[Deck] Zoo

@Artlee

You did read the context before you posted, right? Sligh doesn't care that Grim Lavamancer activations can't be countered, and it doesn't care that it turns its graveyard into additional burn in the midgame. Sligh cares about effeciency, and Grim Lavamancer is not effecient. I absolutely love Grim Lavamancer, and in a Zoo list, of course I'd run him. Sligh is a different animal.

20 lands:
12 fetch
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

23:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Loam Lion
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

16:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 lightning helix (better than chain lightning, in some matchups I just needed the life and instant speed is so much better)
2 POP (atm really the bomb)
4 mental misstep (you just can counter the GSZ and shit from others)
3 Path to Exile

1 xx (mostly random, I played a goblin buishwacker this tournament, if I got it it was really strong but idk about the random card)

this deck is very fast and can raise combo sometimes, control ain't a hard matchup (equipments I don't have a hard time against because control can't hold their creatures, I always burn those in stead of doing bolts and stuff on their life)

What I thought was a good matchup was Maverick, but I could almost do nothing against that deck..

Also against combo I think we should have a blue sideboard thingy, like spell pierces or something because I play mm main and then also spell pierce ( or also/snare) is really good because we can't do alot against combo...

@.. : The lynx aren't good enough, and I don't want to many land. The lynx akmost can't defend they are strong but die also very fast so I like kird ape/loam lion much more :)

Any questions I'll test some sideboard and mainboard now on cockatrice so if anyone wants to play add Xypes

Also the graveyard matchups are a pain because atm (my meta) they play alot of manaless dredge and also other decks play alot out of their graveyard so I was thinking the xx probably to play a scavenging ooze. And sideboard more graveyard hate because I expect it to see alot of play @GP Amsterdam...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BantFTW

What I thought was a good matchup was Maverick, but I could almost do nothing against that deck..

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I have the same problem, what's the plan to win against Maverick?

I really don't know, I was planning on just playing NOPRO in the sideboard because I can xD
That just wins from them^^, also other matchups could be better with it I think so why not...
It's only 5 sideboard slots...

EDIT: in my list the mm are quite good against many decks, but the problem is also the damage you take sometimes, maybe you can better play cahin lightning or go for chain lightning and rift bolts and more pop or something and play no mm, i don't know they were quite good against combo and stuff so^^

Maverick is a rough matchup. It does depend on their particular build: Mom vs no Mom, Mistep, etc... But it is definitely rough. I've been siding Retribution of the Meek and it has been good against a lot of stuff. Going to start recommending those as decent answers to a lot of problems: Knight, Progenitus, Sphinx, etc...

I'm also considering adding Pyroclasm. It's a little stranger add, but it seems like it could work against a lot of stuff. Elves, Dredge, the chaff in Maverick, etc... That one is untested, but an interesting idea.

My basic game plan against Maverick is to become the removal deck. That means loading up on Path/Swords, Retribution and all the burn I can find room for. Before, I would aggressively kill Nobles, like I generally do with NO RUG. Lately, though, I've been letting them live in favor of saving the removal for more important creatures like Mom. That seems to be working better.

@Bant - not to immediately discount Misstep, but I don't see how it is better in your build than Chain Lightning would be. In sligh Zoo, you tend to get in some early beats until an opposing Goyf or Knight clogs up the board, at which point burn steps in to finish the job. Misstep protects you from Swords/Path and other Missteps, but is that really worth giving up all that reach for?

Also if your meta is infested with manaless dredge, just board 4 Leylines and mull to it aggressively. AFAIK, they have literally no answer to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

The one-drop heavy, burn heavy lists are actually Sligh. Zoo and Sligh are fundamentally different.

Zoo attempts to overwhelm an opponent with creature beats, primarily using burn as removal. This is why those lists only run 7-8 burn spells, and run 20+ creatures. Zoo plans on doing the bulk of its damage via creature beats.

Sligh, on the other hand, only intends to use its creatures as more efficient burn spells. If a 3/3 Nacatl swings twice, thats 6 damage for 1 card and 1 mana. Once the creature plan goes to shit, and it will at some point, the deck switches to being a burn deck, and kills the opponent through inevitability. Sligh plans on doing alot more damage (to the dome) via burn spells than a Zoo list does.

When building a list that is on the borderline of Zoo and Sligh, it's important to keep the fundamentals of both strategies in mind. For example, you cannot have a one-drop heavy list with only a few burn spells and expect to do well.

Sligh is all about effeciency, which is why the Sligh list I posted doesn't run Tarmogoyf nor Grim Lavamancer. Sure, both of those guys are heavy duty damage dealers over the course of a game, but they are far less effecient at doing damage than the other creatures options.

Goyf cannot swing until turn 3 at the earliest, usually for only 3 damage.

Grim Lavamancer only does 1 damage a turn until you can start activating him, at which point he's 1 mana for 2 damage each time. So essentially, if you start activating him the turn after he comes into play, your paying RR for 2 damage, RRR for 4, RRRR for 6, etc. Compare that to Nacatl doing 6 for G, and you can see the efficiency difference.

The way I see it, the best approaches are the ones that commit fully to their strategy. If you're going to go a Fast Zoo/Sligh route, maximize efficiency. If you're going to go a Zoo/Big Zoo route, maximize power/cost, i.e Nacatl, Goyf, KoTR, etc.

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Hanni, I get what you're trying to say here, but I think your logic is a little flawed. First off, Zoo is a Sligh deck. There's no point in splitting hairs. The original Sligh deck ran about 25 creatures and 8-10 Burn spells. That's true of most Zoo builds as well, with some people opting for more Burn. Running 24 Burn spells is more like a Burn deck with a Naya splash for the better creature options.

On 'Goyf and Grim Lavamancer: They are both extremely efficient. They may be slower than some options, but efficient is their definition. In your reference to Wild Nacatl, you pointed out he's worth 6 damage after two swings. Goyf does the same thing, just a turn later, with the option of dealing double what Nacatl is capable of. Which would you rather have, Goyf or Ironclaw Orcs?

Grim Lavamancer is not the same as paying RRR for 4 damage, it's a Shock on a Stick every turn, assuming you fuel him properly. The Card Advantage outweighs the "hassle" of having to pay R every turn for 2 more damage you wouldn't have had otherwise. Sure, there are quicker spells (Lightning Bolt, Wild Nacatl for example), but efficiency isn't just measured by instantaneous performance. What else are you spending Red mana on by turn 3-4 anyway?

I understand the reasons to cut Lavamancer, especially if you're running 20+ burn spells. Cutting Goyf makes no sense to me if you're in green though. I'd cut Lynxes first, since you only listed 20 lands. I ran 1-drop Zoo at the GP with 25 creatures and "only" 10 or so burn spells and did just fine. I also ran Goyf and Grim Lavamancer.

Grim Lavamancer is good enough for Burn. It's good enough for me in Zoo.

mm is good because you can let them lose the tempo, like counter a turn 1 gsz and maybe they're a littlebit screwed to if you're lucky^^ so I really like it but not sure^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BantFTW

mm is good because you can let them lose the tempo, like counter a turn 1 gsz and maybe they're a littlebit screwed to if you're lucky^^ so I really like it but not sure^^

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True, but a T1 GSZ is only getting Dryad Arbor, which you can kill with burn.

I play Misstep in the board, only against combos. It's reasonable there. But I wouldn't bring it in against much else.

yeah your probably right but still most people do'nt expect it but yeah :)

I played Misstep in Junk Depths for awhile and even then it sometimes was a dead draw. In Zoo I don't think we can afford to have cards that are so purely reactive and narrow. I can see the value against Combo but otherwise I think it's better to just draw another threat than a random counterspell. The surprise value is fun though :confused:

Mindbreak trap is better against combo, I'm just willing to run anything but a counterspell in Naya zoo.

Red Elemental Blast is the best counterspell we could ask for.

Alright, how do you beat Aggro Loam with Zoo? Playing Cox' list with minor changes* I just lost against that deck in the top 8. It was all the more frustrating because this is now the second time in a row that I got knocked out in the first round of the top 8, playing against the same guy with more or less the same list, him with Aggro Loam and me with Zoo. I think discussing this match-up is of general relevance because this deck has made a few strong showings recently.

He plays it 4c (green, red, black, white) with Burning Wish (Perish, Loam, Devastating Dreams, etc. as targets); Tarmogoyf, Knight and Crusher as beaters; Dark Confidant; Vindicate and Dreams all main, also Maze of Ith and Stronghold as well as Fire/Grove. I think it might have been this exact list.
My observations are that usual graveyard hate like Crypt and Relic is not so good and that the only chance of winning is to go all-in, very aggressive, and try to burn him out in the end. Only problem with dropping all your apes into play is Devastating Dreams, which I think I'm going to have nightmares about since getting Dreamed twice in one game made me want to pick up my cards and just walk away, or alternatively punch my opponent, neither of which would've helped much.

So anyway, I reckon more Price of Progress and perhaps Surgical Extraction (significantly worse that Extirpate though, and even worse if opponent plays Wish) could help here. I think this match-up will never be favourable for Zoo, but I think we should discuss measures to make it at least a bit better.

*My list: Changes from Cox':
main: -1 Loam Lion, -2 Lightning Helix, +1 Path to Exile, +2 Price of Progress
side:
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

I've also switched to aggroloam (always played zoo) and playing a list with 4 bolts, 4 chains, 4 apes, 4 wild nacatl main, it is as fast as zoo and mid/lategame it's really much better :)

But how to beat it, I've once thought about playing NOPRO sideboard, that's how I beated aggroloam and also maverick, otherwise those matchups are so hard, and then you don't even have combo and stuff counted. So I would go something like NOPRO it just wins matches^^

Also could you give me a list of that deck, I would like to see it, ty!

BTW also against those decks try to kill their confidants and things with bolts and chains and hold your PTE for knight, I also played a scavenging ooze main, it rocks against alot of stuff these days because everything plays something graveyard... just saying.

ps: this list :O? (Or something like it :?)


4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Terravore
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Terminate
3 Punishing Fire
1 Putrefy
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond

1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Maze of Ith
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
3 Forgotten Cave
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
2 Bayou
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas

just a little trick i noticed :
path and goblin guide both give the opponent lands, but what are more lands useful for? Usually, the only thing fast zoo fears about giving the opponent land is playing 4 mana cc spells that wipe us out. So the answer, overload on the speed with gg, and maindeck 3x teeg so all those extra lands dont help em out much. Just took out my missteps for gg's and this is proving to be amazing.

just a little trick i noticed :
path and goblin guide both give the opponent lands, but what are more lands useful for? Usually, the only thing fast zoo fears about giving the opponent land is playing 4 mana cc spells that wipe us out. So the answer, overload on the speed with gg, and maindeck 3x teeg so all those extra lands dont help em out much. Just took out my missteps for gg's and this is proving to be amazing.

yeah, and mental misstep is banned too, maybe zoo is better now :)