[Deck] The Rock

I've been really torn by this question:

On the play, with this hand, what do you do?

Deathrite Shaman, Inquisition, Swamp, Forest, Liliana, Knight of the Reliquary, Abrupt Decay

What do we do here? Turn 1 Deathrite into possible Turn 2 Knight or Liliana? or do we lead with a Turn 1 Inquisition? For the sake of this argument, it doesn't matter if Inquisition is a Thoughtseise instead, and one of the basics can be a fetch - it is safe to assume a Deathrite activation on turn two.

So what do you do?

Shaman. If left unchecked, it will allow a soft lock, if not, your opponent either had to force him (you are on the play) or spend his first turn with a removal spell (and you have bob, goyf, and other equally good cards that you'd like to stay).
Of course, if I knew my opponent was playing combo or something like that I'd play the discard first.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyvith

I've been really torn by this question:

On the play, with this hand, what do you do?

Deathrite Shaman, Inquisition, Swamp, Forest, Liliana, Knight of the Reliquary, Abrupt Decay

What do we do here? Turn 1 Deathrite into possible Turn 2 Knight or Liliana? or do we lead with a Turn 1 Inquisition? For the sake of this argument, it doesn't matter if Inquisition is a Thoughtseise instead, and one of the basics can be a fetch - it is safe to assume a Deathrite activation on turn two.

So what do you do?

---

Unless you're playing against some sort of super fast combo like Belcher or SI, you drop the Deathrite first. If you rip a fetch land or if your opponent uses a fetch, then you can play either Liliana or Knight on T2. Even if you don't drop one of those on T2, you're still open to Inquisition + AD on T2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyvith

I've been really torn by this question:

On the play, with this hand, what do you do?

Deathrite Shaman, Inquisition, Swamp, Forest, Liliana, Knight of the Reliquary, Abrupt Decay

What do we do here? Turn 1 Deathrite into possible Turn 2 Knight or Liliana? or do we lead with a Turn 1 Inquisition? For the sake of this argument, it doesn't matter if Inquisition is a Thoughtseise instead, and one of the basics can be a fetch - it is safe to assume a Deathrite activation on turn two.

So what do you do?

---

Are you on the play? On the draw? Any knowledge of your opponent's deck?

My thought are: This hand is a keep on both the play and the draw.

If you have NO idea what you're playing against:

Play: Swamp, Thoughtseize.
Draw: Swamp, Deathrite Shaman.

If you know what you're playing against, but it doesn't matter (Maverick, etc)

On the play or draw:
Swamp, Deathrite.

If Miracles or combo:

If on the play:
Swamp, Thoughtseize.

If on the draw:
Swamp, Thoughtseize or Shaman (really depends).

-Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyvith

I've been really torn by this question:

On the play, with this hand, what do you do?

Deathrite Shaman, Inquisition, Swamp, Forest, Liliana, Knight of the Reliquary, Abrupt Decay

What do we do here? Turn 1 Deathrite into possible Turn 2 Knight or Liliana? or do we lead with a Turn 1 Inquisition? For the sake of this argument, it doesn't matter if Inquisition is a Thoughtseise instead, and one of the basics can be a fetch - it is safe to assume a Deathrite activation on turn two.

So what do you do?

---

Personally, I'd use Inquisition to see what I'm up against. I don't see a turn 2 Knight or Lilly unless you draw a fetch land. And putting a 3/3 Knight out so early is pseudo risky, hence I'd run with discard. Turn 2 would be decay or Shaman depending on what I draw and they play.


BTW Matt, I think Miracles, Esperblade, Maverick and RUG Delver need to be added to the matchup analysis, seeing as they are some of the most popular decks now. Also include Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay to the card choices.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZeinVoncy

Personally, I'd use Inquisition to see what I'm up against. I don't see a turn 2 Knight or Lilly unless you draw a fetch land. And putting a 3/3 Knight out so early is pseudo risky, hence I'd run with discard. Turn 2 would be decay or Shaman depending on what I draw and they play.


BTW Matt, I think Miracles, Esperblade, Maverick and RUG Delver need to be added to the matchup analysis, seeing as they are some of the most popular decks now. Also include Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay to the card choices.

---

That's definitely on my to-do list for when school's over :)

-Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyvith

I've been really torn by this question:

On the play, with this hand, what do you do?

Deathrite Shaman, Inquisition, Swamp, Forest, Liliana, Knight of the Reliquary, Abrupt Decay

What do we do here? Turn 1 Deathrite into possible Turn 2 Knight or Liliana? or do we lead with a Turn 1 Inquisition? For the sake of this argument, it doesn't matter if Inquisition is a Thoughtseise instead, and one of the basics can be a fetch - it is safe to assume a Deathrite activation on turn two.

So what do you do?

---

The discard spell, almost every time. Unless I knew what I was playing against, I prefer the information to the possible explosion of Lilly or kotr turn 2. I would also prefer dropping goyf/bob then anyway. Besdies there are few matches where t1 shaman is superior to t1 thoughtseize

http://manainfinito.com/coverage/lis...2012-noviembre

3rd Place at Mana-Infinito, some Spanish dude took my list (almost) to the near top of the tournament! Congrats!

-Matt

Matt, I'm a little twisted. I'm really curious about a lot of your card choices, because in testing, some of the cards you are advocating seemed so bad. I don't mean to call you out at all, but I'm wondering what you've been testing against, etc. Green Sun's doesn't seem like it has a home in this deck, nor Library. Can you share with me what your thought process is on each card? Specifically, when you want them and when you don't? Do you T1 Green Sun often or do you wait?

Much of this is explained in the article (which I'm hoping comes out tomorrow, but the person doing stuff on the site might be backlogged, so we'll see).

So let's break down Green Sun's Zenith. Now, I'll be honest, this is one of the newer additions to the deck and for the longest time, this deck did not have a consistency engine in it, and it worked fine without it. I agree 100% that this deck does not NEED Green Sun's to function, you're 100% right. This card, prior to Deathrite Shaman, was there for a few purposes.

1) "Virtually" having more copies of all your creatures. At the time, I was running 3 Goyf, 4 Knight, 4 Confidant, 2 Ooze, 1 Pridemage, 1 Tracker. Being able to search for more Knights, Goyfs, or the utility creatures had a real advantage in creature combat. Being able to have more Knights, or have "4" copies of Tracker was very good if you were needing to go into the combat step at some point and face resistance. What I'm trying to say is you increased your creature density by 3, but also did not dilute your threats. You do not need 4 Ooze, but 1-2 with tutorability is much more sound.

2) Acceleration. This is the worst reason to have the card, but I was already running Dryad Arbor when I ran 2 GSZ, so when I upped it to three, this improved the chances I would GSZ on 0 on Turn 1. This hasn't happened much as of late due to Deathrite Shaman, who is usually the turn 1 or turn 2 play.

GSZ belongs, in my opinion, because it acts as threat selection. Have three more removal or Planeswalkers would be fine as well. But, I like having the ability to play more Knights or certain utility creatures. I talk in the article about why Blue is so favoured in Legacy: card draw and card selection. Green Sun's Zenith acts as a piece of selection. It's not card advantage, since I'm trading a card for another card, but I am getting a card I'm looking for versus one I may not be at the time. My thoughts are that if you're adding card selection to a non-blue deck, you are increasing your odds of beating that blue deck, since your threats are better than theirs, you just need to find them.

Now, have their been situations where GSZ sat in my hand while I did other stuff? Sure, this has happened many times since we have so many answers, we can't play them all at the same time. But, GSZ has allowed me to fetch for Deathrite Shamans, Oozes, Trackers, Teegs, Goyfs, Knights, etc. at the right time when I needed them. I've been blown out by Spell Pierce before, but you can't play around everything.

Now let us break down Sylvan Library. First, I'd like to know WHY people do not think it does not fit into this deck. Now, the card says to draw extra cards and to put some back. Even if you NEVER draw extra cards, being able to manipulate and selection from a choice of three cards the card you will draw for the turn, that's better than what we have already. Again, we are a deck full of answers, the real conundrum is, do we have the right answer for the threat at hand? Sylvan Library helps this filtering process.

But, you can also draw extra cards. Where does this mean anything? In the RUG Matchup, you mostly use the look, but you usually do not take unless you have to. In Maverick, you gain advantage by seeing more removal or threats and you will draw some extra cards to get ahead on board, since they do not have any large sweepers you have to play around. In this match, you have some life to work with. Where this really shines, however, is the blue matchups, more specifically, more controlling matchups. You are attempting to keep up with Top, Brainstorm, and maybe Ponder. Digging down extra cards doesn't matter here since they have no clock. You can challenge Brainstorm by taking 8 and casting a "free" Ancestral Recall. Swords to Plowshares on most of your guys means you can draw an extra card off the life given to you, further digging into more threats or answers. Without it, you are in topdeck mode whereas they're finding their control bombs to destroy you.

If you're ever been in topdeck mode versus blue control, even with some hand left, you know this is a miserable experience. Being able to hang on in a control matchp is huge, or, you can get ahead and just roll over them with YOUR superior card advantage, instead of the other way around. Last night in a postboard game I played Sylvan Library and took 16 damage, but blew him out with hand disruption, Gaddock Teeg, Knight, Goyf, and Abrupt Decay. If I had not had that Sylvan, I may have been too slow to assemble that set of cards together to disrupt them sufficiently so I could win.



------


Both of these cards add the element of card selection to the Junk deck. Drawing more threats that you want to see is a good thing being this deck. You can easily run without them, I just find the consistency from these cards to be very powerful.

-Matt

Fair enough. Even barring the argument of card selection and possible advantage, there is something to be said of preference. I could never, say, pick up a storm deck and pilot it fully enough since it is not my preferred style of play; even in this archetype, there are differences of taste. I've found myself content with a mostly quadlazer style, and I like the instant-speed effect of Top.

tl;dr, I really don't think there is a wrong way to build junk right now, so long as you include STP, Deathrite and Abrupt Decay. Even the SFM/Lingering Souls build discussed a page or so back is completely valid, imo; one not always needs to run Goyfs and Knight as they beaters.

I think this is a new era for the Rock. Might as well experiment with the variables to see what possible new interactions we can find.

I've been waiting hours for someone to post so I could post again.

Thanks.

-Matt

Well i haven't played legacy for months now, but (slightly offtopic) i'm playing Doran french EDH deck which is trying to be as junk as possible. All i can say, Library is amazing there.
I know that format has 30 lifepoints and there are no horribly fast aggro and combo decks there like in legacy.
Still a great feeling when you shuffle every other turn and pay life for more threats/disruption, only to troll your opponent who fails to Brainstorm/Jacestorm into answers or shufflers:laugh:

What do we think about the 24th land? Is risk of flooding worth not being manascrewed?

if you are playing up to 4 deathrite shamans the 24th land will not be necessary IMO, but if you fear getting manascrewed and are not sure if the 24th land will get u flooded, why not using a man-land like treetop village, nantuko monastery or whatever you prefer. treetop village obviously comes with the downside of coming into play tapped but does not bother with the sice of your grave (if game 2 and 3 the opponent wants to use gravehate against your knights).
I for my part would still prefer nantuko monastery, simply because it is bigger and has firststrike which is more usefull than trample IMO

But out there are a lot of man-lands, or utility lands that could serve you better than these two.

I played the 24th land forever. I think if you cut Dryad Arbor and/or Maze and replace them with real lands, then 23 should still be fine. However, like I said, I ran the 24th land and was comfortable with it until I cut it for something a while back. With 23 lands and 8 draw effects, I already do see enough land MOST of the time, however, there's obviously times I have been manascrewed. With Deathrite Shaman, now less so.

-Matt

My only losses at Baltimore were to mana screw. I think that if I had piloted the list I have now, I would have been more successful.

The automatic "4" of ...

We see it all the time, auto 4 StP or Bob and now I'm seeing it a lot with Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. I know the thought is "it's a great card and you want to maximize your chances to draw it". I can't argue with that logic but I wanted to present an alternative and see what the community thinks.

I feel like we have so many manipulators to get the cards we need between GSZ, Bob, Top or Sylvan, as well as fetch lands to thin and shuffle, that it isn’t definitely necessary to play 4 of anything.

Generally speaking you’ll go maybe 30 cards into a game with most games ending far sooner, so do I really need that 4th Bob or Shaman buried deep in my deck? Or would more variety in the deck offer up more answers against your opponent and make you far less predicable? Especially creature wise where GSZ offers the ability to grab what is needed at any given time.

I could get into the math but I'll simply say that the difference in odds of getting a card played in 4 as opposed to 3 is 1 or 2% once we factor in the manipulators.
I’d argue that outside of KotR and Fetch lands, there is not another card that Junk should always play as a 4 of (ok maybe SotP).

Curious what you guys think?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dballard

The automatic "4" of ...

We see it all the time, auto 4 StP or Bob and now I'm seeing it a lot with Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. I know the thought is "it's a great card and you want to maximize your chances to draw it". I can't argue with that logic but I wanted to present an alternative and see what the community thinks.

I feel like we have so many manipulators to get the cards we need between GSZ, Bob, Top or Sylvan, as well as fetch lands to thin and shuffle, that it isn’t definitely necessary to play 4 of anything.

Generally speaking you’ll go maybe 30 cards into a game with most games ending far sooner, so do I really need that 4th Bob or Shaman buried deep in my deck? Or would more variety in the deck offer up more answers against your opponent and make you far less predicable? Especially creature wise where GSZ offers the ability to grab what is needed at any given time.

I could get into the math but I'll simply say that the difference in odds of getting a card played in 4 as opposed to 3 is 1 or 2% once we factor in the manipulators.
I’d argue that outside of KotR and Fetch lands, there is not another card that Junk should always play as a 4 of (ok maybe SotP).

Curious what you guys think?

---

I can get behind the stance of you don't NEED 4 of any card.

I also will go ahead and say that Abrupt Decay has been far more valuable to me than STP. I actually run 4 AD and 2 STP and 1 Maelstrom pulse. The ability to hit artifacts/enchantments is generally far more valuable than the extra mana. Plus when the creature hits the graveyard it becomes deathrite/Ooze fodder which helps me more than removal from game most of the time. If BG had any great 3 drop creatures white wouldn't even really be necessary.

Consider Goblins the most quoted reason for why 1cc removal is needed. STP can stop the lackey, but AD can stop the vial.

My only problem is I can't decide between Rock, Bant, or Bug. All 3 are very similar and quite fun. Plus I am having stupid amounts of success with all 3 now.

PS: What site is Matt's article going to be on again? I look forward to reading it.

Eternal Central I think it was, assuming he'll link us up once the article is posted. Looking forward to that read as well.