[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spector14

Thanks for the good answer!
I'm Very Impressed with stifle/tnn/pierce/ confi list!


Before I Tried the deck and seems really strong, has a lot of possible plays to do in the same turn!

But I do not understand A thing: what style of game we need to use? Example:

We are on the play against unknown deck:
In our hands there are shaman, stifle and spell pierce! What's the better choise to do?


Inviato da mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

---

In the example you gave I would play Deathrite Shaman. In the dark against an unknown opponent the best thing to do is to get a threat onto the board as quick as possible, especially Deathrite Shaman since the mana acceleration he provides is a crucial part of the tempo BUG Delver can generate. I suggest you read my primer if you already haven't. The primer is written with mostly the hymn lists in mind but it should help somewhat still even if you're looking to run a Stifle list. Other than that you'll have to do some playtesting to work out the lines of the list, though still feel free to post every now and then if you get a tough decision in a game that you played that you were unsure on how to proceed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

In the example you gave I would play Deathrite Shaman. In the dark against an unknown opponent the best thing to do is to get a threat onto the board as quick as possible, especially Deathrite Shaman since the mana acceleration he provides is a crucial part of the tempo BUG Delver can generate. I suggest you read my primer if you already haven't. The primer is written with mostly the hymn lists in mind but it should help somewhat still even if you're looking to run a Stifle list. Other than that you'll have to do some playtesting to work out the lines of the list, though still feel free to post every now and then if you get a tough decision in a game that you played that you were unsure on how to proceed.

---

Now I have finished to read the
Primer! :)

I'm testing a Lot This list:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14351&iddeck=105861

But I want made some changes:

Md:

-1 ponder +1 FOW

-1 confidant +1 sylvan library

Side:

-1 fow. + library (if we don't take out 1 confidant)

-1 needle. +1 krosan

-1 divert. +1 surgical

-1 arcane laboratory. +1 flusterstorm

What you think about these changes?
Maybe we can put more graveyard's hate!




Inviato da mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

18 lands and 8 cantrips is a tried and true formula for success. Even with the Sylvan you're not getting that effect because it won't help you with 1 land hands.

If you want 3 Ponder then replace the Ponder with land 19. Just my opinion.

Hey guys! :smile:

I played another local event today going 4-0-2, 3rd place. I tryed a new maindeck configuration feat. 2 Treasure Cruise and I can only confirm what other people here already mentioned: that card is AWESOME! For those of you, who still have doubts about the card, I can only say you should give it a try. I was sceptical about it at first, too. But when you see the card in actual play scenarios you will realize how much power it adds to your mid- to lategame. Don´t be afraid of the "nombo" with DRS and Goyf which you would expect it to have. To be honest: it doesn´t even matter at all, since you always get to choose when and how to cast it.

Anyways, my MUs today where:

R1: Mirror Win 2-0
R2: Mirror Win 2-1
R3: Sneak Show ID (played a good friend of mine and since the tournament was a trial for Prague Eternal, we both opted for the possibility to go 5-0-1 to get the byes, thus we IDed)
R4: Miracles Win 2-1
R5: Miracles Draw 1-1-1
R6: Grixis Delver Win 2-1

Since I only played 2 copies of Treasure Cruise today, I got to play it only 4 times throughout the whole tournament. However, 4 times it resolved and all 4 games were consequent wins afterwards. I had 2 resolved in the Mirror Match; after trading spells/creatures 1for1 until both our resources were exhausted, drawing into TC gave me such a boost midgame, that my opponents could not keep up with (they didn´t play TC today, yet). Also against Miracles it was huge to have. I even resolved 2 Cruises in one turn... :wink:

The thing I am still unsure about is what would be the "right" cards to cut for Treasure Cruise. My list today looked like this:

Maindeck:

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 True Name Nemesis
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB:

3 Spell Pierce
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Grafdigger´s Cage
2 Null Rod

So compared to my last built, I just switched 2 Ponder in favour of 2 Treasure Cruise. Granted, that feels a little odd at first and I am still unsure if that´s the way to go forward for me. However, cutting down on threats is honestly no option for me, since I feel that a high threat-density is what makes Treasure Cruise so valuable in the first place. Cutting down on lands is no option either since with 4 TNN, my list is pretty mana-heavy already. That leaves us with disruption and cantrips. The disruption suite is what makes Team America what it is, so I don´t see a good point in cutting cards in that section of the deck either. That logic leaves us with the only option of cutting down on cantrips. And in comparison Ponder vs Brainstorm of course favours BS...thus I cut the Ponders.

I would be really interested to see, how others, who have been advocating Cruise as well, have restructured their builts. I feel going forward, that is one of the most important questions to answer for future deckbuilding with TA, thus I am very intrigued to discuss different approaches with you guys. :smile:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spector14

What you think about these changes?
Maybe we can put more graveyard's hate!

---

I think the changes are alright, though I agree with FoolofaTook that if you're going to play 18 lands you should be playing a fourth ponder instead of the first sylvan library. If you want to play two Sylvan Library leave them in the sideboard. Also you don't need more graveyard hate. You have more than enough for dredge and reanimator with two cage in addition to Deathrite Shaman. That has become pretty standard with BUG Delver at least.

I like 1 Surgical Extraction in the sideboard. It's graveyard hate but also occasionally the possibility of a blowout win when you run into a list that is really dependent on having a particular card and has no redundancy for it. Being playable for phyrexian mana makes it an always available spell when it's in your hand.

Well, Bob Huang just won the NJ SCG Open with UR Delver running 4 Treasure Cruise, and commented in the postgame interview that he thinks it's an auto 4-of in every Delver variant. Hopefully this gets the discussion more focused on how we actually build the deck to maximize TC's potential rather than questioning whether it's good in the first place.

OK, I'll kick the discussion off with a topic that I'm kind of curious about, as I didn't get to watch too much of the coverage today: should all 4 TC be main board, or is a split of some sort better? My gut reaction is that 2 main, 2 side sounds right, but that may just be for my particular build of the deck, which hasn't incorporated any TC yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eostby

OK, I'll kick the discussion off with a topic that I'm kind of curious about, as I didn't get to watch too much of the coverage today: should all 4 TC be main board, or is a split of some sort better? My gut reaction is that 2 main, 2 side sounds right, but that may just be for my particular build of the deck, which hasn't incorporated any TC yet.

---

3 MD seemed optimal in my testing. Playing 4 in bug delver is pushing it a bit too hard IMHO and makes for some clunky draws.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rancOr_

3 MD seemed optimal in my testing. Playing 4 in bug delver is pushing it a bit too hard IMHO and makes for some clunky draws.

---

What did you pull from the main board to fit them in?

I would pull all spell Pierces, and maybe a ponder. Also would pull the 4th True Name since Cruises may draw you into more and True names are clunky at 3 mana.

I'm playing Uwr delver and 3 has been optimal for me. Unlike UR Delver which is hyper fast with 4 probes, other delver decks don't fill the yard as quickly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ivanpei

I would pull all spell Pierces, and maybe a ponder. Also would pull the 4th True Name since Cruises may draw you into more and True names are clunky at 3 mana.

I'm playing Uwr delver and 3 has been optimal for me. Unlike UR Delver which is hyper fast with 4 probes, other delver decks don't fill the yard as quickly.

---

I'm only on one TNN as it is, so that's probably not cuttable as my 13th creature. I do like pulling the Spell Pierces and a Ponder, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eostby

I'm only on one TNN as it is, so that's probably not cuttable as my 13th creature. I do like pulling the Spell Pierces and a Ponder, though.

---

I hate spell piece in this deck. You already have hymn force and daze. Disruption overload is not great especially since this deck tries to tap out every turn. Spell piece should be the first to go, then maybe trim a ponder for the cruises 1-2 TNN should be sufficient.

3 or 4 Treasure Cruise in Team America: that is the question.

To start with, let's talk about this weekend's SCG Open winning decklist that ran the full playset. Consider how Bob Huang's UR Delver list functioned: 12 threats, 17 lands, and a TON of cards that he can play in quick succession to fill the graveyard faster than any deck aside from Dredge-types. Gitaxian Probe is a card that is worth running in his deck for several reasons: its information is useful, UR is ALWAYS the beatdown so 2-life is generally irrelevant, and beyond fueling TC it also powers up Pyromancer and Monastery Swiftspear. But it's not something that I'd personally find worth running in BUG just to help fuel Treasure Cruise.

BUG Delver is playing much more midrangey strategy. Yes, we will end up with many cards in the graveyard, but not nearly at the same pace as Bob's UR deck. We have a higher curve, 3 colors and run Wasteland, so 19 lands is about the lowest amount we can justify running. Many of our cards are slower and/or more situational. For example, we can't just fling Abrupt Decay to the face for 3 damage. This leads me to believe that running only 3 copies of Treasure Cruise is probably more realistic in this deck. It also seems that way in testing, where Cruise gets stranded slightly more often than playtesting with UR or UWr Delver.

My basic proposed list:

20 lands
4/4/4 delver/DRS/goyf
4/4 ponder/bstorm
4/4 FoW/daze
4/2 abrupt decay/liliana
3 TCruise
3 Hymn

Alternatively, you could cut a land and play 4 Thoughtseize instead of Hymn as your discard option. But I still see Hymn being the superior card outside of metagames with a lot of combo and Stoneforge decks. You could also play around with running additional removal, utility, or threats in this area. Or just get greedy, cut the 20th land and run the full playset of Hymn.

I also liked the new tech of Sultai Charm as a singleton in the maindeck in one of the top 8 BUG lists. Having a maindeck out to troublesome permanents is always welcome, and at worst it becomes an expensive cantrip. A lot of people were saying that this card was just a worse Maelstrom Pulse, but really I think it actually gains a lot from being an Instant and having the added cantrip mode. I think it is possibly a little better than Dimir Charm which is another random singleton that has been seeing some occasionally play, but making a cut for one of these cards is difficult. I *guess* one could consider cutting a Tarmogoyf, a discard spell, the 20th land, or possibly a Ponder. The full playset of Daze, FoW, and Wasteland aren't sacred cows either.

I think Notion Thief might be something worth considering bringing back to the sideboard. He's pretty good against a lot of decks already, but with the inevitable rise of Cruise, his ability is backbreaking. It's also really great against UWr Miracles and Shardless BUG. (As a pointless aside, 4 Mana is understandable, but it's a card I really wish they would have printed at 3 mana as a 2/1.)

Sylvan Library should probably be a sideboard card now to bring in against decks like Miracles, Stoneblade, and certain forms of combo and midrange. Cruise seems to fulfill its maindeck function a bit better going in blindly, so Library can just come in where it's really powerful.

I think that UR is going to become a lot more popular since it seems geared to be one of the best shells to run TCruise in, and also has the best spell to fight TCruise itself (REB/Pyroblast). In the BUG sideboard I would want to run a fair share of Disfigure, Golgari Charm (for Pyromancer and his friends), and possibly consider a Zuran orb or other life-gaining device -- maybe a Jitte? Watch out for Blood Moon as well. This sort of matchup is always pretty close, but I'd say BUG is definitely unfavored in game 1. Luckily though, they have so few threats that we can generally match them with our removal, Goyf trumps their creatures, and Hymn and a well-timed Wasteland are particular powerful .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wcm8

20 lands
4/4/4 delver/DRS/goyf
4/4 ponder/bstorm
4/4 FoW/daze
4/2 abrupt decay/liliana
3 TCruise
3 Hymn

---

This is actually the exact 60 I ran at the Open yesterday. It performed quite well, but I made terrible blunders in 3 different matches. If I did not leave my brain at home yesterday, I think things would have worked out better. It's certainly a good starting point

Quote:

---

I also liked the new tech of Sultai Charm as a singleton in the maindeck in one of the top 8 BUG lists. Having a maindeck out to troublesome permanents is always welcome, and at worst it becomes an expensive cantrip. A lot of people were saying that this card was just a worse Maelstrom Pulse, but really I think it actually gains a lot from being an Instant and having the added cantrip mode. I think it is possibly a little better than Dimir Charm which is another random singleton that has been seeing some occasionally play, but making a cut for one of these cards is difficult. I *guess* one could consider cutting a Tarmogoyf, a discard spell, the 20th land, or possibly a Ponder. The full playset of Daze, FoW, and Wasteland aren't sacred cows either.

---

Mann (who ran this) said in his top 8 interview that Sultai Charm was garbage for him all day and that he sided it out every single game 2. I think we should be skeptical.

Quote:

---

I think Notion Thief might be something worth considering bringing back to the sideboard. He's pretty good against a lot of decks already, but with the inevitable rise of Cruise, his ability is backbreaking. It's also really great against UWr Miracles and Shardless BUG. (As a pointless aside, 4 Mana is understandable, but it's a card I really wish they would have printed at 3 mana as a 2/1.)

---

This sounds a little tricky - how often do we have 4 mana up on our opponent's turn? We tap out quite a lot in the early and mid-game. It seems to me that Thief can't consistently hit our opponent's first Cruise - maybe it can stop late-game Cruises, though. I'm not sure if it's worth a slot.

Quote:

---

Sylvan Library should probably be a sideboard card now to bring in against decks like Miracles, Stoneblade, and certain forms of combo and midrange. Cruise seems to fulfill its maindeck function a bit better going in blindly, so Library can just come in where it's really powerful.

---

Do we need an effect like Library at all given how strong Cruise is? I think Cruise gives us enough card advantage that we can use that sideboard slot for something else.

Quote:

---

I think that UR is going to become a lot more popular since it seems geared to be one of the best shells to run TCruise in, and also has the best spell to fight TCruise itself (REB/Pyroblast). In the BUG sideboard I would want to run a fair share of Disfigure, Golgari Charm (for Pyromancer and his friends), and possibly consider a Zuran orb or other life-gaining device -- maybe a Jitte? Watch out for Blood Moon as well. This sort of matchup is always pretty close, but I'd say BUG is definitely unfavored in game 1. Luckily though, they have so few threats that we can generally match them with our removal, Goyf trumps their creatures, and Hymn and a well-timed Wasteland are particular powerful .

---

Agreed. If you haven't been packing at least 2 Disfigure and 2 Charm, now is the time to start. Zuran Orb is a fun idea given that it is free, and it allows us to turn our redundant lands into more Cruise food. I like the Orb idea better than Jitte since the decks Jitte would be strongest against (besides UR) are the Jitte decks themselves (like Merfolk, Death and Taxes, etc) - Null Rod and Pithing Needle are extremely powerful versus these decks, and it would feel bad to nonbo yourself.

I'll note that Punishing Fire and Life From The Loam are also natural responses to an increase in Delver decks and so it might be worth packing a little extra hate for that, too. Diversifying the graveyard hate to include a Surgical Extraction or a Nihil Spellbomb would be helpful. Diabolic Edict isn't bad either here, as many such decks run the Depths/Stage combo. It would obviously be reasonable to side in versus Sneak/Show.

wcm8, I was going to post my opinions to the above comments. You however beat me to it. I think your analysis on both UR Delver and BUG Delver is spot on. We cannot fill the graveyard as quickly and running cards to do that dilutes the power of our deck. I really like the look of your proposed list. I think it is lean and a good starting point to rigorously test Treasure Cruise. The problem with running only one or two being you may not draw them enough to gauge accurately if it is good or not. I am probably going to give your list a try tomorrow night at locals.

An additional thought, Sultai Charm is really a four-mode card, as it has Naturalize as a mode. It is going to destroy basically every non-Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix, Deathrite Shaman, and/or Bloodbraid Elf creature played. The second mode destroys two types of permanents which is nice. And as you mentioned worst case scenario it is a 3-mana instant speed cantrip. It also pitches to Force... so there is that too. I agree that it might be worth having as a one-of somewhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sturtzilla

An additional thought, Sultai Charm is really a four-mode card, as it has Naturalize as a mode. It is going to destroy basically every non-Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix, Deathrite Shaman, and/or Bloodbraid Elf creature played. The second mode destroys two types of permanents which is nice. And as you mentioned worst case scenario it is a 3-mana instant speed cantrip. It also pitches to Force... so there is that too. I agree that it might be worth having as a one-of somewhere.

---

Well, as iostream pointed out, the top 8 BUG pilot who ran it actually said Sultai Charm was garbage and it got sided out every g2. So maybe it being a 3cmc spell is bad enough to just forget about running the card. There are certainly other cards I'd be considering as singletons, and pretty high on the list is Vendi Clique as the 13th threat and added disruption/personal card filter.

Regarding Sylvan Library: maybe it isn't worth the sideboard slot, but the card *is* nuts against anything packing Swords to Plowshares and durdly combo/control. Since STP decks will also likely bringing in Rest in Peace to null your Cruises/creatures, Library is justifiably still a strong option. I agree though, room is an issue, and I personally like to run 1 Jace TMS in the SB for those sort of matchups.

edit: Sultai Charm actually DOES kill Shardless Agent and Baleful Strix, seeing as they are artifacts. :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wcm8

Well, as iostream pointed out, the top 8 BUG pilot who ran it actually said Sultai Charm was garbage and it got sided out every g2. So maybe it being a 3cmc spell is bad enough to just forget about running the card. There are certainly other cards I'd be considering as singletons, and pretty high on the list is Vendi Clique as the 13th threat and added disruption/personal card filter.

edit: Sultai Charm actually DOES kill Shardless Agent and Baleful Strix, seeing as they are artifacts. :cool:

---

Yea I think maybe as a one-of in the board it might be worth trying out. I had only been considering the primary mode for creature destruction. You are correct that the second mode catches two of the four creatures that I listed. So really it is a pretty solid all around spell. The fact that it has a cmc of three might make it a touch sluggish. I don't think I would want it in the main.... but it certainly fills a number of rolls that we may want access to in the board.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

18 lands and 8 cantrips is a tried and true formula for success. Even with the Sylvan you're not getting that effect because it won't help you with 1 land hands.

If you want 3 Ponder then replace the Ponder with land 19. Just my opinion.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

I think the changes are alright, though I agree with FoolofaTook that if you're going to play 18 lands you should be playing a fourth ponder instead of the first sylvan library. If you want to play two Sylvan Library leave them in the sideboard. Also you don't need more graveyard hate. You have more than enough for dredge and reanimator with two cage in addition to Deathrite Shaman. That has become pretty standard with BUG Delver at least.

---

Thanks for your answers.
I think that will cut the third spell pierce.

About TC, I think 2 is the correct number, because unlike UR, we have 8 cards that have synergy with our graveyard!
having said that, a good configuration of the deck to be tested could be this:

Creatures [14]
2 True Name-Nemesis
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants [21]
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze


Sorceries [6]
4 Ponder
2 TC

Lands [19]
1 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

I think I've found a way to fit the Treasure Cruise package into my already existing build, but I may be trying to hard to force the new tech in.

My updated list:

Lands - 20
4 USea
2 Bayou
1 Trop
4 Wasteland
3/3/3 Fetches

Creatures - 13
4 DRS
4 Delver
3 Goyf
1 TNN
1 V-Clique

Sorceries - 10
4 Hymn
3 Ponder
3 TC

Instants - 16
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Brainstorm

Planeswalker - 1
1 Liliana

Sideboard:
2x Disfigure
1x Dismember
2x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Stream of Unconsciousness (I know, I'm going way too deep on this one, but I want to give it a try as the 8th power for Goyfs)
1x Sylvan Library
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Treasure Cruise

What I changed
To get to this from my previous iteration of the list, I moved a Goyf and the Library to the board and cut a Ponder main, 2 Spell Pierces and a Thoughtseize from the side, and split 3-1 on the Treasure Cruises. I haven't gotten to test this yet, but it feels fine as a starting point.

I feel only UR Delver can support the full playset of 4. BUG and Patriot are more mid rangy and cannot fill the yard as fast. When I have cruise in my opening hand I find that bug/uwr can cast it earliest around turn 4 while UR Delver can cast it turn 3 sometimes since they dump cards at amazing speed. Having 2 Cruises in opening hand means you have 2 cards doing nothing till turn 4. This is unacceptable in such a fast format.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ivanpei

I feel only UR Delver can support the full playset of 4. BUG and Patriot are more mid rangy and cannot fill the yard as fast. When I have cruise in my opening hand I find that bug/uwr can cast it earliest around turn 4 while UR Delver can cast it turn 3 sometimes since they dump cards at amazing speed. Having 2 Cruises in opening hand means you have 2 cards doing nothing till turn 4. This is unacceptable in such a fast format.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sturtzilla

Yea I think maybe as a one-of in the board it might be worth trying out. I had only been considering the primary mode for creature destruction. You are correct that the second mode catches two of the four creatures that I listed. So really it is a pretty solid all around spell. The fact that it has a cmc of three might make it a touch sluggish. I don't think I would want it in the main.... but it certainly fills a number of rolls that we may want access to in the board.

---

I know I mentioned this when we talked earlier today, but I'm going to restate it for more general consumption - I think that while Sultai Charm has a lot of utility, especially because of the loot mode, it's fighting for a board slot with Maelstrom Pulse and that Pulse's key difference here is that it can destroy Planeswalkers. BUG Charm can fight them on the stack, but once a non-Abrupt Decay-able Planeswalker (say, I dunno, Jace) has resolved, you're stuck wasting a combat or two killing it (unless you can just kill your opponent). I'm open to being persuaded otherwise, but I think I'd rather have Pulse if it came down to Charm vs. Pulse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by btm10

I know I mentioned this when we talked earlier today, but I'm going to restate it for more general consumption - I think that while Sultai Charm has a lot of utility, especially because of the loot mode, it's fighting for a board slot with Maelstrom Pulse and that Pulse's key difference here is that it can destroy Planeswalkers. BUG Charm can fight them on the stack, but once a non-Abrupt Decay-able Planeswalker (say, I dunno, Jace) has resolved, you're stuck wasting a combat or two killing it (unless you can just kill your opponent). I'm open to being persuaded otherwise, but I think I'd rather have Pulse if it came down to Charm vs. Pulse.

---

Sultai Charm is blue and an instant and which are not irrelevant. I played it some today and it was ok. Not amazing, but not terrible. Might be better off as a 3rd Treasure Cruise though.

Don't forget that Sultai Charm competes with both Maelstrom Pulse and Putrefy. If anyone is running a miser's Putrefy, Charm is probably an upgrade. If anyone is running a Pulse in the maindeck, I could easily see testing Charm. On the other hand, at least in my deck, I run Pulse in the board as an answer to Jaces and Angel tokens in addition to a flexible removal spell for creatures and equipment. Charm doesn't fill the same roles, so it won't replace Pulse in my board.

Finally, with this third mode instead of it's current awful mode, Dimir Charm would have been awesome and I'd definitely play at least one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorpT

Sultai Charm is blue and an instant and which are not irrelevant. I played it some today and it was ok. Not amazing, but not terrible. Might be better off as a 3rd Treasure Cruise though.

---

I doubt it. I've been working some number of Treasure Cruise into lists and it's just a bear to play alongside Goyf and DRS. You have to play DRS to manage the opponent's GY. There's just no question there even if DRS wasn't one of the best pieces of acceleration in Legacy at this point alongside his other fine qualities.

I'm playing against Uwr Aggro last night and I have Treasure Cruise in the hand and I'm staring at a board with Goyf on my side and a flipped Delver on his and I really want to delve for TC but it's going to cost me a 4/5 Goyf going to 2/3 or worse. My DRS was hitting his GY from turn 2 on and then he delved for TC on turn 4 and I countered it so there is just a Sorcery in his GY at the moment. I have Ponder, Counterspell, Polluted Delta x2, Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay in my GY and 3 mana on the board. I have TC, Goyf, Repeal and an Island (just drew it) in hand. The catch is it's 11-6 in his favor and I have no idea if he has Force of Will at this point. We both hit each other once after his failed delve and I don't know if he sandbagged the Force of Will on his delve to protect his win-con.

So I'm staring at a 4/5 Goyf and delving for TC is going to make him smaller. I have another Goyf ready to replace him but the Delver on the other side is going to do me in two turns. I have several potential outs, including the Repeal in my hand, which is cheap to cast on the flipped Delver and will draw me a card, and of course I have TC which will draw me 3 whenever I can afford to shrink the Goyfs for a turn or 2. It's going to cost me a near tap out to do all of that and he's playing red with 1 bolt and 1 Price of Progress already played but no other damage spells seen yet.

I attack with the Goyf to get him down to 7 and then drop the Island, hold my breath and delve Ponder, Counterspell, Polluted Delta x2, Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay and tap 2 to play Treasure Cruise. I delved the whole yard because I needed to keep 2 mana up for the Repeal to get it through a Daze if necessary. I also really wanted to bluff a Counterspell in case he bolted or PoP'd in response to my TC. My Goyf is now 1/2 with just a Sorcery in each GY. He does come over the top with a Force of Will and the Goyf goes to 2/3, which it would have been a second later anyway because I Repeal his Delver and draw a card, which is Treasure Cruise...

It turned into a loss in the end in which neither side successfully resolved TC and my Goyfs were little dudes in the end game. I'm ready to try Treasure Hunt instead of Treasure Cruise at this point. It'll get me by bad pockets of land in the mid-game and it will replace it self with another non-land card and it won't shrink my Goyfs.

BTW, I fully accept that there's been a change in the card advantage equation. You can't not react to the presence of Treasure Cruise in the meta. You'll die to worse lists that draw it against you at a bad time anyway. My reaction so far is 2 Counterspells main list, 2 Repeals (draws a card) main list as removal and the knowledge that I need even more card advantage to maintain parity. If I really want to keep playing Goyf it can't be Treasure Cruise though, hence the plan to look at Treasure Hunt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

I have Counterspell, Repeal and an Island

---

....

Quote:

---

I'm ready to try Treasure Hunt instead of Treasure Cruise at this point. It'll get me by bad pockets of land in the mid-game and it will replace it self with another non-land card and it won't shrink my Goyfs.

---

I'd start by getting rid of those pretty weak cards first. They're more likely why you're losing than shrinking a Goyf.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorpT

I'd start by getting rid of those pretty weak cards first. They're more likely why you're losing than shrinking a Goyf.

---

++, I nearly spit out my coffee when I saw Repeal.

Just as a note, I think for those who have not tried Cruise before, it's probably a good idea to start with the list wcm8 proposed and make changes from there after you've played a good number of games with it. For reference:

Lands (20)
9 Fetches
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells (28)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Liliana of the Veil

I have found this to be pretty rock solid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorpT

....



I'd start by getting rid of those pretty weak cards first. They're more likely why you're losing than shrinking a Goyf.

---

Repeal is a cantrip that puts a permanent back in the opponent's hand. The difference between a flipped Delver or a Goblin Guide not hitting you on turn 2 after you've gotten a look at the top of your library is kind of real.

The big advantage though is that it effects the board without losing you a card in the process. One perfect example is when your opponent bolts, plows or Abrupt Decays a DRS or Delver. That's the card back in your hand plus a draw and the opponent having traded 1-for-1 on the cards that accomplished that. How come you guys think that delving your GY for +2 cards is great and blocking the opponent's attempt to remove for +2 cards is not? In a list with big permanents Repeal would kind of suck but in this list in this meta it's not a bad card at all. It also bounces tokens, even big ones like Marit Lage, for a profit.

I get that it's bounce, but look at what it actually does and for how much cost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Repeal is a cantrip that puts a permanent back in the opponent's hand. The difference between a flipped Delver or a Goblin Guide not hitting you on turn 2 after you've gotten a look at the top of your library is kind of real.

The big advantage though is that it effects the board without losing you a card in the process. One perfect example is when your opponent bolts, plows or Abrupt Decays a DRS or Delver. That's the card back in your hand plus a draw and the opponent having traded 1-for-1 on the cards that accomplished that. How come you guys think that delving your GY for +2 cards is great and blocking the opponent's attempt to remove for +2 cards is not? In a list with big permanents Repeal would kind of suck but in this list in this meta it's not a bad card at all. It also bounces tokens, even big ones like Marit Lage, for a profit.

I get that it's bounce, but look at what it actually does and for how much cost.

---

We have other answers to Marit Lage that are better than Repeal. If Stage/Depths is a concern in your meta, I'd be running some number of Needles in the board. If you want removal for it, Diabolic Edict is far less situational and usually cheaper despite not being able to answer noncreature permanents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorpT

Sultai Charm is blue and an instant and which are not irrelevant. I played it some today and it was ok. Not amazing, but not terrible. Might be better off as a 3rd Treasure Cruise though.

---

Blue and instant aren't irrelevant, but they aren't everything, either. I think that on balance I'd rather have Pulse first because it can destroy Planeswalkers, second because it's less color intensive, and third because it's a good out to Entreat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AngryTroll

Finally, with this third mode instead of it's current awful mode, Dimir Charm would have been awesome and I'd definitely play at least one.

---

Obviously I agree with you on Pulse, but I've gotten a ton of mileage out of Dimir Charm. It's a very flexible piece of removal (Goyf and flipped Delvers are the only commonly encountered creatures it doesn't kill) and an answer to lots of relevant spells like Show and Tell, Hymn, Terminus, Maelstrom Pulse, Ancestral Vision, Treasure Cruise, and Entreat.

Diabolic Edict is much more conditional than Repeal. You don't get to choose which creature the opponent sacs, so you really only tune it in when it's going to be a one creature proposition.

Repeal lets you put the thing you need to have off the board back in their hand before you Thoughtseize, Hymn, wait on it with a counter, etc. It supplies a draw that could even be the card you need to completely resolve the situation, assuming you don't already have the answer in hand, just no way for it to effect the board, since discard and counters don't effect the board at all.

There are so many early plays against BUG that are just highly destructive to our position since we tend to tap out early on. Having a way to deal with them after the fact aside from Abrupt Decay is a good thing.

I get that people aren't going to understand this right now but this meta has become very hostile to BUG and RUG overnight. Treasure Cruise is a dagger aimed straight at the heart of RUG that will force them to find adaptations to remain a tier list. It's just as bad against BUG despite DRS being one of the better solutions for it. We don't have the escape of access to red to adapt. No Nimble Mongoose for Young Pyromancer adaptations for us. No main list REB's if this truly turns into a TC meta. No REB's from the sideboard otherwise.

- Goyf is not the powerhouse he was if we're looking to delve.

- Our draws are not as consistent as they were if we're playing 3 or 4 TC.

- The opponent's ability to recover from a turn 2 Hymn has been amplified.

If we take TC out of their hand, well that was an unwieldy early turn asset anyway. If we miss it, well they're a bit closer to recovery by casting TC earlier to regain hand position.

- Two other Delver lists Uwr and UR have become much stronger with no adverse side effects. They actually get to shrink our Goyfs and deprive our DRS of what it most wants at the moment.

- Liliana, who was a good asset now becomes more unwieldy to use although likely still a good asset.

The adaptations that BUG is going to have to find revolve around lessening the dependency we have on the GY so that TC becomes just a huge plus card or downplaying TC and finding other methods of gaining card advantage to keep up with Uwr and UR.

Tarmogoyf and Treasure Cruise <> synergy. That has to be obvious to everybody at this point. Powerful cards that do not share synergy tend to be glittery junk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Tarmogoyf and Treasure Cruise <> synergy. That has to be obvious to everybody at this point. Powerful cards that do not share synergy tend to be glittery junk.

---

Like Goyf and DRS together in the same deck?

Quote:

---

I get that people aren't going to understand this right now but this meta has become very hostile to BUG and RUG overnight.

---

And the answer to a changing meta is not to run bad cards like Repeall. It doesn't sound like I'm going to convince you that Repeal should not be played, and you're not going to convince me that it should be played.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorpT

Like Goyf and DRS together in the same deck?

---

If DRS took 5+ cards out of the GY when activated and could only take from our GY you would have a point. Of course if that were the case we probably wouldn't be playing one of DRS or Goyf.

TC takes GY's down to a collective 3 or 4 cards by turn 4 many games. Goyf just isn't going to be good enough in that environment. If we're delving alongside the opponent Goyf is probably going to have to go. I've got 6 matches since Friday that tell me pretty conclusively that Goyf is now a 2/3 or 3/4 in the mid game most of the time. This is because I've been delving alongside the opponent. Step 1 in trying to fix this is going to be finding ways to get CA without delving. Step 2 is going to have to be finding a better answer than Goyf and if that is not possible probably abandoning green to look at Grixis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorpT

And the answer to a changing meta is not to run bad cards like Repeall. It doesn't sound like I'm going to convince you that Repeal should not be played, and you're not going to convince me that it should be played.

---

I get that you aren't going to change your mind at the moment. That's understandable. When I went looking for additional card advantage Sunday morning the idea of including bounce was far from my mind. Repeal went in as a 2-of experimentally to be Abrupt Decay 5-6 and an additional cantrip. I realized after I played a match that it wasn't as bad as it seemed, not by a longshot. It reactivates cards in our hand that have gone past their expiration date like Thoughtseize and Hymn. It doesn't cost us a card to do this.

It's an instant that can save our assets and go +2 vs the opponent in the process. They thought they were trading removal for our asset, and removal is a precious thing late game. Instead they traded their removal for Repeal and we got both an additional card and to replay the thing they were trying to remove. If they're trying to remove a blocker to kill us then we let them and put their attacker back in hand, gaining a turn and and additional card to potentially deal with it. Obviously if this was Repeal instead of Abrupt Decay that would be a horrible trade off for us but the Repeals are decays 5-6, they don't replace the first 4 they supplement them.

Play some in this meta and see if additional disruption + a card doesn't seem right to you. Maybe your experience will be different but it's not like Repeal is just a bounce spell.

I still don't get how a deck that used Tombstalker + Goyf is arguing at all about TC + Goyf; it's the same thing but easier to cast and significantly better (most of the time.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Diabolic Edict is much more conditional than Repeal. You don't get to choose which creature the opponent sacs, so you really only tune it in when it's going to be a one creature proposition.

Repeal lets you put the thing you need to have off the board back in their hand before you Thoughtseize, Hymn, wait on it with a counter, etc. It supplies a draw that could even be the card you need to completely resolve the situation, assuming you don't already have the answer in hand, just no way for it to effect the board, since discard and counters don't effect the board at all.

There are so many early plays against BUG that are just highly destructive to our position since we tend to tap out early on. Having a way to deal with them after the fact aside from Abrupt Decay is a good thing.

I get that people aren't going to understand this right now but this meta has become very hostile to BUG and RUG overnight. Treasure Cruise is a dagger aimed straight at the heart of RUG that will force them to find adaptations to remain a tier list. It's just as bad against BUG despite DRS being one of the better solutions for it. We don't have the escape of access to red to adapt. No Nimble Mongoose for Young Pyromancer adaptations for us. No main list REB's if this truly turns into a TC meta. No REB's from the sideboard otherwise.

- Goyf is not the powerhouse he was if we're looking to delve.

- Our draws are not as consistent as they were if we're playing 3 or 4 TC.

- The opponent's ability to recover from a turn 2 Hymn has been amplified.

If we take TC out of their hand, well that was an unwieldy early turn asset anyway. If we miss it, well they're a bit closer to recovery by casting TC earlier to regain hand position.

- Two other Delver lists Uwr and UR have become much stronger with no adverse side effects. They actually get to shrink our Goyfs and deprive our DRS of what it most wants at the moment.

- Liliana, who was a good asset now becomes more unwieldy to use although likely still a good asset.

The adaptations that BUG is going to have to find revolve around lessening the dependency we have on the GY so that TC becomes just a huge plus card or downplaying TC and finding other methods of gaining card advantage to keep up with Uwr and UR.

Tarmogoyf and Treasure Cruise <> synergy. That has to be obvious to everybody at this point. Powerful cards that do not share synergy tend to be glittery junk.

---

You sound like someone who hasn't played with Cruise, or has played with it with too many awkward cards. It's fine with Goyf; I've never shrunk mine by (net) more than a single power precombat. You occasionally have to make a decision about whether to Delve now or Delve later, but that's a decision that will become routine soon enough.

I'm not scared of UWR Delver with Cruise at all. It was a favorable matchup already, and I see no reason to expect it to do anything but remain favorable. UR did get better, but I don't see UR as a major BUG predator, especially if the list that emerges doesn't run Price of Progress. We've still got plenty of tools for that matchup.

On Repeal - the number of permanents that can be profitably answered with Repeal is pretty small. It can answer tokens for U, but we have answers a plenty for tokens with Decay, and there are far better answers to Marit Lage. It's not an answer to opposing Goyfs except in corner cases where it lets you push through a lethal attack, and in that case I'll take my chances with more versatile answers. Unlike Diabolic Edict - a card I don't think needs a slot unless you've got tons of Reanimator, Stage/Depths, 12Post, and Sneak and Show in your meta - it can't answer TNN or Nimble Mongoose at all, and as a practical matter it can't answer Planeswalkers or any Artifact or Enchatment that isn't better handled by Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, or Maelstrom Pulse. It's a fine card in 12Post where making 5-6 mana is trivial and the whole point is to buy time. We need cards that are real answers or kill our opponent and Repeal helps neither plan.

EDIT:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tescrin

I still don't get how a deck that used Tombstalker + Goyf is arguing at all about TC + Goyf; it's the same thing but easier to cast and significantly better (most of the time.)

---

This.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tescrin

I still don't get how a deck that used Tombstalker + Goyf is arguing at all about TC + Goyf; it's the same thing but easier to cast and significantly better (most of the time.)

---

The opponent wasn't delving also. The Tombstalker on the board was better than the Goyf in the hand, since he had evasion. Didn't get hit by Abrupt Decay either.

It's not the same thing at all. The GY is now a major resource in the meta and not in the passive way that it used to be. Goyfs just aren't going to be as big as they used to be. BUG and RUG can still keep them big by not delving and controlling opposing DRS but that's kind of what you need to do.

I didn't have a 5/6 Goyf all weekend. Not a single time.

Seems like eveyrone and their mom is running more than 3 TC's

The graveyard will be one empty place now.

Goyf may not even be a good creature anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

The opponent wasn't delving also. The Tombstalker on the board was better than the Goyf in the hand, since he had evasion. Didn't get hit by Abrupt Decay either.

It's not the same thing at all. The GY is now a major resource in the meta and not in the passive way that it used to be. Goyfs just aren't going to be as big as they used to be. BUG and RUG can still keep them big by not delving and controlling opposing DRS but that's kind of what you need to do.

I didn't have a 5/6 Goyf all weekend. Not a single time.

---

5/6 goyf is not the easiest to achieve.

4/5 goyf is probably the most common.

Time to include some Envelops to board?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by btm10

On Repeal - the number of permanents that can be profitably answered with Repeal is pretty small. It can answer tokens for U, but we have answers a plenty for tokens with Decay, and there are far better answers to Marit Lage. It's not an answer to opposing Goyfs except in corner cases where it lets you push through a lethal attack, and in that case I'll take my chances with more versatile answers. Unlike Diabolic Edict - a card I don't think needs a slot unless you've got tons of Reanimator, Stage/Depths, 12Post, and Sneak and Show in your meta - it can't answer TNN or Nimble Mongoose at all, and as a practical matter it can't answer Planeswalkers or any Artifact or Enchatment that isn't better handled by Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, or Maelstrom Pulse. It's a fine card in 12Post where making 5-6 mana is trivial and the whole point is to buy time. We need cards that are real answers or kill our opponent and Repeal helps neither plan.

---

Permanents that Repeal manages well: Delver, DRS, Goyf, Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Guide, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Dark Confidant (+1 card, the one they'd have seen on their upkeep), Aether Vial, Mom, Elf dork on the play (anything to slow them down and draw into the sweeper after game 1 when I'm on the play about 75% of the time), basically any 1cc permanent, most 2cc permanents not in D&T, all tokens not hexproofed and the very occasional bigger permanent at a swingy point in the game (this always a card that Abrupt Decay is dead against.)

Then of course it manages ALL of your own permanents well except for Goyf under D&T or Liliana if she's in.

It does not manage Nimble Mongoose and Sensei's Divining Top. One of those cards is no longer playable in Legacy as we'll soon see.