[Deck] Dredge

been having a lot of fun with the following build:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Mana Confluence
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Street Wraith
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return


SB
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Life from the Loam
1 Bayou
1 Mana Confluence
2 Nature's Claim
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

When I transform I'm aiming for the long game so I cut the artifacts, breakthroughs, 1 ichorid, and then trim accordingly. Loam has really surprised me when this deck wants to go the long game. I've only used in causal serious room on modo so far (as casual leagues are down for now) but I'm 18-3.

Recommend trying as the deck is already pretty comfortable vs fast decks game 1 b/c of the petals. After transforming you are still the dredge deck but can also attack from additional angles. I've even gotta to use coliseum vs a miracle player to screw them over when they had no cards in hand. Hardcasting grave troll is a real thing sometimes!

I think this is the build that I'll be using for the next reasonable amount of time so I'll update accordingly when I bring it to paper tourneys.

-Rob

^ Interesting. I've muddled with the idea of a BUG sb in my head, but I couldn't come up with a way to make space for all the cards to justify the transformation without warping my main deck to accommodate it. I think I would want fetchlands though.

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Also Congrats to Keane Frady for the Top 8 at the SCG Classic in TX. If you're on the boards I wanted to ask. How many times throughout the day did you get to DR Griselbrand Game 1?

i've thought about using the non-rainbow lands but i think it requires the deck to go in a different direction. needing lands that can cast looting + careful study + providing black mana is just to risky without having a lot of redundancy. loam does help with that risk of milling the lands that you plan on fetching, but i think overall can lead to some more risky plays. it also opens you up to stifle.

i'd recommend just giving it a whirl. it's fun if nothing else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Que

....At this point in time I'm not a fan of completely cutting out all LED or Breakthrough in post board games, because those are some of our most powerful cards. There are arguments for both keeping and cutting them, but whether its correct to do one or the other is subjective imo. They'll obviously be bad when your opponent drops RIP or Cage, but they'll be amazing when they don't.

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Agree with your words Que, I just wanna highlight this above.
I've had many postboard games where I've chosen raw speed over sideboard answers. Being able to combo out via B-thru/LED/Looting on T1, and create some zombies has often been enough for me to snare the win on many occasions. Therapy can be a beast.
Obviously this is very matchup dependant, I would usually go with a more answer-conscious sideboard strategy against decks running answers like Terminus etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

i've thought about using the non-rainbow lands but i think it requires the deck to go in a different direction. needing lands that can cast looting + careful study + providing black mana is just to risky without having a lot of redundancy. loam does help with that risk of milling the lands that you plan on fetching, but i think overall can lead to some more risky plays. it also opens you up to stifle.

i'd recommend just giving it a whirl. it's fun if nothing else.

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Playing with Loam & DRS? Looks interesting. Not something I've tried before. How have you fared with this?

I also think I'd want to play with some more traditional lands to grab, maybe even a Glacial Chasm to grab too for some matchups.
I've tried playing with Life from the Loam in a few different casual decks with a single Raven's Crime for a way to continually attack an opponents hand. I've not tried it here in LED-dredge though.

in 2 man events:

Miracles
2-0

12 post
2-1

storm
2-0


in casual:

sneak and show (clashed on thesource)
1-2

4 color delver
2-1

miracles
1-2

RB casual pox thing
2-0

miracles
2-0

enchantress
2-1

him t1 deathrite shaman on play then lose into game 2 rage quit (dunno what he was on)

sneak and show
2-1

shardless
2-1

maverick
2-1 (went back to combo game 3 and turn 1'd him on the play)

eldrazi
0-2

painter
1-2

4c delver
2-1

infect
2-1

eldrazi
1-0 then he rage quit

shardless
2-0

ur delver
2-0

burn
2-0

spanish inquisition
1-0 then he rage quit

shardless
2-0

shardless
2-1

goblins
2-1 (but he made a few mistakes)

eldrazi
0-2


notable record

4-0 vs shardless
2-0 vs 4 color delver

overall record (subtracting the rage quits, the goblin player, and the pox player)


16-5 (losses 2 to eldrazi, 1 to sneak and show, 1 to miracles, and 1 to painter)

i've uploaded some vids on youtube.

first link is the first 2 matches of 2 man events (the 3rd match i stick to the mainboard, so i don't think there's much new content in that match)

the second video is a game 2 (i won game 1) vs a shardless deck.

https://youtu.be/dxzZlOHdO-s
https://youtu.be/PQEThvbIN78

maybe i'll do some streaming with the deck if anyone is interested.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slave

Obviously this is very matchup dependant, I would usually go with a more answer-conscious sideboard strategy against decks running answers like Terminus etc.

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I'm still going to jam LED and Breakthrough in those matchups though while having answers. That is kind of my point.

Hands I will keep post board games will either be hands with answers or the usual (Land, Dredger, Outlet, preferably more draw spells) regardless of whether I have an answer at that point. If they don't have it then I win and if they do then I can start looking for those answers I boarded in. The good thing will be that -assuming you find an abrupt within a reasonable time frame- you'll be able to clear the grave hate and still remain explosive, because of sand bagged LEDs and breakthroughs.

If they don't have it and you opened a hand with answers at least your answer is Abrupt Decay which can hit other things outside of Grave hate like Goyf, delver, Young Pyro, etc.. which alleviates a lot of pressure unlike a Nature's Claim that will rot in your hand; plus the whole Abrupt being uncounterable thing.

little update as i've been playing more 2 man events (little more relevant than casual room, but still competition is not the best)

in 2 man events:

Miracles
2-0

12 post
2-1 (speed)

storm
2-0 (speed)

enchantress
2-0

death and taxes
2-0 (but he wasn't using StP on my upkeep/draw step, which was odd)

jeskai stoneblade
1-2 (his draw was very good game 3, can post vid and i whiffed on narco #3 and ichorid #1)

https://recordings.join.me/TL46X4f60EiTDVLRdbPSxw

all in red
2-1 (speed)

infect
2-1 (speed)

LED dredge
2-1 (speed)

UR Delver
2-1 (game 2 i had to mull to oblivion, speed)

the (speed) matches is where i went for the regular plan with breakthrough and artifact mana. i also went up to a third loam in the sb over 1 of the nature's claims. they seem to be better than the deathrite with this plan, but 4 deathrite is nice with ichorid anyway.

I've been noticing a trend away from permanent based hate lately. RiP, Cage, Priest. Surgical is everywhere. And I've been disappointed in running anti hate for things they don't have and potentially losing to what they do. So, for the last little while I've been working on a new plan. Took it to my first tournament today and went 5-2. Lost to Miracles due to him blind ripping his 2nd Top with Top, Mentor, and 3 lands, and zero cards in hand. Then to my having all 4 Narcomoeba in the last 8 cards of my library. Then lost to Aggro Loam. G2 he had Leyline and I couldn't answer it. G3 my opener on the play was LED, LED, Bthrough, Mine, Coliseum, Troll, Chain. He opened with 2 Leylines. My other matches weren't even close.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam
2 Putrid Imp

4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass

2 Lotus Petal
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
2 Firestorm
1 Ashen Rider
4 Force of Will
1 Memory's Journey
2 Chain of Vapor

Amalgam is a fine addition. Not as good as Ichorid, but he does have some other advantages. Better vs Miracles. Makes it really hard to get value from Terminus since Ichorid dies before they return. Really good vs Surgical simply through diversification of threat. Especially vs decks like Grixis, which only has Surgical, and now I have a threat they can't trade tokens with. And obviously makes Dread better. Main thing is, well, he's Blue.

He's the first time the LED version has have enough Blue cards they actually wanted to run to make Force viable. The plan is pretty simple. You don't really need much vs Surgical now. If they run Deathrite you bring Fstorm. Otherwise the Journey plus Dread should be enough. Vs non interactive decks you just go for the Petal plan on the play. On the draw, or vs interactive decks you bring in Force and Chain. It's a bit weak vs Cage, but that's not much of an issue right now. Best part is stuff like Reanimator and Belcher you now have a whole new life against. And much like in Manalaless you have plenty of cards you don't care about pitching. Main thing is, I've found you really don't have a problem keeping LED with Force since you can pretty much sit on one or the other if there's danger. And you don't need to worry about having the wrong answer to hate, unless it's Macabre or Leyline. And Macabre is pretty easy to play around.

If you don't expect other GY decks, the Journey can probably be the 3rd Amalgam. And I'm going to find room for the 3rd Chain. 8 of the top 16 decks were running Leyline for some God forsaken reason. But I was very happy otherwise. Beat 2 Eldrazi today even so. Had a DnT player drop T2 RiP, T3 Priest, and died on turn 3. Forced both of them. I've found Force is at its best on the draw. When you can Loot into it, or the card you want to pitch. Which again goes back to the Cage problem. You can always Chain with Force backup later. And, of course, you can always just protect your draw spells with it if needs be.

I don't have another tournament for a month, or I probably wouldn't post this. But I figured what the hell. Have fun with it. It takes a while to learn how to reevaluate your openers but it's worth it. To bring in just Force, I usually cut 2 PIMP and 2 Ichorid. Cut 2 LED if bringing in Chain as well. Usually on the draw. Rest is pretty standard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Parcher

2 Prized Amalgam

(SIDE)
4 Force of Will
1 Memory's Journey
2 Chain of Vapor

Amalgam is a fine addition. Not as good as Ichorid, but he does have some other advantages. Better vs Miracles.
....
Main thing is, well, he's Blue.

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Last time I took Dredge out for a night on the town it was Blue Manaless, running 4x Force of Will & 4x Prized Amalgam in the main.
I've run Force in Manaless with the dread return targets Whirlpool Rider or Whirlpool Drake for different reasons, for ~ two years.
I really like PA in Manaless, the card has genuine power, and I feel it's made the Force inclusion much stronger.
I also found that Manaless running PA, gave Miracles an arse-kicking. :wink: See the Manaless thread for my recent result. :tongue:


Here in LED-land I'm not sure. I want it to work, I've been doing some testing since PA came out but I've not tried it out in the wild yet.
The thing I keep coming back to;
Force demands at least 16 blue cards to have any sort of consistency, our maindeck doesn't have that unless PA and Force both feature.
I could see a grindier version where I dropped P.Imp/Wraith for PA for sure, but if I was going to do that I would want to try and fit in at least a couple of Force in the main.
My reason is simple;
What I take out of using Force in Manaless more than anything else, is that an opponent who knows your deck has Force, tends play with more care, sometimes slower. When I first started playing with Force in Manaless I got all sorts of surprised looks and blow-outs in play, but now the experienced guys almost expect me to play it, and play out their hate deliberately with counter back-up, or aim discard at me first.
With a fast deck like LED-dredge, this might effectively buy us more time. Could be interesting...

I think I'll have to test a Force version of LED this week.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slave

Last time I took Dredge out for a night on the town it was Blue Manaless, running 4x Force of Will & 4x Prized Amalgam in the main.
I've run Force in Manaless with the dread return targets Whirlpool Rider or Whirlpool Drake for different reasons, for ~ two years.
I really like PA in Manaless, the card has genuine power, and I feel it's made the Force inclusion much stronger.
I also found that Manaless running PA, gave Miracles an arse-kicking. :wink: See the Manaless thread for my recent result. :tongue:


Here in LED-land I'm not sure. I want it to work, I've been doing some testing since PA came out but I've not tried it out in the wild yet.
The thing I keep coming back to;
Force demands at least 16 blue cards to have any sort of consistency, our maindeck doesn't have that unless PA and Force both feature.
I could see a grindier version where I dropped P.Imp/Wraith for PA for sure, but if I was going to do that I would want to try and fit in at least a couple of Force in the main.
My reason is simple;
What I take out of using Force in Manaless more than anything else, is that an opponent who knows your deck has Force, tends play with more care, sometimes slower. When I first started playing with Force in Manaless I got all sorts of surprised looks and blow-outs in play, but now the experienced guys almost expect me to play it, and play out their hate deliberately with counter back-up, or aim discard at me first.
With a fast deck like LED-dredge, this might effectively buy us more time. Could be interesting...

I think I'll have to test a Force version of LED this week.

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I'm not 100% sure I understand you here. I can say that I don't post untested lists. And aside from the two changes mentioned above in wanting one more threat, and one more bounce(possibly an ETruth to avoid that double Leyline/Chalice situation) the deck ran perfectly. I don't want Force main, and never have less than 18 U cards post board. With the LED version, you keep all the speed post. You just lose some redundancy. So your opponent can't afford to slow-roll hate. And if they do, it just makes your Therapys better. I also still have the ability to go all-in with Petals and Dread vs decks that have no relevant interaction and/or no hate before turn two. Force actually gives me the ability to slow-roll. Forcing(no pun) the enemy to expend resources to stop me, while I effectively lose nothing to counter them while continuing my gameplan uninterrupted. I even had a game where I slow dredged vs DnT with both Force and Bthrough in hand until I found a Therapy for Priest. Yes, you can get blown out but Vial or Cavern there. But he had neither at that point. And I would have just acted earlier if he had, and should have gotten enough on board to make Priest irrelevant. Only possible issue there is the reduced threats I have post board, and the potential Surgical some awful DnT players run.

Heys, i'm new to legacy and i started investing and playing recently (i used to play modern and standard then i stopped and started playing legacy) and i''m building Dredge with lion's eye diamond (i bought one now i need 3).
This is my current build:

Mainboard:

1x flame-kin zealot
4x golgari grave-troll
4x stinkweed imp
3x golgari thug
3x putrid imp
4x bridge from below
3x breakthrough
4x cabal therapy
4x careful study
2x dread return
4x faithless looting
4x cephalic coliseum
4x city of brass
4x gemstone mine
4x lion's eye diamond

SD

3x disfigure
1x elesh norn
3x firestorm
1x ashen rider
1x iona
4x nature's claim
2x natural state

I'm not sure if it's worth but i'm pondering to increase in mainboard to 13/14 lands (and replace city of brass with mana confluence) and replace in sideboard 2 natural state and 2 disfigure with 4 abrupt decay and 1 disifigure with a firestorm.
What do you guys think? Any advice?

PS: Sorry for my bad english, i'm portuguese

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Francisco Pires

Heys, i'm new to legacy and i started investing and playing recently (i used to play modern and standard then i stopped and started playing legacy) and i''m building Dredge with lion's eye diamond (i bought one now i need 3).
This is my current build:

Mainboard:

1x flame-kin zealot
4x golgari grave-troll
4x stinkweed imp
3x golgari thug
3x putrid imp
4x bridge from below
3x breakthrough
4x cabal therapy
4x careful study
2x dread return
4x faithless looting
4x cephalic coliseum
4x city of brass
4x gemstone mine
4x lion's eye diamond

SD

3x disfigure
1x elesh norn
3x firestorm
1x ashen rider
1x iona
4x nature's claim
2x natural state

I'm not sure if it's worth but i'm pondering to increase in mainboard to 13/14 lands (and replace city of brass with mana confluence) and replace in sideboard 2 natural state and 2 disfigure with 4 abrupt decay and 1 disifigure with a firestorm.
What do you guys think? Any advice?

PS: Sorry for my bad english, i'm portuguese

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13 land is a good start as I've never been a fan of 12, we need atleast one land prefebly two in our opening hands. Death and taxes can port your city's which can be some what annoying, makes sense to invest in the confluences. As far as the board goes, I like the idea of natural state. Recently Eldrazi has been running leyline of the void and depending on your meta you may want to take this into consideration when deciding on anti-hate. Assuming they hit chalice for one echoing truth may be our best out to Leyline.I guess disfigure is for containment priest?Natures claim is good in a meta that's not full of chalice otherwise I would certainly run the petals (good against combo) and abrupt decay. Best advice imho is to keep fast hands on the draw (assuming the won game one) and make them show you the hate, remember, we can always loot into our anti-hate. Side note,what do you do with this hand on the play against an unknown opponent: mana confluence, c.coliseum, pimp,led,ichy, breakthrough and faithless looting?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimmythegreek

13 land is a good start as I've never been a fan of 12, we need atleast one land prefebly two in our opening hands. Death and taxes can port your city's which can be some what annoying, makes sense to invest in the confluences. As far as the board goes, I like the idea of natural state. Recently Eldrazi has been running leyline of the void and depending on your meta you may want to take this into consideration when deciding on anti-hate. Assuming they hit chalice for one echoing truth may be our best out to Leyline.I guess disfigure is for containment priest?Natures claim is good in a meta that's not full of chalice otherwise I would certainly run the petals (good against combo) and abrupt decay. Best advice imho is to keep fast hands on the draw (assuming the won game one) and make them show you the hate, remember, we can always loot into our anti-hate. Side note,what do you do with this hand on the play against an unknown opponent: mana confluence, c.coliseum, pimp,led,ichy, breakthrough and faithless looting?

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I have disfigure in sideboard to fight deathrite shaman and other annoying creatures.
Actually in my lgs there isn't a lot of eldrazi, it only appears sometimes (most people have a lot of decks).
I'm pondering to put abrupt decay in sideboard because, there's a lot of annoying decks with counter spells and sometimes they play a hate and have a hand full of counters to protect it and with abrupt decay, i can destroy it.
In my lgs there are 1 or 2 miracles and sometimes they play hate and if i can't destroy, in the following turn they can make counterblance + sensei's divining top which is game over.
In my lgs there isn't a lot of combo, only 1 or 2 (ANT and sneak and show) .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimmythegreek

Side note,what do you do with this hand on the play against an unknown opponent: mana confluence, c.coliseum, pimp,led,ichy, breakthrough and faithless looting?

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I would probably try to resolve a imp (to see if the oponnent has force of will) and then i play the lion's eye diamond and pass the turn, then in my turn i would try to resolve faithless looting and breaktrough and flashback faihtless looting to search for a dredgers (if i'm lucky to draw one at the start of my turn, i will probably go off).

Cheers Parcher

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Parcher

I'm not 100% sure I understand you here. I can say that I don't post untested lists. And aside from the two changes mentioned above in wanting one more threat, and one more bounce(possibly an ETruth to avoid that double Leyline/Chalice situation) the deck ran perfectly. I don't want Force main, and never have less than 18 U cards post board. With the LED version, you keep all the speed post. You just lose some redundancy....

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Not running Force main I can understand, totally, this was my main issue when testing the deck with FOW back when PA was first released.
Keeping the LED/Speed in there post board is something I hadn't tried first time around.

When you side out for Force and Chain (some 6 to 7 cards), what are you usually taking out?
And did you find this was a routine change, or were you flexible here, opponent/hate dependent?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slave

Cheers Parcher

Not running Force main I can understand, totally, this was my main issue when testing the deck with FOW back when PA was first released.
Keeping the LED/Speed in there post board is something I hadn't tried first time around.

When you side out for Force and Chain (some 6 to 7 cards), what are you usually taking out?
And did you find this was a routine change, or were you flexible here, opponent/hate dependent?

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There's no proper way I can answer this directly. Except to say there is no routine change. For instance, vs DnT, on the play, I board in the Petals and DR package, cutting Amalgams, PImps, and an Ichorid. The odds of their being able to drop RiP or Priest before you can get enough on board to win, and/or discard those is slim. And two Ichorids guarantees that if they have a miracle Extraction on Narco, you're still in it. On the draw I board in just the Forces. You still have an excellent chance of going off with all your draw and LED before they can land hate. But you have Force as backup if not. And you have both the extra card of playing second, plus the amazing mulligan power of Dredge to insure one of those happens. In this case I board out 2 PImps, 1 Ichorid, and 1 City. I don't want to board out any more threats just in case of Extraction. I don't want to board a dredger when I have no anti hate, and HAVE to chain dredge. And while normally I would be hesitant to board out a land vs a prison deck, they can't afford to Waste you on turn 2 due to the cost of their hate. Only problem there is on a 1-lander, where they drop Thalia T2, and have hate T3, and you don't have Force or go off T1.

And that's just a small slice of one matchup. Too many other possibilities to reasonably go over.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Parcher

There's no proper way I can answer this directly. Except to say there is no routine change. ....

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Thanks for explaining.

I took the deck out last night, with the Force/Vapor side, went 2-3.
I used a very similar list to yours Parcher, only I dropped the 2 Pimps for another PA and a single DR. My side was a little different, running;
2 Lotus Petal, 1 Dread Return, 3 Firestorm, 1 Ashen Rider, 2 Whirlpool Drake, 4 FOW, 2 Chain of Vapor,
I thought to include Drake over other targets simply because it's blue for FOW. I'll tweak this in future but I only had minutes last night to grab something, and I couldn't find my River Kelpie's.
Won: Burn, Miracles 2-0 Lost: UR-Sneak/Show, UB-Reanimator 0-2, Aggro-Eldrazi
My losses weren't horrible misplays or anything, just natural variance, so mulligans to small hands, having lots of terrible dredges etc.. I did see a swag of extraction too which didn't help. Show and Tell made an appearance but Ashen Rider didn't. Eldrazi was a slow grindy match and I just didn't have/draw an answer once the inevitable LotV dropped.

I like Force. I didn't keep notes last night, but I did manage to counter at least 2 hate cards that I can remember.
Prized Amalgam was useful. Still not completely sold against really fast opponents like fast combo and storm, but against control decks it's very serviceable. I'll roll with this blue version for a while and see where it leads.


Memory's Journey
What is the current train of thought on this card?
Being blue is useful, but is it much use against the fast combo decks that use their yard? I guess what I asking is, how often are you siding it in, and which cards are you trying to stop?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slave

Thanks for explaining.

I took the deck out last night, with the Force/Vapor side, went 2-3.
I used a very similar list to yours Parcher, only I dropped the 2 Pimps for another PA and a single DR. My side was a little different, running;
2 Lotus Petal, 1 Dread Return, 3 Firestorm, 1 Ashen Rider, 2 Whirlpool Drake, 4 FOW, 2 Chain of Vapor,
I thought to include Drake over other targets simply because it's blue for FOW. I'll tweak this in future but I only had minutes last night to grab something, and I couldn't find my River Kelpie's.
Won: Burn, Miracles 2-0 Lost: UR-Sneak/Show, UB-Reanimator 0-2, Aggro-Eldrazi
My losses weren't horrible misplays or anything, just natural variance, so mulligans to small hands, having lots of terrible dredges etc.. I did see a swag of extraction too which didn't help. Show and Tell made an appearance but Ashen Rider didn't. Eldrazi was a slow grindy match and I just didn't have/draw an answer once the inevitable LotV dropped.

I like Force. I didn't keep notes last night, but I did manage to counter at least 2 hate cards that I can remember.
Prized Amalgam was useful. Still not completely sold against really fast opponents like fast combo and storm, but against control decks it's very serviceable. I'll roll with this blue version for a while and see where it leads.


Memory's Journey
What is the current train of thought on this card?
Being blue is useful, but is it much use against the fast combo decks that use their yard? I guess what I asking is, how often are you siding it in, and which cards are you trying to stop?

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I would not drop the PImps.They are too important to consistency vs Delver decks. I don't think there are matchups that I bring in the DR package along with FoW. So I don't believe that a U target is needed. Amalgam is worse than Ichorid, which is why I run only two. He gets boarded out when I bring in the DR package. But vs something like Reanimator, where you can't rely only on speed, and have to bring in FoW, he is slow. Not much I can do about that. I cut the Journey for an ETruth. Leyline must be answered. And while Journey is excellent with this configuration against Surgical, it is not worth it vs other GY decks. With your having 3 Amalgam, and the two DR, I don't see Surgical being an issue anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Parcher

I would not drop the PImps.They are too important to consistency vs Delver decks. I don't think there are matchups that I bring in the DR package along with FoW. So I don't believe that a U target is needed.

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Yeah I think you're right on both counts. I did miss the Pimps....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Parcher

Amalgam is worse than Ichorid, which is why I run only two. He gets boarded out when I bring in the DR package.

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My thoughts too. RE: Blue DR target, I thought I'd give it a go, I usually swing with Ashen Rider or Iona.

PA really doesn't help our speed at all, but it does add a little inevitability, and it does give us game against extraction.
After playing with this list above, I agree 3 PA is too many. Before I used the deck out in the wild, I was contemplating using the PA's & Force from the side, but it's not easy fitting in everything I would like to.

RE: Leyline of the Void and that horrible Eldrazi deck;
Given that Chalice usually negates Claims, and Thorn of Amethyst makes any plays problematic, I'm not sure we have too many decent options for removal. I've never been a big fan of Chain of Vapor against LotV, even if we might have Force in the deck. The evoke creatures are all I'm coming up with.

Well the Evoke creatures aren't U, so they pair poorly with Force. And there are a few matchups that you want both. In those, the tempo gained from the one mana Chain makes it the best solution. The odds of Loam or Eldrazi opening with both Chalice and Leyline don't make it worth running more cards to dodge both. And those decks have to mull to Leyline since they can't interact meaningfully without either of those. And I can't count how many times I've beaten T1 Chalice without Leyline.

Dipping my toe in the dredge pool...I normally jam TES but wanted to switch things up at our latest FNM for s&gs. From my reading ITT there's certainly components to the build I'm using that others probably aren't fans of but at least for the first time actually playing the deck it felt fine/matched my style of deck pretty well. Any hiccups I can honestly attribute to my own inexperience with the deck I think and boarding 'notes' are purely a vague recollection of what I did (and probably very wrong at that).

MB
1x FKZ
4x GGT
4x Thug
1x Gris
3x Ichorid
4x Narco
3x PImp
4x Stinky
3x Breakthrough
4x Therapy
3x Careful Study
2x DReturn
4x F Looting
4x LED
4x Bridge
4x Cephalid Col
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Mana Conf

SB
1x Ashen Rider
1x Iona
1x Grudge
3x Chain of Vapor
2x Firestorm
3x Nature's Claim
2x Lotus Petal
2x Leyline of the Void


R1 - Burn
G1 Lose the die roll. I rarely complain about 'variance' but I have to imagine that hitting 0 narcos, 1 ichorid and 1 therapy within the first few turns of dredging was just someone pooping on my evening. I was feeling good opening with a couple lands, faithless, dredgers and then drawing an LED off the looting. By the time I started to get much momentum he just needed anything besides back to back land draws to close the game. (Swap Iona for Gris)
G2 On a mull to 5 (opening hands lacking dredgers/enablers) that has coliseum, thug, study and something like a return and therapy. This was probably a bad keep with me putting too much reliance on the scry to give some more power. I scry a narco to the bottom and, long story short, have too much of a mismatch in what I'm able to start dredging and can't beat his solid blend of creature pressure and PoP into blast.

R2 - Burn
G1 Win the die roll. Get off to a much better start and end up returning Gris T2/3 flipping the rest of the deck into FKZ (Swap Iowa for Gris)
G2 Slightly slower start with just an opening study into natural dredge for a turn or turn building a small amount of pressure through a single Ichorid and a handful of zombies (off a single bridge). Critical turn is when I know his hand from a therapy the turn prior (he's stuck on one land) and I'd turned over two other bridges that last turn. He draws a bolt to kill his swiftspear sniping the bridges and I'm not able to find Iona the next turn (a FKZ would have been a few points short of lethal).
G3 Spoiler alert, T3 Iona against burn is good. Opponent isn't salty but ends up dropping and signing the match off as 2-0.

R3 - Oops all Spells
G1 Win the die roll. No clue what my opponent is playing (I knew the last two were burn players) but when we draw our opening hands (keeping a solid 6 in my case) I see him shuffling/organizing his hand and mouthing out counting. I see the kid around playing but nothing sticks out so I figure he's either newly picking up storm or on a belcher-type deck. I play mine, PImp, then pass and pray. He draws, does a bit of silent counting again then passes. I pitch two GGT on his end step, flip a narco and bridge in the draw dredge, pitch the trolls again and looting into some more gas. I figure based on his opening & first turn he has to be close to a kill so I exchange narco for a pair of zombies and a therapy. I sit for a minute trying to deduce his hand and decide to name Manamorphose. I hit and it looks like he's just a hermit from the kill. He gets two redraws the next turn but doesn't find anything of consequence. FKZ gets the job done next turn. (Boarding here was a total 'wtf is life'. I honestly can't recall if all these lists are more on the belcher transformation or not so I bring in the petals, Iona, some mix of claim/grudge/vapor, leylines and drop out Gris, a thug and then some mix of other draw outlets. I want to think a 1/2 split in either direction of breakthough and study)
G2 I keep a six (scry a land to the bottom) and he keeps a pretty quick 7 so I assume I'm just dead. He probes, cycles wraith and then passes...deal. I looting, LED the looting and already have a decent yard building up. I believe it was T2 I flip some narcos; flashback a therapy on manamorphose again, hit and see he's got a slight clunker but a pact of negation. I end up taking the pact the next turn after slapping him with an ichorid and we end up winning off the back of sufficient ichorid and zombie beats.

R4 - Reanimator
G1 Win the die roll and promptly mull to 6 (seems to be the theme for the night). Mine, study, toss some dredgers and play out LED which leaves a breakthrough, coliseum and a confluence (I think) in hand. Opponent Thoughtseizes leaving me a little under-powered in hand. Turns out that doesn't matter when you flip over looting and end up just getting to go a little nuts. He dazes a therapy which is great since I know it's setting him back and I still get my zombies...and have another therapy to flashback anyhow. I don't tag the right reanimation spell (named reanimate) but by dazing he has no possible draws to get something into play his next turn and assuming I don't forget both Ichorids in the yard I can just win the next turn with FKZ. He draws, ponders, players a petal and passes...then dies. (similar to the Oops match of just not knowing 100% what I did or didn't want. Gris comes out for Rider and a few chains, petals & leylines come in for some studies/breakthroughs).
G2 I think I actually got to keep a full 7 here, open with a Leyline (he just smiles and shakes his head) and get off to a steady start - nothing too broken but have a board of 5-6 zombies after a few turns thanks to an Ichorid and narco. At one point he topdecks an ETruth then shows in a Gris. I take 7, and am able to rebuild a small amount but my only line is to get through any counter magic he has and return FKZ (damage/lifelink just breaks even with him dead in a swing). He FoWs the first return and dazes the second which I pay for. He draws down to 18...then 11...then 4. Even though at this point he's dead the next turn unless he has another S&T, Elesh and a petal he shows a gigantic hand of nothing but black cards for the combo (thank you leyline).

Finish the night in 4th for some store credit, crappy prize packs (although opened an Amalgam interestingly enough) and escape just before the hordes descend upon the store for prerelease. Missing a few decks but the field from what I remember was:

• Eldrazi
• MUD
• Dredge (us)
• Reanimator
• Oops
• Burn x2
• Mentor Miracles
• Grixis Delver
• Team America
• BUG Still