[Deck] U/G Infect

5th yesterday on a 20man Kick Engines Duel for Duals Legacy Open, Manila
Ranked 1st after 5rnds of swiss on a meta filled with mud variants, 4-1 with a loss only to eventual champ grixis pyro.
almost got into the final 4 picture once again.. but just went short... Played the white splash last night.

19 lands (3trops, sav, wasteland, 8 fetches, inkmoths)
4 fows, 1 sylvan main

helpers:
1 surgical / 1rip / 1 relic progenitus
2 stps
2 pneedles
2 kgrips / 1 vcorrupter / 1 seal primordium
1 pierce / 1 flusterstorm / 1 envelop
1 reality ripple

1 - 0 (2-0) SHARDLESS BUG
Got a fast kill game 1, probe helped me sequencing the right time for the kill, couldve made an error by goin all in and not waiting for the next blue source i needed to fuel my fow... 2nd game i had an opening of 3 inkmoths, he tried wastelanding one, i croprot'd... i tried surgicalling his wasteland he fow'd back thus leaving my next pumpspells free from permissions the next turns.

1 - 1 (0-2) GRIXIS PYRO
They just have a fast clock vs us, together with the mix we infect players hate... cheap removals and permissions. I almost got there both games, a very lucky brainstorm from my opponent with 2 blank cards that gave him both a fow and a blue card to counter my final invi sealed it.

2 - 1 (2 - 0) MIRACLES
I had nuts draw game 1, though he had multiple fows when i probed him.. but after landing an uncountered glistener i luckliy drew in bimmense, then vines altogether with 3 invis in my opening.. i didnt had permission, only bombs! Game 2 he was unlucky mulling to 5 as he was not able to have any land... i had 2 needles at hand and blind naming flooded strand with my 1st needle (i listed early seeing it twice game1) and that mattered! He never established any relevant defense after this.

3 - 1 (2 - 0)DNT
4 - 1 (2 - 0) DNT

This was a favorable matchup i love playing. Key is multiple nobles and they'll help us big time! My SB too was heavily loaded on artifact hate (expecting a MUD day). Always leave a certain number of FOWS, I almost lost one game after my opponent casted 2 cataclysms, good thing i had with me all that 2 FOWS i left. Nobles will help us through army of taxes and mana hate, and not good players will board out REVOKERS as it has no app vs inkmoth.

Quarterfinals (1 - 2 MUD)
This was suppose to be a good matchup for me, i seldomly lose to this guy, whom i always played with in the shop.. so i had great confidence. Playing first I had a great keep and went to game 2 that fast. Game2 wherein he had multiple TKS,. and these are the new tools theyve added on that somehow improved their matchup vs us. Ive always felt positive vs MUD, counter em locks and combo them away... but not anymore this time with the printing on TKS (thought-knot seer). Game 3 i had multiple blighteds, he dropped tks and got my lone invi... later on the game he added ENDBRINGER, he ping'ed and i crop rot'd for PENDEL, I attacked once again with 3 blighteds and dropped Vince Carter (viridian corrupter) to destroy his needle (inkmoth) and next turn would be another top 4 for me... both players have no cards at hand..... When ALL was settled to DUST! : (

Well, part of the game! you win some and lose some. Atleast we're happy together going home with a fellow teammate taking 6th place (AFFINITY)
The finals was a GRIXIS PYRO mirror. There are only 3 delver decks in the room, the other is TA.

SB changes: I shouldve brought in atleast 1 HYDRO, or next time might carry with me 1 ABSOLUTE LAW.
The deck once again performed well for me, i usually play RUGDELVER on other places except this place where we have lots of delver hate. I think its very well positioned right now, thus giving us another appearance here in DTB this March. Have fun infecting people!

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Originally Posted by Jesture

Tried it out at a couple of weeklies. It was... bad? Went about exactly how you'd expect it to, a 2 mana spell that was only playable in response to other spells. You also couldn't copy your own pump spells unless you held priority and opened yourself up to the 3 for 1, so it was really just a 2 mana answer to Force of Will.

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I guess the main idea was to copy Digs but now there's no such single, powerful and widely played card in the format to justify a slot. Just wondering if it had been contributing to more double-Invigorates or something like that. Two mana seems very rough in any case.

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Originally Posted by Hopo

I guess the main idea was to copy Digs but now there's no such single, powerful and widely played card in the format to justify a slot. Just wondering if it had been contributing to more double-Invigorates or something like that. Two mana seems very rough in any case.

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Jace, vryn's prodigy seems like a better alternative here. The looting effect is good at digging you into gas, flipping him is comically easy in legacy, and the flashback effect allows for alternative casting costs letting you target a FoW or Invigorate depending on the game needs. It does imply that you will be taking a slower route to victory though how much slower is debatable.

Noob question here:

Why do I often see 2 SB submerge?

All I can really figure is for delver decks with trops (Zombie Fish seems like a nice target) and the mirror.

Is there something I am missing? Because these applications seem very narrow and not necessarily game breaking

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Originally Posted by Cwoj

Noob question here:

Why do I often see 2 SB submerge?

All I can really figure is for delver decks with trops (Zombie Fish seems like a nice target) and the mirror.

Is there something I am missing? Because these applications seem very narrow and not necessarily game breaking

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Pure joy is... Submerging your opponent's Gurmag Angler after they've used a Cantrip to set up a Delver flip.

On a more serious note, you'll usually see some number of Swords to Plowshares or Submerges in any given sideboard. StP is 100% to be for white splash lists but Submerge can be played in Bant or U/G depending on the list.

At the heart of it, it's all cheap creature removal and each has clear pros and cons. StP of course is a more permanent solution and the life gain is pretty negligible in a deck like ours. Submerge is potentially a free spell and also has the added upside of denying your opponent a draw step which, in a format as fast as Legacy, can often buy you that single turn you need to win. Downsides, StP costs one more mana and occasionally gets stuck in hand by Chalice while Submerge is really only playable against decks with Forests.

I'd say you're playing one or both in your sideboard, as they fill somewhat similar roles. In the end, it really just depends on what colors your playing and what you're expecting to play against.

Has anyone tried Umezawa's jitte?
It seems to work against delver, also it's an additional pump spell
A bit slow though

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Originally Posted by Elessar

Has anyone tried Umezawa's jitte?
It seems to work against delver, also it's an additional pump spell
A bit slow though

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It does sound good on paper, but it is slow yes.
Tapping out almost 2 turns to cast and equip it seems less optimal as you have no mana up for vines or protection.

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Originally Posted by Elessar

Has anyone tried Umezawa's jitte?
It seems to work against delver, also it's an additional pump spell
A bit slow though

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I would consider putting one in the SB against the mirror (there's nothing I hate seeing more than Jitte when playing Infect) but I think it would be too slow otherwise.

It certainly deserves some testing though - I just am not sure tapping out to equip something is the right approach when we need our mana for Vines/Spell Pierces/Flusterstorms, etc. If you end up testing it out and having success with it, let us know :smile:

what is good against white eldrazi if we are on u/g infect? specifically eldrazi displacer is pretty difficult to play around. I was thinking pithing needle, but they play chalice. dismember maybe, but 4 life is a decent chunk against them.

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Originally Posted by ns407

what is good against white eldrazi if we are on u/g infect? specifically eldrazi displacer is pretty difficult to play around. I was thinking pithing needle, but they play chalice. dismember maybe, but 4 life is a decent chunk against them.

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Revoker.

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Originally Posted by ns407

what is good against white eldrazi if we are on u/g infect? specifically eldrazi displacer is pretty difficult to play around. I was thinking pithing needle, but they play chalice. dismember maybe, but 4 life is a decent chunk against them.

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Is this really a problem? The Eldrazi matchup is definitely something to think about, but unless I'm missing something white Eldrazi should just be a bit like mono brown Eldrazi but slower. What is it exactly that's giving you trouble with Eldrazi Displacer? What are they blinking besides your creatures that's giving you trouble, and do you really need to bring in hate cards to disrupt an engine that comes online no sooner than turn 3? Revoker seems awful, it's a two mana one toughness hate bear that does nothing to further our game plan. If you're playing one, you're not getting any closer to winning and probably just slowing the process of losing by a turn or two.

Edit: I think it's kind of a fruitless thought experiment to try and address two different kinds of hate at the same time. The kinds of hoops you'd have to jump through to beat an Eldrazi Displacer and a Chalice on one just aren't worth the deck building constraints you're putting on yourself. I think your best bet is to include a good amount of artifact hate, then maybe Needle and Dismember in your sideboard if you're still worried about Displacer. Excluding extraordinary circumstances, I can't imagine this particular interaction of cards occurring more than once in any given event. A card in the 75 specifically to beat Displacer with a Chalice in play is just far too narrow to be serviceable in pretty much all other situations.

I agree on what Jesture said, i treat this matchup just like an ordinary MUD matchup.. and since i really board in lots of hate vs my MUD metafilled local, i do have answers for their hate. I have 2 needles (expect endbringers too), 2 kgrips, 2 stps for TKS or biggies, and a seal primordium...alongside a Vcorrupter. Add another if your meta warrants it. Ive maindecked 4th FOW coz i hate losing to an early chalice1.. and if i'll see more of these eldrazi decks in the coming weeks, I might put in HALL OF GEMSTONE in my sb (my local shop sold it cheap, glad i still was able to get 1 : )

My only issue vs Eldrazi is TKS, coz they wreck our hand and present a relevant clock, and fows are meant for more impt tax spell they cast.
I think we're always favorable vs MUD before TKS, but now they brought in new tools.

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Originally Posted by Jesture

Is this really a problem? The Eldrazi matchup is definitely something to think about, but unless I'm missing something white Eldrazi should just be a bit like mono brown Eldrazi but slower. What is it exactly that's giving you trouble with Eldrazi Displacer? What are they blinking besides your creatures that's giving you trouble, and do you really need to bring in hate cards to disrupt an engine that comes online no sooner than turn 3? Revoker seems awful, it's a two mana one toughness hate bear that does nothing to further our game plan. If you're playing one, you're not getting any closer to winning and probably just slowing the process of losing by a turn or two.

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I mean our deck wins on the back of 1 or 2 creatures usually and resolving pumps onto those creatures right? If we can't ever attack or resolve pumps how do we get there? You're gonna lose the race against them if you're just resolving 1 or 2 infect a turn. I played against it in an event a couple weeks ago and just was entirely unable to answer a displacer in g2/3....can't counter it either cause of cavern of souls.

I would actually much rather play against mono eldrazi cause winning through a chalice isn't that hard.

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Originally Posted by Jesture

Edit: I think it's kind of a fruitless thought experiment to try and address two different kinds of hate at the same time. The kinds of hoops you'd have to jump through to beat an Eldrazi Displacer and a Chalice on one just aren't worth the deck building constraints you're putting on yourself. I think your best bet is to include a good amount of artifact hate, then maybe Needle and Dismember in your sideboard if you're still worried about Displacer. Excluding extraordinary circumstances, I can't imagine this particular interaction of cards occurring more than once in any given event. A card in the 75 specifically to beat Displacer with a Chalice in play is just far too narrow to be serviceable in pretty much all other situations.

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This makes sense.

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Originally Posted by ns407

I mean our deck wins on the back of 1 or 2 creatures usually and resolving pumps onto those creatures right? If we can't ever attack or resolve pumps how do we get there? You're gonna lose the race against them if you're just resolving 1 or 2 infect a turn. I played against it in an event a couple weeks ago and just was entirely unable to answer a displacer in g2/3....can't counter it either cause of cavern of souls.

I would actually much rather play against mono eldrazi cause winning through a chalice isn't that hard.



This makes sense.

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There are answers for displacer, with the eldrazi threat level being max high right now there are more wasteland decks doing well too which also pose a similar problem but we can use the same answers. Currently I'm on a 1 of tefari's response, 3 vines and 2 crop rotation main. I cut the main deck corrupter I had and moved sylvan library to the board and I'm considering cutting it. I know it's good, but I really dislike in game one. I agree beating a chalice is much easier than beating a displacer but like most difficult matchups I think inkmoth is the key.

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Originally Posted by shocked439

There are answers for displacer, with the eldrazi threat level being max high right now there are more wasteland decks doing well too which also pose a similar problem but we can use the same answers. Currently I'm on a 1 of tefari's response, 3 vines and 2 crop rotation main. I cut the main deck corrupter I had and moved sylvan library to the board and I'm considering cutting it. I know it's good, but I really dislike in game one. I agree beating a chalice is much easier than beating a displacer but like most difficult matchups I think inkmoth is the key.

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Never tried teferis response main deck before...its bold but for a certain meta I could see it being good; people are always after ol' inky. How has it been for you?

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Originally Posted by Witch_king_of_angmar

Never tried teferis response main deck before...its bold but for a certain meta I could see it being good; people are always after ol' inky. How has it been for you?

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I've had great experiences with it. One in the board has seem good for me, however there has not been a lot of wastelands around in my meta so I've not been playing it for a while, though im considering it again.

Problem is that it is completely dead sometimes. For example against bug. You want to have it at the ready, but if they dont draw wasteland it is completely useless as decay cant target inkmoth. Its way better against rug or UWR perhaps IMO.

My greatest memory was when I attacked with inkmoth, opp. bolts it or something, teferi --> counters bolt, draw two invigorate, hit for 9 instead. LAWL..
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I did a tourny yesterday and went 5th place. Lost match 1 against storm where he goes off turn 2 and second turn where he top decks tendrils when he was at 1 life (had dryad arbor) and 9 poison facing inkmoth.... Lost last match against shardless where i forgot he could kill me with creeping tar pit and chose not to kill him with become immense and inkmoth........ G2 He lands night of souls betrayal and a lot of other stuff.

The 4 other matches were against Shardless, Omnishow, UWR control and death shadow The first and latter was very nice.
Against Shardless he double waste my trops, so I only have noble, forest and draws arbor....
My hand is invi invi bers bers vines :p.. He has goyf(tapped), DRS, robot owl(tapped), lily.
I attack with noble and he blocks with DRS and drains me, I pump noble with invi to kill it and he goes to 16 life. his turn, plays land, +1 lily -> I discard vines. He attacks with goyf and owl.
I draw submerge, which didnt really matter. I attack with arbor, pump (he goes to 19), berserk for 10, berserk for 20. :) greatest experience ever.

Against death shadow He seizes me and takes noble, I draw noble and passes. He gut shots noble.... i have fetch land. He is on 7 with angler and few cards.
EOT i fetch for arbor and pumps it with bimmense for the kill.

Dual reg.damage kill ftw :) Had to share with you!

I tried Arbor, Zenith and Corrupter for the first time and didnt ever use the two latter. Im thinking of just cutting them and going back to either the 3. vines or piracy charm, and then another croprot+waste in the board.
How is peoples experience with a second waste SB? How often do you use it?

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Originally Posted by Witch_king_of_angmar

Never tried teferis response main deck before...its bold but for a certain meta I could see it being good; people are always after ol' inky. How has it been for you?

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I'm not sold on it. In my flex spots I vary wildly, I've tried everything from piracy charm, a maindeck corrupter, more vines and ponder, to tefari's response and reality ripple. I really liked the reality ripple, I like the idea of tefari's but it is situational. It can be pitched to FOW which is a plus over the corrupter and vines. It is an easy card to board out. I think in a known meta it is a better decision, if you are going into a large event I would move it to the board and go with something less situational like ripple or charm. However, if the eldrazi menace continues I would expect a lot of land destruction effects to deal with them and might consider main.

How do people feel about GSZ and dryad arbor? I've got a few events under my belt now and overall have just been underwhelmed by both cards. I've had several games where I draw GSZ and it's just not needed. Likewise with Dryad Arbor I don't think I've had any games yet where it has added any value. I understand the uses of it, but I feel like it may be better as a sideboard card than main deck.

I'm thinking of running an additional Ponder over the GSZ and replacing Dryad Arbor with either a 2nd Become Immense, Vines of Vastwood (2 currently), or 4th FoW. I feel like these 3 cards are always going to be good, whereas GSZ and Dryad Arbor are only good rarely.

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Originally Posted by ns407

How do people feel about GSZ and dryad arbor? I've got a few events under my belt now and overall have just been underwhelmed by both cards. I've had several games where I draw GSZ and it's just not needed. Likewise with Dryad Arbor I don't think I've had any games yet where it has added any value. I understand the uses of it, but I feel like it may be better as a sideboard card than main deck.

I'm thinking of running an additional Ponder over the GSZ and replacing Dryad Arbor with either a 2nd Become Immense, Vines of Vastwood (2 currently), or 4th FoW. I feel like these 3 cards are always going to be good, whereas GSZ and Dryad Arbor are only good rarely.

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I prefer the consistency of other core cards instead personally, though dryad Arbor feels pretty good from time to time when you want a surprise blocker off a fetch.

I've been using a piracy charm and stifle in those flex slots but not sure if those are correct either. I wouldn't go less than 3 vines personally and I'm still playing the sylvan main due to a lot of miracles and other grindy decks in my area, I find it helps a ton to get what you need.

Been considering adding the 4th fow main deck for quite some time and I think that's the next thing I'll test out. Just seems really good.... I've tried the 4th daze as well but went back down to 3 in the end.

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Originally Posted by ns407

How do people feel about GSZ and dryad arbor? I've got a few events under my belt now and overall have just been underwhelmed by both cards. I've had several games where I draw GSZ and it's just not needed. Likewise with Dryad Arbor I don't think I've had any games yet where it has added any value. I understand the uses of it, but I feel like it may be better as a sideboard card than main deck.

I'm thinking of running an additional Ponder over the GSZ and replacing Dryad Arbor with either a 2nd Become Immense, Vines of Vastwood (2 currently), or 4th FoW. I feel like these 3 cards are always going to be good, whereas GSZ and Dryad Arbor are only good rarely.

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IMO, GSZ is only good if you're going to run Viridian Corrupter MD/SB and you expect a combination of Miracles and Jitte Decks to be heavy in your metagame. As a singleton that can only find Dryad Arbor and Elf/Hierarch it's pretty underwhelming. The power of the card is not as a 5th copy of things, but as a malleable tutor for Silver bullets.

Personally, I don't like Dryad Arbor much at all. That's most likely preference though because of how I play. If you're considering dropping the package, the 3rd Vines is more important that 2nd BI. I tried out a 4th FoW at SCG Philly and it was pretty good.

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Originally Posted by ns407

How do people feel about GSZ and dryad arbor? I've got a few events under my belt now and overall have just been underwhelmed by both cards. I've had several games where I draw GSZ and it's just not needed. Likewise with Dryad Arbor I don't think I've had any games yet where it has added any value. I understand the uses of it, but I feel like it may be better as a sideboard card than main deck.

I'm thinking of running an additional Ponder over the GSZ and replacing Dryad Arbor with either a 2nd Become Immense, Vines of Vastwood (2 currently), or 4th FoW. I feel like these 3 cards are always going to be good, whereas GSZ and Dryad Arbor are only good rarely.

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I love love love GSZ and dryad arbor. The worst GSZ has ever been is an extra exalted trigger and a shuffle effect. The best it is an maindeck answer to jittes, a way to get around top lock out (always GSZ for three miracles runs the fewest numbers of threes even if you are getting a glistner elf). As for Arbor reconsider how often you switch game plans and go from infect damage to regular damage. An end of turn fetch for arbor is wonderful. If arbor is stuck in your hand brainstorm and shuffle it away like you would do any other excessive land. I can't tell you the number of times I've brainstormed put two trops back and fetched for a trop just grabbing the one I know is on top and shuffling away as happy as can be. If you play against ad naus think about fetching arbor with hierarchs in play and forcing them to ad naus sooner then they want to.

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Originally Posted by Delarock

Playing this list this weekend at Philly.

1 Become Immense
2 Berserk
4 Blighted Agent
4 Brainstorm
1 Crop Rotation
3 Daze
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Force of Will
1 Forest
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Glistener Elf
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Invigorate
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Pendelhaven
1 Piracy Charm
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library
4 Tropical Island
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Vines of Vastwood
1 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

The Piracy Charm hasn't really done much for me, considering swapping it out for a Ponder. Also, I'm considering swapping out the Sylvan Library for a Viridian Corrupter. Any suggestions?

Sideboard:

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Hydroblast
1 Karakas
1 Krosan Grip
1 Nature's Claim
1 Necropede
1 Spellskite
2 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Wasteland

I feel like I might need more GY hate but don't have access to a Savannah. Was considering it for the STP/RiP package, but I think the Crop Rotation package is slightly more versatile. Also considering squeezing in a Pithing Needle.

Any suggestions? I was testing a list that was +1 Ponder, +1 Gitaxian Probe; -1 Piracy Charm, -1 Sylvan Library. I liked it, but I'm not sure if taking out a Sylvan Library is right. I've always felt slightly short on blue for FoW.

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I play the white splash and it did improve my matches vs grixis, lands, gy decks... with helpers like STPs/ absolute law/ RIP
sylvan library is a meta call decision, i have numerous grindy decks in my meta with MUD, miracles, lands and itll be a great help if u have it main, though in a combo infested meta, i would cut it and insert in another cantrip in the form of a 3rd probe or 2nd ponder.
Needles are GREAT! i always have 2 in my SB, and almost all the time they go in. very good vs tops, lands, griselbrand, wastelands, eldrazi toys, lilli's.... just about anything we hate. I have games won too via probing (or just plain listing enemy fetches) and naming them, suppressing their development is key.

Regarding the disruption slots:
Does anyone have experience or insights in playing two or more Flusterstorms in maindeck? I have the typical 6 free counters + 2 pierce + 1 Flusterstorm + 1 Stifle and would love to have a second Fluster there as it does a lot of work and as a bonus would free a SB slot. The only volatile slot I'm willing to consider is my 1-of Stifle. Opinions, which one is better when preparing for a GP? Stifle and a slightly more diverse disruption package or Flusterstorm and it's ability to control almost any stack? Or maybe even something else? 3rd Spell Pierce?

Flusterstorm is stronger against storm. That is one of my drivers for the change as even when my record against storm decks is quite good in tournaments, the matchup feels most of the time frustrating. On the other hand, Flusterstorms from the board have been gamebreaking. Stifle can do surprising things no other card in the maindeck can but is such card needed in md - maybe not. Stifle can't protect the kill outside some Jitte-harrasment or similar while Flusterstorm does it better than anything. Neither of the cards shines against eldrazis: at best Flusterstorm can counter a removal spell through Chalice while Stifle can counter Displacer-blinks or Seer-triggers or whatnot _if_ there's no Chalice around.

I also put a lot of emphasis on the aspect of getting one more SB slot, as I can't otherwise reasonably fit in another much needed anti-red card, be it Chill, Absolute Law, Hydroblast or [insert suggestion].

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Originally Posted by Hopo

Regarding the disruption slots:
Does anyone have experience or insights in playing two or more Flusterstorms in maindeck? I have the typical 6 free counters + 2 pierce + 1 Flusterstorm + 1 Stifle and would love to have a second Fluster there as it does a lot of work and as a bonus would free a SB slot. The only volatile slot I'm willing to consider is my 1-of Stifle. Opinions, which one is better when preparing for a GP? Stifle and a slightly more diverse disruption package or Flusterstorm and it's ability to control almost any stack? Or maybe even something else? 3rd Spell Pierce?

Flusterstorm is stronger against storm. That is one of my drivers for the change as even when my record against storm decks is quite good in tournaments, the matchup feels most of the time frustrating. On the other hand, Flusterstorms from the board have been gamebreaking. Stifle can do surprising things no other card in the maindeck can but is such card needed in md - maybe not. Stifle can't protect the kill outside some Jitte-harrasment or similar while Flusterstorm does it better than anything. Neither of the cards shines against eldrazis: at best Flusterstorm can counter a removal spell through Chalice while Stifle can counter Displacer-blinks or Seer-triggers or whatnot _if_ there's no Chalice around.

I also put a lot of emphasis on the aspect of getting one more SB slot, as I can't otherwise reasonably fit in another much needed anti-red card, be it Chill, Absolute Law, Hydroblast or [insert suggestion].

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Not trying to overreact to a boogeyman but I think right now I would rather have a 4th force of will than flusterstorm MD. I only play 1 Flusterstorm in the board, it's just a bit narrow I feel. I have a feeling storm will see a bit less play in the future with what looks like an uptick in chalice decks. Also I've given a lot of thought to stifle and I can see how it helps further the tempo plan but I feel like I would rather have more counters or pseudo counters in vines (I even play a piracy charm, it's pretty relevant in my meta with a lot of X/1 s and the versatility is great).

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Originally Posted by redstripe509

Not trying to overreact to a boogeyman but I think right now I would rather have a 4th force of will than flusterstorm MD. I only play 1 Flusterstorm in the board, it's just a bit narrow I feel. I have a feeling storm will see a bit less play in the future with what looks like an uptick in chalice decks. Also I've given a lot of thought to stifle and I can see how it helps further the tempo plan but I feel like I would rather have more counters or pseudo counters in vines (I even play a piracy charm, it's pretty relevant in my meta with a lot of X/1 s and the versatility is great).

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I have no ambition to address eldrazis outside an additional artifact removal card in SB. Force of Will is too much card disadvantage to make the cut. When going for the kill, Flusterstorm is usually of higher value to me. Chalice is like the only card that I would want to have an extra Fow for but it's not something I'm concerned with in any way.

I already play 4 Vines to deal with the numerous BUG decks. I like Stifle a lot but one copy seems to be waste. You really, really want it in your opening hand. Piracy Charm used to be a staple in my list before the white splash. I would explore it again if I were playing plain UG.

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Originally Posted by Hopo

I have no ambition to address eldrazis outside an additional artifact removal card in SB. Force of Will is too much card disadvantage to make the cut. When going for the kill, Flusterstorm is usually of higher value to me. Chalice is like the only card that I would want to have an extra Fow for but it's not something I'm concerned with in any way.

I already play 4 Vines to deal with the numerous BUG decks. I like Stifle a lot but one copy seems to be waste. You really, really want it in your opening hand. Piracy Charm used to be a staple in my list before the white splash. I would explore it again if I were playing plain UG.

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I'm finding the same with stifle. It's so so good in your opening hand and so meh after that. It's generally a horrible top deck as well, so I'm likely going to cut it for a second spell Pierce or flusterstorm in my list (running 1 Pierce and 1 flusterstorm main atm with a second flusterstorm in the side).

I still like piracy charm even with the white splash. I found all 3 modes can have their uses as well. Just a nice versitle card as a 1 of... I've cut it a few times but keep going back to it lol.

Eldrazi isn't really a bad matchup. Chalice for 1 hurts and thorns is a huge pain as well but in general infects clock is much faster. TKS sucks though but usually can be dazed due to most Eldrazi being greedy playing him off 2 sol lands turn two. Match up is far from bad though, so I wouldn't change much of the deck to accommodate that one decklist personally.

I just saw the question about the lack of access to a savannah and considering the utility lands package.

I prefer this approach it is more straight forward and progresses your game plan better. In order to be most effective with it I would consider running no less than 2 crop rotations main. (They are always useful even if it's finding a pendelhaven or an inkmoth game one). This essentially turns everyone of your utility lands in the sideboard into a three of. you need to be able to read the game and know when to tap out and when to rotate into the land you need. Bojuka bog is awful in most matchups you want it if you can't play it at instant speed. I'm thinking specifically against tin fins or other grave yard decks you want to exile their graveyard in response to the reanimate. Against show and tell you want to rotate into the karakas after they've wasted the show and you swing for lethal. Timing is much more important when using the non white package.

I have not been impressed with piracy charm in my builds, so far teferi's response has been my favorite in that spot, but I'm not convinced another crop rotation isn't a better answer.

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Originally Posted by Hopo

Regarding the disruption slots:
Does anyone have experience or insights in playing two or more Flusterstorms in maindeck? I have the typical 6 free counters + 2 pierce + 1 Flusterstorm + 1 Stifle and would love to have a second Fluster there as it does a lot of work and as a bonus would free a SB slot. The only volatile slot I'm willing to consider is my 1-of Stifle. Opinions, which one is better when preparing for a GP? Stifle and a slightly more diverse disruption package or Flusterstorm and it's ability to control almost any stack? Or maybe even something else? 3rd Spell Pierce?

Flusterstorm is stronger against storm. That is one of my drivers for the change as even when my record against storm decks is quite good in tournaments, the matchup feels most of the time frustrating. On the other hand, Flusterstorms from the board have been gamebreaking. Stifle can do surprising things no other card in the maindeck can but is such card needed in md - maybe not. Stifle can't protect the kill outside some Jitte-harrasment or similar while Flusterstorm does it better than anything. Neither of the cards shines against eldrazis: at best Flusterstorm can counter a removal spell through Chalice while Stifle can counter Displacer-blinks or Seer-triggers or whatnot _if_ there's no Chalice around.

I also put a lot of emphasis on the aspect of getting one more SB slot, as I can't otherwise reasonably fit in another much needed anti-red card, be it Chill, Absolute Law, Hydroblast or [insert suggestion].

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I'm currently running a flusterstorm along with two spell Pierce; the flusterstorm is better in the late game, and if you cast invigorate+berserk etc into a removal spell and then fluster, you get 4 copies. At the same time, vines could do the same job regardless of storm count. But I'm always battling burn, so I like to be able to counter spells that target me as well as my creatures. As far as my last flex spot, it sounds weird but I have been testing intuition and it has been pretty sweet. Usually I get three forces or two invigorate one become immense!

I was wondering if anyone could share their strategies and sideboard plans for RUG delver. It really just seems like such a horrendous matchup. Aside from a quick combo with protection I don't see how to win it, they seem to have an answer for everything. Thanks

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Originally Posted by redstripe509

I was wondering if anyone could share their strategies and sideboard plans for RUG delver. It really just seems like such a horrendous matchup. Aside from a quick combo with protection I don't see how to win it, they seem to have an answer for everything. Thanks

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You have to play tight. There's no way around it.

Infect as a deck is as close to RUG delver as it's gets. Think of it as a mirror match where they have more removal than you. Your pumps most of the time counter their removal. Also, you can win in one turn where they have to stay vigilant whenever you declare an attacker.
You want to take out all Fows and replace them with better value, like Flusterstorm and Pithing Needle (for Wasteland/Lavamancer). Daze is very good to leave in as they are (want to be) tight on mana. That said, you still want your basic forest as soon as possible.

If you play white, Rest in Peace is your trump card which leaves only Delver as a real threat. Swords to plowshares also has merit here. I'm not sure about Absolute Law, but it could be worth a spot. And you still have to watch out for Submerge so try to minimize it's impact or even better, play around it if possible. Vines of the Vastwood is one of your better cards in this matchup. I have recommended playing 4 for sometime already.

You have to decide whether you want to side out some Hierarchs. They are awkward if they have Forked Bolt but exalted is very good in the early game when their Mongoose is only 1/1. On the other hand, in Bant version you want as many white sources as possible because they will attack your mana and the lonely Savannah has kind of a short life expectancy.

Because it's practically impossible to tell what a person really has in the sideboard, I usually like to bring in one blind Krosan Grip as well in order not to lose some random hate piece. RUG delver most likely brings in needle anyway to stop your Nexus. Also Sulfuric Vortex is a consideration from their part.

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Originally Posted by redstripe509

I was wondering if anyone could share their strategies and sideboard plans for RUG delver. It really just seems like such a horrendous matchup. Aside from a quick combo with protection I don't see how to win it, they seem to have an answer for everything. Thanks

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I play rug delver and jund decks very similarly. You'll want to increase your threat density by bringing in V corrupter (also handy with pithing needles flying around their lists), spellskite, hydroblast, flusterstorm, spell pierce, and I like surgical extraction if you are running it. Take out gitaxian probe, force of will on the play /daze on the draw, and probably whatever you have in your flex spots (sylvan library, piracy charm if it's teferi's response keep it). If you need to take out or add more look at your wasteland slot. I leave dryad arbor in as a surprise chump blocker they should be taking stifle out against you.

As hopo said you have to play very tightly, don't forget inkmoth can tap for mana then activate itself to be saved with a vines of vastwood. If you do bring in surgical extraction your prime targets are wasteland and volcanic island if you left wasteland in. nothing makes a rug player madder than cutting off one of their support colors. You have to be smart about when you play the surgical though and understand the implications of what you go after. if you go after wasteland your inkmoth is now your best win con, you better activate it when you can protect it. Don't be afraid to chip away slowly holding pump spells as "counters" to removal. If you go after volc your best win con is now blighted agent. Glistner elf and inky become chump blockers in a pinch. you have to play around submerge now but that is fairly easy with vines, and the counterspells.

If you are going to "get em" with the wasteland surgical volc plan you need to get a volc in their yard, when they crack a fetch to get another one make sure they don't have another fetch in play or you are hosed and need to switch to the wasteland plan. In response to the crack play surgical know that rug will have a counter and be ready to get in a counter war over this play because if you succeed it's a race and they are not likely to pull ahead in that race.

If there is an increase in dark blast/punishing fire/red decks in the meta take a page out of the bolt format and put a spellskite in your board. it can eat a lot of spells and buy you some time. The biggest thing to remember is infect doesn't have to be a turn 2 deck, if you go all in on the combo game 2 you are wide open to lots of blow outs as hate for other decks is incidentally great against infect too. When you are boarding keep your game plan tight and take out the things that aren't going to help you progress your plan or will make their plan worse. RUG prides itself on being a 50/50 deck in most matchups they have weaknesses just wait for your opportunity and pounce. By no means is it an easy matchup but it is winnable just play tight and with a purpose.

Awesome responses. Thanks for pointing all that stuff out, gives me a lot to think about with regards to sideboard and sideboard planning.

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Originally Posted by Witch_king_of_angmar

As far as my last flex spot, it sounds weird but I have been testing intuition and it has been pretty sweet. Usually I get three forces or two invigorate one become immense!

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That is interesting, especially the nice interaction with Become Immense. I will try Intuition, since I am tinkering with Daze-less builds anyway. Impulse and Cunning Wish are similar options.

Intuition tricks seem very slow as I dislike even kicking Vines most of the times. But nothing wrong with trying. Let us know how it pans out. Also, if anyone finds a working way to make Phyrexian Crusader a 4-of, I'm all ears.

Yes it's very slow, and I probably wouldn't consider it alongside Daze. But Vines is awkward in part because of GG, 2U isn't that much more actually, plus it's blue for FoW. In testing I have cast Intuition twice so far. First time it was win more. Second time against Storm on turn three I had Intuition and 2 Become Immense in hand (and only 1 card in graveyard), Tropical, Inkmoth, Noble, and Glistener in play, and him at 2 poison. I was able to Intuition for 3 fetchlands, play fetchland, cast BI and win. Will continue to test.

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Originally Posted by Cartesian

Yes it's very slow, and I probably wouldn't consider it alongside Daze. But Vines is awkward in part because of GG, 2U isn't that much more actually, plus it's blue for FoW. In testing I have cast Intuition twice so far. First time it was win more. Second time against Storm on turn three I had Intuition and 2 Become Immense in hand (and only 1 card in graveyard), Tropical, Inkmoth, Noble, and Glistener in play, and him at 2 poison. I was able to Intuition for 3 fetchlands, play fetchland, cast BI and win. Will continue to test.

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I read you could have gotten 3 x Invigorate as well for the same results. Are you playing more than one Immense solely because of Intuition?

3 x Invigorate?
Actually that was my first thought (intuition?) as well, but it doesn't work. I needed the land to pay one green for BI, having already spent three mana on Intuition.

I usually play 2 BI always, getting two stuck in hand is awkward, but the card is that powerful.

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Originally Posted by Cartesian

3 x Invigorate?
Actually that was my first thought (intuition?) as well, but it doesn't work. I needed the land to pay one green for BI, having already spent three mana on Intuition.

I usually play 2 BI always, getting two stuck in hand is awkward, but the card is that powerful.

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I swear I read you had an Invigorate in hand. My bad.

EDIT: How many Crop Rotations you play? It is THE delve enabler in the deck. I'd like to find a reason (asn space) to play a second one as Inkmoth Nexus solves many problems.

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Originally Posted by Hopo

I swear I read you had an Invigorate in hand. My bad.

EDIT: How many Crop Rotations you play? It is THE delve enabler in the deck. I'd like to find a reason (asn space) to play a second one as Inkmoth Nexus solves many problems.

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I play two crop rotations and 1 BI the difference between BI and invigorate isn't that great, where the crop rotation effect is incredible. I did drop down to two vines as I hate kicking it (just like you) but the protection is worth while. I'm thinking about going back up to three vines and moving library to the side.

i love 2 crop rots! ive always wanted a utility spell vs tons of wasteland.decs and another copy for my utility wasteland too vs annoying lands like maze, chasm..

saw a list with 2 stonewood invocation in the sb, cant remember where...
well, what do u guys think bout it? kindly costly but somehow a sure win! perfect for grindy games and can be a blow out vs decks that tend to wait and plans to ambush us : ), i'll try it this weekend : )

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