I think the 2 damage is more effective just because you can get a few spells in there and win randomly sometimes with past in flames by just chaining your rituals again. Also, LED = Lion's Eye Diamond.
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I think the 2 damage is more effective just because you can get a few spells in there and win randomly sometimes with past in flames by just chaining your rituals again. Also, LED = Lion's Eye Diamond.
last list:
11 mountain
2 ancient tomb
1 city of traitors
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Burning Wish
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Act on Impulse
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Helm of Awakening
2 Shreds of Sanity
2 Guttersnipe
1 Gamble
3 Past in Flames
going to test the following. (i actually had a similar list back on page 4/5/6 (can't recall) in the thread)
to be tested list:
3 mountain
2 volcanic island
2 bloodstained mire
2 scalding tarn
2 wooded foothills
2 ancient tomb
1 city of traitors
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Burning Wish
2 Ruby Medallion
4 Act on Impulse
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Helm of Awakening
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Desperate Ritual
1 Shreds of Sanity
1 Gamble
3 Past in Flames
the main difference here is that when i tested gifts ungiven originally i was still running hazoret's and simian spirit guide over probe and a full set of act on impulse. it's only a 2-off in this version, but it functions more like the additional tutor that this deck needs. the mana base is still a little rough, and will still keep it at 14 lands with the help of the playset of probes.
this will also allow for a more transformational man-plan with 4 guttersnipe as opponents are extremely inclined to bring in graveyard hate against this list.
the other main addition here since 5 months ago was the addition of a shreds of sanity, which i really like, and it adds a lot of benefits with gifts ungiven, giving you a perfect tutor setup if you have enough mana.
also need to note the 4 helm over 4 ruby here, as multiple helms are helpful for gifts (still undecided if this is a mistake...it's obviously much worse vs a deck like eldrazi or death and taxes.
-Rob
Do you mind me asking what's in your SB?
i've been playing the same sb for a while, although with 2 volcanic islands in the main you could play some stock blue cards that decks like ANT run.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDiabetes
I recently picked up this deck, but have been playing dark rituals instead of seething song (and running 7 fetches, 2 badlands and 2 mountains), because I had all cards except the songs. Now that Ive acquired the songs and tried the classic build, I actually miss the rituals. Songs are great with a medallion, but ritual was better when a medallion was lacking. So songs felt a bit like winmore. Has anyone tried dark rituals in a blacksplash?
If you're going to play with dark ritual and rite of flame then prob just run TES.
Why is song a win more but ritual is not when they provide the same net mana? (+2)
I agree with you here. Seething Song has one big upside that Dark Ritual does not: it gets you to a critical 5 mana, which allows for Past in Flames + R floating even without a Medallion/Helm. Once Medallion/Helm are on the table it becomes a +3 ritual, which beats Dark Ritual all day long. It's deceptive, but Medallions actually net much more than 2 mana in a game. If you track how much mana it 'gives' over a turn, it has a better return than Lion's Eye Diamond, which is +3 for zero.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
I wouldn't say, however, that a black splash necessitates just going for TES. It really depends on how deep you go. If there aren't any LED's in the equation, maybe it's a situation where Dark Ritual is being used as a substitute for Desperate Ritual/SSG/Helm (which typically take up around 4 slots, so it's an even swap.) That opens up opportunities for other tutors (Dark Petition) and discard. I'm not saying this is the right way to go, but it's ONE way to go. I could see Dark Petition into Tendrils (maindeck) being a way to attack from the same angle as traditional storm without going too deep. With that said, I know that TES has much better color-fixing for allowing for red and black rituals, which this deck attempts to make up for with Manamorphose. I know that without LED's I've debated going for a black splash.
It was an impression I had when I switched from rituals to songs, as the rituals seemed better pre-medallion (more easy to make stormcount with Past in Flames without a medallion, and another way to cast a T1 medallion). Where Songs were better post-medallion (providing +3).Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
EDIT: the comparison with TES helped me clear my mind. TES resembles a non-medallion gamestate and Dark Ritual is better here than Seething Song (if they would be aquals in providing the same net mana, Seething Song would at the very least be played instead of Rite of Flame). That's why I called Seething Song a bit winmore, games with a medallion in play are usually looking good already, where the games without one are where we struggle.
As for why not entirely switching to TES, the beauty of this deck lies in the medallions, PIF and Act on Impulse enabling a more grindy game as well. Thats what defines the deck more than a splashcolor or a specific accelerant.
Splashing does make you vulnerable to wasteland. Then again, aren't we already vulnerable to wasteland in Ancient Tomb?
I don't think games where there isn't a medallion are a struggle. They are harder to achieve that endless stream of storm, but getting to storm 10 and BW > Tendrils is still very achievable. Yes Medallion can fuel some broken turns, but getting 12-14 goblins t1-2 can also win a ton of games.
Not really, or at least not in the same way. Tomb is there (mainly) to speed out a medallion/helm. It's not getting us to a second color or anything, and once the rock is in play it is almost not needed (since the colorless piece of the mana goes away for a lot of spells). Almost. I don't know how others play, but for me I open with a mountain if i'm not dropping a rock, that way I can drop the tomb t2 and then have 3 mana available, rather than let it sit exposed. If someone wants to waste it then, fine, but i already got my 3 mana into a song or whatever i need it for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingo
So, yes, losing a tomb hurts (moreso if the rock isn't in play yet), but it isn't like we just got crippled by losing the fetch and the dual or whatever.
Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors/Crystal Vein are all more akin to rituals than they are lands, at least in my opinion. I agree with you here. It forces us to making correct sequencing and mulligan evaluations. Regardless of what else is in our hand, we need an initial red source to do anything, so keeping a Sol land hand without mountains/Petal/SSG is very risky, and even riskier without an actual Mountain. Sequencing Mountain before Sol land in the absence of a Medallion/Helm is one of the dynamics of this deck that can almost be said to be a rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronco
I'm debating on taking this to a 5k in March but I want to evaluate potential matchups. What do you guys who have a bit more experience with this deck believe to be the good/bad/even matchups? Especially against the tier 1 decks?
For reference, I have access to this deck, BUG delver/control, czech pile, U/R delver, Lands, Turbo Depths, Eldrazi Stompy, Burn, reanimator and potentially bomberman.
Depending on the build Reanimator can be a tough match up due to discard (if they are quick) and if they are playing chancellor or not. If they don't have early discard its pretty much a race in my experience. This is based only on the build that I have/play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manroe
If you are really worried about it I can play vs a dredge deck that I have and let you know my thoughts on the matchup. Not exactly T1 but it may be back on the rise.
Yeah, sure! I've had very little legacy time lately since I started taking Cisco Certification classes on legacy night (stupid!). Any input is appreciated. In the limited time I have had, I have noticed that the deck actually seems pretty great against blue decks. I've found that baiting counterspells is generally pretty easy with burning wish, then just flashing it back later gets the job done fine. I really like guttersnipe alongside lightning bolt and I'm not sold on Gitaxian Probe, but that's all I got.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronco
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So lately I have been working so much I just took a break from live Magic and have only been playing online and only playing this deck. Here is where I am at as of right now really just working on the SB as I like the main deck a lot. I liked the black splash still for discard and as of right now 1 massacre but game 1 I just want to be able to do my best Belcher/TES impression and with Act/PIF you have solid ways to grind through countermagic already.
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Burning Wish
4 Act on Impulse
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Desperate Ritual
4 Ruby Medallion
1 Helm of Awakening
3 Past in Flames
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
1 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Defense Grid
2 Rending Volley
1 By Force
1 Massacre
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
went 2-2 at local TNM legacy.
I'll post list after. I finally got to sit down and hash out a bunch of goldfishes to settle upon a list.
Mizzix's Mastery is insane and I think we were wrong about it. Looks bad on paper. Plays amazing. Burning wish, crack LED, overload is my favorite play right now. Cast entire graveyard.
RD1 Lost to Tin Fins. Not sure this deck will ever have game against Tin Fins. Turn 0 Emrakul+Collective Brutality put me to 3. He saw my hand with probe and he slammed it. Here I could have gone, fetch land petal ruby, but I went Tomb ruby, thinking I'd draw a mountain. Had petal and faithless in hand. 3 petals faithless lootings drew me into the other 3 fetchlands straight. FINALLY bit me in the ass, but i could have played it differently. AT that point, I could have seething songed up and flashed multiple lootings for a hail mary. Should have because I was dead anyway. Misplays from not playing the deck for a while and changing too many things.
rd2 beat merfolk. Got to overload Mizzix's Mastery 2 games in a row. Feels good. No insane plays.
rd3 v friend on miracles. I actually fizzled a game. Game 2 I went for Past In Flames and should have went for Reforge instead. Misplayed. he was able to stick a canonist. Canonist hurts pretty bad. I'm also a storm noob so I made bad choices.
rd 4 beat Turbo Depths. Hand disruption takes Burning wish. I slam a ruby. He gets a 20/20. I win next turn because it doesn't have haste. He gets game 2 turboey. Game 3 I keep worst hand, but want to play it out. Tomb-petal-petal-petal-led-act on impulse (hold mizzix). Act whiffs. He gets the Lage ready. I natural miracle a reforge the soul and go off from there. No black mana source. Burning wish for tendrils, faithless looting, overload mizzix.
4 Faithless looting
4 probe
4 manamorphose
4 song
4 rite
4 wish
4 act on impulse
4 petal
4 led
3 ruby
2 helm
2 reforge
2 mizzix
1 past in flames
1 grape shot
4 tomb
4 red fetch
5 mountain
SB:
1 past in flames
1 tendrils
1 reforge
1 mizzix
2 def grids
2 scab clans
1 flame slash
1 by force
1 abrade
1 cave in
2 blood moons
1 magus of the moon
I am VERY set on this maindeck list. It's preformed fantastically for me, despite my own mistakes. I am gonna try to squeeze a chrome mox or 2 somewhere in there. Possibly one less land. Double Helms allow defense grids for freebie post sb when you are wheeling your opponent into their Mindbreak traps and flusterstorms. Also just pay for the flusterstorms. It's fun tilting control players when you're like "ok I'll just pay for 11 of the copies".
Ruby's reduce both flashback and overload, so it's good times to faithless looting 4 times in one turn too. Mizzix's Mastery works well with it.
edit- sb needs work though admittedly.
Its early in my testing, but I'm going to say this deck is a solid turn faster than Normal/LED dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manroe
That being said, I just had the most incredible game and i wish it happened in a real game and so someone else could see it lol. I'll try to describe here.
The scene: 2 turns in.
Dredge doing its thing, albeit "slow." Too many Ichorids and not enough dredgers in the yard to go full off or black creatures to exile, but still manages to rip cards from hand and deal some damage. Gets me (storm) down to ~8 life (thanks probes) with lethal coming next turn in the form of 12 zombie tokens plus 2 ichorids coming back. Do or die, so I start wheeling, with my only cantrips being Probe and manamorphone. Start with gas, then PIF, then more gas (and cantrips) and manage to AOI into a ETW for 32 gobbos, but in the process I am down to 2 life with nothing left to flash back other than mono red gas and a hand of 3 tombs + probe (that I can't cast) and 2 ruby in play. I live another turn. Dredge goes, brings back ichorids and after doing math that he can survive the attack next turn, swings with everything that I must block. I block and go down to 18 goblins, with dredge player at 17 life (and will have 4 untapped 2/2 tokens after combat from the bridge). Next turn coming again with more, so i need to finish off this turn. I draw... lotus petal. Great. Here goes nothing.
Hand: 3 tomb, 1 probe. At 2 life. 2 mountains and 2 Rubys in play.
Crack petal, Play probe. Draw AOI.
Play AOI, have 1 R left from a mountain. See HUF, Shreds, AOI.
Cast second AOI. Get Land, Ritual, something else.
Play land, cast ritual (RRR), Play shred (RR) grab a seething song and AOI back.
Play song (RRRRRR), play aoi, draw into a wish and then grab war strike from the board for 18 damage. Holy shit. All that off a lotus petal into probe.
Anyway, just wanted to share that with everyone. The deck is so fun to play and hard to stop once it starts rolling. And sometimes even when it does stop haha.
So, after 7 rounds with dredge, Storm is up 5-2, with total game record 11-8. Everything was 2-1 except one 0-2 and one 2-0 fwiw. Playing first is stronger (in this matchup) so far.
That's nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronco
Also I could be nuts but what do you guys think about running more helms? I feel like against blue a helm will be easier to resolve than a ruby.
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They can stack triggers how they like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watcher487
I have had similar experiences where the game isn't completely over until you are literally at 0. The grind factor of Ruby Storm is definitely a selling point, something we've mentioned a bunch of times in relation to whether discard/disruption is necessary. Now let me plug Overmaster again for the exact reason of your sequence above: it would have done essentially the same thing in your scenario above. While others have been skeptical of Gitaxian Probe, I would play 7-8 copies if I could (hence Overmaster.) Overmaster is likely the best red one mana cantrip, that sometimes has an additional value. I play 11 cards that just straight up cycle (4 probe, 4 Manamorphose, 3 Overmaster) paired with 4 AoI and BW > Reforge the Soul. That's 19 ways to see more cards, which I think really helps offset the lack of filtering cantrips like Brainstorm, Ponder, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronco
I also noticed that LED was *not* part of that equation. I'm not saying LED isn't the nuts (it is) I'm just saying that even if someone doesn't have LED's they can still sleave up this deck and have a reasonable chance of winning. No LED's isn't a good excuse to leave the deck alone, it just gives you motivation to get them even more. I've been testing the deck again lately and I've actually gotten a bunch more t2 wins, and learned a ton about how to sequence. This deck really rewards repetitions and practice, in any version.
I don't run the LED build because I didn't get them until this week, and they went into a different deck haha. I'm not opposed to proxying them and just swapping out when needed, its just a time factor for me right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
That said, I do like overmaster. I don't have any in there currently, but may put a couple back in. I liked it when I first used it then kind of made a bunch of changes at once so it was tough to feel the effect without it. Probably what I will replace my HUFs with. You and others in here definitely play this deck way more than I do.
Funny you should mention HUF...I was thinking of going back up to 2 copies the other day. I play 3x maindeck Warrens, but that might be 1 too many. I want another big payoff card, and Reforge has proven to be too risky (still one in the board.) HUF seems to be the right card, or maybe just jam the 4th Overmaster.
I have a Legacy tournament coming up in February, and this is one of the decks I'm considering.
Try Mizzix's Mastery. It's super good, tutorable and fun to overload.
I may add mizzix to the SB. I have a HUF there that I never wish for really, so that would probably be an easy replacement. I do have a Reforge in the SB as well, but that sometimes gets used, depending on the matchup.
Mr. Safety, I'll post my list tonight. Its pretty close to the standard build but just in case there are any differences.
I have zero room in my sideboard for another wish target, so tutorable isn't a selling point. I'm much more on the turbo-warrens side of the argument, mostly because I don't feel the need for more PiF effects, I want something that *doesn't* require the graveyard.Quote:
Originally Posted by compacta_d
@ronco: Thanks! I will definitely compare notes.
HUF should only be used in versions that have both LED at 4 and a higher than 1 count on Empty in the main. Since I run the max Empty main I love HUF as a primary wish target. Many times I have had to YOLO and it gives you the best chance to hit when you can essentially cascade into a Empty+1-2 freebies or PIF+1-2.
I would run Reforge in a non-LED build and 0-1 Empty and I would never run Mizzix.
I don't think in the last 100+ games has HUF or PiF not been good enough as a wish target unless I am getting TOA/ETW/GS to just win or try and win the following turn.
How's Guttersnipe working out for everyone? I'm excited now that his new art is available from iconic masters, I feel his flavor text represents this deck entirely too well.
Flavor aside, are there any different play patterns that come up when he's in the deck? Do you force him down first and combo or just try to work him into a ritual cantrip chain?
What are more common lines of play that show up and decisions to be made? I rarely get to play against anyone these days so I'd like to see if I'm just trying to go off too early or not soon enough.
Do we often wind up on turns where we just have to pass or is that a bad keep?
Is it ever a good play to use act on impulse before a Ruby helm comes down?
What do you do differently in a game lacking a helm/Ruby?
And lastly, when is it a good plan to hold your cantrip and spells vs just playing them and hoping something shows up?
My answers to the above:Quote:
Originally Posted by Knighthawk
1) I'll defer to others on this, but in my limited experience it happens sometimes. I won't say its often though. Early its not bad, like sometimes I just have no 1 mana gas, so its mountain, then pass, then mountain and try to go off t2. Or sometimes I'll drop a t2 rock then go for it on 3. Just depends.
2) I do it all the time. I've had this deck go off without ruby or helm to get it going. I'll eventually AOI or HUF into one (or 2 or 3) but it isn't necessary, It just really helps.
3) see above. Generally I don't go for the full combo win (tendrils or ETW + War strike) but you can usually get a good horde of goblins out early, like 12 or something. That is often enough to ride to victory or at least put the opponent on a clock and force them to answer those instead of going about their own game plan. Or, you can always do it on two turns depending on the mana. Get a grapeshot for 10 or so the next turn PiF and recast the gas and hit for 11. I don't run grapeshot main but some do.
4) I don't know if this is the correct move or not, but if you are talking something like a git probe, I generally hold those until its storm turn. I'f i'm just playing tomb then rock and passing the turn, I won't try to probe into a lotus petal or something. I'll take my chances and wait for a full untap.
The list I am currently running.
11 Mountain
4 ancient tomb
2 helm of awakening
4 ruby medallion
4 seething song
4 desperate ritual
4 rite of flame
4 lotus petal
4 manamorphose
4 gitaxian probe
4 burning wish
4 act on impulse
3 past in flames
2 Hazoret's undying fury
2 shreds of sanity
1 empty the warrens
Sideboard:
1 Goblin war strike
1 Hazoret's Undying fury
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Reforge the soul
1 By force
3 guttersnipe
3 defense grid
1 pyroclasm
1 past in flames
Wheel/draw/cantrips:
16 (counting shreds, not counting wishes)
Mana generators:
20, counting lotus petals
I do think mizzix is better with led.
May be a stretch without it.
Between reforge, act, wish, past, and mizzix the amount of led pinpoints in the deck are absolutely insane.
Been considering going to desperate rit instead of seething song. Song is more payout with more Ruby's but I find I get stuck sometimes and prefer to reduce that. Plus the arcane actually outdoes song when spliced.
This may be dumb but with HUF and empty or any storm spell, in what order must you cast things to get the most storm triggers?
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They go on the stack in the reverse order you want them to resolve. So with HUF, everything gets cast "at the same time" after HUF resolves. So you stack it with, say:Quote:
Originally Posted by Manroe
ETW first, then gas, gas, rock (or whatever). then upon resolution, it goes Rock, Gas, Gas, ETW.
I'm 99.9% sure that is the correct operation.
It doesn't matter. Huf casts them all so by the time the storm trigger resolves all the spells have been cast and placed on the stack. This also means no matter how you stack it the storm trigger will resolve first and your copies will resolve before anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manroe
You are right about everything you said, but it's not an answer to the question ;). As you said huf casts them all at once and you get to stack them. So huf begins resolving, you cast the spells, putting them onto the stack in any order. The storm trigger triggers. Huf finishes resolving and you put the storm trigger on the stack, ontop of everything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronco
You are right. I misunderstood the question (and HUF, really, for that matter). In case anyone is curious, form the Oracle:Quote:
Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit
-If any abilities trigger as you cast any of those cards, they won’t be put on the stack until after you’re done casting them. They’ll resolve before any of those spells.
-If you cast any of those cards, you do so as part of the resolution of Hazoret’s Undying Fury. You can’t wait to cast them later in the turn.
Update: I tried 2nd HUF in place of 1x Empty, didn't like it. The Empty > BW > War Strike plan is really strong. Quite a few t2 kills as of late, which is really nice. One of them through t1 Thoughtseize, t2 Hymn to tourach (on the draw.)
This is one of 2 decks I'm deciding on for a Legacy event in February, so putting in a bunch of reps with both.
I've been out of the loop for about a year and change, this deck is totally new to me.
Am I mistaken that this is potentially a better Belcher deck? The red acceleration, wish targets, etc. seem a more stable option, but as derp. Already have Belcher built, putting this together doesn't seem too far different.
Are folks generally pro LED if available. Some decklists don'the include.
This deck is not Belcher... In my opinion, this is no doubt way better. Does it win T1? Rarely. T2? Occasionally. T3...T3+? yes. This deck is significantly better than a basic belcher deck "win on T1 or concede" due to its ability to win through all forms of disruption. Everyone else who has put in reps will agree - This deck grinds. You have the capability of winning on turn 8 just as much as on turn 3. The redundancy and resilience it provides makes this a deck that I think is better than you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by ahg113
I am running 2 LEDs - which, yes, is middle of the road... To reference the originators of the deck, some will push the full 4 LED and go for the immediate tendrils win, others aim for the Empty the Warrens win. Maybe I am playing both sides of the fence, but I think its worth it for the multiple win conditions. I feel that the Empty plan has won me just as many games as Tendrils - therefore I like 2 Empty main deck and the one Tendrils in the Wish board.
With regard to the sideboard - the following list subject to change. I've also experimented with Telemin Performance, Fiery Confluence, Pyroblast, and Anger of the Gods.
2 Guttersnipe
4 Manamorphose
4 Rite of Flame
7 Mountain
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Burning Wish
2 Empty the Warrens
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Past in Flames
4 Act on Impulse
1 Gamble
1 Shreds of Sanity
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Helm of Awakening
4 Seething Song
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 Scab-Clan Berserker
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Goblin War Strike
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Cave-In
I think the deck is pretty close to a standard build now (about 5-7 cards maindeck difference if you exclude choice of lands)
I actually don't like maindeck empty, but that's just a preference of mine. I'm finally sold on some. Number of guttersnipe, he's a great threat and if unchecked, you will the game shortly after.
I experimented with gifts ungiven again, but it wasn't as good as hoped for.
The only thing left for this deck is waiting for more cards to come out. Since it's mono red, they might not show up as often, but any analogue of act on impulse or manamorphose would be huge.
This deck will only get better in time, I don't think the same can be said for Belcher, ANT or TES.
Be mindful of the rise of miracles again, there may be a preference for running red blasts/pyroblasts if Counterbalance sees a lot more play again.
I'll finally have a chance to play a local again this week (after months), so I'll update after that.
Hope all is well with the rest.
I'm on 3 guttersnipe, 1 shreds, 1 helm, 0 empty, 1 gamble.
Rest is pretty stock for my builds.