So since theres about a foot of snow on the ground I invite anyone for some playtesting today. My aim is mossivo1986. feel free to im me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
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So since theres about a foot of snow on the ground I invite anyone for some playtesting today. My aim is mossivo1986. feel free to im me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
I've personally never won a match with landstill aginst 43land. I've pulled out games mostly due to bad luck on their part (manascrew of some sort) and due to getting wasteland+crucible online before they could do anything about it alongside graveyard removal. That was back when I was still running furnace though it would still certainly work with relic (waste, remove. next turn, recur waste and remove). All in all, a matchup I'm glad i don't see much of.
yeah I agree, its too bad we dont have like an auto win in the sb like painters servent grindstone or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
whos going to gp chicago in march? We have to start talking about possible meta games and what not. Wheres taco snape and dif when I need them agh!!.
Anyways I have no idea what to expect.
some people are saying ichorid, but that doesn't make much sense to me at all with relic being soo good, but it does race TA and I think it can handle dreadstill as well.
Team America, Dreadstill, Thresh, Combo, Goyf Sligh, Goblins and Me playing Landstill.
I've been saying this everywhere: Ichorid will show up. It's easy to play and easily ported, which is important for a GP. Especially when it's in the midwest which is prime Vintage territory.
Also, I plan on attending.
Ok so with that said I think these will be present.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Dreadstill
TA
RDW "Ive been seeing it piloted alot in michigan lately"
Goblins. The last major tourney I played in there were countless goblins.
Also something tells me that Dstompy is going to be played pretty heavily.
also if your right, I need to play against ichorid. Something tells me its going to be not a fun ride.
It's one of those matchups that might be better served by taking a loss and getting food. Having a deed/EE@0 prevents combo shennagins (wasting your own mishra's is pretty tech if you play waste), but ichorids themselvs are a bitch. Play relic, try to take out 1 or 2, STP them, basically remove the ichorids. It's not a fun matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
The way I see this GP is build a sideboard that fights every bad match-up you can think of. We'll obviously need Graveyard, Combo, LD, and Burn/Aggro.
Ajani and Plague = Burn/Aggro
Runed Halo and Meddling Mage = Combo
LD = You have to be running Crucible because Team America will show up in force.
Relic = Graveyard Hate that Cantrips
Do we need BEB effects or can we just pray to god we don't face burn more than once on day 1? Start brainstorming people. We should all be running enough basics and eternal dragons to get out from under DS moon effects.
keep in mind that we can go x-2 so lets do some testing guys. Im me mossivo1986 on aimQuote:
Originally Posted by rockout
Okay, so are you guys thinking UW w/ wasteland+crucible, or perhaps something else? Green splash for Monestary+Grip+EE@3+LFtL? UWb sounds weak, for some reason.
I think burn's not gonna be huge, at least after round 3/4 since all of the scrubs will be dropping at that point. Besides, counterbalance wrecks them.
If I were running straight UW, I think I'd probably go 3xWaste+Crucible MB with a SB of:
4 BEB
2 Ajani
3 Meddling Mage
3 Runed Halo
3 Divert
That should be plenty nasty against red jank (zoo, gobbos, minimal burn), combo, and TA (divert is SVJ). The MB should be able to handle control variants.
Should Divert be Disrupt? It seems like Sinkhole would be the best target for Divert, and TA already can run on two lands, so it wouldn't be too huge to hit their land.
Disrupt seems like it would be useful in a lot more matchups also, countering more spells. It also gives you the cantrip effect even if they can pay for it which will put you farther ahead against aggro control like TA and stuff like burn.
I don't think Ichorid will be played in large numbers because Goblins should be out in force.
Landstill-esque decks will probably be floating around but the successful ones won't be regular builds because they're not versatile enough. Bardo's latest list looks like an excellent variant to bring to the GP because it doesn't have many terrible matchups. It looks like the best, versatile spells in Legacy thrown together in one deck. Control decks that don't savagely attack resources will be hard pressed to be relevant in a relatively wide open field. You would need to either be very generic and versatile across the board or just attack the mana so opponent's spells won't be able to be cast in the first place.
It should be safe to assume that Goblins, Threshold and various combo builds will form the majority of the GP metagame. Threshold is the most versatile and generally considered the best "control" deck in the format. Goblins is generally considered the best aggro deck. The new Elves lists could be strong and ANT will be played because of it's broken factor. While Landstill should beat these decks, the hard match-ups will be early on in the swiss where you face Burn, Goyf/Sligh and the like. If you're deck isn't versatile enough to get through the early matches, you could very well not even get to the good match-ups later on.
I think the real techy deck choices will be Magus of the Moon-based decks, like Painter and Dragon Stompy. They can just attack the mana and let you lose to your own deck construction. While they may not be objectively the strongest decks, they should fare well in a wide open field because they can largely ignore the idea of an unwinnable match-up due to the nature of their deck's primary goals. Mana superiority is better than card advantage and mana efficiency. If you can't cast your cards in the first place, who cares if you're playing great cards?
I would make my card choices based on these considerations. I think clunky, expensive cards will not be the best at the March GP. Ichorid should be blown out of the water in the early swiss and versatile, mana efficient decks with the above strategies in mind should come out on top at the end of the day.
As an aside, I don't expect Dreadstill to do well at the GP. I'm actually surprised it's done as well as it has. The deck is a two-for-one magnet. Dreadnought is trumped by E.E., Swords, Smother, Threads......fill in the blank and Factory is equally vulnerable to Pithing Needle, Wasteland, Back to Basics, Magus of the Moon, etc. I think Dreadstill is a niche deck that does well in a smaller, local setting, more akin to traditional Legacy tournaments. The GP shouldn't resemble that.
I'd probobly do it something like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
// Lands
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [B] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [B] Tundra
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Forest
4 [UNH] Island
1 [B] Savannah
// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Spells
2[6E] Enlightened Tutor
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
4 [OD] Standstill
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
2 [B] Wrath of God
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [TE] Humility
1 [chk] Sensei's devining top
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbear102
I dont know if disrupt is worth landstills time honestly. Spell snare fills disrupts slot pretty handily
Disrupt is counter unless they pay 1 mana. I'd rather run a blast effect or Divert over Disrupt. Divert changes a burn spell into a possible 2 for 1 for a singular blue mana. Divert also have the nice bluff effect similar to stifle where once your opponent sees it he'll have it in the back of his mind each turn when you leave one blue open.
All in all, I'd run Blue Elemental Blast. It's a counter and another targeted kill spell.
Very surprising indeed. It's only won two of the biggest tournaments so far this year, but why should you expect it to do well at this right? If your oponent is playing Shatter Dreadstill can never win...2 for 1'd all day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman82
hardy har har! I love the sarcasm.
Anyways uwb is the best choice for landstill both because of its resiliancy to stifle and wasteland and the ability to still mantain its control early enough in the game to stay in it.
The problem with the other versions 4 c 2 c ect, is their lack of window in the early game. you cant rely on having swords and force in every opening 7 so you need additional draw to get to these cards as well as your land drops ect. This is why Dif and others have preached ponder soo heavily. I wasn't a believer at first, but then again I didn't buy into dustbowl until the last tourney I played in where it basicly won me 3 matches "the mirror, dstompy, and ug tri." I urge you all to play ponder as it is amazing.
Also the wish board for pate and pulse make it win games more often then not. I'm sticking with uwb_wish_still and ill see you all in chicago :)
If people really start to pick up Team America in my area I think Teferi's Response would be the way to go. I live in a play in the Chicago metagame regularly, and have played Team America at least once in the last 3 tournaments that I've participated in, however I don't think it actually needs its own sideboard slot. I've been beating it pretty regularly with mediocre draws. It only has 8 threats in the deck, so the key is to nuke them as they come out, and their mana disruption will not get them there against a Landstill deck. Let them stifle your fetches and waste whatever the hell they want because we play extremely land heavy decks. STP the tombstalkers and let the Goyfs get mopped up by EE. The only time you should have to expend FOW or any permission should be to make sure your removal gets through. You NEED the STP on tombstalker to resolve, and the EE on goyf cannot be allowed to be stifled. i think if you guys try these approaches you'll have much more success against that deck.
I agree with you Chill. TA doesn't run enough threats and we run more than enough removal to deal. An obvious god draw of t1 thoughtseize, t2 sinkhole, t3 sinkhole/wasteland and drop tombstalker can make for tough times. But, most of the time it's not that bad to drop lands and answer the threats as they come.
Glad we're on the same page. For the GP I don't think I will really be changing my maindeck or SB at all, simply because I think I have found the correct amount of cards I want for any larger event. This is the same SB i ran when I top 8ed that legacy event at GP Indy, the one for like 40 duals or something if anyone remember that.
4 Meddling Mage
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
The Meddling Mages are by far my favorite card to bring in the SB. i bring them in against a variety of decks, namely loam decks, belcher, high tide, ANT, but also against team america or any deck I like to call BG poop. Naming pernicious deed or tombstalker is pretty good after they board out their removal.
The Red Elemental Blasts are RIDICULOUS. I know many of you are not playing Red, but if you are there is no better feeling than blasting a FOW with a one mana spell.
The Blue Elemental Blasts are also amazing against goblins, loam, belcher, and random sly decks.
The crypts are REALLY good in the mirror. They help to break crucible fights, kill loam decks, ichorid, stax.
I run Engineered Explosives in the main, but sometimes they need to be backed up by something that cannot be stifled, so the Nevi Disk does a good job of breaking through counterbalances and killing gofys and mongoose, but most of all the selling point on disk for me was the rise of Dragon Stompy. No better way to spend a billion red mana than to cast Disk. Also, I run Academy Ruins in my deck, so all the aforementioned artifacts are up for recycling.
What color Landstill are you running? Uwr? Post your list.
My general strategy against TA is to just keep their threats off the board. Post board, I just try and Extirpate one of their threats or I use Extirpates on Wasteland/Sinkhole early on so I can stabilize faster. I also board Runed Halos in against TA as well, just because it's more efficient than WoG.
and the fact that its amazing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
I can't see how TA wins pre board if you land humility. Runed halo on tombstalker has to be a sexy play as well.
This reasoning tends get obsoleted by the fact that the LS player will rarely get beyond 3 lands in play AND play around Daze and FOW to Force Humi through.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
TA will remain an unfavorable MU, unless we decide to add more hate to the SB.
Yes. Runed Halo does rock and running 4 in your SB will make this MU about even, probably - I'm still hesitant to cut my good ol' Mages for them however, not gonna happen, I think.
Interesting that you feel 3 land is the cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
My version with 4 Stp, 4 Vindicates, 3 EE and 2 WoG does very well with or without side against Team America. The deck runs very few threaths, and if you stop them on the first turns, you will win the game easily. All you need against TA is chep removal.
Anyone have any ideas on Merfolk and testing against Merfolk. It's a pretty good deck in Standard and Block so I have a feeling it will show up at the GP, maybe not in force as say Thresh/Combo, but to the point where I might see it once. Really efficient, Islandwalkers, and a similar counter suite to us with manlands and standstill with aether vial. Their man lands don't match up to ours unless they have a pumper out (lord of atlantis/rejeerey.) I run plague out of the board so it shouldn't be too tough of a matchup, but wanted to make sure I mention it to everyone here and get some chatter about the MU.
2? or 1? Merfolk deck(s) made it to the top 8 at the Beta Duals up in NY a few weeks ago.
Merlfolk as we spoke seems like one of those just pure bad matchups. theres virtually nothing I can think of you can do except for have plagues in your side or have a good matchup against them. The creatures are cheap enough that wrath doesnt matter. They have more counter magic then us and they have islandwalk, so even if we could block like thresh matchups it doesnt make a difference in this one. However with that said I dont think they can beat a challice set at 2 and I think they have autolosses more so then we do because of the current builds. I deffinately dont see how they beat aggro decks or any deck running a stax set up. Overall I wouldnt worry the chances we will face @ gp chicago.
This MU is one where the 4x Vindicate idea shines. I did lose to it at my last big event but it was more because I had an idiot moment and walked into a Stifle on a fetch that I could have avoided and 2x Dazes in the first three turns. Wrath really costs 5 against a deck packing Daze and this deck can keep you off 5 Mana for awhile. I can see how the UWg lists could have some trouble with it. Halo works great unless they Grip it or it gets Spell Snared. Personally I only board in Halo for game 3 if they get to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DuKeLiO
I'll be attending the Gp as well and I would expect to see alot of Blue Mana deniel decks all day long. Either Dreadstill, Team America or good old Tempo Thresh. I will be setting up my MD to crush these decks. They are easy decks to play and a good player unfamiliar to Legacy could easily do well with any of them. I'd also expect to see a large amount of Goblins, while the Combo decks will definetly be present I imagine more people will favor decks with alot more consistency. Once you get threw the first 5 or 6 rounds [assuming you are x-0] I'd be very surprised to run into any of the Combo or Loam decks. For the sake of as many rounds as this event is gonna be Goblins, Landstill, and Blue Mana Deniel decks are the strongest and most consistent in Legacy, when you start playing against other players capable of going x-0 I think you will see alot of them realize the importance of consistency in an event like this.
I disagree. Imo you don't want to fetch, if you even want to fetch early, for duals. Vindicates has tough manacosts for a deck that wants a blue mana first turn and maybe a second one at the second turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by konsultant
Giving them numerous targets for their Stifles can't be the correct plan.
To me Vindicate is the alternative for the Wish and not primarily another StP.
And I have stumbled across TA during some tournaments lately again and I can only repeat myself:
I have no problems against the deck if it doesn't draw infinite LD.
I kept a very risky hand of Polluted Delta as my only mana source and I was on the play, I did have 2x STP, Brainstorm and Fow with a FoF as a pitch card. I played the Delta and had to decide if I was more concerned about Stifle or Wasteland, I guessed against Stifle and passed the turn not wanting to fetch a basic or walk into Waste. I drew an irrelevent card for turn and decided to use the fetch to get an island to cast the Brainstorm, Stifle was cast and I responded with Fow whitch promptly got Dazed. It was situational and I made a guess that just turned out to be very wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by FredMaster
Against a creature based deck like this you can practically play the entire game without Blue mana, in fact I board out Counterspells in Favor of Crucible's. Atleast with the build I have I actually run a basic Swamp stopping Wasteland from denying me Black Mana. I do agree that Landstill should win this match up but Tombstalker can't be killed by EE whitch only leaves UWg builds with Wrath and STP to deal with them. Factor in thier discard and counter magic effects and IMHO the UWb builds running Vindicate have a signifigant advantage.
Warning: The following idea does not follow the same design as orthodox UWx Landstill. If you suggest that it's inferior for this reason and that I modify it so that it does, I will narrow my eyes at you.
So I've been thinking about Jace Beleren. It's sort of like a perpetual Standstill, in that as long as you can keep controlling the board, you keep drawing cards. And drawing cards helps you control the board, so that's a pretty sweet positive feedback loop. And unlike Standstill, if you don't have control of the board, it at least cantrips, and usually draws some damage away. Furthermore some decks, like control decks, don't play many creatures in the first place, which means Jace is very good against them. So Jace Beleren seems like a pretty powerful card. To maximize its effectiveness, you need to maximize your ability to control the board, which you can do with either creatures or removal. Removal is more of a sure thing, so I decided to go that route. White and black have the most and best playable removal, and once I have all that removal, I might as well play actual Standstills as well, so that leads me to a build of UWB Landstill.
The first draft looks like this:
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Jace Beleren
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Innocent Blood
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Vindicate
2 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Kor Haven
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 3 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 Humility
The italicized cards are variable, I will get to them in a moment.
A core assumption of this build is that the Legacy metagame these days is chock full of decks which rely on a small number of (usually large) creatures to win. Examples are Dreadstill, Team America, Threshold, Aggro Loam, Goyf Sligh, and Faerie Stompy (to an extent). This deck is aimed squarely at those decks. If your metagame is different, play a different deck. The plan, therefore, is to use lots of spot removal to clear away the few creatures on the board, and then draw lots of cards with Jace and Standstill, which you use to continue keeping the board clear.
Other stuff:
- Instead of Innocent Blood, you could use Diabolic or Chainer's Edict or Smother or whatever (not, unfortunately, Runed Halo, because it doesn't protect Jace), and instead of Elspeth, you could use any number of other win conditions. I went with this combination because I like Innocent Blood because it's one mana cheaper, because Elspeth is what appears to be the least expensive win condition and can act as pseudo-removal by chump blocking a creature perpetually, and because Planeswalkers are good against control decks so having six of them sounds like a fine idea.
- Wrath of God could also be Humility, Moat, The Abyss, or, I suppose, the fourth copies of Vindicate and Explosives. I'm really not sure what to use here. Basically, while most decks will only throw one creature at you at a time, some of them will throw a lot more, so while Wrath will sometimes just be a really expensive spot removal spell, sometimes it will save your ass. (I don't want many of them, though, because having large amounts of spot removal does reduce its effectiveness. It's a safety net, nothing more.)
- Kor Haven is a mana-producing land which can also act as removal. You want as much removal as possible. Therefore, Kor Haven.
- Academy Ruins is a distinct possibility, but I went with another colored land instead. Up to you. With the amount of removal in the deck, recurring Explosives is less valuable.
- Only 22 lands, because the curve is fairly low and you draw lots of cards. This build doesn't rely on building up a large number of lands and then recurring Dragons and proclaiming huge Decrees, like other builds do. Nonetheless, this assumption might be mistaken, and would have to be tested.
- Thoughtseize and Duress in the sideboard are against combo decks and control decks. I don't know of other cards which are as good against both. (Maybe Meddling Mage, but I've never had much luck with that card.)
EDIT -- Actually, six slots is enough for 3+3 Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top. So that's another option. I really wanted to put some Tops maindeck, like, say, three, but 15 slots for drawing cards seemed excessive.
EDIT again -- Countertop also stops Loam and burn (see below). Who knew? So you could also go minus everything except Humility, plus 7-8 Countertop, and then 4-5 cards of your choice, likely Duress in my case.
- Extirpate is there to keep Loam decks from Wastelocking you. I don't know of another card which can do this as effectively. (Although, perhaps, Pithing Needle -- I will have to think on that.) If you can deny them their draw engine as well, that's merely a bonus, because Jace can usually outrun them either way. If you can keep out of Wastelock and counter things like Dreams or Assault, you'll have no trouble killing their handful of huge dudes and then them. Extirpate is not in here against Ichorid, because Ichorid hasn't been extremely popular lately. If you expect it, by all means sideboard some Relics or Crypts.
- Circle of Protection: Red is against burn. Ajani or Pulse are also options.
- Humility is against decks with creatures which do things, such as Goblins, Elves, and Survival.
I would expect that getting "Planeswalker Flooded" might be a problem for this deck. 6 is a lot, and, as you said the deck draws a lot of cards. I bet that you'll end up holding extra planeswalkers which turn into dead cards fairly regularly. Maybe a 3/2, 2/2, or 3/1 split?
Why would extra Planeswalkers be dead cards? Granted, they suck if your opponent is dominating the board, but so does Standstill (as well as basically anything which isn't Balance or Wrath of God), yet most people play four. Jace at least cantrips in that situation and Elspeth stalls them. Multiple copies of Jace are just fine, because you can just remove the last counter from the first one and draw a card instead of adding two and both players drawing a card, and then play the second one and draw another card. Multiple copies of Elspeth are indeed useless if the first one lives, but with only two this shouldn't be a great concern. And I see no conflict between having one of each -- in fact, Elspeth gives you chump blockers while Jace supplies removal, so they help each other stick around.
Perhaps, I've gotten so used to keeping planeswalkers around almost indefinitely instead of killing them off. I suppose time and testing will tell.
I've played Jace decks multiple times, so I can actually speak to this from experience; and I never minded drawing multiples, because every time I got to activate the -1 twice in one turn, it felt like cheating.
I've been playing Jace in Landstill for a while now and have always found him incredible. He does the same job as Standstill, but allows you to actually play spells, and instead of sucking in the mirror, is about the best card you can drop.
And yeah, multiple Jaces are amazing.
I'm intrigued by this design. Wouldn't it fit better in UGB rather than UWB, though? Garruk is far better than Elspeth, in my opinion. Plus a draw engine that lets you cast spells makes Tarmogoyf better (and, occasionally, a 7/8).
Doing a more-or-less straight swap we get this:
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Jace Beleren
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Innocent Blood (questionable if you want Tarmogoyf. Maybe Ghastly Demise. Even in a Lackey-less meta you want some cheap stuff. Duh would be so cool.)
2 Putrefy
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Swamp
I have a list that runs Stifle/Wasteland and Tombstalkers in addition to Garruk and Shriekmaw to maximize the "aggressive Landstill" approach - I liked it, but it sucks against Dreadstill and TA. This one looks like it could fix the issue.
yay!1111Quote:
And yeah, multiple Jaces are amazing.
cause it was cheating?Quote:
because every time I got to activate the -1 twice in one turn, it felt like cheating.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Art...swalkers/week4Quote:
If two or more planeswalkers that share a subtype are in play, they're all put into their owners' graveyards as a state-based effect.
Illissius meant activate a 1-counter Jace (killing it), then play another and immediately activate that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeKo