Hmmm, I guess they were two to pack it then :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Zorker
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Hmmm, I guess they were two to pack it then :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Zorker
In reference to my list on the previous page, Im curious why Noetic Scales based lists never took off. That card is absolutely brutal in the current format, and Pox is completely immune to it.
noetic scales can indeed be good for pox because of the obvious symmetry with all the discard we are packing..i think its exorbitant cost is whats keeping it from seeing much tournament play and people would rather use ensnaring bridge for creature control at a lower cost..
at 4 mana, most pox players would rather cast nether void, night of soul's betrayal or even bottled cloisted(in reference to reid duke's list)..
but give it a shot, i don't think it has been play tested enough..who knows? we might even discover a secret tech.. :smile:
Matthew Everitt sure ran a lot of creature hate in his SB! he was probably expecting to face a lot of creature decks! very good meta-gaming on his part! i hope he'd come by and share some insights about his deck..
I prefer Culling Scales over Noetic Scales. :) With Nether Spirit in play, it's hilarious.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
The list look more like below nowadays. It reflect more what I need in the deck, than a judgement of the cards themselves. Innocent Blood, for example, is a tier I card. But it is a 1-for-1 and I don't feel I need it.Quote:
To make it easier to figure out the weak cards and find replacements I tried rate them:
Darkblast
Smallpox
Sensei’s Divining Top
Pox
Bloodghast
Tombstalker
Dakmor Salvage
Dark Ritual
Nihilith
Innocent Blood
Hymn to Tourach
Nether Spirit
Tier I
Darkblast
Smallpox
Bloodghast
Nihilith
Perish - This is a sideboard card, but it is a black wrath of god in the format.
Tier II
Pox
Tombstalker
Dakmor Salvage
Hymn to Tourach
Sensei’s Divining Top - It is a third tier card in itself, and need an enabler like fetch lands or dredge effects to be good.
Liliana of the Veil - I will run this only if my plan is to go junk stylee, playing only the strongest cards.
Tier III
Innocent Blood
Nether Spirit
Dark Ritual
New cards
Reanimate - I bought two, and will test one in the deck
Cabal Therapy - Need support for maximum effectiveness.
Buried Alive - The one in the deck take up a creature slot.
Sickening Dreams - Just in case card that give me more options than just pox my own mana. It is also a nice finisher when the opponent is on low life.
Gitaxian Probe - For thinning out the deck, and only when running Cabal therapy.
Liliana is very very good in pox. Not sure why you wouldn't want it
Yeah...gonna have to agree too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Lili's literally a 4 of in any Pox list. You rarely ever sideboard her out since she has all the options you want for Pox's core game.
Mostly because she need to be well protected. Maybe that is easier in orthodox versions of pox?
Just popping in to say that Noetic Scales looks bonkers good right now, and it combos very well with Liliana and lets late game discard act to bounce irritating Deathrites and whatnot. High cost is justified by wiping the board on the following upkeep. It even answers True Name and is Abrupt Decay proof. Hell its even Jace proof unlike Ensaring Bridge, which allows utility creatures to hang around. Only area where I see Ensnaring Bridge being better is against Sneak Attack.
I myself might test it elsewhere...
Well said Claymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
I have found Noetic Scales to be absolutely amazing in this deck ever since Liliana was printed, but it's gotten even better since Sneak and Show, Abrupt Decay and True Name Nemesis showed up.
In general the build I posted on the previous page is a more consistent direction to go. The general theme of this build was to deemphasize the land destruction aspect of the deck to beef up the discard (4 Liliana, 4 Necrogen Mists, 2 Raven's Crime). And by beefing up the discard so significantly, the deck is able to better support 4cc spells and it is also able to absolutely abuse Noetic Scales and The Rack.
You can certainly play Ensnaring Bridge alongside Noetic Scales, but playing Ensnaring Bridge means that I would have to replace the Haunted Plate Mail with Cursed Scroll and HPM offers a much much faster clock. In addition, Mishra's Factory loses a ton of utility if you opt to play Ensnaring Bridge.
@claymore
one thing it indeed has over ensnaring bridge is that its abrupt decay proof, i have completely overlooked that part..thanks for reminding me about that..
i'm not dismissing it, i think its a very good control card that warrants more playtesting..
This is unacceptable. You should not wish to play 'weak' cards in Pox just to be either rogue or different/budget. "Junk" is a strongest cards deck? Pox by sheer design is a control prison deck. The style of deck as well as the BBB spell itself specifically wants no lands, creatures, or cards in hand. What's Liliana do? All of the above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
To exclude Liliana from suggested builds means the deck will be inferior. There's a reason why Pox started showing up in top 8s, and unfortunately, it's not Pox the card, but Liliana alongside Pox.
Your meta I have to say is very underdeveloped to say you don't need a 1 cmc kill spell for opening Llanowars, Lackeys, DRS, Delver of Secrets, Goblin Guide, Mother of Runes, Reanimator Summons off a Dark Rit, Nimble Mongooses, Noble Hierarchs, Curse Catchers, and every other 1 cmc creature that resists Pox card advantage.
For the record, Hymn and Liliana have to be tier 1. Any Pox player that thinks the deck doesn't need these card Advantage spells isn't a Pox deck I can put faith in sadly. :frown:
Well, there is a difference between the percieved strength of a card on its own, and its strength in its environment. Emrakul is strong, but not if the deck is not built around him, right? My deck has hard to kill dudes and a beat down plan. Liliana would merely be an adjunct to them. She will get the slots but only if there is room.
One idea is to replace Hymn to Tourach with liliana. I like more permanents in play, even if Hymn can be awesome.
And how you build your deck reflect the meta for sure. No reanimators here, so Darkblast and smallpox is enough to handle what is mostly delvers and such.
i think what's omnistrata's talking about is what's good to run in a pox deck in a general Legacy environment..
you have a peculiar meta when you said there are no reanimators since they are very popular these days..
Any particular reason to run Necrogen Mists over Bottomless Pit? Also what are you thought on Shrieking Affliction for additional/varied win conditions with the Rack? 4 Haunted Plate Mail seems quite a lot. Also Mr. Duke was running Bottled Cloister rather than Phyrexian Arena as card draw over the weekend so you might want to try that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
Shrieking Affliction seems amazing. Honestly had no idea that card even existed. Makes me want to scrap Haunted Plate Mail for it, up the discard count and also make room for some Ensnaring Bridge.
Necrogen Mists main purpose is to enable you to abuse Noetic Scales, The Rack and now Shrieking Affliction and Ensnaring Bridge.
Pox as a deck is barely fazed by Necrogen Mists discard (discard an extra land, an extra urborg, a pox you dont want to cast, an innocent blood, a hymn, or dark ritual that has no utility and in some builds a nether spirit).
Randomly being made to discard your noetic scales or liliana to a bottomless pit instead of a card you have no use for screws you over.
Have you tested Waste Not in your deck, Captain Hammer?
No, havent tested Waste Not as they havent yet printed the card. Definitely will once its out though.
Update: Outdated list based on the misguided notion that Uba Mask is good in the current environment deleted.
What is Uba Mask supposed to do?
Hello everyone!
I'm struggling to find out what I should get into my pox??
Atm my list looks like this:
// Lands
1 Cabal Pit
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
9 swamp
// Creatures
1 Nether Spirit
// Spells
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Cursed Scroll
3 Dark Ritual
3 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Mox Diamond
1 Nether Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Pox
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Trinisphere
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 The Abyss
SB: 3 Toxic Deluge
My biggest problem is how to sb properly against creature based decks like Canadian threshold or xyz delver. I'm sure that tribal decks should be fine after
-Swamp -sinkhole -Ghost quarter -Nether void (of got vials) or SDT and +The abyss +3 toxic deluge. But nether void and ghost quarter feels to good against counter magic with absolutely no basic lands and getting +2 extirpate and +2 surgical extraction will drive them nuts after removing all they duals.
Also I'm a bit concern about storm that do I need just a bit more against them.
Thank you very much in advance for all great tips and tricks :-)
I was wrong about the utility of Uba Mask in the current environment.
Below is my updated that is no longer geared around Uba Mask that I would love to get people's thoughts on...
//Discard
3 Raven's Crime
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Necrogen Mists
//Lock
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Noetic Scales
//Win Conditions
4 The Rack
3 Shrieking Affliction
//Utility
4 Mind Stone
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Bottled Cloister
//Lands
2 Bojuka Bog
2 Ancient Tomb
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
11 Swamp
Depending on your play style/meta, Necrogen Mists can be replaced with either Bottomless Pit or Oppression and function perfectly well. Likewise in a fast meta not infested by Dazes, Dark Ritual is a suitable replacement for Mind Stone. Replacing Bottled Cloister with Null Brooch is another viable option.
A lot of thought went into making sure the above list has a very smooth mana curve that also draws out counterspells with the lower cc spells allowing the more potent spells at the higher end of the curve to resolve.
1st turn plays (11)
4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
3 Raven's Crime
2nd turn plays (11)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Mind Stone
3 retracing Raven's Crime/cycling Barren Moor
3cc plays (12)
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Necrogen Mists
4 Liliana of the Veil
I would really appreciate hearing people's thoughts on this list and any suggestions they have to offer. I would also love input on if Waste Not will warrant inclusion once it sees print and if so, how best to go about including it.
This approach seems really powerful against most decks in the format.
Changes recently made to the deck...
-2 Unburden
-2 Bottomless Pit
-2 Pox
-1 Shrieking Affliction
+3 Raven's Crime
+4 Bottled Cloister
-4 Smallpox
+4 Dark Ritual
-2 Bottled Cloister
+2 Null Brooch
-4 Dark Ritual
-2 Null Brooch
+4 Mind Stone
+2 Toxic Deluge
-3 Barren Moor
-1 Ancient Tomb
+1 Mishra's Factory
+1 Swamp
+2 Bojuka Bog
Yes, I'm aware the deck is largely geared towards decimating decks that rely on creature based win conditions, but that's 95 percent of the current environment. Between the discard and sideboard, storm based decks may be beatable as well.
Somehow I would personally love to see loam with that Raven's crime but that is just me.
Also you have no actual plan against creatures if they get rid of your bridge (pridemage/sb card)
Have you think about crucible/Mox Diamond? Not sure how much value you got from that mind stone but do you ever find a lack of black mana?
Well looks like we are completely different pox player since I'm relying more mana denial and trying to get constant 1-for-x+1 ^^
IMO, Loam/Crucible/Mox don't add anything valuable to the deck. They have a role in lists that also care about land destruction and play Wasteland/Sinkhole, but in a deck like this that is singularly focused on discard, they dont offer much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekron
I feel that you may have glossed over Noetic Scales and Liliana. Both cards are actually stronger than Bridge and are solid against creatures even if Ensnaring Bridge gets blown up. The discard also serves to empty your opponents hands of some of their creatures slowing them down.
Only 8 cards in the deck needs BB to cast, and none need BBB. This is why I feel 16 black mana sources is sufficient.
I really like Mind Stone. It accelerates you to the midgame one turn earlier then sacrifices itself for a card once you have mana to spare. Its fantastic utility for this reason but I am open to suggestions for alternate accelerants that synergize with the rest of the deck or offer similar utility.
I am debating whether to keep Barren Moor or replace it with Swamps. I play it because the only times its bad is if you top deck it turns 2 or 3 but otherwise, its awesome. If its in your opener, its a perfectly good first turn play. And midgame and beyond which is where this deck spends the bulk of most matches, its phenomenal.
Looks like you got my points covered pretty well:-)
Yeah, I totally miss that noetic scale but lilly alone is pretty weak against swarming creatures but since you got them covered via scales you got creatures checked.
Since you have nice discard symbiosis when waste not is released on some day, it should take mind stone place but in mean time it looks at least decent.
Now I'm just wondering that can you manage with all threats which are all ready on board when you got your discard lock established? Or do you just agree to lose turn 1-3 compo decks because lack of early game disruption?
Ofc, if there are no stupid compo decks in your meta then you got nice meta tuned pox, but still I would love to see rituals in this 3cmc deck ;-)
I was going back and forth on Dark Ritual vs. Mind Stone.
Currently, aggro control seem to be on the rise thanks in part to Nemesis. The threats those decks play are fairly large and often stopped dead in their tracks by either a single Bridge or Scales. And if you throw all your discard at these decks until they are depleted of counterspells, resolving Bridge/Scales isn't hard. However, if you try to explode out of the gates with a Ritual and overextend too fast, you're much more likely to get key spells countered or Dazed.
In a faster/less blue meta (one with more combo or more fast aggro), I would probably go...
-1 Bottled Cloister
-1 Raven's Crime
-2 Mind Stone
+4 Dark Ritual
Given how many decks are playing Daze, maindeck Dark Ritual doesn't seem worthwhile at the moment. But I would certainly include Rituals and Chalices in the board to bring in vs. very fast decks.
Since you are not running Smallpox or Innocent Blood you do seem weak against creatures like Deathright Shaman/Grim Lavamancer who with only a single power will be difficult to bounce quickly; also 4 Bottled Cloisers seems quite a lot. Perhaps you should add a couple of Black Sun's Zenith to help clear the board? You might also want a single Bojuka Bog or a Cabal Pit in with your lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
I guess it is a play style choice; I prefer random discard as it can break up the opponents combo rather than letting them control there hand. If I have them in my hand Pit always comes down after Lilly and Bridge; I am not using Scales though so I can see how waiting for a fourth land could be an issue with your deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
My tentative sideboard thus far includes
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Oppression
4 Toxic Deluge
3 Dark Ritual
I could see maindecking a couple of Toxic Deluge (superior to Black Sun's Zenith) if elves was a frequent matchup but imo, it's not needed to deal with Lavamancer/Shaman.
Even if you dont have a Liliana to make your opponent sac them, it only takes you a turn or two longer to bounce those guys to your opponent's hand and after that, thanks to summoning sickness, you'll never need to worry about them.
Youre indeed correct that I could get away with cutting a Bottled Cloister or two for more early game cards. Many options to choose from but I remain unsure if any of them are truly worth maindecking. Smallpox is the card Im most tempted by.
If you don't play either Pox, nor Smallpox, then SHOOO! You are playing Black Control, but not POX :eek:
You could always try start a new thread for MonoB.
BTW, Uba Mask was against opposing card draw, right???
For your amusement here is my latest list. Not tested yet, but what the heck.
All the Fun Cards
4 Bloodghast
3 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith
1 braids, cabal minion
1 filth
1 sensei's divining top
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 umezawa's jitte
3 liliana of the veil
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Pox
1 reanimate
1 black sun's zenith
1 buried alive
1 Sickening Dreams
3 Darkblast
20 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 bojuka bog
Nihilith is very good vs RUG decks in general. They can't remove him, and not block him. Only rarely do they counter or stifle him.
Only StP get him. While Baleful strix can block it usually dies to Darkblast.
That is why I play four Nihilith.
Ps, I'll squeeze in a Phyrexian Metamorph when I get them.
I'm still eager to get some feedback from my brawling, also if they're experienced pox player around I'm more than happy to get some sideboarding tips :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekron
@captain hammer
your list looks more like a classic "discard bridge"(i think that's what its called) because of the racks, ensnaring bridges..only difference is i think the classic discard bridge runs bottomless pit instead of necrogen mist(well necrogen mist hasnt been printed yet during that time)..it also has null brooch i think..
Below is my updated that is no longer geared around Uba Mask that I would love to get people's thoughts on...
//Discard
3 Raven's Crime
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Necrogen Mists
//Lock
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Noetic Scales
//Win Conditions
4 The Rack
3 Shrieking Affliction
//Utility
4 Mind Stone
4 Bottled Cloister
//Lands
2 Barren Moor
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
10 Swamp
check out this article, its very old but should be an interesting read and might offer some ideas..
http://www.casualplayers.org/article...&articleid=338
uba mask seems good against brainstrom decks..i haven't tested it much though..
but if its purpose is too hurt decks that like to draw cards, then wouldn't chains of Mephistopheles be better in that respect? just a thought..
Absolutely chains is better since uba mask + jace/brainstorm is pretty much effective recall since on rare occasion you can actually cast any of those cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
Awesome suggestion. Null Brooch sounds like it could work. It combos very well with Bottled Cloister but at the same time, it competes with Cloister for the few flex slots. Im not sure if the deck really needs it or can really support another 4cc card.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
Will test a 2/2 split with Cloister. Thank you.
The point is that bounce is not the answer to cards like Shaman/Lavamancer. They can activate them during upkeep in response to the Scales trigger. In fact an opponent can start on zero cards in hand and, if they have 3 creatures in play, stack the triggers so they discard zero cards and then take zero damage from rack/affliction. They can then cast those creatures again in the main phase and repeat every turn. As a control deck you are going to be taking damage early before bridge/scales comes online so they may be able to win the damage race. I think you need more than just Lilly to deal with creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
Stack
+Shaman/Lavamancer activation (you take damage)
+Discard for Mists/Pit (no cards discarded as hand size=0)
+Scales returns creatures (Hand size now 3)
+Damage from Rack/Affliction (Zero damage as opponent has cards in hand)
Great post. I didn't realize this. Its a shame Null Brooch cant deal with creatures. Given this, Im going to forget about Null Brooch. I think, like you suggested earlier, I will instead maindeck 2 Toxic Deluge in place of 2 Bottled Cloister and replace the 2 Barren Moor with 2 Bojuka Bog. I will update my list above.
Your welcome. If you are not used to stacking triggers the other thing to note is you can put your Necrogen Mists triggers on top of the Bottled Cloister trigger. That way you do not discard any cards (as you have none); then you return cards to your hand and draw one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
Thank you. I was aware of that. This also works with Bottomless Pit with the current oracle wording. That was the reason I opted to go up to 4 Bottled Cloister and felt I could make use of a full playset of Mishra's Factories. Having cut two Bottled Clostier, I figured I should boot a Factory as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by lyracian
Here is an updated version...
//Core Discard
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
//Flex Discard
2 Raven's Crime
2 Bottomless Pit
3 Oppression
//Lock
4 Noetic Scales
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Null Brooch
//Win Conditions
4 The Rack
3 Shrieking Affliction
//Utility
3 Mind Stone
3 Bottled Cloister
2 Toxic Deluge
//Land
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Cabal Pit
12 Swamp
Glad to see you have moved over to Bottomless Pits; Oppression will also help with stopping them recasting creatures after they are returned with Scales. Personally I would prefer 3 Pits/2 Oppression split but let us know how you find it in testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. Given that you control Bottomless Pit, Noetic Scales, and The Rack, you choose the order of their triggers (even on your opponent's turn). Thus, optimally:Quote:
Originally Posted by lyracian
Top of Stack
-Rack damage (hand size = 0; 3 damage)
-Scales returns creatures (hand size now 3)
-Discard for Pit
Bottom of Stack
To be perfectly honest, I feel Null Brooch, Noetic Scales, Uba Mask and Bottled Cloister are all unplayable due to their mana cost. They all fall into the same category: tempting control pieces that won't stabilize a losing board state on their own, that rarely come down in time, and are essentially "more winning" when they do. Even cards like Damnation and The Abyss are too slow. All you need to due is miss a land drop or get Dazed and you lose. Nether Void I think is the only 4-drop strong enough to play. The oft-mentioned rule of thumb for playability in Legacy is CMC no higher than 3. You can almost count on one hand the number of cards good enough to see play at 4 CMC (that legitimately get cast). It's amazing how big a difference one mana can make to a card's relevance. Crucible of Worlds, Engineered Plague, and Ensnaring Bridge spring to mind as examples of cards we should always consider before trying to jam goofy 4-drops.