[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

@Emidln

So Ad Nauseum based combo doesn't have a good match up against any deck in the format, but Ad Nauseum is certain to get banned?

@Brehn

"Your storm engine costs 5 mana as opposed to the 5-7 mana of Doomsday, not too much of an improvement"

Seriously, are you trying to tell us you don't know how significant 2 mana is to a combo deck?

@Orim's Chant

Orim's Chant was good because Orim's Chant dealt with Ill Gotten Gain's and Diminishing Return's draw backs of either recurring or drawing the opponent into permission, but now that Ad Nauseum doesn't have that draw back you should be concentrating on discard and Red blasts to deal with Counterbalance.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

@Emidln
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Read his post again. He never said that.

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@Brehn
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1) Doomsday works with 5 mana under some circumstances.
2) The lower mana cost comes with some drawbacks. I don't think the reduced cost will outweigh them.

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Originally Posted by emidln

If the card does become popular, Chant will become increasingly relevant. I've said this time and again, but Chant and Duress are different types of protection. Chant provides protection against any kind of instant-speed hate and is only affected by hard counters. Duress (Thoughtseize making you lose 2 life is terrible.) might take a Force of Will letting AdN resolve, but if an opponent is still holding stifle/lightning bolt/etc you've essentially lost the game. If AdN stays legal and sees play (which is a big if because, in my testing, the card just isn't good against decks that play both countermagic and threats (the deck we know as Threshold) or disruption and threats (the decks we know as Dragon Stompy (chalice of the void), Suicide Black (heavy discard), Eva Green (heavy discard), Survival (heavy discard, gaddock teeg, new white creature), and Aggro Loam (chalice of the void)) you'll find an upsurge in UGR Thrash-type decks. That doesn't actually leave a whole lot of matchups where it's good. I've yet to see a solid plan for attacking UWb or UWbg Landstill (especially postboard).

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I don't know if I necessarily agree with your assessment of Ad Nauseum. Ad Nauseum seems to trump Stifle by letting you draw into more discard, and seems to trump discard as you just build up resources until you can go Mystical -> AdN and win. That's not to say that Thrash or Eva Green are going to be good matchups, but it also doesn't mean that AdN is a bad card by any means. I mean, it's basically a one card combo that wins the game on the spot if it resolves. That's absolutely insane.

Also, Chant also doesn't seem especially good against Ad Nauseum; the AdN player just sculpts a perfect hand and passes the turn, forcing you to win or find more disruption. I mean, Chant is definitely decent against AdN, don't get me wrong. But Chant seems even better alongside AdN, as it answers basically every card you've listed.

AdN will be used in some combo lists. It is not right for this one. This one is based on shuffle effects, filtering and Tutoring; not draw. Draw is SI, QSI and TES. While it is my opinion out of those 3 that TES is the best, I won't play it BECAUSE of it's reliance on drawing cards. I would MUCH rather tutor than I would draw. Drawing adds randomness to lists that I would rather not count on to win. Tutoring >>>>>>>>> Draw. That's why I think TES is the best. They run B. Wish and Infernal Tutor along with a few shuffle effects and filtering, but in the end it's a Draw-4/Draw-7 and now a draw-X for the win. Something I won't tolerate in my combo list. It's too easy to get screwed over by random shit your deck throws at you.

I don't see chant ever becoming irrelevant in a combo deck barring the banning of Force of Will and Daze, which obviously won't happen. I like discard also, but I'm going to say that Chant is what makes this deck thrive. Ever play against Burn? Not chanting on turn 3 (Enough time for burn to get you down into single digits) can cost you the game. Same against UGr Thrash. Burn beats you if you don't chant. With this I'm referring to D-Day, but the concept remains true with a card that has a life-loss clause, which AdN absolutely has. I played against a good build today (SI-ish but with Ponders and Brainstorms) on MWS, and it beat me once turn 1 on the play. I couldn't do jack. However, without the Nutz draw, my deck (DDFT) is absolutely god against it. Chanting after they draw a crap-ton of cards with AdN is awesome. They discard down, you can Duress OR better yet, tutor for another Chant, tap top into it and then feel free to sit and dig as long as you like for your Tendrils as long as you keep W open. They can't do jack, especially with a Brainstorm in your hand to ward off their discard.

Also, Brandon, that new tech we, or at least I am testing, did extremely well in this matchup also. It's actually what killed him, I didn't even combo off one of the games. I beat him over the head with it for about 6 turns ftw.

This guy even ran 2x IGG md, which is what the list I proposed did. He could combo off the old IGG/IT way if he needed too. I wish I would have got his list because it did fairly well. It's mirror match sux, but it can be good. I would absolutely splash for white, drop the discard and run 4x Chant over any other form of protection.

He had to pass the turn after AdN'ing, and he was VERY low on life (2, I believe). Against anything that can deal damage in any amount of timely fashion (i.e. anything that has SOMETHING to turn sideways), that sucks significantly worse than being at 2 life with DDFT, as if you are at 2 life, you are probably comboing off for CERTAIN. That is how it works. You aren't trying to blindly draw into your win.

Also, calling AdN a "storm engine" is rediculously misleading. It is in NO WAY a storm engine. It's a Draw-spell, pure and simple. D-Day and IGG are Storm enablers, as they build up a storm count. AdN simply puts you in a possible position to get storm count. I am not sure if I'm repeating myself in saying the next thing, but if I am, it could use repeating anyway. A well-timed chant after a heftily invested-in AdN is devastating for any deck playing it. The fact that it is 5cc forces you to overinvest life into it so that it pays off, otherwise you wouldn't be playing it; you would be okay with drawing 7 for 4 mana, or 4 for 3 mana. It's one of those "danger of cool things" cards.

I think it will be broken, but I do think you are going about it in the wrong way when you aren't running chant. It's NECESSARY.

Think about it, the 2 most popular storm lists (FT varients and TES) both run a full set. The ones that AREN'T as popular don't (SI and QSI). I know that the lists have extremely different card choices all-around, but I must point out that they do run discard, a form of protection, and still they fizzle more and get disrupted easier.

It might be wiser to try and squeeze this card into something like Dark Tide. Resets would probably be the choice over Turnabout due to the 4cc of Turnabout. Hmm. It could be an option. Dark Rituals would be used of course, and it still could maintain it's instant-speed win with it. Doesn't sound too bad, and 5 mana is nothing to those lists. That might be the more viable option for it.

So, out of all my rambling, the point is that it's not for FT. You could build a list that resembles FT, but in it's current state it doesn't fit, nor does it compliment the current strategy. The current strategy is more than satisfactory. Why fix what isn't broken?

AdN needs to leave the thread for now. Maybe in the future it could see play, but at this point it's not going to happen. It's just to left-field for the build.

Pce,

--DC

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Originally Posted by Brehn

Read his post again. He never said that.



1) Doomsday works with 5 mana under some circumstances.
2) The lower mana cost comes with some drawbacks. I don't think the reduced cost will outweigh them.

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You're right, I misread the quote.

Doomsday is expensive, the Infernal Tutor + Doomsday + Sensei's DiviningTop + Meditate chain is at least 9 mana, the difference is Doomsday can split up its mana investment over multiple turns by either casting Sensei's Divining Top first or passing the turn after Doomsday. Even the Doomsday + Sensei's Divining Top into Brainstorm and 2xLion's Eye Diamond piles require a minimum of 5 mana and relies on having the perfect combination of mana and spells in hand when you go off.

AdN isn't as conditional, it's just a flat 5cc = win, which takes all of the mini-interactions out of the equation and reduces human error.

@ Dark Cynic

You're way, way, way out in left field.

The combo vs combo match up is irrelevant, the combo vs aggro-control and control match ups are what you need to prepare for. If maximizing your aggro-control and control match ups comes down to using disruption that pre-empts Counterbalance, then all combo decks remove Orim's Chant for Duress regardless. There's no reason to be concerned with combo decks meta gaming for other combo decks, it's just a ridiculous after thought considering the popularity of Land/Dreadstill and Threshold.

People's unwillingness to cut Orim's Chant just shows their inexperience with Storm combo in other formats, with out Doomsday, Ill Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns there isn't a need for it.

The AdN, Diminishing Returns and Draw 4 engine trade volatility for speed, and if you aren't comfortable with trading volatility for speed in combo, then your trading certainty for less speed and less speed = more disruption. The whole "AdN isn't a Storm engine" argument is kind of pointless, so Yawgmoth's Bargain and Necropotence aren't Storm engines because they draw cards? Whatever tutors for or draws into your Storm count and your kill condition is your Storm engine, let's not redefine the wheel here.

I do agree FT is defined by the Doomsday and Sensei's Divining Top interaction, but asking whether or not the Doomsday and Sensei's Divining Top interaction is better than AdN is relevant.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Doomsday is expensive, the Infernal Tutor + Doomsday + Sensei's DiviningTop + Meditate chain is at least 9 mana

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It's exactly 8 (+1 for Top, if you want to count that). And it's been a while since I've tutored for Doomsday with Infernal. I also don't play Infernal main atm. Usually Doomsday costs 5, 6 or 7.

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AdN isn't as conditional, it's just a flat 5cc = win

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No.

Drawing cards =/= winning. Especially if you're paying huge amounts of life for it. In order to win after AdN you need a deck with a really low curve and you need to be in the higher regions of life total. Can you win on 14 life with AdN if you're opponent is holding a bolt? I doubt it.

If you're saying
"Even the Doomsday + Sensei's Divining Top into Brainstorm and 2xLion's Eye Diamond piles require a minimum of 5 mana and relies on having the perfect combination of mana and spells in hand when you go off."
I could say
"The process of winning the game with Ad Nauseam requires exactly 5 mana and relies on having a perfect combination of superfluous mana artifacts in your deck and high enough life totals with respect to your opponent's available instant-speed 'disruption' (Lightning Bolt?) and his current board state (are you really able to pass the turn?)"

Thing is, you might be able to win on turn 2 or turn 3 with AdN. But you are most probably not able to win on turn 6 of a real game anymore. DDFT has to win before fetchlands and the opponent have dealt a total of 18 damage. ANFT has to win before fetchlands and the opponent have dealt a total of X damage, with X < 18. X is different for every ANFT build. How big is it for the ones you are testing?
Five? Say hello to your 14%-matchup UGr Thresh, then build another deck.
Nine? You can work on that, but do you really consistently goldfish with protection before turn 5?
Fifteen? That'd be good, but it won't work. You'd just flip another Ad Nauseam or Tendrils + Brainstorm and lose.

BtW, at that Duress vs. Chant argument: have you never encountered Thresh players who just Brainstorm/activate Top into Force after you've Duress'ed them?

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Originally Posted by b4r0n

I don't know if I necessarily agree with your assessment of Ad Nauseum. Ad Nauseum seems to trump Stifle by letting you draw into more discard, and seems to trump discard as you just build up resources until you can go Mystical -> AdN and win. That's not to say that Thrash or Eva Green are going to be good matchups, but it also doesn't mean that AdN is a bad card by any means. I mean, it's basically a one card combo that wins the game on the spot if it resolves. That's absolutely insane.

Also, Chant also doesn't seem especially good against Ad Nauseum; the AdN player just sculpts a perfect hand and passes the turn, forcing you to win or find more disruption. I mean, Chant is definitely decent against AdN, don't get me wrong. But Chant seems even better alongside AdN, as it answers basically every card you've listed.

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I'm not talking about playing against Chant. I'm talking about running Chant over Duress/Thoughtseize/Pact of Negation. Chant is a fundamentally different type of proactive anti-hate card than targetted discard. It functions much better against opponents who play not only countermagic, but also Burn, Stifle effects, and instant-speed manipulation (Brainstorm, Sensei's Top). Just because you Duress their FoW or Counterspell doesn't mean they won't burn you out, stifle Tendrils, or just draw into a different hard counter. Chant actually forces them to have a hard counter or lose the game (excepting weird activated abilities).

Edit:
@ Breathweapon

I highly recommend playing both Orim's Chants and Duresses. Not playing 8 disruption is kinda silly because you need different disruption for different things. Duress is good against CB but absolutely abysmal if you're trying to combo on turn 3+ when your opponent might very well have cards besides Force of Will that matter.

If you had experience with storm combo in other formats you would know that Chant was heavily played in TEPS for two seasons. This is because Extended, like Legacy, has a multitude of threats that 1 for 1 disruption like Thoughtseize and Duress didn't always solve. In Vintage, Chant sees some play in fast storm combo but its use is heavily limited by the presence of Misdirection in vintage control decks. This turns the common effect into Xantid Swarm for most people looking for the blanket coverage that Chant provides given the lack of post-board hate for swarm from control decks.

For the record, the variant of doomsday that Dark_Cynic is testing really skirts the line between Threshold and Tendrils Combo. It is not attempting to metagame for enemy combo decks, it plays the cards that it plays to beat the Threshold and Dreadstill decks. That doing so happens to crush enemy combo decks is a byproduct of strong design and strategy overlap.

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Originally Posted by Brehn

It's exactly 8 (+1 for Top, if you want to count that). And it's been a while since I've tutored for Doomsday with Infernal. I also don't play Infernal main atm. Usually Doomsday costs 5, 6 or 7.




No.

Drawing cards =/= winning. Especially if you're paying huge amounts of life for it. In order to win after AdN you need a deck with a really low curve and you need to be in the higher regions of life total. Can you win on 14 life with AdN if you're opponent is holding a bolt? I doubt it.

If you're saying
"Even the Doomsday + Sensei's Divining Top into Brainstorm and 2xLion's Eye Diamond piles require a minimum of 5 mana and relies on having the perfect combination of mana and spells in hand when you go off."
I could say
"The process of winning the game with Ad Nauseam requires exactly 5 mana and relies on having a perfect combination of superfluous mana artifacts in your deck and high enough life totals with respect to your opponent's available instant-speed 'disruption' (Lightning Bolt?) and his current board state (are you really able to pass the turn?)"

Thing is, you might be able to win on turn 2 or turn 3 with AdN. But you are most probably not able to win on turn 6 of a real game anymore. DDFT has to win before fetchlands and the opponent have dealt a total of 18 damage. ANFT has to win before fetchlands and the opponent have dealt a total of X damage, with X < 18. X is different for every ANFT build. How big is it for the ones you are testing?
Five? Say hello to your 14%-matchup UGr Thresh, then build another deck.
Nine? You can work on that, but do you really consistently goldfish with protection before turn 5?
Fifteen? That'd be good, but it won't work. You'd just flip another Ad Nauseam or Tendrils + Brainstorm and lose.

BtW, at that Duress vs. Chant argument: have you never encountered Thresh players who just Brainstorm/activate Top into Force after you've Duress'ed them?

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We just see Storm from different perspectives, you want to "sand bag" into Doomsday on turn 3+ while I want to "win" with Ad Nauseum on turn 1+. With an average CC of appr 1, I don't see aggro ever putting me into the red zone before I can go off with Ad Nauseum, and the entire argument just seems totally moot because you'd either MD or SB into Ill Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns and stomp on their nuts games 2/3 if it's a problem.

If the opponent can resolve Sensei's Divining Top and Brainstorm and hide Force of Will, and I'm stupid enough to not realize what he's doing, then he deserves to win. You face these problems because the FT style decks just don't put any pressure on their opponents. The "what ifs" behind Duress aren't nearly as important as ripping Counterbalance, like ever. Counters aren't the problem, Counterbalance is the problem.

Edit @ Emidln.

Orim's Chant is never, ever used in Vintage because it does nothing to address Stax.
Orim's Chant was used in Extended for Time Walking aggro more than 2x Stifle or 2xSpellsnare scenarios, which isn't that relevant if you're winning before turn 4, IMO.

Eh, it seems pointless to argue, the way you guys play FT is to sand bag into the win, AdN encourages the exact opposite.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Orim's Chant is never, ever used in Vintage because it does nothing to address Stax.

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Owen Turtenwald and Jeff Folinus seem to have put up recent results that disagree with you. He also seems to think that when constructing a deck, you should not attempt to confuse roles for cards. Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild are there to solve Stax. Orim's Chant is used to solve the combo mirror and the control matchup.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36170.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36125.0

I'm sure if I look harder, I can find more combo decks playing Chant. I believe Smmenen might have even written about it in a GrimLong article.

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Orim's Chant was used in Extended for Time Walking, which isn't that relevant if you're winning before turn 4, IMO.

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Apparently you never ran into a deck that played counterspells. While I was playing in top8s and during top8 contention, I ran into quite a few counterspell and stifle decks. Orim's Chant was really good against these decks. Incidentally, Orim's Chant was also good on my turn 4 with Lotus Bloom's trigger on the stack (to stop artifact destruction). It was good as a time walk as well, but the major reason to play it was always the ubiquity of blue.

I'm not talking about aggro. I'm talking about AggroControl with a clock.

In order to make an AN deck work (in theory) you need to do the following:
- Determine the value of "X", which I've used in my last post, via goldfishing.
- Determine how fast you can goldfish with protection.

Then compare the results and try to imagine if you can beat Threshold. After this, start playtesting.

I've heard a lot of babbling from you in the last days. First you wanted to build TPS with Thoughtseize and Forces. Now you're advocating to build an aggressive version of FT. You've always just said: "Resolved AN = win". But that's not true. It's only true if your life is high enough, and you haven't yet made any statements about the amount of life totals required for winning with AN in any of your lists.

You've posted two lists in the other thread. Both of them play fewer disruption than TES. The only deck that gets away with playing fewer disruption than TES is Belcher, which a) is bad, b) goes off turn 1. I wonder how you want to resolve AN while playing a ridiculous amount of 4 disruption spells. If this is the direction you want to take FT, I can only say "good luck". Because luck is what you need with these lists, in the same way as Belcher has always needed and will always need luck. I've built 2 decks with AN that kill on turn 1 - turn 2 as well, it's not very hard. But I don't consider them good, because they play a maximum of 4 disruption spells with limited ways of searching for them. Worse than TES, I say.

Edit: Also, please stop talking about other formats if you have no clue. I remember you saying that it was common in Extended to put a Rite of Flame in your Burning Wish-board and it should be thus done the same way in Legacy. Wanted to say something about Chant but emidln was faster.

He's taking Belcher philosophy and throwing it at FT. Obviously lacking in the experience department of playing a control-build of FT, I can see where he's coming from. He's wrong, but I get his standpoint.

I think that blind, non-filter drawing is crap in non-High Tide storm lists. That's just me.

Pce,

--DC

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Originally Posted by Brehn

I'm not talking about aggro. I'm talking about AggroControl with a clock.

In order to make an AN deck work (in theory) you need to do the following:
- Determine the value of "X", which I've used in my last post, via goldfishing.
- Determine how fast you can goldfish with protection.

Then compare the results and try to imagine if you can beat Threshold. After this, start playtesting.

I've heard a lot of babbling from you in the last days. First you wanted to build TPS with Thoughtseize and Forces. Now you're advocating to build an aggressive version of FT. You've always just said: "Resolved AN = win". But that's not true. It's only true if your life is high enough, and you haven't yet made any statements about the amount of life totals required for winning with AN in any of your lists.

You've posted two lists in the other thread. Both of them play fewer disruption than TES. The only deck that gets away with playing fewer disruption than TES is Belcher, which a) is bad, b) goes off turn 1. I wonder how you want to resolve AN while playing a ridiculous amount of 4 disruption spells. If this is the direction you want to take FT, I can only say "good luck". Because luck is what you need with these lists, in the same way as Belcher has always needed and will always need luck. I've built 2 decks with AN that kill on turn 1 - turn 2 as well, it's not very hard. But I don't consider them good, because they play a maximum of 4 disruption spells with limited ways of searching for them. Worse than TES, I say.

Edit: Also, please stop talking about other formats if you have no clue. I remember you saying that it was common in Extended to put a Rite of Flame in your Burning Wish-board and it should be thus done the same way in Legacy. Wanted to say something about Chant but emidln was faster.

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I'm not going to get into a I know X format better than you argument, I've ran Vintage storm decks longer than most people have even played the format, Orim's Chant is terrible in Stax metagames. I'm not a 100% expert on TEPS, but I remember a Rite of Flame being in the SB for awhile, right after Simian Spirit Guide was released, and it doesn't change the fact that Orim's Chant was being used in TEPS for different reasons than it's being used in TES and FT. Orim's Chant isn't a defacto choice over Duress, it has to be addressing either an innate weakness of the deck or it has to be addressing the format's disruption. In this format, the disruption you need to be addressing is Counterbalance, because Ad Nauseum is more or less immune to Stifle and counters aren't as devastating as lock pieces.

I've tested Ad Nauseum in over a dozen shells, re-adjusting my view points as I've collected empirical data. I'm not going to pull some random number out of my ass regarding the CC and life thresholds, because it's pointless considering the number of variables in game. You have to do your own testing and come to your own conclusions.

You don't need 8 pieces of disruption if you win before turn 3 or use Empty the Warrens to force counters onto acceleration, and if you can't win after you cast Ad Nauseum it's usually your own fault. It's not like Storm decks can't use Ad Nauseum, Ill Gotten Gains, Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens, if you've got red zone problems then you've still got outs. I never said the lists I posted were finished either, even tho' it's not difficult to build a deck that wins on the second turn with Ad Nauseum, it's incredibly difficult to optimize a deck that does it.

If all you've heard from me is rambling, than all I've heard from you is bitching.

@DC

I'm competent with FT, I was running the 4 Doomsday control lists before Emidln if you scroll way back.

The problem is we aren't on the same page, while you're thinking about putting Ad Nauseum into FT, I'm thinking about redesigning Storm combo around Ad Nauseum. Obviously you can't replace Doomsday with Ad Nauseum in FT, the question is whether or not FT's game plan and card selection is still relevant when confronted with Ad Nauseum and design imperatives that shift us into a more aggressive paradigm.

Well, considering the options, you can go one of two routes with FT:

1.) D-Day, a more controll-ish build that is slower but more resilient to discard, counterspells, and other disruption such as Mages and Teegs, CB (to a point), and Chalice,

OR

2.) Balls-to-the-Wall. Doesn't need resiliency to disruption as it expects to only see 1x FoW/Daze, one Duress/Seize/Hymn, or maybe a chant or Teeg/Mage.

There is no happy medium. There probably never will be.

I think it's time it split in two different directions, obviously the ones just stated. Two different threads. Just like there are 3 or more threshthreshthreshthreshthresh threads, there should be multiple FT threads. One of the main reasons I feel this way is because I think DDFT is specialized at a control-oriented metagame. A more aggressive list is for a field of aggro-ish builds. While you can play both in either format, they both obviously have their strengths and weaknesses.

This thread gets hijacked all the time because people fail to realize that no one's telling them (well, sometimes they are) to play one or the other because it's better, when in fact this isn't the case.

I think people overlook metagame calls all the time. This happens to be one of them. If I played against goblins all the time, I'd be MORE than happy to run the SW/IGG version simply because it's got an 80%-ish win turn 2. I don't though, and I see a bit of Thresh and DS. I have to play a more controlled build, or I would get SLAUGHTERED. Oh, and Ichorid. They have LotV and that sux. They also have Pithing Needle for Top, and that sux, but it's easier to deal with 4/12 of my "draw" spells being fucked with than it is to not have a graveyard when IGG is your main storm enabler.

Any thoughts on the idea of a second thread for more aggressive FT lists? It's really been getting on my nerves and I'm glad I finally had the opportunity of at least mentioning it.

Pce,

--DC

How many of us actually play and work with the deck, though? I mean, you, me, Bren, Breathweapon, Jahmino, emidln, and whit3_ghost? We as a group should be able to see what you (Dark Cynic) have said and debate it like civilized folk. Perhaps we could start by reposting 3 or 4 (a couple slow, a couple fast) builds and working on them from there? That along with a metagame description for when you should play each should be a very effective way to get this thread away from flaming each other and discussing each build's strengths and weaknesses.

Shall I start? I began with emidln's build a couple pages back and decided on a couple things: 1.)DDay>IT for the most part and 2.) That I wanted more accell. With this in mind, I tried out combinations of petal and c.rit increases and ended up with a manabase that looked like this:

4 LED
4 D. Rit
3 Petal
1 C. Rit
4 Strand
4 Delta
1 island
1 swamp
1 plains
1 sea
1 scrub
1 tundra
1 bayu
1 trop

For a total of 16 lands producing 4 colors and 12 accell that can mana-fix. I run the same cantrip base of:

4 brainstorm
4 SDT
4 Predict

and the same combo-enabler base of:

4 m. tutor
4 DDay

Then my protection package, which is a little lacking is:

4 Chant
3 Duress
1 K.Grip.

(then of course, there's the 2x draw4's and 1 tendrils and 1 IGG)

I've been debating the merrits of wipe away over K.grip and cutting the deck down to 3 colors, but honestly, the manabase is fine like this and I love siding up to 5 3cc split second counterbalance removers. The only chnge I would make to this deck would be to up the duress count to 4, but I'd have to cut a ponder to keep the manabase's balance that I like so much.

My SB has been a little up in the air, but I've been running:

3 K.grip
3 Serenity
1 extirpate
1 wipe
1 ET
1 R. River
1 HOA
1 GS
1 IT
1 IGG
1 slaughter pact

which handles many things very, very effectively.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

4 Strand
4 Delta
1 island
1 swamp
1 plains
1 sea
1 scrub
1 tundra
1 bayu
1 trop

For a total of 16 lands producing 4 colors and 12 accell that can mana-fix.

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Why not up land by one and down petal by also one? If this is because of Moon, your base contradicts yourself, since you run the minimum of 3 basics for who plays Serenity and an unnecessary dual, Bayou.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

I run the same cantrip base of:

4 brainstorm
4 SDT
4 Predict

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Predict? Are you sure it's not Ponder? Predict sucks so much for this deck, it's not even worth mentioning.

and the same combo-enabler base of:

4 m. tutor
4 DDay

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

Then my protection package, which is a little lacking is:

4 Chant
3 Duress
1 K.Grip.

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I'm on these very same numbers. I still got problems siding out some of these for some hate resiliency cards against non blue decks. How much of which should I take out, while keeping at least a single Chant for tutoring? Against which decks is it better to actually favor Chant in the place of Duress?

Against black decks, how far should I go to protect Doomsday from getting Extirpated? Siding out some against discard, while bringing in the 2 IGG, 1 IT package seems reasonable, but that seems a slower fish as far as graveyard hate is concerned. Recently, I lost 1-2 to survival because of double Therapy raping every game, Extirpate on Doomsday, surprise Chant SB tech and Faerie Macabre nulling my IGG possibilities. The 2 I lost were post SB ones, with all that fancy stuff.

Also, I have put IT back in the maindeck, since in those last games, I could've simply got mystical into it and won, as I had a big amount of accumulated acceleration in my hand and opponent wasn't able to disrupt my graveyard.

Finally, is anyone using a 5 ritual list (edited here) and still getting into situations that you must use Contract/Bargain, not Meditate, in a Doomsday pile?

Ok. My current build:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Mystical Tutor
2 Street Wraith
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Orim's Chant
4 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
1 Krosan Grip

3 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

Notes:
- 8 disruption, Duress over Thoughtseize because I never really want to take creatures.
- No BBB draw 4. I've found that playing 2 draw 4s clogs up too many hands and I've yet to run into a situation when I can't go off because I can't cast Meditate after Doomsday.
- 2 Street Wraith. These can be replaced by everything - Lim-Dul's Vault, Grim Tutor, Predict, Lat-Nam's Legacy, Burning Wish etc. They're serving their purpose against decks where speed matters and against discard.
- Maindeck Echoing Truth: This was Extirpate earlier. But main Extirpate only really serves against Landstill - against Threshold you never want to tutor for it. Echoing Truth is not dead against Aggro and Threshold while also providing me with an out against preboard Meddling Mages - Fish sees some play here.
- Volcanic Island. This has been just here for hardcasting Grapeshot postboard since I've cut Empty the Warrens. Might be replaced with another land.
- 3 Doomsday. I'll test four, but currently the deck is working with only 3.
- No Infernal Tutor. This was adressed some pages earlier.

Fixed Sideboard slots (10):

2 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
1 Rushing River
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Grapeshot
1 Slaughter Pact

3 Serenity (usually)
or
3 Ancient Grudge
or
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Reverent Silence

- Slaughter Pact is better than Massacre, I've written about this some pages earlier.
- Grapeshot > Brain Freeze because of Gaea's Blessing
- Ancient Grudge would require a Badlands in the main, most probably one has to cut Basic Plains for it. It's good against Needles and decks with not too many Stax pieces. Serenity is the overall better card though. Reverent Silence was an experiment I haven't tested enough yet.

Variable sideboard slots - current configuration (5):

1 Krosan Grip
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Extirpate

Alternatives:

2-3 Dark Confidant
1 Pyroclasm
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Rushing River
1 Empty the Warrens
1-2 Thoughtseize

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaiminho

Finally, is anyone still getting into situations that you must use Contract/Bargain, not Meditate, in a Doomsday pile?

---

Yeah, it happens to me a lot, and I run 4 Lotus Petal/Cabal Rituals. It's hard to get the U mana when you have to Orim's Chant, or at least that seems to be the cause. I just run Infernal Contract and SB Meditate ATM.

I agree IT belongs in the MD, LED just feels underwhelming with out it.

Edit: Since we're posting lists,

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Contract
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Doomsday
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lim Dul's Vault
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Wipe Away
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island

SB
1 Brain Freeze
1 Helm of Awakening
3 Wipe Away
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Abeyance
4 Leyline of the Void

Still not running Ponder or Duress/Thought Seize in favor of accelerating into either the Infernal Tutor or Doomsday win.

These are some of my current boarding plans:

Code:

---

UGw CB Thresh
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Lotus Petal
-2 Street Wraith
-1 Echoing Truth
-1 Ponder
-1 Mystical Tutor
+3 Krosan Grip
+1 Wipe Away
+1 Helm of Awakening
+1 Grapeshot
+1 Extirpate

UGb CB Thresh
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Lotus Petal
-2 Street Wraith
-1 Echoing Truth
-1 Ponder
+3 Krosan Grip
+1 Wipe Away
+2 Extirpate

Dreadstill (Ur or Ug -> no Meddling Mage/Extirpate)
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Lotus Petal
-2 Street Wraith
-1 Echoing Truth
-1 Ponder
+3 Krosan Grip
+1 Wipe Away
+2 Extirpate

UWb Landstill
-2 Street Wraith
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Lotus Petal
-1 Echoing Truth
-1 Krosan Grip
+2 Extirpate
+1 Helm of Awakening
+1 Grapeshot
+1 Slaughter Pact
+1 Wipe Away

RGb Aggro Loam (with Chalice)
-4 Orim's Chant
-1 Krosan Grip
-2 Street Wraith
+3 Serenity
+1 Rushing River
+1 Infernal Tutor
+1 Ill-Gotten Gains
+1 Extirpate

UGr Tempo Thresh
-2 Street Wraith
-1 Krosan Grip
+2 Extirpate
+1 Infernal Tutor

Goyf Sligh
-1 Orim's Chant
-1 Krosan Grip
+1 Infernal Tutor
+1 Ill-Gotten Gains

Eva Green
-1 Krosan Grip
-1 Doomsday
-2 Street Wraith
+1 Infernal Tutor
+1 Ill-Gotten Gains
+1 Helm of Awakening
+1 Grapeshot

---

@ Meditate: I'm confused. As I said, Meditate is my only draw 4 main. I've had an issue with it once: against Landstill I've played Meditate as a draw 4, then he was able to remove it with a Tormod's Crypt. But the mana requirements have never been difficult.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Yeah, it happens to me a lot, and I run 4 Lotus Petal/Cabal Rituals. It's hard to get the U mana when you have to Orim's Chant, or at least that seems to be the cause. I just run Infernal Contract and SB Meditate ATM.

I agree IT belongs in the MD, LED just feels underwhelming with out it.

---

Yes, on your list I can see this happening, often, as it happened to me when I used to ran more rituals. I was actually referring to the 5 rituals list. Edited up there.

LED has never been underwhelming without IT, unless I got a 2nd LED stuck in hand. I usually shuffle it away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brehn

These are my current boarding plans:

[things]

---

Up there you said this card wasn't worthy tutoring for against Thresh. Why SB it in? Lucky draw? It seems that the Ponder you are taking out seems much better than the Extirpate you are getting in.

What about siding out Petal? You are excluding the possibility of the 6 mana pile, as it becomes a 7.

I'm still not sure about the value of Extirpate in the Threshold matchup. emidln said it was good, but I'm finding it to be pretty conditional. The boarding plan against Thresh is currently just experimental with respect to that.

I side out Lotus Petal in matchups that don't come down to a race. FT vs. Tempo Thresh, e. g., is a race. Tempo Thresh tries to beat you down while disrupting you as well as possible, same goes for Eva Green. However, in the matchups against CB Thresh, Dreadstill and Landstill you're more aiming for a longer game, as their clock isn't as big and a resolved Balance that requires to be dealt with also delays the game. When you're finally able to go off, usually that single mana doesn't matter with this specific pile and you often have the possibility of just chosing a different pile as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Yeah, it happens to me a lot, and I run 4 Lotus Petal/Cabal Rituals. It's hard to get the U mana when you have to Orim's Chant, or at least that seems to be the cause. I just run Infernal Contract and SB Meditate ATM.

I agree IT belongs in the MD, LED just feels underwhelming with out it.

Edit: Since we're posting lists,

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Contract
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Doomsday
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lim Dul's Vault
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Wipe Away
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island

SB
1 Brain Freeze
1 Helm of Awakening
3 Wipe Away
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Abeyance
4 Leyline of the Void

Still not running Ponder or Duress/Thought Seize in favor of accelerating into either the Infernal Tutor or Doomsday win.

---

I was wondering why you included LDV over Mystical Tutor in your build. Also since you run 15 lands, how often do you mulligan?

LDV tutors for LED, stacks multiple cards and its CC is a lot better at tutoring for Wipe Away thru' Counterbalance. It's just the stronger card, and the mana cost and life loss aren't that important.

Edit: I don't mulligan that much with 15, it feels like more than enough with Brainstorm and Top.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brehn

I'm still not sure about the value of Extirpate in the Threshold matchup. emidln said it was good

---

It is good. It takes Force of Will or Counterbalance. That is, in fact, amazing.

Yeah, guys, I meant ponder. My bad.

My manabase isn't so much built to play around blood moon (although it does fairly well,) it was meant to color-fix better than the rest of the builds and work just a little faster. I've found that almost all the time it goldfishes on turn 2 or 3, fairly infrequently requiring turn 4 wins. I haven't found bayu really unnecessary, nor have I ever really desired it to be an island. With the 3 petals, I'd be more tempted to drop it for another underground sea, I think.

Brehn, just a note, but you side out SW in every match except goyf sligh, which is sort of the one matchup I'd think the lifeloss would hurt more than the speed would help. Would those slots be better spent as other cards, or are they worthwhile to have the free draw game 1?

Possible. As I said, Street Wraith accelerates the deck a little bit preboard, but is not necessary. If I had to replace them, I'd probably add the 4th Doomsday and either the 4th Mystical Tutor or a Lim-Dul's Vault.

While I agree that trying to fit Ad Nauseam into the current FT build doesn't work, I still think the card is a better engine card since it's basically 3BB: Win. Requires building a new combo deck or extensively reworking FT, but I think it's worth it. I'm not attempting to disfigure FT, simply throwing out my decklist which has elements of FT in it:

B/u/r AdN-T

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Badlands
1 [CST] Swamp (1)

// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [4E] Ad Nauseam
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [7E] Duress
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 4 [4E] Red Elemental Blast

Still needs work, especially the sideboard (I've yet to use the sideboard in testing). I have a thread in N&D for this, since I know this list isn't FT... I just wanted to point out that this is more the direction the deck would have to go if it wants to use Ad Nauseam.

I'm going to be cutting Cruel Bargain now, I just never use it anymore. What do you guys think, duress#4, petal #4, or cut a ponder and run IT+2IGG main?

Well, I did some testing last night strictly against burn (yah, burn o.O), and it turns out that losing half your life is horrible against it. I see it a bit, and since I've been losing to it quite a bit I decided to fix that. The only games I ever won I didn't use D-Day.

Here's what ended up working:

Land-17
8x Blue Fetches
1x Sea
1x Tundra
1x Scrub
1x Trop
1x Volcanic
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains

Accel.-11
4x D. Rit
4x LED
2x C. Rit
1x Petal

Tutors-5
3x M. tutor
1x LDV
1x IT

Draw-13
4x Brainstorm
4x SDT
4x Ponder
1x Meditate

Utility-9
4x Chant
3x Duress
1x K. Grip
1x Extirpate

Win-5
3x D-Day
1x IGG
1x Tendrils

SB-15
3x MM
2x Serenity
1x IGG
1x Reverent Silence
1x Rebuild
1x K. Grip
1x E. Truth
1x IT (?)
1x Grapeshot
1x Helm of Awakening
1x 'Pate
1x S. Pact

I don't know if I need another IT to do the IGG combo (well, I know I don't NEED one, but it could make it more consistant), thoughts on the matter? I know my board is missing quite a bit of bounce, and while it concerns me, I don't really know how to fix that.

The IGG kill is useful as all get-out against burn. My list was just too slow, turn 3 is when you want to win. Just be careful about giving them their stuff back; you will often be at 10 or less life at turn 3; on their best hands and if they went first, you can be DEAD on their turn 3. Burn is fast, and your life diminishes quickly. Doomsday is a bad way to win, especially if you don't have a chant, and the way my deck was playing before I changed it, if I had chant, I couldn't find D-Day (my deck has just been a BASTARD lately), and vice versa. I was having to use chants as timewalks while finding a kill, and then when I found it, I'd be out of chants, try to go off and lose.

I made the deck above, and while I still lose game one most of the time, I make the following changes for games 2 and 3:

-3 Doomsday
-1 Meditate
-1 Top
-1 Extirpate

+1 IGG
+1 Reverent Silence
+1 IT
+1 K. Grip
+1 Serenity
+1 E. Truth

The simple fact is that with a Pyrostatic Pillar out, you cannot combo off without fearing death. Pyrostatic Pillar will hit you 7 times if you combo off with ill-gotten gains JUST DURING YOUR COMBO. A turn 1 3-damage spell, turn 2 Pyrostatic Pillar. That's 17 damage if you try to go off the turn after Pillar is slapped down. That puts you in range of almost every burn spell they run. Not pretty. That's why I sideboard in that much hate.

I'm really not sure the IT is needed, but I want all 3 D-Days boarded out as they are dead cards in this matchup in my experience. Maybe you guys topdeck like pros and always have the chant + the win on turn 3, but I don't, and I need a way to win through a shitload of burn. IGG is the way that works for me.

Stuff I'm thinking about doing:

-1 pate, +1 Duress--I probably won't, but it's always at the back of my mind.

Ichorid is growing in my format and spring tide has begun to make an appearance. 'Pate is an answer for both.

SB:
-1 IT

+1 Wipe Away/R. River

I'd like my bounce back, but I don't see room other than in this slot, and then I'm only getting one back--which one is better? R. River definitely is better against Aggro-ish builds, wiping 2x Threats up off the table, which is awesome against Dragon Stompy and the like. EoT wipe up 3sphere and chalice, or if they go aggro-route right away, you can sling their threat AND their equipment up off the table if you are having a bad game.

Also with the IT/Bounce debate within my sideboard, is 1x IT enough for when I *need* to go IGG?

Also, with one IT maindeck, it leaves a small percentage of a chance to use IGG as a win-con without being in a D-Day pile if ever needed. IT-->IGG-->LED, LED, IT-->Tendrils. That's 5 spells from IT #1 to IT #2. You need 4 more for a lethal Tendrils. Top helps with this, too. When you don't need top to stay on the table for D-Day, it allows you to use M. Tutor as a blue, Instant-speed Demonic Tutor. That can speed you up in so many ways.

Anyway, in conclusion, my *extensive* testing has shown at least to me that burn not only can be, but is a relatively poor matchup for D-Day.

Pce,

--DC

Edit: -1 C. Rit is a definite possibility, I just put it in to try it out. I haven't had a lot of use out of it, it could possibly be a 4th Duress, 4th M. Tutor or 2nd LDV. Duress or M. Tutor are the top 2 candidates if it turns out it's presence is unwarranted.

Yeah, I don't know how you guys can play with so few IT, when it's not winning games against aggro it's tutoring for another Orim's Chant against aggro-control. Most of the lists in here struggle against Goyf Sligh, which seems totally counter intuitive for a combo deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

[maindeck list]

---

My last list (not the current) also had 2 Cabal Ritual and 3 Duress, but that seemed not good enough. I switched to 1 Cabal, 1 IT, 0 Contract and 4 Duress. Now, it's your list +1 Duress, +1 Mystical, +1 Doomsday, -1 LDV, -1 Pate, -1 Cabal. Infernal Tutor was proving not to be worthy until the last few days. I probably was doing something wrong before. Also, I'd like to note I'm goldfishing about 50% or more of turn 3 kills with the current list.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

I don't know if I need another IT to do the IGG combo (well, I know I don't NEED one, but it could make it more consistant), thoughts on the matter? I know my board is missing quite a bit of bounce, and while it concerns me, I don't really know how to fix that.

(...)

Also with the IT/Bounce debate within my sideboard, is 1x IT enough for when I *need* to go IGG?

---

When people began cutting ITs, I stated that 2 of that card was necessary for the 1 IGG kill, which requires 3 acceleration and 1 IT in hand (accel x3, IT, IGG, accel x2, IT, IT, Tendrils). Then, we started cutting Cabals too, which pretty much got that first part of 3 acceleration pretty difficult to get, much more than setting up a Doomsday kill. I don't think running 2 ITs is necessary with such a low acceleration count and a 2nd IGG is much better than a 2nd IT. If you are already recurring your opponent's cards back to his hand with your first IGG, a 2nd IGG will yield no difference in how he can use those cards against you, except for rare situations such as double W open and 2 creatures to get STPed, but only one STP in the graveyard.

Oh yeah, don't forget IT can begin the chain of a Doomsday pile with Meditate just like Ponder, except it costs 1 more mana and it's all black.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

I was having to use chants as timewalks while finding a kill, and then when I found it, I'd be out of chants, try to go off and lose.

---

In a regular Burn list, only Chain Lightning, creatures, Lava Spike and Rift Bolt (if they don't see Chant coming) will get stopped. Every other spell will be cast at the end of our turn, so timewalking them is pretty dependant on their hand, since they will save those for later and use instants instead. Given that the average burn kill turn is 5, you have 3 and a half turns to set up a kill for your 4th turn on the draw, not counting your Duresses, which slow them down pretty well. If you can't goldfish for a turn 4 with 1-2 pieces of protection regularly, you need to practice more, as, usually, the goldfish get's delayed by the high amount of protection you draw into, not by excess of cantrips while mana screwed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

The simple fact is that with a Pyrostatic Pillar out, you cannot combo off without fearing death. Pyrostatic Pillar will hit you 7 times if you combo off with ill-gotten gains JUST DURING YOUR COMBO. A turn 1 3-damage spell, turn 2 Pyrostatic Pillar. That's 17 damage if you try to go off the turn after Pillar is slapped down. That puts you in range of almost every burn spell they run. Not pretty. That's why I sideboard in that much hate.

---

If he got a Pillar on the board, you may want to try a two hit kill. Accel into a small storm, then Tendrils for 6 life. Find IGG, get that acceleration and Tendrils back for a 2nd shot for at least 8 life. If he isn't dead by then, he didn't hit you with burn, so your life is pretty high still.

Odd questions

1) Do you guys ever use Abeyance's "Draw a Card" after casting Doomsday just to draw into Infernal Contract with Lion's Eye Diamond on the stack?

2) Do you guys ever just hate Lim Dul's Vault or Mystical Tutor in this deck, and do you think the deck could just replace Lim Dul's Vault or Mystical Tutor with something else?

Quote:

---

1) Do you guys ever use Abeyance's "Draw a Card" after casting Doomsday just to draw into Infernal Contract with Lion's Eye Diamond on the stack?

---

I have to answer this with "no" since I don't play Abeyance. Note though that I play 2 Street Wraiths main and the situations that I use it as a post-Doomsday enabler are very scarce.

Quote:

---

2) Do you guys ever just hate Lim Dul's Vault

---

Yes. I've found LDV really crappy in "race" matchups. You deal damage to yourself, Tempo Thresh finally finds a use for its dead Spell Snare, often the "stacking" doesn't matter since you're just looking for one card, and often enough you're really just using as a Mystical Tutor. I've even found it to be bad against Landstill occasionally - first, UWb Landstill players are playing Spell Snare now, don't ask me why, second, the nice thing about Landstill is that it doesn't have a clock - yes, paying 4-6 life does hurt that; third, you ideally want to stack something like "Doomsday, Protection, X, X, X" - good luck finding Doomsday + protection in a quintuple of cards.

Quote:

---

or Mystical Tutor

---

I occasionally hate Mystical Tutor when it's showing up in multiples without cantrips to go by its side, it's as if it was "stealing my draw steps" then. But otherwise, I'd think Mystical Tutor is a defining card for this archetype, and part of why this deck is more consistant than TES. With TES you're playing 4-7 protection spells (Chant/Thoughtseize) and no way to tutor for them. You have to be lucky enough to draw/cantrip into them - go figure what happens if you need 2 of them and don't have your lucky day. In FT, Mystical Tutors serve as additional protection spells if you want them to. They're shuffle effects if you don't find a Fetchlands. They speed up your goldfish. They save your ass against Counterbalance, finding Wipe Away, Krosan Grip or just drawing a FoW. They save your ass against Meddling Mages on Doomsday, finding Wipe Away, Slaughter Pact, Infernal Tutor or just drawing a FoW. They're a great card to respond with to an opposing Chalice @ 1.

Quote:

---

and do you think the deck could just replace Lim Dul's Vault or Mystical Tutor with something else?

---

LDV - sure, replace it with Mystical Tutor :tongue:
Mystical - maybe it's possible. But I can't think of any decent replacement that would sustain the deck's consistency. Do you have anything in mind?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rsaunder

I'm going to be cutting Cruel Bargain now, I just never use it anymore. What do you guys think, duress#4, petal #4, or cut a ponder and run IT+2IGG main?

---

Duress #4. Eight protection is where it's at.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

1) Do you guys ever use Abeyance's "Draw a Card" after casting Doomsday just to draw into Infernal Contract with Lion's Eye Diamond on the stack?

---

I used to play Abeyance in my sideboard, but never sided it in, so I can't know. If you are using Abeyance to get the top card, it's better be already protected, since you don't want anyone countering it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

2) Do you guys ever just hate Lim Dul's Vault or Mystical Tutor in this deck, and do you think the deck could just replace Lim Dul's Vault or Mystical Tutor with something else?

---

Vault is way worse than Mystical Tutor. It's good to have it in your deck if you face too many Chalice decks, but I think that's it. Mystical may only bad in multiples, depending how fast you need the game to be.

Get me some Vampiric Tutors and I'll replace Mystical Tutor. Can't think of another card (but I never can and that's why I don't even try to build new decks).

I was considering running Night Whispers and just using raw cantripping power to churn thru' our deck, it's also got some interesting possibilities with Doomsday stacks, like Night Whispers into X and Ill Gotten Gains, cast Ill Gotten Gains and recur Night Whispers to draw into X and Tendrils of Agony.

Edit: Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions comes to mind too.

I'd definitely use M.Tutor over Lim Dul's Vault, I've found turn 1 M.Tutor for turn 2 Infernal Contract to be one of my bread and butter plays, tutoring for Lion's Eye Diamond just doesn't seem to come into play as much as I'd like it to.

Something just isn't meshing for me, I can't put my finger on it tho'.

Why in God's bloody name would you run any of those cards listed? You run 4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm AND 4 Top.

The only one of those I would consider is Night's Whisper in place of Cruel Bargain to make a stack like you mentioned, and then only as a 1-of, so that in rare cases where I have to, I could go off with all black mana without having to pay 1/2 my life.

Sleight of Hand/Serum Visions are both strictly worse than the 8 spells like them that you already run, and I can think of no way to fit them in anyway, even if they WERE decent...

Pce,

--DC

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

Why in God's bloody name would you run any of those cards listed? You run 4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm AND 4 Top.

The only one of those I would consider is Night's Whisper in place of Cruel Bargain to make a stack like you mentioned, and then only as a 1-of, so that in rare cases where I have to, I could go off with all black mana without having to pay 1/2 my life.

Sleight of Hand/Serum Visions are both strictly worse than the 8 spells like them that you already run, and I can think of no way to fit them in anyway, even if they WERE decent...

Pce,

--DC

---

Because there's a big difference between 8 cantrips and 12 cantrips when it comes to how fast the deck can reach Threshold and how far the deck can draw with out losing card advantage.

I'm kind of curious how FT runs after cutting M.Tutor and Top and just using 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder and 4 Serum Vision, but even with out cutting M.Tutor and Top it's not like the Duress and Street Wraiths slots are fixed.

I'm just experimenting, chill out.

Sorry if I came off as a revved up meth-head.

While it would reach thresh (Which isn't really a goal of the deck), I'm not sure it would as fast as you think. I almost always use basics over duals, and that slows down how fast I could play cantrips, as I grab 1/1/1 of plains, swamp, and Island. That lets me play one a turn. I also would NEVER cut M. Tutor OR top. The two in combination are essentially an instant-speed blue Demonic Tutor. That's way better than an additional 8x Cantrips.

Street Wraith, in my opinion, is better than those simply because it's free. While it doesn't count as storm, it replaces itself, and is therefore ok. Also, it's important to note that in the IGG builds, they win turn 2/3 very consistantly and therefore needs no threshold. The only card in the deck that needs thresh is C. Rit, and it's not necessary to gain thresh. It happens frequently anyway, and therefore has no reason to build it to where it does, as it happens already.

Even more importantly, you said drop M. Tutor and Top, and that's amazing. I can't fathom not being able to Pop a Fetch, grab Trop, and then M. Tutor for Grip in response to a turn 1 Chalice/3sphere. Or a turn 2 Chalice/Counterbalance. Also important, Top paired with Fetches = quasi-Brainstorming around a chalice/CB.

I understand you are just brainstorming, and I am just helping (or trying to). I'm throwing out reasons as to why this is a bad idea. I'm not calling you stupid, I'm just saying that this is a tight list, and as such, putting cards in it that are sub-par to the cards they are replacing would be a regression. These cards are all really well-tested. I'm getting to the point of saying no about cards that are not bad. They just aren't as good. When a deck can say no to a card that's as potentially good as AdN is, that's saying something.

It's my opinion that these cards are locked completely:
Land-17
8x Blue Fetches--Locked.
2x Sea--Locked.
1x Tundra--Locked.
1x Scrub--Locked.
1x Trop--Locked as long as K. Grip is in the list and/or sb.
2x Island--Locked.
1x Swamp--Locked.
1x Plains--Locked.

Accel.-11
4x D. Rit--Locked.
4x LED--Locked.
1x C. Rit
1x Petal--Locked. This is necessary at least as a 1 of.

Tutors-5
4x M. tutor--Locked.
1x LDV
1x IT--Soon to be locked.

Draw-13
4x Brainstorm--Locked.
4x SDT--Locked.
4x Ponder--Locked.
1x Meditate--Locked.

Utility-9
4x Chant--Locked.
3x Duress
1x K. Grip
1x Extirpate

Win-5
3x D-Day--Locked. Some people consider this locked in as a 4-of.
1x IGG--Locked. It's the only way I can win in some matches. Also good against control.
1x Tendrils--Locked.

That leaves 8 maindeck slots that aren't a lock, and I think that while K. Grip isn't locked, it is sub-locked as removal in some form, whether it be E. Truth, R. River or Wipe Away. So seven "open" slots. Also, some people believe that Duresses are a definite lock. I'm inclined to agree, but in the spirit of fairness they aren't as heavily tested as the rest of the deck. However, they have been great to me. I won't take them out unless they print something like "B: Duress effect, gain 2 life." Or "B: Duress effect, draw a card." Since that won't happen, I'm stuck with Duress. Oh well. It could be worse. I could have to pay 2 life just to get the option of discarding something irrelevant.

SB-15
3x MM--Soon to be Locked. It's been Godly.
2x Serenity--Locked.
1x IGG--Soon to be Locked. I miss it in some matchups.1x Reverent Silence
1x Rebuild--Locked.
1x K. Grip--Locked.
1x E. Truth--Locked.
1x RR
1x Grapeshot--Locked.
1x Helm of Awakening--Locked.
1x 'Pate--Locked.
1x S. Pact

This may not be accurate, as sideboards are absolutely highly volatile in that they are for metagames. I'm not sure of a metagame without FoW, though, which makes me think that Extirpate is locked. That's an awesome play. Chant, the force it, you 'Pate. This is DEVESTATING to them. And hilarious to you. The ole' bait n' switch. Helm+Grapeshot is locked for me. EtW is bad overall in a meta with so much permanent hate (read: EE/Deed/E. Truth/E. Decay). Which leads me to another lock, E. Truth. It beats Ichorid by itself, unless they are actually intelligent and go for the Ichorid beats path. Oh, wait, they can't, because you Extirpated them. Hehehe, good times. It's how I win every time I play Ichorid. EVERY. TIME. They try to goldfish game 1, you Chant the turn that they go off, making all their creatures 2/2s. Then, you go off. You should. It'll be turn 3 or later, unless they have the nutz, and if you don't, chant until you can. Duress also helps before they combo, as it *can* get rid of things like LED, Breakthrough, etc.

Anyway, I'll spare you the matchup analyses, but this is how I look at my deck. I have explanations for them all; they all fill certain roles, which is why the deck is as tight as it is. I wish we could use Vampiric Tutor...Oh well. Maybe I will casually. Lol.

Pce,

--DC

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

1x IGG--Locked. It's the only way I can win in some matches. Also good against control.

---

IGG sucks against control, because most control decks are blue. It's the number one card coming out of the deck when sideboarding against those. I don't want to need N + 1 protection in hand where N is the number of counters my opponent has. It's simply not good. It's never been.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

1x 'Pate--Locked.

---

I run a total of 0 Pates in my 75. They are a conditional Duress, which simply doesn't seem worth the shot. Duress + Pate on CB is another story, narrow enough (4 Duress + 1 Pate does not equal combo) for me to avoid thinking about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

Which leads me to another lock, E. Truth. It beats Ichorid by itself, unless they are actually intelligent and go for the Ichorid beats path. Oh, wait, they can't, because you Extirpated them. Hehehe, good times. It's how I win every time I play Ichorid. EVERY. TIME. They try to goldfish game 1, you Chant the turn that they go off, making all their creatures 2/2s. Then, you go off. You should. It'll be turn 3 or later, unless they have the nutz, and if you don't, chant until you can. Duress also helps before they combo, as it *can* get rid of things like LED, Breakthrough, etc.

---

Duress on turn 1 is golden against Ichorid. It's simply too good, unless they got lots of brokeness that we can't get rid of -- note: a single Breakthrough without a way to bin dredges isn't broken; neither is a lone LED. Ichorid can never beat us on the Ichorid beats plan by itself (as in no tokens), since it's too slow. Obviously, this probably doesn't happen, but in the few matches I had against Ichorid, I only needed to Chant to get them to be as slow as me or even slower.


Also, check your PMs, dude.

By control, I should have been clearer. I didn't mean blue. I meant control forms in discard and VCA (virtual card advantage).

I understand some people don't like Extirpate.

Ichorid beats never happens without tokens unless you somehow remove their bridges. Ichorid dies, X tokens are made. Next turn, they hit you with Ichorid + X zombies, gain X more Zombies and do it again. 2 Ichorids nets them X(2) zombies.

Math with 2 ichorid, 2 bridges in graveyard (they dredge to get bridges and food for ichorid)

first turn with Ichorid (turn 2) 6 damage, 4 Zombies.
turn 3: 14 damage, 4 more zombies, total of 8. That's 20 damage, guy.

Math with 1 Ichorid, 3 Bridges:
turn 2: 3 damage, 3 zombies
turn 3: 6 damage, 6 zombies
turn 4: 15 damage, 9 zombies. That's 24 damage. Mix a cabal therapy or 2 in there and they can rape your hand long enough to make it to turn 4.

3 Ichorid, 1 Bridge:
turn 2: 9 damage, 3 zombies.
turn 3: 15 damage, 6 zombies. That's 24 damage.

The math is normally always changing as dredging changes the numbers quite a lot throughout the course of a turn or 2, but you get the point.

Point: They can race.

Thought I'd just make the point.

Checked my PM's, I'm online now, and probably for at least another hour...hit me up.

Pce,

--DC

So.. I won yet another tournament with your deck emedln... Anyways, here is the report with a small amount of pre-tournament banter/whatever.

Anyways, I was talking with my teammate/close friend Micheal Scherer, who was playing BWG goodstuff, with board control, a living wish toolbox, and an option of gaining infinite life with a few irrelevant stuff.


Anyways, before the tournament he asks me what I am playing.

I tell him that I am playing FT, and he asks me why, and this is what I say:


1. Because I am the best player to ever come out of SD/I am so awesome.

2. FT is by far the best deck in the format

3. FT is by far the best deck in the format

4. It is one of the few decks nowadays that actually requires thought, and truely rewards good players for being good players.

5. FT is by far the best deck in the format


Anyways, on to the tourney report, and the suboptimal list I used therein.


First the list, because I like to start these little things off this way.

Anyways:


lands//16
1 volcanic island
1 scrubland
2 underground sea
2 tundra
1 island
1 swamp
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand


spells//44
1 grapeshot (terrible alt win, kills mage/teeg)
1 empty the warrens
1 tendrils of agony
1 ill-gotten gains
1 meditate
3 doomsday
2 infernal tutor


4 mystical tutor
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 sensei's divining top

3 thoughtseize
3 orim's chant
1 wipe away

4 lion's eye diamond
4 cabal ritual
4 dark ritual


sideboard//
4 dark confidant
3 serenity
1 disenchant (if I could find my grips/would have played a trop MD)
2 echoing truth
2 extirpate
2 pyroblast (surprisingly amazing for me in the past)
1 brainfreeze (becuz I am t3rri8l3 at life)



Anyways... On to the tournament report.


Round one: Against Adam Barmeilo (no joke, I asked him what his name was like 6 times) playing mono-green berserk/beatdown).


Game one he wins the die roll. He mulligans twice and asks if it is alright if I play first, I accept b/c:
1. I am a combo deck
2. I am a nice guy
3. My hand is a little mediocre w/ 2 chants, 1 thoughtseize, a top, a tutor, and lands... I keep and take the first turn top.


His turn, he goes land, llanwar elves, GO!
I have a joygasm, and stall him with a few chant effects (after he plays his pumps on the elves, to 'fog' him with the kicker.. I win after topping into a fantastical hand.

Game 2: He yet again elects to be on the draw (weird... he isn't that good and the deck is bad... no offense)... Anyways, IO thoughtseize turn 1 taking needle, then proceed to goldfish.

Boarded nothing

Record: 2:0; 1-0-0


Round two: Micheal Scherer w/ BWG goodstuff/infinite life/whatever else he has in there.


Game one: He won the die roll and elects to play first, he opens with a nomads en-cor... I play a ponder and pass, he plays a second turn daru-spiritualist (and plays starlit sanctum as his land), he is threatening to gain infinite life on his next turn, so I have to go for it, I play a mystical to go grab yet another D.Ritual, so my hand looks like:
3x dark ritual, 1 lion's eye diamond, 1 infernal tutor, lands/irrelevant

I combo this turn (obv.)

Game 2: He is mulliganing aggressively, going down to four cards, and opening with land go. I go for a first turn thoughtseize. I get an awesome hand over the next couple of turns via a turn two top, while he is stuck on two lands, and can only turn a nomad sideways.

I boarded absolutely nothing.

Record: 4:0; 2-0-0


Round 3: Thomas Scherer (Micheal's little brother) playing Uwr big fish.

Game one: I win the die roll and open with a ponder, go. He lays an island and passes. I play a thoughtseize, and he brainstorms in response, I then use this opportunity to cast a top, and pass. He plays a land and a jitte (no creature currently, I took mage w/ seize. He plays a land and plays an augary adept... I have the cards to combo, and he had to have drawn those off the top (didn't see them before, just the jitte)... So I figure that the second thoughtseize will be enought to ensure my win on the next turn, in fact it is, as I go for the igg-loop into the DDay-Stack for a shitton of lifeloss for him.

I board out ETW, b/c he always brings in explosives and clasms for his burn (not too bad I guess)... I board in the brainfreeze and my rebs... Anyways, I didn't see them anyways.

Game two: He opens with ponder on the go, and passes. I probe with a first turn sensei, as I have the second one, and he forces... I smile at my hymm to tourach for :1: .

He plays a mage on tendrils, and I tutor for grapeshot... I chant, it resolves, I grapeshot the mage after a few rituals, shoot the mage for 2 and him for two, he is now at like 15-18, and I have the infernal turor for a rediculous amount of storm.

Record: 6:0; 3-0-0


Round 4: Kevin Trombely, playing god knows what, had moldervine cloak/standstill/cabal therapy/nantuku cultivator, somehow was undefeated with a tie up until then.


Game 1: He opens with sea, go. I play land, pass (I have like 3 fetches in hand, and a brainstorm)... He goes for tropical island and a standstill (I am thinking landstill)... I play land go (opting not to play the brainstorm), I draw a land and decide that I should take the opportunity to build up my mana and hand, as he has no threats as of now... He misses his next two landdrops, and I have like 5 to his 2 lands, I break SS with brainstorm endstep, get rid of chaff, have dub chant, he discard moldervine cloak/loam/land (WTF?!@)... I have double chant and a thoughtseize, with the combo in hand. I win.


Game 2: He plays like 3 spells the entire game, being a SS (which he breaks and I draw 3 cards... kthnxbai), a cabal therapy, and a nantuku cultivator (I am in shock, as this deck seems soooo bad it is awesome)... Anyways, I combo and he dies.


Record: 8-0-0; 4-0-0


I went totally undefeated, but I played against a bunch of irrelevant newbies, so I guess it doesn't really matter much.


I have absolutely why this deck is not a DTB though, as for some reason I fear absolutely nothing with this deck. Sometimes, I actually hope to play the threshold player/s at my local (none this week, but we do have good decks being played, its' just that sometimes we have small scrubby turnout like this...) Just to have a challenge.


It is strange... I don't play this deck all the time, but whenever I do, I usually win the tournament, as the worst I have ever done was 3rd place.


This week was really disappointing though, as there were only like 13 people.

Whereas I am used to close to twenty (and occasionally more), with actual good players in attendance (Team funk/remnants of BHWW(haven't showed in quite some time)/Minorateam(ditto)/ random decent players from the source and also not).


Anyways, Emedln... I have decided that I hate you with a deep and fiery passion, b/c I will build and test decks, but when it comes time to actually play in a tournament nowadays, I just default on this deck and just win.


I guess I am strange, as I am never afraid of an opposing blue deck, as I always know that I am going to win (somehow), and for some reason, whenever I pick this deck up, I am simply undefeatable (even in the face of threshold decks... last time I played this, I beat two in the tournament 2-0, and they both resolves counterbalance/top).



Anyways, now that I am done rambling, perhaps someone can rip on the terrible out-dated list :laugh: .


EDIT: For some reason, I did not include any petals... /RTARD... who cares, I still win!