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No, i play it now serieus since a week, that guy was matheus, called matelml here, he is also on the source so i think he would respond to you.
He also gives me the tips as keep playing Brainstorm over Ponder, and his/your arguments are good, its because i play the deck not long enough.
I should give him a sign to respond here.
Mvg
I got 2nd at the Dutch champs only losing the finals against a UBWG Fish deck with Fow, Daze, Spell snare, Stifle, EExplosives, Counterbalance, Confidant, Goyf, Etc. I went 7-1-2 (the draws are ID's) and the metagame was very positive for me. Almost no Thresh, a lot of Loam, discardbased aggro-control, and other non-blue decks. I heard there were about 120 players.
I'll post my list and if you don't agree with the card-choices I'll explain and give my arguments. Every card-choice has been considered over and over and for my meta I believe this maindeck is almost perfect, even the Plunges and 11 land. Only the Rough//Tumble in the Sb I wasn't sure about but I couldn't come up with anything better.
4 Orim's chant
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
2 Plunge into Darkness
1 Ponder
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tomb of Urami
Sideboard:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree
1 Rough//Tumble
4 Duress
4 Xantid Swarm
The Tomb won me a game, the Cabals are very good because the most played deck is Pikula/Mono B Aggro/Pox, and here most people don't have enough answers to Empty the Warrens the first game so I play 3 and most of the time board 2 out game 2 and 3.
The Tomb would have won a 2nd Game, if Chris had'nt drew the Explosive ;)
http://www.kvdeckmasters.nl/Forum/in...2285#msg172285
For all Decklists of the Top8
That link is broken; you might want to remove the "..." and replace it with the actual contents of the line. If I'm not mistaken, the actual post is here. Anyway, the metagame looks very low on blue and it seems like artifact lock pieces aren't around in numbers either, so it's a good metagame for you. Good job on the finish, but did you at any point think extra Xantids or Abeyances could've turned the final around?
http://www.kvdeckmasters.nl/Forum/in...2285#msg172285
That's the link.
The finals were pretty one sided, but either way very much fun to watch. You did a good job, matelml. I sat right next to you and think you couldn't have done anything different, this is just a very bad matchup for you. I was pretty surprised by the Tomb though. I thought it was not considered maindeck material anymore. Of course, against Counterbalance it is quite solid. ;)
@ Lukas: Thanks, I couldn't find an out either, and I was in doubt about the Tomb but wanted a 11th land and decided i didn't want a 3rd paradise cause they are horrible in multiples and because it's the 11th land you don't cut any 5 color manasources anyway, I used to play 10 land and it worked pretty good too.
4 Chant's maindeck is certainly enough in The Netherlands, and I have up to 11 protection game 2. The Swarms are especially nice in the side because than they never die to removal.
Abayence sucks, you have enough situations where you can't cast the Chant, let alone the Abayence.
Hello,
I would like some metagame help to build "my" TES.
I think this deack is strongly flexible and offer a good adaptability to the metagame.
Seeing how Wastedlife change frequently his opinions about cards MD as much as SD, that prove this deck can be modular.
So, the minimal uncounternable cards are for me (first number is MD, second, SD) :
1-1 empty the warrens
1-1 tendrills of Agony
for the kill
1-1 diminishing returns
1-1 ill-gotten gains
4-0 burning wish
4-0 infernal tutor
for the storm
4-0 Dark ritual
4-0 rite of flame
4-0 LED
4-0 Lotus petal
2-0 Chrome mox
4-0 city of brass
4-0 gemstone mine
1-0 undiscovered paradize
for the mana
4-0 brainstorm
for the CA/CQ
4-0 orim's chant
for the protection
After that, i can have alternatives :
for the kill :
- tomb of Urami (can be a very good turn one)
- Storm entity (not very great except turn one, but can't be stiffled !)
- grapeshot (as a finisher)
- Ignite Memories (a little too coster and too gambler)
for the storm :
- plunge into darkness (for just one card tutor or sometime to gain point of life)
- infernal contract (cost hard, can fizzle, but offer lot of solution)
- gamble (in the sb, not the best tutor)
for the mana :
- seething song (a little high cost, but as good as DR)
- cabal ritual (good in a black discard-like meta)
- tinder wall (good in a response to T1 lackey, so in a gob meta)
- simian spirit guid (a great one)
- tomb of Urami (again)
for the CA/CQ
- ponder (a good complement to brainstorm)
- Dark confidant (good CA for the midgame and good to begin to kill, but weak against anti crea and our pyroclasm)
- street wrath (to diminish the deck size, and, why not, a castable creature)
- Magus of the library (a strange idea : CA or mana)
for the protection :
- xantid swarm (a "each turn" protection against Landstill or thresh, but weak against anti crea)
- abeyance (a good cantrip card for protection or timewalk)
- REB or pyroblast (rather a SD option)
- pyroclasm (against MM, True believer, Teeg... in SD)
- shatering spree (against chalice, thorn... in SD)
- tranquility (3CC against counterbalance)
- duress/thoughsize (for protection)
- needle (against wasteland)
After this summary for which I hope exaustive, can you help me to build my TES ? my meta is strongly control or aggro control. (landstill, thresh, fish, pikula...). In addition to that, there is lot of wasteland.
Thanks !
I don't think I would ever go below 4 Chrome Mox in TES. It's a necessary evil to keep the deck fast IMO. Also, your meta doesn't exactly sound like the best metagame for TES, but if you are going to play it in that meta I would definitely run 4x Confidant in the MD and probably 4x SSG in order to have uncounterable mana sources.
Kronicler
So, ok for the mana with 4 Chrome Mox and 4 SSG and ok for 4 DC for the CA and to help for the kill.
But what about protection, kill and storm ? I wonder what is the must, and in what proportion ?
And what about the wish box ?
So I played The Epic Storm at the recent Dragon's Lair legacy tournament and i took down first place for 4 Goyfs. Someone asked me to post my list in this forum so i will gladly do so. Any questions feel free to ask. I am mainly a vintage player, but i have recently begun to play more and more legacy, and i really do like the format. Anyways onto the decklist.
Mainboard
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Orim's Chant
2 Abeyance
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Confidant
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
Sideboard:
3 Shattering Spree
2 Deathmark
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tranquility
1 Pyroclasm
1 Cruel Bargain
I will in short go quickly into the decklist choices. I played the maindeck Bryant had given me at the last mana leak, i really could not find any changes i felt like making at this time, and the deck worked perfectly for me now that i know much more about it. I did change a few cards from his sideboard and mine. I took out the Diminishing Returns as i never found myself wishing for it, or wanting to wish for it, Ill-Gotten Gains is just the all star their. I also cut the one Duress in return for those two slots playing two Deathmark. Deathmark really wasnt overly helpful on the day, but it is a wishable way for me to take out Meddling Mage, and or Tarmogoyf, other than pyroclasm. In theory it works very well, but it wasnt very relevent on saturday. Again any questions feel free to leave them, i will answer to the best of my ability.
-Gaagooch
Did you ever find yourself casting Abeyance before going off? I would definitely play Returns in the side. Sometimes you just don't have enough mana to go for Igg and you need to returns to get a new hand. But I really want to know how Abeyance was.
Could you go through the matchups you played on Saturday? Is it worth expending resources to drop a Confidant that will likely die before it draws you anything?
@ Jak In this day i never cast abeyance before going off, but i have in the past, its another proactive card that helps protect you when you are going off. About returns, it has always seemed to be less than optimal of a wish target for me. I dont know through testing thats just the way i feel.
@Jaynel If you dont run confidant then what are you going to run? It works out really well, if bob draws you a single card, youre fine with it, and he beats for a storm copy per turn. He does die sometime, but my resources are usually a land and a simian spirit guide. Even if he dies it doesnt set me back that far. There is really nothing else you can put in that slot that will not use more resources anyways. I have to look over my notes for matches and such, but i will assuredly tell you soon...
I got first at a local tournament at Saturday with a record of 5-0-1. The draw was against Solidarity because we spend 45 minutes on g1 because we both had such a worse draw.
I played this list:
Mainboard
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Orim's Chant
4 Brainstorm
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Infernal Contract
1 Seething Song
2 Ponder
2 Cabal Ritual
Sideboard:
1 Diminishin Returns
1 Shattering Spree
3 Pyroblast
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tranquility
1 Pyroclasm
1 Infernal Contract
1 Duress
The draw4 are freeking awesome and won me about 4 games. I will play this list at the next tournaments here and report my results. I just love this list :)
Changes:
Main:
-1 Seething Song
+1 Cabal Ritual
Black mana is more important then red since we can get red from Spirit GUides too and Infernal is more important for the kill then Wish.Itīs easier to cast too.
Sideboard:
-1 Extract
+1 Xantid Swarm
3 Mana to fetch the Ghoul is much. And the fact that it does not win us the game results in the discharge.
To further respond to Raynel's question about dark confidant being good enough or not. I think it is one of the best cards in the deck. Think about it like this, you play a turn one confidant, using a land and a lotus petal, or simian spirit guide. If your opponent does not deal with the confidant by your next turn, you now get an extra draw, and every turn they don't deal with confidant from then on out only makes the game worse for them. You put the pressure on your opponent. As i see it in combo, it is all about putting the pressure on your opponent, and making them stop you if they can. Forcing them to find a way to win, your deck has its ways to win, it is already pretty simple and set up that way. Why wouldn't you want to run a card that essentially reads, deal with me when i am played, or else lose the game almost everytime. On saturday i won numerous matches simply because of playing confidant first turn. It won me a burn matchup, as playing a first turn bob caused my opponent to burn him out. Had any of the burn pointed at my confidant been pointed at my head instead, i would have lost the match. He is a flag-bearer, yes, but unchecked he single handedly lowers the needed storm to win, and enables you to get to that point much quicker.
Caused him to do what??? I guess this play wins him whatever the equivalent of Darwin Award in MTG is ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaagooch
But this example is definitely not the way to show how good Confidant is. Actually, when I play burn and I see an opponent "land,petal,Confidant,go" I am always so happy... Probably the single better play, from my point of view, is "land,ritual,Infernal Contract,go" :)
I dont play contract though so its ok, and if i did i would not ever want to cast it in that matchup, as it is usually insta-death. You will find that sometimes burn opponents will not burnout your confidant. Some players just dont think its worth it, whether they think it will help them by lowering your life total or not. In three games i went turn one ssg-land-bob. Two games he went fanatic, sac deal 1 to bob. That got one of his creatures off the table, granted its only a 1/1 but it slows him down enough. The one game he didnt kill my confidant on the first turn, it drew me the extra cards i needed to empty for more than lethal. He is just that good in my honest oppinion. Yes in that particular matchup he is less than stellar, but, he still is not the worst card you could ever see...
I think their point was you should be playing contract. It doesn't take 4 turns to draw 4 cards. Doesn't die to spot removal and can be cast on turn 1 to win the game.
What do you guys take out against thresh? I mean some of your lists run 2 swarms, 4 pyroblasts/reb. What do you take out without hurting the deck too much?
Also how often do you use the duress in the board. lately, I almost never use it and am thinking about cutting it.
I take out 1 ETW, 2 SSG, 2 Cabal Ritual, 1 X (normally a Chrome Mox). I like the Duress in the board, helps you in troublesome matches; such as Landstill or BBS.Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew77
I use Duress soooo often. Well, actually it makes Burning Wish a Protection Spell which helps alot if you want to play Chant. I would never cut it.
NQN
Whats your current list Bryant?
Same list as two pages back,Quote:
Originally Posted by APriestOfGix
// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
1 [MI] Infernal Contract
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
2 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [b] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [b] Tranquility
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroclasm
The list I've been kicking around lately (with success, mind you) is actually similar to that list.
You have ...
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Draw 4
I have ...
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Draw4
2 Duress
I also have liked Seething Song a lot as a one of in my testing.
It has been a while since I've checked back to this thread, lol
I've been contemplating the Brainstorm:Ponder ratio.
All my ratios so far have been 4:2, but I've been leaning towards 3:3 or 2:4.
Have you guys ventured into that yet? How did it pan out for you?
No. just no.Quote:
Originally Posted by yawg07
Seriously ponder is aweful compared to brainstorm. So it shuffles the deck at times. Big deal. You have no idea what will be on top. Brainstorm also enables so many more turn one kills. Going land, brainstorm effectively gives you 10 cards to work with on turn one. Ponder will not let you get rid of crappy cards and replace them with goodies you have on top.
I understand that point of view for sure.
And there are times when you don't have an LED and you need to
brainstorm a land or two out of your hand so you can Infernal Tutor.
Maybe it is just my luck lately, then.
50% of the time I brainstorm lately I'd have rather Pondered and shuffled.
Try cutting the duresses and adding some business spells then. 4 brainstorm/3 ponder worked out fine in testing. For me the right number was somewhere in between 6 and 7 cantrips. You basically love seeing one in your opening hand, but getting 2 can start slowing you down, and 3 will make things very clunky. I remember when I tried cutting the plunges from the old list to make room for 8 maindeck protection spells via xantid and I was having problems hitting business spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by yawg07
It might just be your luck since my current list is similar to yours...
-2 duress
-1 simian spirit guide
+1 draw 4
+2 cabal rituals
I have also recently tinkered with dropping another ponder and adding a draw 4. Its adds some random power, but loses a bit of consistency as you almost never want to see 2 draw 4's in an opening hand. There are also times you just cant cast them.
That's the reason why I would go for Plunge into Darkness again.
I always had the feeling that the deck suffered a lack of tutors since you (wastedlife) cutted Plunge into Darkness. But I can understand that, because the huge lifeloss would make TES more vulnerable against fast clocks (and combo should be faster).
But I tested the Draw4s, they are so fucking insane. It just gives you a huge advantage and is not dead within the comboturn compared to Dark Confidant. It can also win instantaneously sometimes.
Draw 4's help you so much. I haven't really cut them from my list since they were added as I love the advantage they can provide. A lot of times certain thresh variants or discard decks can pretty much stop your first attempt to combo with ease and destroy your hand at the same time. A draw 4 is almost always a must counter, so playing one before the combo turn will bait a counter from them. Playing it after the combo turn will threaten a kill. It is also an insane topdeck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Also looking at the worlds 4-1 decks someone played a version of TES. It looks like a fairly old version of the deck as it is still using plunge, and tomb.
The guy who was 2nd at the Dutch championship (1 page back, on the top on the page) also plays 2 Plunge (instead of the Draw4 played here) and 1 Tomb of Urami.. I also still play the Tomb, you win games on it, so why dont play it..
At the moment I play 8 Cantrips, but I'm thinking of cutting 2 Ponder for 2 Draw4..
And I like the Hull Breach in the "list from worlds". Also 4 Shattering Spree looks good, cause cards as CotV and Trini (but this card is still hard to kill with Spree, cause I dont play SSG.. They dont give storm and in my metagame there is many Discard, so Cabal Ritual is better here I think) are can kill you.
But then I have to cut 4 Xantid Swarm or 4 Duress (yeah, I play it over Pyroblast, also because of the metagame...)
Mvg
Just because people used to play Plunges and Tomb and many switched to other choices doesn't necessarilly mean they are inferior. I still play both not because of limited, old information but because I like them.Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew77
Tomb doesn't cast Chant, Brainstorm, Ponder, Rite of Flame or Burning Wish. That's why it was cut. These cards are too essential not to cast. As for Plunge I am sure as hell not going back to it, Contract and Bargain are just simply better. Hell play ponder as a 4x before plunge, atleats you can shuffle the chafe away without costing you 5-10 life.Quote:
Originally Posted by matelml
Yeah, I saw the worlds list of TES, congrats to that dude.
I think it's a mistake to cut the 2 Abeyances. It's everything players fear put into one card. Although TES needs to compete with Counterbalance, I'll opt for Bound // Determined. I mean, seriously, cut the Cabal Rits. Cabal Rits onl accelerate when you have two Draw 4's, six cantrips, and 12 Rituals (LED counts as Rituals when protection is resolved).
With Draw 4's you generally draw into Chant/Burning Wish-> Duress. If not the cards themselves a Brainstorm/Ponder will find one, that you likely drew off a draw 4. Draw 4's are crazy dangerous with this deck.
I don't know if you ever play this deck, but in my opinion it is too rare that you can pay 1W and still go off the same turn. Many times you can't even cast the Chant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
I'm not sure if the Tomb is optimal, but it's pretty good, especially game 2-3 and if you play enough other mana sources (I play it next to 10 5c lands).Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
I really like Plunge. Ponder just doesn't find that tutor or LED often enough for me, so I play both. I played 1 Ponder/2 Plunge at the Dutch Champs, but will probably switch to 3 Ponder/2 Plunge and play 1 EtW instead of 3. Most of the time I cast Plunge EOT for LED/Dark Ritual or Tutor/Wish and proceed to win in my turn, so the lifeloss won't matter. The loss of life actually matters a lot more with Contract as you usually pass the turn after casting it. And usually I prefer having 1 extra LED or Tutor without investment of resources over 4 extra random cards that I have to spend acceleration on.
Another advantage is that with some hands with Plunge + a lot of mana you can just combo right away without using it as setup, which would be way too risky with Ponder/Contract, especially if you sacced a LED.
I just wouldn't play more than 2 Plunge because it's very bad in multiples, and they are just the Tutors 9-10 that can be used to find accel/protection too.
Recently I have been toying with some random things in the board. For example I run a single confidant since a lot of people in my area still don't know what TES is and if I board him in and they see him they will assume I have 4 and bring things like stp back in.
On abeyance... there are few matchups where the card is even ideal. Against almost every blue control deck out there you would prefer pyroblast or reb.
My biggest problem with plunge atm is that it costs 2. I dont really want to cast it turn one and waste a ssg or some other form of accel, and casting it turn 2 leads to a turn 3 kill, which imo is a bit slow. Ponder digs pretty deep and is a turn one play. When you arent comboing off on turn one running ponders/brainstorms let you work on setting up a t2 kill. The only advantage i see with plunge is that after a dreturns when you might not have blue open or when you need to find a kill condition it allows you to dig deeper and what not. Those situations are rare though and imo dont warrant running plunge.
Ponder is still the best card I've used in the open slots, TES's biggest flaw is that it's inconsistent and it's mulligans set it back several turns. Ponder is a self sufficient fixer, in the same sense that Night Whispers or Plunge into Darkness was, except it's in a drop that the deck needs to fill after Orim's Chant replaced Xantid Swarm. Sure, Draw4s are awesome if you have a Dark Ritual in your hand and your opponent doesn't have a counter in his, but TES's strength comes from never giving the opponent a clear target to counter, and Draw4s are counter intuitive in that sense. Draw4s either force you to play bad cards, Cabal Ritual, force you into the red zone or force you to play too few of them to matter. Ponder gets the job done, doesn't give your opponent a target and is 100% reliable. Even in multiples the card is great, you just cast Ponder to hit another mana land etc. and it's plus one storm for the turn.
Ponder doesn't always get the job done, sometimes you need more than one card. Why waste a card to get a land mid combo? Also, seems terrible. with 8 cantrips in the deck you spend too much time cantripping, trust me I've tested the hell out of this. Most of the time you don't win until turn 3-4 because you're stuck with more Blue or White cards in your hand. I'd rather just draw 4 cards and win the game that turn, do you know how good turn 1 Dark Ritual or Cabal Ritual into Cruel Bargain is? Not even that against control you tap 3 lands and Bargain. You don't even waste accel and it's a must counter. If it's game two you can even Red blast it to make sure your bomb resolves without investing too much like LED -> Diminishing Returns. Cabal Ritual may not be a good card but I wouldn't say it's bad. It has it's moments, Threshold makes it another LED after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Have you tried increasing the Cabal Rit and Draw 4 count yet? From what you've said, you can seriously bait the hell of out a lot of Control and still maintain a strong game against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife