[Deck] Ichorid

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund

Basically what people said:
- Chalice is better against fast combo
- Chalice costs 0 mana

And I'd like to add that:
- Chalice stops Engineered Explosives at 0 (at least semi-permanently) and so buys time
- Chalice is a great out to Extirpate if you get paired against control where you have time to find 2 lands

---

I agree with you first two points. However, Needle deals with Explosives better than chalice does. Not only can explosives be played around chalice, like sockmonkey said, but chalice can't deal with explosives that have already hit play. Yes, chalice is free, but is it worth sacrificing the power of needle over it?

Sidenote: In a meta crawling with TES/Belcher, I can see why Chalice would get the SB slot. For the sake of my argument, this is not the case.

EE can also get around Chalice for 0 if they pay :1: for it via Wasteland/Factory/Monastery or whatever, so even then Needle seems like the better call to me.

Yeah, thats what I was getting at.

On another note, is Brainstorm/Careful Study even needed? I've been doing fine in testing with just 4 Breathrough, 3 Deep Anal, and 4 Coliseum. I cut the other draw in favor of a 4th Thug, among other things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyQuinn

Yeah, thats what I was getting at.

On another note, is Brainstorm/Careful Study even needed? I've been doing fine in testing with just 4 Breathrough, 3 Deep Anal, and 4 Coliseum. I cut the other draw in favor of a 4th Thug, among other things.

---

I believe so, once Deep Analysis is reduced to 1x and Careful Study is added, the deck is more consistent. The deck functions with ?x Deep Analysis and 0x Careful Study, but that doesn't mean that there isn't room for structural improvements.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bovinious

EE can also get around Chalice for 0 if they pay :1: for it via Wasteland/Factory/Monastery or whatever, so even then Needle seems like the better call to me.

---

The good thing abut Chalice is, that you drop it on your first turn and it stop both: Crypt and Explosives. No matter what they boarded you dealt with both of them.
The bad thing is, that it's fucking useless against Belcher compared to a Needle (this is why I will probably will swith back to the Needles).

It would be super secret tech to show up with a magnivore, fueled by deep analysis and breakthrough and maybe careful study dealing a whopping approx. 8 damage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously, am I right when I'm saying that nonland, non super broken yard effects (and that broken isn't goyf broken) should be in this deck. WTF is people suggesting mortivore and goyf? Mortivore might be good if it had haste, but it hasn't. And even if it had, it would definitely not belong in this deck. Goyf doesn't belong in every deck! Dread Returning a goyf would be the far most worst play. The deck's nearly perfect as it is right now, whichever little twists on it that occurs. If my meta wans't packing leylines and crypts n SB and some even in MB, I would play it, that's for sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

I believe so, once Deep Analysis is reduced to 1x and Careful Study is added, the deck is more consistent. The deck functions with ?x Deep Analysis and 0x Careful Study, but that doesn't mean that there isn't room for structural improvements.

---

Ive respected what you had to say earlier about Careful Study and how its clearly better than Brainstorm and all, but seriously NO ONE else is cutting DA down to 1 or whatever you say, having 1 is terrible because if you cant count on hitting it when you have UU or UUU floating so theres really no point of it at all. You are right though the deck does not need Careful Study or for that matter DA, but the deck does function a lot better with DA and probably from extra draw spells in the form of Careful Study, as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch

The good thing abut Chalice is, that you drop it on your first turn and it stop both: Crypt and Explosives. No matter what they boarded you dealt with both of them.
The bad thing is, that it's fucking useless against Belcher compared to a Needle (this is why I will probably will swith back to the Needles).

---

Why do people always say stuff like this? Your first turn is NOT fast enough, you WILL be on the draw, so Chalice is not an answer if they draw either of those...having to just pack it in game 2 is awful when you could just play Needle, name Crypt or EE, and play around the second of those 2 IF they even drew it...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bovinious

Why do people always say stuff like this? Your first turn is NOT fast enough, you WILL be on the draw, so Chalice is not an answer if they draw either of those...having to just pack it in game 2 is awful when you could just play Needle, name Crypt or EE, and play around the second of those 2 IF they even drew it...

---

Because Needle stops things they've in their opening hand which Chalice doesn't, but Chalice stops topdecked solutions much better than Needle.
And why not play around the first one they put on the board and prevent all the others. Sounds like a pretty good plan to me. It's much easier to play around a known threat than around a random topdeck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bovinious

Ive respected what you had to say earlier about Careful Study and how its clearly better than Brainstorm and all, but seriously NO ONE else is cutting DA down to 1 or whatever you say, having 1 is terrible because if you cant count on hitting it when you have UU or UUU floating so theres really no point of it at all. You are right though the deck does not need Careful Study or for that matter DA, but the deck does function a lot better with DA and probably from extra draw spells in the form of Careful Study, as well.

---

When I say 1 Deep Analysis I don't necessarily mean only 1, rather start with 1 and then increase the number of them until you're consistently casting the card off of Breakthrough + LED, Careful Study + LED or Cephalid Coliseum + LED chains with out consistently drawing it as a blank.

Whether or not that number is 1, 2, 3 or 4 isn't the issue, my point is that the deck shouldn't assume that 4 Deep Analysis is the base line and then cut back, but assume 1 Deep Analysis is the base line and then add more.

Even if the correct number is 1, and I'm not saying it is, saying that there's no point to 1 at all is just wrong. On average the deck is going to see 25% of its deck after Careful Study, Lion's Eye Diamond and two dredgers, if 1 Deep Analysis gives the deck a double Time Walk 1 in 4 times, that's significant. If it weren't significant, I wouldn't have bothered with it at all. There's a mathematical solution to the problem, I'm just not certain how to solve it.

Deep Analysis, like Dread Return, is a modular slot, and I'm just arguing perspectives, not absolutes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch

Because Needle stops things they've in their opening hand which Chalice doesn't, but Chalice stops topdecked solutions much better than Needle.
And why not play around the first one they put on the board and prevent all the others. Sounds like a pretty good plan to me. It's much easier to play around a known threat than around a random topdeck.

---

How does Chalice stop topdeck solutions better than needle? Needle stops a topdecked crypt as easily as a chalice does.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch

Because Needle stops things they've in their opening hand which Chalice doesn't, but Chalice stops topdecked solutions much better than Needle.
And why not play around the first one they put on the board and prevent all the others. Sounds like a pretty good plan to me. It's much easier to play around a known threat than around a random topdeck.

---

Needle prevents topdecks also, granted just of the card you named. Why would I want to play around the first Crypt when I can Needle it and not need to worry at all? You may have to worry about top-decked EE but thats really not a big deal, theyll kill ur tokens, next turn youll get more tokens, doesnt seem that bad unless somehow theyre winning that turn, the tradeoff is definately worth it because if your opponent draws Crypt in his opening grip, which some people mull to, your going to feel pretty dumb you have Chalice and not Needle, almost every time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

When I say 1 Deep Analysis I don't necessarily mean only 1, rather start with 1 and then increase the number of them until you're consistently casting the card off of Breakthrough + LED, Careful Study + LED or Cephalid Coliseum + LED chains with out consistently drawing it as a blank.

Whether or not that number is 1, 2, 3 or 4 isn't the issue, my point is that the deck shouldn't assume that 4 Deep Analysis is the base line and then cut back, but assume 1 Deep Analysis is the base line and then add more.

Even if the correct number is 1, and I'm not saying it is, saying that there's no point to 1 at all is just wrong. On average the deck is going to see 25% of its deck after Careful Study, Lion's Eye Diamond and two dredgers, if 1 Deep Analysis gives the deck a double Time Walk 1 in 4 times, that's significant. If it weren't significant, I wouldn't have bothered with it at all. There's a mathematical solution to the problem, I'm just not certain how to solve it.

Deep Analysis, like Dread Return, is a modular slot, and I'm just arguing perspectives, not absolutes.

---

Fair enough, however I still think the minimum number of DAs to run is 3, POSSIBLY 2, but I see what you were going for with adding rather than subtracting.

@Spirit of the Wretch

You did not play Cephalid Sage in your list. Why is that? Did you ever miss it?

The Sage always feels a little bit like "win more" to me and I wanted to improve the consitancy of the deck (by playing BS). This came at the cost of explosivness, of course. And as the DR package gets boarded out almost every single game, I decided to cut it down to the absolute minimum.
I missed the Sage when facing Belcher. Combo is the only matchup where he really shines. In every other MU you're usually able to kill fast enough without him, but that one turn you might get from reanimating him against combo.decs is crucial. I do however like Gamble/BS a lot better in this slot, as it is simply good against every deck.

@Bovinious:
Especially against Grow I like to have the option of slow-dredging. You can play around a Crypt quite ok this way. The problem with slow-dredging is, that it's ..., well ... slow. So you might suffer some serious Goyf (aka Mr 6/7 second turn in this MU) beatings. A topdecked EE (to remove your blockers) can mean GG.
As I mentioned the only real advantage I see is that Needle can shut down Belcher (an issue in my metagame), which Chalice can't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch

@Bovinious:
Especially against Grow I like to have the option of slow-dredging. You can play around a Crypt quite ok this way. The problem with slow-dredging is, that it's ..., well ... slow. So you might suffer some serious Goyf (aka Mr 6/7 second turn in this MU) beatings. A topdecked EE (to remove your blockers) can mean GG.
As I mentioned the only real advantage I see is that Needle can shut down Belcher (an issue in my metagame), which Chalice can't.

---

How is Needle or Crypt relevent to slow-dredging? You can do that either way but possibly wouldnt have to on the draw if you have Needle, while you would need to with Chalice. Topdecked EE will very rarely lose you the game unless your in some serious trouble otherwise, that statement is almost laughable to me. All EE does is kill your zombies which you will get back next turn, its basically either a Fog or a Turnabout. Id be much more worried about Deeds which can kill their creatures too removing your Bridges so you cant make a new army next turn, and only Needle stops Deed. Chalice is probably better in a meta infested with Belcher/Storm combo because stopping LED/Mox/Petal is probably better than just stopping a Belcher they may not even have, but again your Chalice may never even get to hit the table game 2...I still havnt seen a compelling argument to run Chalice over Needle unless your meta is packed with fast combo, yet some people run Chalice even when there is not much combo, and I dont see why.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bovinious

some people run Chalice even when there is not much combo, and I dont see why.

---

Because Chalice= $5.00 and Needle= $15.00? I know that's why I bought a playset of Chalice first anyway. I would actually prefer the Needles but I can't afford them and I have no way to trade for them where I am. The last time I went to a tournament nobody had any for trade either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ataxrxes

Because Chalice= $5.00 and Needle= $15.00? I know that's why I bought a playset of Chalice first anyway. I would actually prefer the Needles but I can't afford them and I have no way to trade for them where I am. The last time I went to a tournament nobody had any for trade either.

---

See I think that is a good answer, Id much rather someone play something slightly worse for monetary reasons and admit it than have people just claim the cheaper card is better to justify their decision. I guess to an extent this deck is a budget deck because the only expensive thing MD is the LEDs, so I can see people not wanting to pay for Needles, but like you said Needle is usually still better if you can afford it.

Combo aside, one of the reasons I run Chalice of the Void instead of Pithing Needle in the SB is that I don't plan on SBing game 2. If the opponent resolves Tormod's Crypt, then the deck can play thru' it, if the opponent doesn't have Tormod's Crypt, then the deck can operate at full speed with out having removed threats for answers, answers that may or may not be the correct answers depending on the opponent's SB. Game 3, Chalice of the Void is superior to Pithing Needle because Chalice of the Void is free, the opponent has revealed Tormod's Crypt is in his deck and it also prevents Engineered Explosives from clearing Zombie Tokens as an added bonus.

Ichorid is a tempo deck, so being able to do things for free is significant. I don't think Chalice of the Void is better than Pithing Needle or Pithing Needle is better than Chalice of the Void, it's just a question of how you approach your match ups and SBing. I figure game 1 is in the bag, and game 2 is a crap shoot, so game 3 needs to have the most efficient answers, ergo Chalice of the Void instead of Pithing Needle.

I played Ichorid at the Belgian Champs, and I was 13th (129 players).
I played this list:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [5E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot

// Spells
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
2 [TSP] Dread Return (what should I cut for the 3rd?)
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void (because I have no Peedles)

There was a Problem with the Sage, the guy I bought it from send me the wrong Cephalid, so I played 1 Careful Study more.. (normally I play 2).

This were my matchups:
* 2-0 Some stupid Casual deck :rolleyes:
* 2-1 TES
Lose game 1 because of a turn 1 winn, turn 2 board in CotV, mulled to 5 with a CotV and later a Therapy was enough, then boarded in Leylines, so I hoped I could slow him down (for his Rite of Flame, Cabal Ritual and IGG) and then Cotv/Therapy. In my opening hand were 2 Leylines and 2 Cotv, and later some Therapy-flashbacks. I'm so lucky :cool:
* 2-1 Grow with black (boarded in Vapors cause I expected he should board in Leylines, but he boarded in Crypts, so there is the loss from, the first Crypt -> Vapor -> Therapy, but there came a second out of his Confidant
* 0-2 DragonStompy (i played against this deck before the tournament, and I lways lose to it, also other Ichorid players Imet at the tournament lose of it. The first time i saw it i thought it was a good matchup, do I play wrong against this deck? Or slows turn 1 Trini/Chalice/Moon (they always play them if I would play a Cephalid land) you to much down, with there fast kill..
* 2-0 Aluren
* 1-2 Elves (very strange, i won game 1. Game 2 he mulled to 5, I kept a hand with 3 Therapys, a land and some dredgers, I thought if I Therapy myself for dredgers and Therapy him 2 times for creature I will win. But he was still to fast (when I look back on it, I dont know why I kept this hand :S..), and game 3 I mulled to 5, and his Crypt was to much..)
* 2-0 The mirror :D, always nice to win the mirror with 2-0... Game 2 was pretty cool, we both knew we boarded in Leylines, so i asked him how many Leylines he had,, we both had 2 Leylines, but end of his turn I went Vapor, he kopied him, but I was faster, because i could begin one turn faster (I already had a PImp on the table).

I'm very happy with the build, i didnt missed the Sage, but that was luck.. Also the Cotv's are very good I think, normally 1 Crypt shouldnt be very problematic, you dont have a land always (or dont want to use it), it give you a change VS combo, and if it comes to late, you always have a Game 3. So I keep them instead of Peedles.

Is there someone how you can play the best against DragonStompy? Cause I think this shouldnt be a very hard matchup.

Mvg

ps. sorry of my bad english..

Congratulations on your results. I've seen you play in the tournament and had been wondering were the Sage was:tongue: . You did much better than the guy using my Ichorid in the tournament. I'm really glad you did this good because people underestimate the deck in the benelux.
I believe beating dragon stompy game 1 should be rather easy, they can't really beat recurring Ichorids that bring tokens to the game. If they have a clock under 5 turns you should win this. Or just combo win is they don't have trinisphere.
Game 2 will be a lot harder due to crypts en probably pyroclasms. Go for the combo win if they don't drop the trinisphere otherwise just hope for the best.
Game 3 side in your chalice en drop it turn 1 on 0. Just play trough the pyroclasm.
It won't be easy but I believe it won't be that hard either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thejack

Congratulations on your results.

---

#

Against DS it's a big difference between the Matchup pre- and postboard, preboard it shouldn't be a problem, but postboard you have to play through 3sphere, Keg, Crypts, and he know what you are playing, so he will try to put you under pressure.
So preboard it's nearly autowin, postboard close to an autoloss.

I've tested the Dragon Stompy matchup heavily and it's bad, even preboard. You definitely need an explosive hand and be lucky that he doesn't play a turn 1 Trinisphere / Chalice set on the right value to slow you down significantly. There's no such thing as slowrolling when you're facing a turn 2 Arc-Slogger followed up by Jitte. And, believe it or not, Magus of the Moon can screw the hell out of you. If you want to win vs DS:
1) Keep a hand that can win undisruptedly on turn 3.
2) Hope for mulligans of your opp.
3) Play Cephalid Sage.

Ok, I gonna test that matchup many times this week :).

And what do you guys think of this list:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [5E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage

// Spells
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [US] Gamble

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

There's one slot, should I play one more Gamble, one more DReturn, or 1 more PImp?

Mvg

Hello everyone !!! I just had an idea which could be useful for the decks development ( then again maybe it isnt)

How about we take out the pithing needles in the board and replace them with 4 mystical tutors. I like them because they enable us to effectively have more copies of chain of vapor in the deck without severely diluting the combo since they can also fetch draw spells and discard enablers. Also the vapors can effectively do what pithing can plus a lone echoing truth can handle multiple crypts or leylines on the board.

I also feel that it is now time to start hating other decks back!!! We have access to 5colors allowing us to cast all of the most powerful 1cc hosers in the game. Unfortunately I do not know what those are but maybe more card savvy members can find them. They do not have to be in multiples since gamble or mystical tutor can be used to fetch them or can be combo pieces themselves if laying down hate is unnecessary.

Finally I advocate the use of extra rainbow lands in the sb since hate will effectively slow the deck down and extra lands help it survive better in the long game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dr.Kokusho

Hello everyone !!! I just had an idea which could be useful for the decks development ( then again maybe it isnt)

How about we take out the pithing needles in the board and replace them with 4 mystical tutors. I like them because they enable us to effectively have more copies of chain of vapor in the deck without severely diluting the combo since they can also fetch draw spells and discard enablers. Also the vapors can effectively do what pithing can plus a lone echoing truth can handle multiple crypts or leylines on the board.

---

Since gamble was bad, why even play with Mystical Tutors?
Pithing Needle in play solves Tormod Crypt problems as long as it stays in play. Mystical Tutor does not. Chain of Vapors only forces them to use it or stall it for a turn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dr.Kokusho

I also feel that it is now time to start hating other decks back!!! We have access to 5colors allowing us to cast all of the most powerful 1cc hosers in the game. Unfortunately I do not know what those are but maybe more card savvy members can find them. They do not have to be in multiples since gamble or mystical tutor can be used to fetch them or can be combo pieces themselves if laying down hate is unnecessary.

---

Like Pithing Needle? That is one mana and is a really powerful hoser against certain kinds of stuff. (Crypt, Deed)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dr.Kokusho

Finally I advocate the use of extra rainbow lands in the sb since hate will effectively slow the deck down and extra lands help it survive better in the long game.

---

However, this is a combo deck. When given the opportunity, it wants to try to win as fast as possible right? Not to mention that when you start dredging, it is hard to dig up some lands.

Maybe its best that before I suggest card additions to the deck that I first share my views on the ichorid deck as a whole so that the framework of reasoning behind my card choices can be better understood or that corrections can be made to the misconceptions that other people and I have about the deck.

Legacy Ichorid Combo - A deck that aims to win by filling the graveyard with cards and abusing massive card advantage provided by cards that function in the graveyard to achieve victory.

I would like to define a term which I would be using frequently which we'll call "going off". This means successfully resolving a draw 3 or 4 spell that would enable a chain of undisrupted dredges that result in a lot of cards in the graveyard.

When you "go off" successfully the opponent usually dies due to hasted zombies or they will just lose since they will often experience a combination of multiple zombie tokens, a reanimated fatty, multiple discards, and reccuring ichorids that produce more zombies which would overwhelm most decks' resources to fight back.

With this in mind my mindset when playing the deck is to "go off" as fast as possible. In my experience once you go off you generally win, barring misplays (not using cabal therapies to get rid of opponents answers) or lucky topdecks (such as a topdecked solitary confinement)

Other combo decks also apply this strategy since they "go off" in their own ways to win the game but there are many advantages to the ichorid combo that other combo decks do not.

1. It regularly goes off on turn 1 and 2 allowing us to bypass intaractions forced by many decks. This means the combo can only be disrupted in turn 1 by FOW. Turn 2 is more disruptable since it is vulnerable to daze, trini, COtV, Wasteland Etc, but if the opponents do not have them they lose. If they do you do still have a chance to "go off".

2. Ichorid requires 4 pieces to go off, namely a draw spell, a mana source, a discard outlet and a dredger. Fortunately many of the pieces fulfill multiple roles (such as colliseum being both an outlet, a mana source and a draw; careful being a draw or outlet; and LED which is an outlet and a mana source) leading to less mulligans and less reliance on tutors to find pieces.

3. Ichorid has a very good aggro back up plan against counter based control if ever they prevent us from "going off" which comes in the form of ichorid, Pimp and zombie token beatdown.

Because of these reasons it is very likely that the ichorid player will win game 1

Now assuming we win game 1, we come to the much more difficult game 2. Here we lose the advantage of non-interactivity since the the opponent gets to play first and more importantly starts boarding in graveyard hate. Due to this the ichorid deck's plan changes a bit. Though the plan is still to "win as fast as possible" , it is more accurately described as " get rid of hate then go-off" which is a lot more difficult to do.

This is because when graveyard hate hits play, we essentially need to have 5 things in our hand to "go off" and these are a mana source, a dredger, a draw spell, a discard outlet , and the anti-hate we board in. Also unlike the other pieces which can serve multiple purposes, anti-hate only functons as anti-hate which does not help us "go off" when there is no graveyard hate in play.

Now assuming that we draw those 5 on the opening 8 cards then all is well and good but more often than not one or two pieces are missing and therefore the deck will have to draw a few more cards before effectively "going off" which often leads to longer games and a much more dificult fight.

This is why I thought of using mystical tutors in game 2 since they can function as anti-hate, draw or discard outlet depending on what you tutor for. Using tutors also allows us to board out spells that are dead with graveyard hate in play such as 2 breakthroughs while not diluting the dredge engine since the tutors can get echoing truth, chain of vapor or they can act as breakthroughs 3-6 though it may be delayed by a turn. Gamble also plays this role as well and in fact sometimes it is better since it can get any of the pieces required to "go off" and puts it in the hand instead of going to the top of the library. However gamble is indeed a gamble due to the random discard. For people who want consistency over power, mystical tutor is a better choice.

Some might say that bouncing a crypt is a temporary solution and I find that this is not so. The bounce usually happens at the end of the turn before going off. Now assuming the crypt is bounced and you "go off" the next turn then the crypt will no longer be a threat since it would be cabal therapied. If your opponent did not have resources stopping the vapor and you"going off" then it is extremely likely he has no way to stop you from making him discard the crypts allowing you to use the graveyard resources without fear (barring a topdecked crypt of course). There are exceptions of course where needle is much better such as multiple tormods in play but I give more likely siutations higher consideration than the exceptional ones.

I also think it would be best not to side in pithings game 2 unless fighting combo since I am unsure if my opponent will side in leylines or the crypt. Id rather have the more versatile chain since it can be tutored and it can handle both types of hate. You might say that I can needle many other useful things apart from crypt such as wasteland, etc. but my playstyle would rather maximize my chances of "going off" rather than disrupting the opponents strategy . Game 3 is a different story since the hate has been identified and I have a better idea of what to pithing since I have been beaten and I know what cards apart from crypt that need to be shut down since they caused my defeat.

In some game 3s i bring the anti-hate back out and just hope fora turn 1 undisruptable kill on the play. This strategy can pay off in non-leyline using decks or if you are tired and do not want to play a long complicated game.

My final and most controversial opinion for others is the addition of rainbowlands or non-land mana producing spells such as lotus petals and chrome moxen in the sb. Now in my experience with the deck, game 3 usually becomes a mulligan fest for the opposing deck. If they won game 2 then it was probably due to the presence of hate. That is why they will often mulligan to hate even if the rest of his cards are crap such as a sui black player mulliganning to leyline and 2 wastelands with many black creatures or a goblin deck mulliganing to leyline with rishadan and aether vial with no mountains. So generally the opponent would rather keep disruptive and slow hand rather than try to win quickly resulting for a much longer game.

Now for ichorid to "go off" successfully it needs to use at least 3 mana. 1 mana to remove the hate, 1 mana to discard and 1 mana to draw. I often find myself mulliganing to 1 landers and I can get the hate of the table, but then my only land gets wasted away preventing me from casting spells until I topdeck another land. I know I can still play slow dredge but it is a strategy that has never won for me; therefore I am not in favor of it. Addition of non wastelandable sources of mana such as the petals or chrome moxen or additional lands can help in ensuring access to at least 1 mana the whole game and could have netted me victories in some of my game 3 losses.

This is all opinion though and criticisms and alternate reasonings would be most welcome.

@Kokusho


Your list runs 59 cards. You may add a Putrid Imp in that remaining slot since he is so retarded.

I think that was to me, instead then to Kokusho..

And it was my question which card i should play in the last slot :). Yeah, the 4th PImp looks best :).

Mvg

I'm thinking to make this changes to my latest list:

Main:
+ 1 Gamble (instead of 1 PImp more)

Side:
+ 1 Echoing Truth (a reason for the 3th Gamble)
- 1 Ray of Revelation (1 is enough)

So you have 5 bounce spells, and 3 searches for them.. The truth is good for multiple Leylines/Crypts (sometimes I board in Bounce, cause I think they board in Leylines, but then I see Crypt´s.. when I dont know what they should board in, I board in the Bounce,, Bounce against Crypts is better then CotV against Leyline :P, and when you can combo the same turn ore can use a Therapy its not a problem any more..) but I gonna test if its good enough (cause it cost 2 mana!)

Mvg

Is there any reason that mental note isn't used in this deck? I mean, it puts 2 cards from the library into the graveyard and then you draw/dredge.

Has it been excluded because you can't be sure you will be throwing away a dredge card?

Mental Note would be worse than Careful Study, Tireless Tribe, Street Wraith, Brainstorm, and a few other cards prolly. The card is just unreliable and weak in this deck and awful in general.

Maybe I'll take part in the next tournament with Ichorid, I'm not sure to choose Icho for this tournament, cause most of the players expect Grow, Landstill :smile: and Belcher:frown: .

My current list:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 LED
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 DA
3 Dread Return

4 Bridge from below

4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
2 Cephalid Sage
1 FKZ/Homura, Human Ascendant

At the moment I'm not sure to play FKZ and not Homura, because Homura enable Ichorid to beat for 5, and turns the token to flying Werebears.
So my thought is, that Homura put me in a position to rape some random aggrodecks.

Homura doesnt really help you win the same turn you return him, which is the whole point of FKZ. We could just wait a turn with a bunch of 2/2s and Ichorids to win the next turn w/0 FKZ, so why is winning more the next turn better than usually winning a turn earlier?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bovinious

Homura doesnt really help you win the same turn you return him, which is the whole point of FKZ. We could just wait a turn with a bunch of 2/2s and Ichorids to win the next turn w/0 FKZ, so why is winning more the next turn better than usually winning a turn earlier?

---

I know, but Homura coul be sacced for Therapy or another Return, (and flying Trolls have Style³). I actually don't know if Homura or FKZ is better, FKZ enables the 1stturnkill, but the MU against Fastcombo is worse with FKZ or Homura, against Grow, Landstill and so on it doesn't matter if you play Homura or FKZ.
I'll test again the next days.

I went to a tourney with 60+ man, and I went 9th (It was withhout Top 8, before the last round, I stand 5-1-0, I made the last game, we both had wonn 1 game, same play mistakes, very stupid mistakes, else i was 2nd! (I hate myself :P).

But what I wanted to know, sometimes, when they have Crypt, and they have draw/confidant, I see boarding in Chain (on the draw) or CotV (on the play) isnt enough.. I also play 1 Grudge, so I board him in too.. so what are the best card to board out? For 4 cards you board out Sage, FKZ and 2 Dread Return, but after that, what is good to board out? At the most I will board in 9 cards (4 Chain, 4 CotV, 1 Grudge), sometimes 8 (4 Chain, 4 CotV), sometimes 5 (4 Chain/4 CotV, 1 Grudge). So what do you guys think to board out after "the combo cards"?

Mvg

You just water down your engine a bit, I SB out 1 Golgari Thug (3 MD), Putrid Imp, Ichorid, DA, Breakthrough, in that order, also depending on the matchup.

Ok, so just take out some "random" cards.
And when do you board in more cards then you do other times? Cause you dont want to board in To much, then your deck becomes slower..
Sometimes I have not enough answers, and sometimes I have to many..

MVG

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ

I think that was to me, instead then to Kokusho..

And it was my question which card i should play in the last slot :). Yeah, the 4th PImp looks best :).

Mvg

---

Definately 4 PImp! He is very crucial to keep dredgers out of hand. He also beats with evasion where other discard outlets do not. Also for one mana hoser cards try my favorite card Stifle. It stops most of the sweepers (deed, keg, explosives) and saves you from crypt. This single card hoses most of the hose cards people bring in, it just doesn't stop Leyline (Blue or Black). Yes I went there. Blue leyline slows this deck tremendously by stopping multiple ichorids and zombies from being in play.

I am officially tired off my current decks and wish to hop on the Ichorid train finally. I have only played against Ichorid a few times, and never piloted one. From reading the thread a bit, I am getting a general idea of the ins and outs of the deck. However, I was wondering if there was a more extensive primer lying around somewhere. The opening post doesn't go too far in depth. My apologies if it is in an easy to find location.

Edit: You know what, posters already did an awesome job explaining how this deck works... I just had to read the ENTIRE thread and not just a few pages. Excuse me and my silly laziness. Great job guys and I really enjoyed reading this. Onward to happy zombie land!

Sorry for the double post. I was wondering what the state of the deck is in the current meta. It doesn't seem to be getting that much respect now. Its all about TES and Breakast. Is Ichorid a dying breed? Or is it just waiting for the right pilot.

Thats exactly what this Deck need, no attention not too much SB hate and a good player.