[Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

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Originally Posted by ChemicalBurns

Everyone seems to be on lists trimming Dread Return and running no deck-flipper. I like this

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So do I. Let's talk about one in particular: Ashen Rider

I have played this in place of Flayer of the Hatebound in a bundle of matches this week. I thoroughly enjoyed it and did not wish it was Flayer at all. I tried out this route after reading about user laststepdown's experience with it starting here. I must agree with his logic and note that Ashen Rider enhances two poor matchups in particular that Flayer does not, Sneak/Show and Lands.

Here is a list of pros and cons for you to contemplate.

Pros:
--Rids you of game-losing permanents such as Sneak Attack, Omniscience, Emrakul, Griselbrand, Marit Lage tokens, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Glacial Chasm, and other stuff.
--Plays well with Bridge from Below.
--Exiles two permanents with a Therapy or second Dread Return. Sometimes exiles three or more permanents with both in your graveyard.
--Is a nice surprise vs. Exhume.
--Pitches to Ichorid and Contagion, or Sickening Shoal to kill a Griselbrand.
--Makes your opponent concede the game.

Cons:
--A hot Reanimate/Animate Dead target vs. Reanimator.
--Does not win the game the same turn he/she comes into play.
--Removes only one/two/three problematic permanents at a time.

Here is what Flayer of the Hatebound does for you.
Pros:
--Might win the game in the same turn with enough Amalgams or a second Dread Return.
--Sweeps your opponent's board of creatures.
--Has the undying mechanic.

Cons:
--Does not remove any of those stupid permanents I listed above.
--Does not pitch to Ichorid, Contagion, or Shoal.
--Does not play well with Bridge from Below.

One must ask themselves whether they actually do win, or can win, more games with a returned Flayer or an Ashen Rider. Certainly there are not enough recorded matches to tell for sure, but I wager to you that the numbers are close if not heavily in Rider's favor. The lesson from my experience is that once Rider is returned, winning the game is quite elementary. This is what you want out of a maindeck Dread Return target anyway. I believe that this is a compelling case to play Ashen Rider in place of Flayer of the Hatebound. Let's see what others have to show for it.

Edit: I fully back this up with another 5-0 on MTGO. The maindeck's changes from the last one:
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
-1 Contagion
+1 Ashen Rider
+1 Dread Return

If you want to keep winning the game after resolving a Dread Return you should just keep playing a deck flipper, period.

Lsv has posted 3 matches on cfb
Lots of mistakes but it s good to see manaless ahah

Someone should tell the guy GGT is pretty damn big when you DR it...

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Originally Posted by RThomas-

I have played this in place of Flayer of the Hatebound in a bundle of matches this week. I thoroughly enjoyed it and did not wish it was Flayer at all.

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I'm sure its different for the variations of the deck, but I feel if i switch to the rider in my particular build (horde mode) it slows me down at least a turn with the lone exception of spot removal (glacial chasm, elesh norn, for example). Rider is a useful SB card in my opinion against those match ups, similar to a vengeful pharaoh IMO. But for me, its not a great main deck option right now esp regarding flayer's spot. Flayer generally wins me the game that turn it comes out or at the latest during the next turns upkeep. Plus it gets around some things like tabernacle (undying) or moat (direct damage) anyway.

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Originally Posted by RThomas-

So do I. Let's talk about one in particular: Ashen Rider

I have played this in place of Flayer of the Hatebound in a bundle of matches this week. I thoroughly enjoyed it and did not wish it was Flayer at all. I tried out this route after reading about user laststepdown's experience with it starting here. I must agree with his logic and note that Ashen Rider enhances two poor matchups in particular that Flayer does not, Sneak/Show and Lands.

Here is a list of pros and cons for you to contemplate.

Pros:
--Rids you of game-losing permanents such as Sneak Attack, Omniscience, Emrakul, Griselbrand, Marit Lage tokens, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Glacial Chasm, and other stuff.
--Plays well with Bridge from Below.
--Exiles two permanents with a Therapy or second Dread Return. Sometimes exiles three or more permanents with both in your graveyard.
--Is a nice surprise vs. Exhume.
--Pitches to Ichorid and Contagion, or Sickening Shoal to kill a Griselbrand.
--Makes your opponent concede the game.

Cons:
--A hot Reanimate/Animate Dead target vs. Reanimator.
--Does not win the game the same turn he/she comes into play.
--Removes only one/two/three problematic permanents at a time.

Here is what Flayer of the Hatebound does for you.
Pros:
--Might win the game in the same turn with enough Amalgams or a second Dread Return.
--Sweeps your opponent's board of creatures.
--Has the undying mechanic.

Cons:
--Does not remove any of those stupid permanents I listed above.
--Does not pitch to Ichorid, Contagion, or Shoal.
--Does not play well with Bridge from Below.

One must ask themselves whether they actually do win, or can win, more games with a returned Flayer or an Ashen Rider. Certainly there are not enough recorded matches to tell for sure, but I wager to you that the numbers are close if not heavily in Rider's favor. The lesson from my experience is that once Rider is returned, winning the game is quite elementary. This is what you want out of a maindeck Dread Return target anyway. I believe that this is a compelling case to play Ashen Rider in place of Flayer of the Hatebound. Let's see what others have to show for it.

Edit: I fully back this up with another 5-0 on MTGO. The maindeck's changes from the last one:
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
-1 Contagion
+1 Ashen Rider
+1 Dread Return

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Good reasoning, and I'd be happy to trial this in the recent side events I'm going. I love me a Dread Return target that can feed Icky (though I feel we're usually pretty stocked in terms of Icky food, compared to something like LED Dredge).

Flayer has spots where he really shines though, especially against combo where you need to kill them there and then (and a Chancellor is not enough). I do like your point about it vs. S&S though. I think its very close, and honestly I may try Rider just because it gives me an extra SB slot. It's also much more of a consideration now that we're only aiming to DR once per game (since I'm only running 3 DR atm).

Keep up the discussion guys. I've played a little with my recent deck-flipperless list and the smoothness is unparalled compared to any Dredge build I've ever played. The graveyard feels so well-stocked, and there's a lot of disruptive elements with Force/Chancellor/Therapy and the acceleration of Wraith.

@RThomas I'd highly recommend trying Forces in the main if you can get them.

Took my list from like page 36 to a top 8 of a 75 man 1k this weekend with this sideboard.

4 Force of Will
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Noxious Revival
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Serra Avatar

Match ups:
R1 Junk Blade 1-2
R2 Bye
R3 Moon Stompy 2-1
R4 TES 2-0
R5 Burn 2-1
R6 MUD post 2-0
R7 Czech Pile draw
5-1-1 for 6th after swiss
T8 Czech Pile 0-2

Not bad. Congrats!

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Not bad. Congrats!

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Thanks. The deck felt strong all day and I feel that Czech Pile is a favorable matchup for us. I had some poor dredges and my opponent played really well in the top8. I got to chat with another manaless player whom I think ended up x-2. The only thing I would say is that I would like to try and find room somewhere for either shoal or contagion. I only boarded in the full set FOWs against MUD, TES and the blade deck otherwise I boarded in maybe 1 or 2 depending.

On Rider in the MD. I think for now I leave him in the board unless we add a second target for DR. I have been testing him over Flayer in no-flip and flip lists. Flayer wins more games there are corner cases where the damage is relevant and removing a permanent is not enough on its own. Rider is really good and powerful but he isn't better than what we are doing now.

I will keep testing and jamming. Happy dredging.

Hi boys, i don't come in this forum since a long time. I have tryhard Manaless Dredge since few years now and I see some of you have some interogation so let's see my point of vue :

Prized Amalgam is 4 slots is obvious

Force of Will MD is bad
Yes it is. Force have to be play in sideboard. Hide the Force is good, to surprise the opponent with a counter in game 2. Moreover Force in game 1 is useless, the only viable target is shaman, and you can go over it. I play Force in side and always side-in them in game 2.
But you can play Force MD is you want to "free" some slot in your sideboard.

You can play with less than 16 dredgers
I play during 1 years a list with only 12 dredgers, and that really going well, the number of time I dont have enought dredger is really few and I consider this like a deck doing a manadeath. 14 is more stable, if you're meta don't have enought hate you don't need a lot of protection and you can run more than 12.
Think like it's useless to have 16 dredgers if you get RIP by RIP.

Ashen rider is maybe viable
Ashen Rider plan from R-Thomas is really interesting, the card seems to be really powerfull in this meta. But Flayers is fuckingly powerfull, play both of them is maybe a good idea. I will try them.

Disrupting shoal is a risky slot
Siding the shoal + the force really delay you combo plan and if you side 4 shoal this card counter the good card in only 12% of the case. (40% to get a shoal in hand, 40% to get a card to pitch of the good CCM). I prefer have some Vengefull Pharaoh (agaisnt Show and tell, reanimator, D&T).

Whirlpool riders is op
I play him in my blu-list and he really do the same work as the Balustrad spy, I never don't dredge my entire deck with a first DR on the rider.

Lands+Bloodghast plan not worth it
I play a deck with them and you infest too much slot in this to get it worth it, but play with River Kelpi and bloodghast is very fun :p

Now I have some question :
Did you think manaless dredge is better than LED dredge ?
It was before the ban of sensei divining top, but now ?

I see list with no whirlpool rider or spy. Don't you miss an auto-win button ?


Sorry for my english and happy dredging

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Originally Posted by Xenio

Hi boys, i don't come in this forum since a long time. I have tryhard Manaless Dredge since few years now and I see some of you have some interogation so let's see my point of vue :

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Hi there and good work. Here are a couple thoughts to share:

--If you want less dredgers, I want to know your sample size for having/not having a dredger in your starting eight. By this I mean how many games are you pulling your experience with 12 dredgers from? The math is settled on how likely you are to start with at least one dredger in your hand. If you're not having problems with it, then great. However, I fear your tune will change with more games.

--It is hard to say whether one deck is better than the other one right now. We must know about the decks you will play against. Is their lots of Leyline of the Void, Grafdigger's Cage, Rest in Peace when counting types of graveyard hate? Perhaps LED Dredge is better for you now. Is it more Deathrite Shaman, Surgical Extraction? Maybe you will do better with the Manaless deck.

--I don't know if our outlook changed that much with the banning of Sensei's Divining Top. The Miracles deck was the most important deck to play it and while they got a little bit slower, there are not far more or fewer people playing the new version (in my experience).

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Originally Posted by RThomas-

I want to know your sample size for having/not having a dredger in your starting eight. By this I mean how many games are you pulling your experience with 12 dredgers from?

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I play more of 120 rounds with it so at least 250 times, i think that having a shambling shell is not worth, i prefer have slot for Contagion to kill a shaman. I don't say my choice is right, but it's possible and you don't open so often a hand without dredger. 16 is too much but i can understand to play 14 dredger. You don't need this over constancy to have a dredger in hand since getting 2 is often useless. (But it's maybe only me, I tryhard every one of my slot).

For looking into this more deeply :
With 12 dredgers you have 80% to have at least one in hand.
With 14 dredgers you have 86% to have at least one in hand.
With 16 dredgers you have 90% to have at least one in hand.

If you don't have dredger in hand and you Mulligan one time :
With 12 dredgers you have 75% to have at least one in hand.
With 14 dredgers you have 81% to have at least one in hand.
With 16 dredgers you have 96% to have at least one in hand.

The really reason to play shell is too have a dredger in hand, if we regroup this stat, the chance to get no dredgers after one mulligan is :
With 12 dredgers :5%
With 14 dredgers :1,44%
With 16 dredgers :0,4%

I accept to loose 5% of my game cause I don't have dredgers.

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Originally Posted by RThomas-

I don't know if our outlook changed that much with the banning of Sensei's Divining Top. The Miracles deck was the most important deck to play it and while they got a little bit slower, there are not far more or fewer people playing the new version (in my experience).

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Miracle was a free win, so loose this match up decrease the average winrate of manaless.

Using Shambling Shell isn't just a matter of drawing a Dredger, but drawing 2 Dredgers for Phantasmagorian to play around Deathrite Shaman or to be able to recover after a Surgical Extraction, Tormod's Crypt etc. without going into top deck. There really isn't a better card for their slot, unless you are playing the MD Force of Will version you're just reducing consistency for the sake of reducing consistency as even Gitaxian Probe slows the deck down more than speeds it up when you consider on average it will either be countered or one less black creature for Ichorid or Nether Shadow.

Shambling Shell is for grinding through hate the same way basic lands are for building up a manabase vs Wasteland.

And Shell is food for Ichorid, which is also important. I've been running 15 dredgers for ages now, wouldn't go below that.

Hey guys, I had a look at the recent top decks at the moment (meta share). It seems that everyone is running a playset of DRS at the moment BUT most decks are also running no grave hate other that Surgical Extraction in their sideboards right now. And we very well can beat DRS and Surgical. Since I have picked up a beautiful FBB Nether Shadow playset I'm burning for this deck again. God how much I hate whitebordered cards. Well anyway I had a little time on my vacation and built an up2date list (not tested yet!) for the current meta.

Dredger
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

Anti DRS
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Contagion

Idiots
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam

Combo/Other
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
1 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Gitaxian Probe

Sideboard
4 Force of Will
1 Disrupting Shoal
1 Contagion
3 Noxious Revival
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Ashen Rider
2 Unmask

I figured a single Contagion as an additional anti DRS card mainboard might be of value. But it might also just be another Shadow, Shell or Rider. I'm open for suggestions.

Also no FoW mainboard. I feel we rarely need it mainboard but I feel we do need 2 dredgers in hand with Phantasmagorian because of DRS. Hence the 3 Shells.

Further I only have 2 combo creatures (1 Rider, 1 Flayer) because I currently value consistency (Shadow, Shell) over the combo kill (it will happen often enough anyway). Further you can just reanimate the first Chancellor you see and are good to go against most fast combo decks where you would really want/need a fast machine-gun Flayer kill.

I also strongly consider mainboarding Ashen Rider over Flayer because of RThomas's experiences.

Hence the increased amount of Surgical Extractions I have included 3 Noxious Revivals in the sideboard to supplement Street Wraith (saving dem trolls) or safe Ichorids etc. The times I got hit hard by Extractions was not by getting dredgers removed but by the opponent waiting for the perfect shot to get Ichorids/Narcos/whatever. Street Wraith won't do anything about that, Noxious Revival will. I'm not sure though if I should go down to 2 Revivals and add another Faerie Macabre. Any suggestions?

I am happy about any input, I might take Manaless to my next tournament.

Thanks in advance guys!

A single Contagion seems rather lackluster. The odds of you having it at the same time your opponent has a DRS you can't get past and that your opponent can't protect are incredibly slim, so why bother?

What would you use the slot for? The 4th Shell?

Is Contagion even worth boarding against DRS?

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Originally Posted by Snowfire

What would you use the slot for? The 4th Shell?

Is Contagion even worth boarding against DRS?

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Another Nether Shadow. 15 dredgers is fine, there's no need to add nr. 16.

New Dredge player-trying both versions and losing to newbness and sometimes bad dredges.

People seem to think manaless is the lesser version, but I think there are pros/cons to both and I may like manaless better regardless because it's fun.

I noticed the lack of dredgers even in one fnm with 12 only.

I think the Spyless versions are interesting, and may actually be unnecessary.

If spyless however, and assumming FOW in sb, which I have, why is River Kelpie not played as much? It provides control and play of the deck, triggers of casting DR AND CT as well as its own persist, which to me seems better in a deck that ideally has 0 cards in hand and phantasmagorians in yard. I see a play like DR the kelpie, dredge, sac to cabal, 2 more dredges and they discard and get zombos, and basically loop similarly to if you did a spy anyway. Triggers on narcomeobas, nethers, prizeds and ichorids. And assuming an opponent is actually trying to force you to do something you can always just draw the card. Then it pitches to FOW.

everyone here seems to have good discussion on this. I'm interested in the answers.

Call to the netherworld seems awesome to me. Between Phansmagorian and Cabal therapy I feel like it would be super easy to repeat that into a streetwraith for more instant speed draws.

Kelpie needs Bloodghast and the dredge land to function. It's also a lot of work to go through all of the triggers. There's probably a list with it somewhere in this threat.

Can you post your 75?

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Kelpie needs Bloodghast and the dredge land to function. It's also a lot of work to go through all of the triggers. There's probably a list with it somewhere in this threat.

Can you post your 75?

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Why is that? I figured with flashback + all the yard creature triggers it would work.

I don't have a 75 with Kelpie. Previous was:

12 dredgers
4 chancellor
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Nether SHadow
4 Ichorid
3 prized amalgam
4 narcos
4 dread returns
4 cabal therapy
4 street wraith
4 probes
4 bridges
1 flayer
4 phantasmos
1 flamekin

4 fow
4 faerie macs
3 contagion
1 prized
1 whirpool rider
1 iona
1 elesh? forget exactly

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Originally Posted by compacta_d

Why is that? I figured with flashback + all the yard creature triggers it would work.

I don't have a 75 with Kelpie. Previous was:

12 dredgers
4 chancellor
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Nether SHadow
4 Ichorid
3 prized amalgam
4 narcos
4 dread returns
4 cabal therapy
4 street wraith
4 probes
4 bridges
1 flayer
4 phantasmos
1 flamekin

4 fow
4 faerie macs
3 contagion
1 prized
1 whirpool rider
1 iona
1 elesh? forget exactly

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You need them so you can go for the combo kill that same turn. If you just mean to DR a creature and not combo them to death that turn, just DR Flayer of the Hatebound. It's the quickest route to victory. No need to speed up your dredges.

As for your list - between 14 and 16 dredgers would be the golden standard. You've experienced why. If you want to run FoWs (anywhere) and no Disrupting Shoals, just choose Whirlpool Drake as your standard DR target. Its CMC doesn't matter due to the lack of Shoal, and since it gives you twice the dredges Rider would it is by definition better. There's also the corner case where it could block a Merit Lage token, but that's very, very rare and can also be done by Stinkweed Imp. Just cut the Spies, go w/ Drake & free up some extra slots in your SB.

As for Manaless vs. LED Dredge - those unfamiliar to Manaless do seem to have that sentiment. The thing is that while Manaless is simply dead vs. a few very specific hate cards, it cares much less about less powerful (but more frequently seen) hate. LED Dredge can be controlled relatively easily w/ a DRS, or stuff like Surgical Extraction/Faerie Macabre. Just get rid of their Ichorids and the deck falls flat on its ass. Vs. Manaless, you can take away any given part and the deck'll just continue to function. Strip away Ichorids? Sure, we've got 12 recurring creatures left. Strip away a bunch of dredgers? Sure, we've got a bunch more. Strip away DR/CT or DR targets? Drop tax stuff so we can't execute the combo kill? We don't care, we'll just go for Horde Mode. Kill our Bridges? Fine, we've got plenty of recurring creatures to function without. Vs. a lot of decks, it's have Cage/RiP or bust.

I did feel the lack of dredgers. the inconsistency is what bugged me.

I'm not saying dropping flayer is the right move, that is the argument being made up a bit in the thread. I'm saying if you do drop it AND Balustrades, why not Kelpie.

I probably will pick up a few drakes to test numbers. They are better than Rider.

My reasoning for Kelpie > Drake is that Drake only works with cards in hand and optimally we want to NOT have cards in hand due to phantasmagorian and not wanting dredgers in hand. To me this makes something that works from yard strategies the better engine card.

I agree about the differences between dredge decks, but I do think LED dredge has more control over the game plan and tends to go faster. Having mana also gives access to SB cards to anti-hate the yard hate. I'm not saying it's the better deck. I don't have enough experience with either really. These are my ideas for it. Going to pick up call to the netherworlds as well. that seems fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by compacta_d

I did feel the lack of dredgers. the inconsistency is what bugged me.

I'm not saying dropping flayer is the right move, that is the argument being made up a bit in the thread. I'm saying if you do drop it AND Balustrades, why not Kelpie.

I probably will pick up a few drakes to test numbers. They are better than Rider.

My reasoning for Kelpie > Drake is that Drake only works with cards in hand and optimally we want to NOT have cards in hand due to phantasmagorian and not wanting dredgers in hand. To me this makes something that works from yard strategies the better engine card.

I agree about the differences between dredge decks, but I do think LED dredge has more control over the game plan and tends to go faster. Having mana also gives access to SB cards to anti-hate the yard hate. I'm not saying it's the better deck. I don't have enough experience with either really. These are my ideas for it. Going to pick up call to the netherworlds as well. that seems fun.

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Kelpie without Flayer is completely unnecessary. When removing the DR package, just cut the Dread Returns themselves as well while you're at it for extra slots. That being said, I'd never, ever cut Flayer. It's too damn strong.

As for Kelpie vs. Drake - 2 cards in hand equals 4 dredges. It gets really nuts, really quick.

Other options for 'Blue Creature that draws multiple cards on ETB' are Sphinx of Lost Truths (or maybe even Prime Speaker Zegana).

The common argument for LED vs Manaless is the one that Echelon outlines where even though Manaless can get totally hosed by e.g. RIP, Leyline, it is better at playing through more common hate such as DRS and Surgical. My 2c on the LED vs Manaless is that both decks lose to graveyard hate but the LED version also loses to counterspells. Saying that LED is better against hate because you can play spells to answer it is not a convincing argument for me because it's so hard to get that play to line up correctly.

Where the LED version is clearly better is against other combo decks because it's simply much faster.

Keplie can draw that many and more without any cards in hand, which is the gameplan. That's my main point.

Dread kelpie-draw a card, sac keplie to cabal therapy, that's two more cards. one off cast one off persist trigger.

If you sac kelpie to another dread thats 3 cards, cast, kelpie persist, and whatever comes back.

Keplie is ALWAYS live, where whirlpools are only live with cards in hand, which is where you DON'T want to be.

Regardless I'll try both.

My experience with both dredge decks is that you often don't have the answer for the hate regardless. I agree that manaless is better v targeted hate rather than broad hate. RIP tends to be RIP regardless for my games.

that sphinx is awesome. Will be buying those. I was considering the new hour of devastation blue guy, but sphinx does that better. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by compacta_d

Dread kelpie-draw a card, sac keplie to cabal therapy, that's two more cards. one off cast one off persist trigger.

If you sac kelpie to another dread thats 3 cards, cast, kelpie persist, and whatever comes back.

Keplie is ALWAYS live, where whirlpools are only live with cards in hand, which is where you DON'T want to be.

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There's an error in order there though - you want to cast CT before casting DR, not after. I mean, Daze, FoW & Spell Pierce are still cards, right? And strictly speaking, Kelpie only is live when you can cast spells from your graveyard (so a lone Kelpie on the board doesn't necessarily do much here) or when there are other creatures recurring from your GY.

As for the cards in hand thing - I don't mind having a couple of dredgers in hand (which happens naturally) or, situationally, just discarding 3 cards to Phantasmagorian instead of 6 b/c I know I'm about to combo out.

The reason to play kelpie would, from what I can tell in the list you gave, act as an additional spy/draw engine to get to your combo. But you aren't even running 4 spys in your list, so why wouldn't you just add a 4th spy before finding room for a kelpie? Am I missing something?

the conversation started with someone saying that flayer and spies aren't necessary for the deck. that the deck runs smoothly enough to not need it.

My point was to add to the engine with kelpies because you can control the draws and still dredge out.

Yes you want to DR after CT, but after you can do both and dredge at the same time.

Nevermind everyone I'll goldfish it, and when i get to playing it in an fnm i'll report back. It'll be a while though as I'm playing something else right now.

My bad. I thought the kelpie was a fresh topic vs continuation of the existing one and you were working it into your above list.

I had tried whirlpool rider/drake in the main and I didn't care for it too much. I tended to either whiff on it and waste a DR or it wasn't necessary at the time and I would have rather had a different card (not all but most). I haven't tried a kelpie and that may be better since it's more reusable, but I don't know.

Fwiw I run horde mode with no spies, 2 flayer, and 15 dredgers (3 of which are dakmore salvage to combat thalia and bring in bloodghasts. I don't run riders, contagions, or pharaohs main at the moment). Maybe it works better in another build?

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Originally Posted by ronco

My bad. I thought the kelpie was a fresh topic vs continuation of the existing one and you were working it into your above list.

I had tried whirlpool rider/drake in the main and I didn't care for it too much. I tended to either whiff on it and waste a DR or it wasn't necessary at the time and I would have rather had a different card (not all but most). I haven't tried a kelpie and that may be better since it's more reusable, but I don't know.

Fwiw I run horde mode with no spies, 2 flayer, and 15 dredgers (3 of which are dakmore salvage to combat thalia and bring in bloodghasts. I don't run riders, contagions, or pharaohs main at the moment). Maybe it works better in another build?

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that actually sounds fun, but is not manaless.

got a list though?

I love that the name Horde Mode stuck around :laugh:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by compacta_d

that actually sounds fun, but is not manaless.

got a list though?

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You are correct, technically not manaless, but i say that since I just use it to pay "taxes", it still counts. That's how i sleep at night :)

//dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Dakmor Salvage

//Draws
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street wraith

//Recurring
4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Nether shadow
4 Bloodghast

//Other critters
4 Narcomoeba
4 Phantasmagorian
2 Flayer of the Hatebound

//The rest
4 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below

Concerning your list - I'd probably swap a DR for a 4th copy of Cabal Therapy. Therapy is more important than DR, especially now you only aim to resolve 1/2 DR rather than 2/3.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I love that the name Horde Mode stuck around :laugh:

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I always tell my opponents to fear the hoard.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Concerning your list - I'd probably swap a DR for a 4th copy of Cabal Therapy. Therapy is more important than DR, especially now you only aim to resolve 1/2 DR rather than 2/3.

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I agree with this.

@ronco your list looks to be set up to abuse Kelpie. I know there is an older list somewhere from when it was tried before. If you want to leave your list as is I would test +2 kelpie and go down 1 DR and 1 Nether Shadow.

I have also recently been playing with 2 Flayers again and loving it. I don't think that playing Ashen Rider over Flayer is correct.

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Originally Posted by WarpWorld

@ronco your list looks to be set up to abuse Kelpie. I know there is an older list somewhere from when it was tried before. If you want to leave your list as is I would test +2 kelpie and go down 1 DR and 1 Nether Shadow.

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I can certainly give it a shot and see how it feels. I wasn't a huge fan of the drakes/riders when I tested them, but maybe kelpie works better. I envision I could DR it, triggers itself, dredge something, flip a narco, trigger again. cast cabal therapy, trigger twice thanks to persist, DR a flayer perhaps, triggers twice again.... amalgrams come in EOT, trigger some more...


I like 2 flayers too. I ran into issues of not having it available when I needed it and the second one really helped. I have the riders I can bring in if needed but so far hasn't really been an issue.

The way casting the cabal out of yard works you won't actually get the kelpie cast trigger, only the persist trigger.

Still works saccing a zombie or anything else etc.

Good catch, thanks.

Maybe this is a dumb question, but why would Kelpie be run over a Griselbrand?

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Originally Posted by ronco

Good catch, thanks.

Maybe this is a dumb question, but why would Kelpie be run over a Griselbrand?

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Griselbrand is good too. A friend tells me he is a MUST for dredge. I like to keep my options open.

Blue for FOW though.

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Originally Posted by compacta_d

Griselbrand is good too. A friend tells me he is a MUST for dredge. I like to keep my options open.

Blue for FOW though.

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Griselbrand is really really good. A 7/7 flying Lifelink body plus paying 7 life to dredge your whole deck or at least most of it. I don't think he's a MUST but he was the target of choice before spy.