vandal (stoneblade.dec and mud)
1 Ensaring Bridge (g/b/x and sneak attack)
@someguy
You'll quickly learn that painter is way more control than combo and not want gamble. It adapts quickly to the gameplan you need granted you have a good understanding of legacy deck lists.
Lambert drop a land, a bridge, or a bolt if you want 60
Hi all! I did some testing with my last posted list. The deck is feeling more control heavy and the 61 cards did not seem to make a huge difference. It felt good to have a welder in the deck again. I am really thinking that sudden demise or whipflare may be better than pyroclasm. Trying to create boarding notes for this weekend. Overall the list is feeling more consistent.
U/W/r miracles:
- 4 Bolt
- 2 Blood Moon
+ 4 Revoker
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast
UWR Delver: Need Help
- 2 ?
+ 1 Manic Vandal
+ 1 Ensnaring Bridge
RUG Delver:
- 1 Jaya
+ 1 Ensnaring Bridge
Shardless Bug:
I dont think I have to side here at all.
Jund/Junk:
- 2 Pyroblast
- 2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Ensnaring Bridge
+3 Pyroclasm
Maverick/DnT
- 4 Pyroblast
- 2 Red Elemental Blast
+ 4 Revoker (for mom, vial, karakas, mangara, jitte, and other randos)
+ 1 Manic Vandal
+ 1 Ensnaring Bridge
Stoneblade:
- 4 Lightning Bolt
+ 1 Manic Vandal
+ 1 Ensnaring Bridge
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast
Sneak Attack:
- 4 Lighting Bolt
- 4 Grindstone
- 3 Blood Moon
+ 4 Phyrexian Revoker
+ 1 Ensnaring Bridge
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast
+ 4 Thorn of Amethyst
Storm and Belcher:
- 4 Lighting Bolt
- 4 Blood Moon
- 3 Ensnaring Bridge
+ 4 Thorn of Amethyst
+ 4 Phyexian Revoker (LED, Charbelcher, or Lotus Petal)
+ 3 Pyroclasm (ETW tokens)
Dredge:
- 4 Blood Moon
+ 1 Ensnaring Bridge
+ 3 Pyroclasm (tokens)
Team America: I dont know if I have to side here
- 1 ? (md seems good already)
+ 1 Ensnaring Bridge
Merfolk:
- 4 Blood Moon
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast
+ 1 Ensnaring Bridge
+ 1 Manic Vandal (Jitte) or Pyroclasm
Goblins:
- 4 Pyroblast
- 2 Red Elemental Blast
+ 1 Ensnaring Bridge
+ 3 Pyroclasm
+ 1 Manic Vandal
+ 1 Phyrexian Revoker
Burn:Terrible Match-up
- 4 Blood
+ 4 Thorn of Amethyst
@Lambert101
I think against Patriot and thresh, you should take out your magus and koth.
Against team America, take out koth. Koth is too slow for tempo deck.
Against dredge, I think moon is good, especially on the play, which can force them to take DDD paln(And if they take a mulligan..). Bridge is not that useful, because they can either bring in a lot of artifact hate card or just dread return for flayer of the hatebound to kill you without attacking. I insist in playing some graveyard hate cards.
Against death and taxes, why bridge over pyrocalsm? Sweeper are definitely better here, since bridge ONLY buy your time. But they are control deck, they donnot fear playing late game and they have so many answers to your bridge( wisp, O-ring, mangara or even disenchant). Once your bridge is gone, only one swing could be lethal.
Agaisnt esper, I would like to keep some bolt and bring in some revoker, because they usually have EE.
Verses UWr Delver, one of your biggest problems from their board will be Meddling Mage. You'll need to bring in sweepers, preferably Sudden Demise to wipe their board and save your blasts for their counters.
Thank you for the comments.
So thinking something like the following against UWR Delver:
- 2 Koth
- 1 Magus of the Moon
+ 3 Pyroclasm
Also any other comments on my list or board plans would be very helpful.
Yeah, get some Sudden Demise instead of Pyroclasm.
Still not sure why you run Lightning Bolt. Wouldn't utility critters help your bad/worse matchups anyway?
I like the bolts to kill dudes and even planeswalkers. If I cut the Bolts I would add a second Magus of the Moon and 2 revoker to cut the list back down to 60. The board would then add another manic vandal and something else.
I'm thinking about picking this deck up but I was wondering why Koth of the hammer replaced Chandra, pryomaster.
Koth can win games with his ultimate under a bridge.
what is your meta like？If you expect a lot of bug, second magus is good. For me, I think I never need the second magus, it is overall mediocre or even weak now. It only shines in esper and bug match up, which was crushed by us very easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by lambert101
Second revoker is good imo, it is a more versatile card for current meta, but I insist playing some number of bolts along with bridge.
Hey all,
I'm getting into Legacy, and am looking at Painter as my first real combo deck (previous combo experience is limited to Manaless Dredge).
My current list:
1 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Spellskite
Creatures [19]
2 Koth of the Hammer
Planeswalkers [2]
4 Blood Moon
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Spells [19]
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
9 Mountain
Lands [20]
~~~~~~~~~~~~
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Manic Vandal
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sudden Demise
4 Thorn of Amethyst
Sideboard [15]
My current concern is the deck's combo matchups, whether it's Dredge or something fast like Belcher.
All I could see for the former is Relic or a fast combo, and for the latter a quick Thorn.
Any advice on these?
Ratchet bomb + welder crushes dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrospira
But traditionally crypt or Graf diggers cage. Cage is also great vs elves.
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How is the DnT match-up? In my preparation for this weekends tournament I am concerned about this match-up.
My current board plan is
Maverick/DnT
- 4 Pyroblast
- 2 Red Elemental Blast
+ 4 Revoker (for mom, vial, karakas, mangara, jitte, and other randos)
+ 1 Manic Vandal
+ 1 Ensnaring Bridge
I think in now may have to become
Maverick/DnT
- 4 Pyroblast
- 2 Red Elemental Blast
- 3 Blood Moon
+ 4 Revoker (for mom, vial, karakas, mangara, jitte, and other randos)
+ 1 Manic Vandal
+ 1 Ensnaring Bridge
+ 3 pyroclasm (going to become sudden demise)
Can you explain how Ratchet bomb + welder beats dredge? And also what cage does to elves?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish
I played a dredge deck in the first round of my first legacy tournament a few months ago with another deck and I didn't even know what was happening. Prior to that I hadn't really played Magic at all since Stronghold so all these new mechanics are somewhat of a mystery to me.
The bomb allows you to blow up the zombie tokens and the welder allows you to get it back from the graveyard.
Dnt match up is favourable for us both pre board and post board.Quote:
Originally Posted by lambert101
I like to leave some blasts in, playing tons of removals and sweepers against them, for Dnt is a hatebear deck, which is more vulnerable to removals and sweepers.
I think you can side out koth and all the moon, I think koth is not that good in this match up.
so against DnT something like
- 4 Blood Moon
- 2 Koth
- 2 Red Elemental Blast
- 1 Pyroblast
+ 3 Pryoclasm (going to be sudden demise)
+ 1 Bridge
+ 1 Manic Vandal
+ 4 Revoker (mom, vial, karakas, mangara)
Wrong.
Do not board out moons against dnt. It shuts off their utility lands, and can even color screw them. And there bridges maindeck is probably fine. You will have time to resolve one, the games rarely go fast. Also, koth is quite good, his ultimate is game if it ever was. Plus, it is one more thing they must deal with, just saying. I would shave some blasts and bring in your sweepers and swap out a utility critter for manic vandal. You'll need the removal. This has been my experience in this match up
RB + welder explained above,Quote:
Originally Posted by NormalGuy
Cage stops Natural Order in elves
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And perhaps more importantly Green Sun's Zenith. That makes all of their tutors and 3 win cons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish
Ah of course! Sorry for that oversight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
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